Consultant 'refused abortion plea'

Anita Blow

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Only because they are reported differently here to how they are reported in the UK, US and most of Europe. Also doesn't take adverse maternal health outcomes into account.

Ireland uses the International Statistical Classification of Diseases, Injuries and Causes of Death, a WHO framework, in classifying child/infant mortality, as does the US, UK and I'd imagine most of Europe.

Stark

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=21361 . Maternal deaths underreported by a factor of 2.

Gatling

Stark wrote: »

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=21361 . Maternal deaths underreported by a factor of 2.

Deaths from cancer ,suicide ,car accident ,lung diseases,
Most were not direct causes from child birth or miscarriage complications

Gatling

Stark wrote: »

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=21361 . Maternal deaths underreported by a factor of 2.

Deaths from cancer ,suicide ,car accident ,lung diseases,
Most were not direct causes from child birth or miscarriage complications

Stark

But are included in statistics for maternal deaths in other countries. So Ireland can't claim it has the best system in the world when it's using different criteria for reporting.

homerjay2005

Stark wrote: »

But are included in statistics for maternal deaths in other countries. So Ireland can't claim it has the best system in the world when it's using different criteria for reporting.

ye can twist the stats what ever way you want, even including what you say is missing, its still the best. there is no reason to argue otherwise, cases like Savita happen one in a generation.

now compare that to her own country.

eireannBEAR

i am totally against abortion on demand and for people at risk of suicide,i am not sexist or catholic.
i just dont agree with it. it offends me full stop.

now in saying that have i no problem with terminations where the mothers life is at risk.

we need to invest our money in better sex education and making the pill a mainstay in mens wallets and womens handbags.

abortion on selfish grounds go against human nature it amazes me that people can fight for the right to abort their own children.

in my case i was a drugs addict i was in no position to get a girl pregnant but sending my gf to england never once entered my mind i will admit i cost the tax payer 2 years of welfare but now i have a good job,amazing son and perspective in life. if we can educated people and make them understand the joys of parent hood they will utterly oppose abortion.

somen women tend to think fathers have no right on this issue that they dont have to live with it.
well i had to give up everything partying,alone time,money and even SLEEP! but you know what when i look at my son i dont miss it for a second!

i wish people understood what they were giving up...

Gatling

Child mortality rates are pretty damn good here ,
What ever way you calculate it ,
Natural causes
Accidents
Suicide
Just show there's a lot of things out maternity services have no control over

lynski

My problem with this case, and with Irish law and or medical practice, is that if a pregnant woman presents to hospital miscarrying and there is no chance that the baby will survive, at 5 wks or 35 wks, then she should be treated humanely. Being left in agony - and no amount of pain relief except epidural takes the pain of labor away - for 3 hrs or 3 days when you do not want to be is not humane.
All women should be treated with respect and have the first say on their care; if a medical professional recommends a different route for reasons of better health they should take the advise or not if they want to. Women's bodies should be firstly our own; even when pregnant.
This is not an issue of abortion or right to life, this baby, much wanted, was dead or dying, there was no way she could survive, her mother should have been allowed to choose to end her physical and mental torture. This is standard medical practice the world over for animals never mind humans.
Catholic/irish/hindu/rastafarian should not come into it.

homerjay2005

is there any indication/evidence yet which confirms that having the abortion earlier would definitely have saved her life?

for me, had they treated the infection 3 days earlier may have saved her, and even if she had received the termination, this issue would still needed to be addressed.

the failure here so far looks like is a medical one and not one due to laws/church. her condition/infection still needed to be treated.

eireannBEAR

lynski wrote: »

My problem with this case, and with Irish law and or medical practice, is that if a pregnant woman presents to hospital miscarrying and there is no chance that the baby will survive, at 5 wks or 35 wks, then she should be treated humanely. Being left in agony - and no amount of pain relief except epidural takes the pain of labor away - for 3 hrs or 3 days when you do not want to be is not humane.
All women should be treated with respect and have the first say on their care; if a medical professional recommends a different route for reasons of better health they should take the advise or not if they want to. Women's bodies should be firstly our own; even when pregnant.
This is not an issue of abortion or right to life, this baby, much wanted, was dead or dying, there was no way she could survive, her mother should have been allowed to choose to end her physical and mental torture. This is standard medical practice the world over for animals never mind humans.
Catholic/irish/hindu/rastafarian should not come into it.

most of ireland agree with this...what scares a lot of us is this case seems to be leading up to abortion on demand if the government take out the suicide loop hole every one will be happy...excluding a tiny minority of pro life/choicers!

