Teacher Placement Queries

Armaghmagic

Hi,

I am doing my PDE in DCU (2 years part time) and am in my 1st year. The day the kids got their Easter holidays I had my second inspection.....typical! Anyway I just want to ask your advice on a couple of strange things that happened.

1. The inspector/tutor ordered my SNA out of the classroom for the duration of the class. Is this normal practice?

2. My designated H.Dip class that day was a double on Friday morning. One of the other teachers came up about 15 minutes into the first class and notified me that my inspector was there. I therefore had to find a teacher to sit in on my class as I spoke to my tutor befpre the second lesson that she had planned to sit in on.Again is this normal as this led the students to become disruptive and they continued this behaviour into the 2nd class that I was being inspected on.

Sorry to ramble but im just worried I will get a low mark which could affect my chances of getting employment in the future.

Thanks in advance for any help!

seavill

Firstly the sna is none of the inspectors business. They were completely out of line and need to be reported for this. The sna has been assigned to a child that needs help for whatever reason. A department inspector would not send a sna out. They are there for a reason. This is disgraceful. I am completely shocked at this.

Your second question. I have seen this happen over the last couple of years in our place and I disagree with the practice anyway don't know about anyone else. The tutor knows when you are free and should work around this. It's not like you are on a full timetable their visit should not disrupt the students learning in any way but as I said I have seen it happen recently

whiteandlight

That is disgraceful, there is no way your sna should have been ordered out of the room. They are there for a specific reason which is absolutely nothing to do with the inspector. I would be making a formal complaint about that and if I was the parent of the child or the co-operating teacher I would be complaining to the college.

The second is poor planning by the college, they should be accommodating your timetabled hours not expecting you to find cover at short notice I would feel

Miss Lockhart

That's absolutely unacceptable. How dare the inspector interfere with the child's education! If it were me I would speak to my principal and ask them to address this with DCU. Mine would be livid. The arrogance! The SNAs I work with would refuse to leave and rightly so. He has no authority to make that decision.

I think how the inspector approached your double class is very unprofessional. How could you possibly be expected to deliver your planned lesson if you were only given half the time? Let alone the disruption to your students.

highly1111

Complete disgrace.

There is NO WAY the SNA should have been ordered out of the room. I agree with the other posters. Report this immediately to your principal and the course head in DCU.

His approach to the double is also a disgrace. (However, I still can't believe that some inspectors let you know in advance when they're going to inspect you - I know the majority where I did my Dip arrived completely unannounced!) But if you knew he was going to come for the double he should have come at the beginning of the first class. Saying that, it is unusual for inspectors to come to doubles as it means that one of the classes would have to be covered (the 2nd) - that said, the normal class teacher should be around to take over and should be on site at all times.

Miss Lockhart

highly1111 wrote: »

Complete disgrace.

There is NO WAY the SNA should have been ordered out of the room. I agree with the other posters. Report this immediately to your principal and the course head in DCU.

His approach to the double is also a disgrace. (However, I still can't believe that some inspectors let you know in advance when they're going to inspect you - I know the majority where I did my Dip arrived completely unannounced!) But if you knew he was going to come for the double he should have come at the beginning of the first class. Saying that, it is unusual for inspectors to come to doubles as it means that one of the classes would have to be covered (the 2nd) - that said, the normal class teacher should be around to take over and should be on site at all times.

It is the norm for both periods of a double to be inspected where I did my dip and for all the TP students I have been cooperating teacher for. That has included NUIM, UCD, TCD, DCU and Hibernia. None of them took took the teacher out of part of their double for a chat though! Most showed up at the start but a few showed up part the way through the double.

highly1111

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

It is the norm for both periods of a double to be inspected where I did my dip and for all the TP students I have been cooperating teacher for. That has included NUIM, UCD, TCD, DCU and Hibernia. None of them took took the teacher out of part of their double for a chat though! Most showed up at the start but a few showed up part the way through the double.

Fair enough.....I don't remember seeing it at all when I did my dip in UCD - the inspectors always came for the singles. Maybe if it was their only option?? Just my view on it.

Miss Lockhart

highly1111 wrote: »

Fair enough.....I don't remember seeing it at all when I did my dip in UCD - the inspectors always came for the singles. Maybe if it was their only option?? Just my view on it.

It would be pretty silly for them to avoid doubles in a practical subject because they would be missing out on assessing your handling of practical classes. Either way I'd be pretty pissed if I planned a lesson for a double class, practical or not, and then it was ruined by being broken up into a single. That would not be a fair reflection of the lesson I intended at all.

highly1111

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

It would be pretty silly for them to avoid doubles in a practical subject because they would be missing out on assessing your handling of practical classes. Either way I'd be pretty pissed if I planned a lesson for a double class, practical or not, and then it was ruined by being broken up into a single. That would not be a fair reflection of the lesson I intended at all.