Morag

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/surgeon-denies-litany-of-errors-in-treatment-of-mum-who-died-28816782.html

There is an inquest into another woman's maternal death this week.

Morag

eireannBEAR wrote: »

most of ireland agree with this...what scares a lot of us is this case seems to be leading up to abortion on demand if the government take out the suicide loop hole every one will be happy...excluding a tiny minority of pro life/choicers!

What loop hole?
How can you say there is a loop hole in the proposed legislation which the government has not even published yet?

mikom

Gatling wrote: »

Child mortality rates are pretty damn good here ,
What ever way you calculate it ,

I wouldn't like to be using Praveen Halappanavars calculator.
Is there a button to add a wife mortality to a child mortality on it, do ya think?

Morag

eireannBEAR wrote: »

i am totally against abortion on demand and for people at risk of suicide,i am not sexist or catholic.
i just dont agree with it. it offends me full stop.

now in saying that have i no problem with terminations where the mothers life is at risk.

What about women's health?

Why should women like Michele Harte have to travel for an abortion?

eireannBEAR wrote: »

we need to invest our money in better sex education and making the pill a mainstay in mens wallets and womens handbags.

We do need better sex ed and ideally free contraception but no contraception is 100%

eireannBEAR wrote: »

abortion on selfish grounds go against human nature it amazes me that people can fight for the right to abort their own children.

Because they want to live, they want to remain healthy, they do not want to be parents.

eireannBEAR wrote: »

in my case i was a drugs addict i was in no position to get a girl pregnant but sending my gf to england never once entered my mind i will admit i cost the tax payer 2 years of welfare but now i have a good job,amazing son and perspective in life. if we can educated people and make them understand the joys of parent hood they will utterly oppose abortion.

somen women tend to think fathers have no right on this issue that they dont have to live with it.
well i had to give up everything partying,alone time,money and even SLEEP! but you know what when i look at my son i dont miss it for a second!

i wish people understood what they were giving up...

I am glad your child brought joy and focus to your life, but that is not the case for everyone.

I have two kids, it would be dangerous to my mental health to try and have any more due to how sever the depression is which develops when I am pregnant and give birth. If I found I was pregnant again I would have to find the resources to travel to the UK for an abortion, I know what I would be giving up and I know the cost if I don't.

eireannBEAR

Morag wrote: »

What about women's health?

Why should women like Michele Harte have to travel for an abortion?



We do need better sex ed and ideally free contraception but no contraception is 100%



Because they want to live, they want to remain healthy, they do not want to be parents.




I am glad your child brought joy and focus to your life, but that is not the case for everyone.

I have two kids, it would be dangerous to my mental health to try and have any more due to how sever the depression is which develops when I am pregnant and give birth. If I found I was pregnant again I would have to find the resources to travel to the UK for an abortion, I know what I would be giving up and I know the cost if I don't.

i would like to think as a responsible adult who already has two children that you might take more precautions when it comes to having another especially as you have health problems that you are already aware of.

if that were to befall you and you resorted to abortion you should feel very ashamed indeed TBH. if you feel this way.. you have many options such as the pill,bar or coil etc,

mikom

eireannBEAR wrote: »

i am totally against abortion on demand and for people at risk of suicide,i am not sexist or catholic.
i just dont agree with it. it offends me full stop.

Oh well, if you are offended then that's a different story.......

Morag

eireannBEAR wrote: »

i would like to think as a responsible adult who already has two children that you might take more precautions when it comes to having another especially as you have health problems that you are already aware of.

if that were to befall you and you resorted to abortion you should feel very ashamed indeed TBH. if you feel this way.. you have many options such as the pill,bar or coil etc,

I am already using the best contraceptive there is, what makes you think I am not and that I am ignorant of my contraceptive options?

But there there is always a risk there is no contraceptive which is 100%.

If I was to become pregnant again despite mine and my drs very best efforts then I would not consider it shameful to what is best for my health and so that I can look after my exsisting children.

Ash.J.Williams

Kenny Gofuk wrote: »

Consultant 'refused abortion plea'

08 April 2013
A consultant has been accused of refusing an Indian woman's demands for an abortion as she miscarried on the grounds that it is "a Catholic country".

While I have been following this story, I have had mixed feelings regarding the husband in question - however, don't get me wrong I'm extremely sorry for his loss.

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the feeling he is now trying to cash in on this bigtime? He has got a lot of front!
I'm sorry, but if the above statement is true, why was it that they did not travel to the UK for this to happen?

Excuse my ignorance if you feel I have got the wrong end of this matter!

I hope he does cash in and gets well paid too, State ineptitude killed his f**ing wife!

eireannBEAR

Morag wrote: »

I am already using the best contraceptive there is, what makes you think I am not and that I am ignorant of my contraceptive options?

But there there is always a risk there is no contraceptive which is 100%.

If I was to become pregnant again despite mine and my drs very best efforts then I would not consider it shameful to what is best for my health and so that I can look after my exsisting children.

have you considered having your tubes tide?

I for one will be getting the snip when the time calls for it.

morag we will not change each others mind on the subject and i dont think for a second that your a monster or bad person for your views as im sure i have many that would offend you also.

so we will agree to disagree.

Morag

eireannBEAR wrote: »

have you considered having your tubes tide?

Very hard to do in this 'catholic' country even with me not being catholic and even with that I know two women who still went on to have kids after they had their tubes clamped.

But thankfully the contraceptive I am using is actually rated better then getting my tubes tied, but it is still not 100% and if anything goes wrong and I do end up pregnant again I have resigned myself to having to travel for an abortion.

Many women have abortion plans or money put aside for a 'rainy day' if they can afford it.

eireannBEAR wrote: »

I for one will be getting the snip when the time calls for it.

Good for you, it's an easier op then the one for women and men should take responsibility for their own fertility.

eireannBEAR wrote: »

morag we will not change each others mind on the subject and i dont think for a second that your a monster or bad person for your views as im sure i have many that would offend you also.

so we will agree to disagree.

Given my circumstances should I have to travel to the UK?

mikom

eireannBEAR wrote: »

I for one will be getting the snip when the time calls for it.

Having the choice to do this is good, isn't it.

Beware though.
Getting the snip could offend some people.

eireannBEAR

do what you want morag.

Morag

eireannBEAR wrote: »

do what you want morag.

I'd like to, I want to be able to have the healthcare options I may need available to me here in my own country.

mikom

eireannBEAR wrote: »

do what you want morag.

That choice is not there.

eireannBEAR

mikom wrote: »

That choice is not there.

very lazy attempt at trolling my friend.

mikom

eireannBEAR wrote: »

very lazy attempt at trolling my friend.

You know where the report button is.

You have the choice to push it, if you wish............ pal.

ibarelycare

eireannBEAR wrote: »

i would like to think as a responsible adult who already has two children that you might take more precautions when it comes to having another especially as you have health problems that you are already aware of.

,

This is a bit hypocritical coming from someone who admitted to accidentally getting his girlfriend pregnant?

rainbow kirby

eireannBEAR wrote: »

have you considered having your tubes tide?

Have you any idea how difficult it is to get this done in this country? Gynaes are extremely reluctant to do it unless women are well into their late 30s with large families.

eireannBEAR

mikom wrote: »

You know where the report button is.

You have the choice to push it, if you wish............ pal.

im afraid you dont quite offend me enough.

wolfpawnat

I don't suppose we could go back to posting about the subject of this thread in particular and leave the overall abortion debate to the several other threads dedicated to them on other forums?


Tried Google news there. Very little new information on the inquiry. Anything new revealed this morning?

john.han

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I don't suppose we could go back to posting about the subject of this thread in particular and leave the overall abortion debate to the several other threads dedicated to them on other forums?


Tried Google news there. Very little new information on the inquiry. Anything new revealed this morning?

Despite yesterday denying any retrospecive entries in the medical notes, the hospital/hse now admit 8 retrospective entries.

wolfpawnat

john.han wrote: »

Despite yesterday denying any retrospecive entries in the medical notes, the hospital/hse now admit 8 retrospective entries.