Completely agree

evolving_doors

I was class rep a while back for UCD hdip so I came across a fair few ' unorthodox' supervisors.. Here's a few options

1. Tell the principal (or sound them out very tactfully in case they know the supervisor!) it could be a very tricky situation if that student's parents found out that their child was being prevented from participating in the class. Maybe the principal could act as an advocate for you if you are having trouble dealing with UCD.

2. Contact class rep, they can make initial anonymous enquiries on your behalf to professor or the student/staff contact in UCD.They should have quick access to them (we had their personal numbers in my time)...initially you could remain anonymous until yor class rep gets back to you asking if you want to take it further.

3. Try to find out if anyone has the same supervisor in your group.You might find that another pde student had similar experiences but never bothered to say anything.

4. At the end of the day you dont want to risk any negative discrimination towards your TP grade. if you get the impression that the college staff aren't going to be supportive in terms of switching supervisors then you might find yourself stuck with that supervisor! You should have got a sense by now as to how they are going to grade you, so make sure you keep a written record of their observations and discussions after each supervision.

Basically it wouldn't look credible if your supervisor was suggesting a few minor changes you needed to makeand then turn around and fail you in the end.

it's a bit of a judgement call as we dont know how your supervision went in that instance! If it was just that wierd incident but the supervisor said you are doing great then how would you feel about not saying anything? Bit of a moral dilemma there.

Anyhow, tread carefully but act fast... sometimes it's just better to have a complaint registered thru your rep to the ucd staff anyway even if you dont follow through with it

Miss Lockhart

I don't know. I think the duty of care you have to the child with the right to SNA support is very important. I couldn't stand over letting that go. As a cooperating teacher I would expect to be told that information and I would follow up on it without involving my TP student. If you are doing the course in DCU though you may not have a cooperating teacher and may be solely responsible for the class, so it's your responsibility. That's a very hard position to be in though when your grade is at stake.

Armaghmagic

Thanks everyone for your feedback.

I am definitely going to see the vice principal tomorrow and get her take on the situation and take it from there. I will be honest and say its damaged limitation as the inspections didnt really go well in general and this is down to me.

However the point remains that the education of a fair number of my students was dampened due to their assistant being taken out of the room......think its important to note that the SNA is not my assistant but the students!

Also a point was made about being informed of the inspectors arrival. This is not the case, was a completely surprise visit.

I would prefered if she came to either both classes, the first class or none at all that day. Coming to the second is fine, but to take me out of my class to talk to me for 15 minutes is again, affecting the learning of my students by missing out on teaching time with them.

forgetfulme

crazy stuff. Unprofessional of supervisor to interfere with the class and remove an SNA, the SNA has every right to be in the class. I would def suggest to bring this to the attention of DCU and your principal. If anything it will reflect very postively on your professionalism.

Such bad form dragging you out of class in the middle of a double. Really awful stuff, hang in there.

Armaghmagic

So would the overall consensus be to raise the issue of having the SNA taken out of the class but not to mention the tutor coming to meet me during my double lesson?

Miss Lockhart

Armaghmagic wrote: »

So would the overall consensus be to raise the issue of having the SNA taken out of the class but not to mention the tutor coming to meet me during my double lesson?

Do you have a cooperating teacher with main responsibility for that class?

Armaghmagic

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Do you have a cooperating teacher with main responsibility for that class?

Its a tough one because there is a teacher but I little to do with her apart from giving the absentees to put on eportal. But I guess the official answer would be yes!

Miss Lockhart

Armaghmagic wrote: »

Its a tough one because there is a teacher but I little to do with her apart from giving the absentees to put on eportal. But I guess the official answer would be yes!

Ok. In that case she is required to be present and available to take the class so you can't approach the disruption to your double class from the angle of it interfering with the school timetable.

If it were me I would ask my principal or dp to contact DCU regarding the SNA. This goes beyond your supervision as it involved interference with school and indeed department policy and I think most schools would object to this carry on. DCU wont be long in improving the professionalism of their inspectors if they think schools would be reluctant to accommodate their students.

I would raise the issue of disruption of the double with the course coordinator. But that's really a personal call since you know the people involved.

It's a pity you don't have more of a relationship with your cooperating teacher. These are issues they could advise and support you on. Does she teach the class part of the week?

Armaghmagic

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Ok. In that case she is required to be present and available to take the class so you can't approach the disruption to your double class from the angle of it interfering with the school timetable.

If it were me I would ask my principal or dp to contact DCU regarding the SNA. This goes beyond your supervision as it involved interference with school and indeed department policy and I think most schools would object to this carry on. DCU wont be long in improving the professionalism of their inspectors if they think schools would be reluctant to accommodate their students.