Ah retrospect! We screwed up, so lets add it in now!:rolleyes:

In any other field to fiddle with official notes like that would mean severe consequences for all involved. I would love to know how many thousands of cases have been fiddled with. Because that is what is it, tampering.

eireannBEAR

wow guys if only you people would voice your support in public,maybe you would have your wish of an abortion on demand republic.

if you really want this you must get off your couches. and speak up because excluding yahoo and internet forums the vast majority want an abortion free state.

so i ask you do you want justice for savita or abortion on demand???

Nodin

eireannBEAR wrote: »

wow guys if only you people would voice your support in public,maybe you would have your wish of an abortion on demand republic.

if you really want this you must get off your couches. and speak up because excluding yahoo and internet forums the vast majority want an abortion free state.

so i ask you do you want justice for savita or abortion on demand???

They do? Far as I knew they'd voted for abortion in limited circumstances.

Seachmall

eireannBEAR wrote: »

now in saying that have i no problem with terminations where the mothers life is at risk.

On what basis do you value the mother's life over the child's?

You can't tell me they're both equal until the mother is at risk.

abortion on selfish grounds go against human nature it amazes me that people can fight for the right to abort their own children.

Killing someone else to save your own life is the pinnacle of selfishness.

Morag

eireannBEAR wrote: »

wow guys if only you people would voice your support in public,maybe you would have your wish of an abortion on demand republic.

People have been.
http://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/

eireannBEAR wrote: »

if you really want this you must get off your couches. and speak up because excluding yahoo and internet forums the vast majority want an abortion free state.

Being pro choice and pro abortion rights on grounds of health and life of women has been made very taboo in this country by extreme pro life groups.

The recent polls show that the majority of Irish people agree with abortion to safe guard the health and life of women and in cases of rape, incest and fatal fetal abnormalities.

eireannBEAR wrote: »

so i ask you do you want justice for savita or abortion on demand???

What makes you think those two things are opposed and that a person would have to choose one over the other?

rainbow kirby

eireannBEAR wrote: »

so i ask you do you want justice for savita or abortion on demand???

Honestly? Both.

Stark

eireannBEAR wrote: »

in my case i was a drugs addict i was in no position to get a girl pregnant but sending my gf to england never once entered my mind i will admit i cost the tax payer 2 years of welfare but now i have a good job,amazing son and perspective in life. if we can educated people and make them understand the joys of parent hood they will utterly oppose abortion.

somen women tend to think fathers have no right on this issue that they dont have to live with it.
well i had to give up everything partying,alone time,money and even SLEEP! but you know what when i look at my son i dont miss it for a second!

i wish people understood what they were giving up...

Same arguments could be used against contraception. The State will pick up the tab for a couple of years. You don't know what you're missing out on and all that. But it's not for other people to choose when people become parents.

homerjay2005

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I hope he does cash in and gets well paid too, State ineptitude killed his f**ing wife!

thats some statement to make. have you access to the report and/or inquest that none of us have seen?

right now, even the husband has said he does not know how she died. to say somebody killed her, is f8cking insane to be honest and just shows how much people have been caught up in this case since that original misleading headlines was printed.

people should relax a while until the inquest delivers a verdict. i will repeat the question i asked earlier, is there any evidence yet to suggest that her abortion being done earlier, would 100% have saved her life as this appears to not have been clarifed yet...maybe it will in the coming days.

Ash.J.Williams

homerjay2005 wrote: »

thats some statement to make. have you access to the report and/or inquest that none of us have seen?

right now, even the husband has said he does not know how she died. to say somebody killed her, is f8cking insane to be honest and just shows how much people have been caught up in this case since that original misleading headlines was printed.

people should relax a while until the inquest delivers a verdict. i will repeat the question i asked earlier, is there any evidence yet to suggest that her abortion being done earlier, would 100% have saved her life as this appears to not have been clarifed yet...maybe it will in the coming days.

I didn't mention abortion

HondaSami

Morag wrote: »

Very hard to do in this 'catholic' country even with me not being catholic and even with that I know two women who still went on to have kids after they had their tubes clamped.

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Have you any idea how difficult it is to get this done in this country? Gynaes are extremely reluctant to do it unless women are well into their late 30s with large families.

I never knew this was a problem in Ireland. i know several women who had their tubes tied,some over twenty yrs ago and these women were only late 20's early 30's.
My sister had it done when she was 29yrs after her 4th child was born but the surgeon did want to meet with her and her husband together to discuss it first but he did it no problem.

Timistry

I have been following this case with much interest and most of all, disgust. Luckily my mind does not venture into the dark depravity that is this money grabbing theory. The story is far worse than the perceived bandwagon which he apparently jumped on. If I was in his position and money permitting I would have been looking at all legal avenues including the european court of human rights.

Since the" its a catholic country" quote has been confirmed and talk of a paper trail coverup of sorts has surfaced you have to wonder WTF is going on behind the scenes in this country. The catholic churches roots have weaved their way into the very fabric of the irish health and educational systems and indeed the social construct. The fact that people are still staunchly anti abortion in any circumstances after this aberration is frankly shocking. People would have their dog looked after better than this.

And alas, Im unfortunately convinced that NOTHING will come of this. There will be no policy changes, no change of the law or legislation re the x case, no one will step down (in Ireland would would have to shoot someone in the face to do this). I hope he takes the HSE and the whole system to the cleaners, not for monetary gain but to bring shame and force change upon the HSE

wolfpawnat

homerjay2005 wrote: »

thats some statement to make. have you access to the report and/or inquest that none of us have seen?

right now, even the husband has said he does not know how she died. to say somebody killed her, is f8cking insane to be honest and just shows how much people have been caught up in this case since that original misleading headlines was printed.

people should relax a while until the inquest delivers a verdict. i will repeat the question i asked earlier, is there any evidence yet to suggest that her abortion being done earlier, would 100% have saved her life as this appears to not have been clarifed yet...maybe it will in the coming days.

Though I do believe judgement on the matter should wait until after the inquiry, that poster is correct. It has been revealed that yes, the hospital did do blood tests, found she seemingly presented with broader range anti-biotic resistant strain of e-coli infection, and somehow through lack of communication, the test results were not read and the infection grew leading to her deteriorating state and resulting death.

Would an abortion have guaranteed her life? No, anyone with sepsis can remain ill or perhaps in some rarer cases even more ill after a termination of pregnancy if they have infection. But the case now seems to hinge more on the whole "why did no one read the test findings" argument since that appears to be what killed her. If she had had the correct anti-biotics, they would have killed the foetus and she would have had an abortion via life saving drugs that would have increased her survival chances exponentially, though still not guaranteeing her survival.

homerjay2005

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I didn't mention abortion

i never said you did, so stop deflecting and answer where you came up with this accusation?

are you expecting criminal/manslaughter charges to be brought here so, seen as you believe she was killed?

wolfpawnat

HondaSami wrote: »

I never knew this was a problem in Ireland. i know several women who had their tubes tied,some over twenty yrs ago and these women were only late 20's early 30's.
My sister had it done when she was 29yrs after her 4th child was born but the surgeon did want to meet with her and her husband together to discuss it first but he did it no problem.

And there is a woman I know with 3 kids and is being told she will have to wait until her thirties to get it done. I know a woman who never wants to have children and because she has none, they want her to wait until 37. I believe a lot of this is to do with the doctors. I get that some women may change their minds and regret the surgery, but surgery can be reversed! Or if it cannot, they have the right to freeze some eggs and pop them in if they change their mind.

homerjay2005

wolfpawnat wrote: »

It has been revealed that yes, the hospital did do blood tests, found she seemingly presented with broader range anti-biotic resistant strain of e-coli infection, and somehow through lack of communication, the test results were not read and the infection grew leading to her deteriorating state and resulting death.

Would an abortion have guaranteed her life? No, anyone with sepsis can remain ill or perhaps in some rarer cases even more ill after a termination of pregnancy if they have infection.

for what it is worth, i agree here that failings have been made.

however for most people, this was never, until now about how she died, it was about abortion, the catholic church and a reason to slam the lack of legislation in this country.

WayneMolloy

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Honestly? Both.

You will never get abortion on demand in this country.

drkpower

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Ah retrospect! We screwed up, so lets add it in now!:rolleyes:

In any other field to fiddle with official notes like that would mean severe consequences for all involved. I would love to know how many thousands of cases have been fiddled with. Because that is what is it, tampering.

Retropective notes are extremely common and when identified as such do not represent tampering and are not 'fiddling with the notes'. Particularly where time did not allow for a complete note to be written contemporaneously, writing a retrospective note is considered best practice.

Morag

WayneMolloy wrote: »

You will never get abortion on demand in this country.

I think we will have the abortion pill made legal eventually, it might take 20 years but I think it will happen.