I would raise the issue of disruption of the double with the course coordinator. But that's really a personal call since you know the people involved.

It's a pity you don't have more of a relationship with your cooperating teacher. These are issues they could advise and support you on. Does she teach the class part of the week?

Thanks that was really helpful. No I take all the classes for the week and their "normal" teacher has had no interaction with them since day one this year!

Fizzical

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Ok. In that case she is required to be present and available to take the class

Required by whom? Can you tell me where I would find this regulation, please? Not the practice in my school.

Also, as appears to be the case here, it can happen that PDE students are given sole charge of a class for the year and someone in the subject dept is asked to 'link with them, a bit of advice if they need it, you know....'

Miss Lockhart

Fizzical wrote: »

Required by whom? Can you tell me where I would find this regulation, please? Not the practice in my school.

Also, as appears to be the case here, it can happen that PDE students are given sole charge of a class for the year and someone in the subject dept is asked to 'link with them, a bit of advice if they need it, you know....'

The schools I have worked in have all said that if the teacher is timetabled for, and being paid for, the class then they must be available to take the class if the TP teacher is absent or becomes sick or if the inpector comes in. They are responsible for the class as they are paid for it. Most of the colleges also specify in their documentation for schools that they don't want student teachers to have sole charge of a class and that another teacher should be available to cover the student teacher's timetable to accommodate meetings with the inspector.

Obviously if somebody has been given sole charge of a class for the year and the link teacher is not timetabled for, or paid for, the class then they absolutely couldn't be expected to be available to step in. And that is more common with students on the part time DCU course where many of them are being paid to work in the school and just using their timetabled classes for their Dip.

spurious

Fizzical wrote: »

Required by whom? Can you tell me where I would find this regulation, please? Not the practice in my school.

Also, as appears to be the case here, it can happen that PDE students are given sole charge of a class for the year and someone in the subject dept is asked to 'link with them, a bit of advice if they need it, you know....'

Insurance-wise, they, as the qualified person, are the insured person for the class. Anything untoward happens a child in that room while the 'dipper' is in and they are insured because the insured person is on the premises.

Wyldwood

Many years ago when I was doing my H Dip (as it was known) my subject inspector constantly appeared half way through a class period causing disruption to the class which often resulted in the students losing interest & getting fidgety. I took this to the principal at the time and her advice was to make a formal complaint at the end of the year when exams were done. I did this, I wrote an official complaint to the head of the education department in UCC and it was taken quite seriously.
The SNA situation needs sorting now if that inspector is making a habit of that but perhaps wait to make any formal complaints to the college on the inspectors timekeeping until later in case it affects your relationship with the inspector which may in turn reflect on your final grade.

Good luck with the course, it's a tough one nowadays!

Fizzical

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

The schools I have worked in have all said that if the teacher is timetabled for, and being paid for, the class then they must be available to take the class if the TP teacher is absent or becomes sick or if the inpector comes in. They are responsible for the class as they are paid for it.

So it's not a regulation as such but is the practice in some schools? In our school, if a student teacher is absent then of course they communicate with the regular teacher who then takes the class. Not for an inspector visit though, it doesn't arise. And they certainly don't have to sit about in the staffroom while the class is being taught if they are confident the student teacher is okay with the class. For a difficult class, or a practical class, it does make sense to be within reach.

Most of the colleges also specify in their documentation for schools that they don't want student teachers to have sole charge of a class and that another teacher should be available to cover the student teacher's timetable to accommodate meetings with the inspector.

I wouldn't be privy to the documentation sent to schools by the colleges. I'd say that the documentation recommends rather than tells the school what to do with its teachers - otherwise we wouldn't have students in full charge of classes.

Obviously if somebody has been given sole charge of a class for the year and the link teacher is not timetabled for, or paid for, the class then they absolutely couldn't be expected to be available to step in. And that is more common with students on the part time DCU course where many of them are being paid to work in the school and just using their timetabled classes for their Dip.

So much for only using qualified teachers. I think it's a disgrace to put student teachers in sole charge of a class. Far better to use retired teachers. Why pay an unqualified student to teach a class when you could hire an unemployed teacher?

Miss Lockhart

Fizzical wrote: »

So it's not a regulation as such but is the practice in some schools? In our school, if a student teacher is absent then of course they communicate with the regular teacher who then takes the class. Not for an inspector visit though, it doesn't arise. And they certainly don't have to sit about in the staffroom while the class is being taught if they are confident the student teacher is okay with the class. For a difficult class, or a practical class, it does make sense to be within reach.

I wouldn't be privy to the documentation sent to schools by the colleges. I'd say that the documentation recommends rather than tells the school what to do with its teachers - otherwise we wouldn't have students in full charge of classes.

So much for only using qualified teachers. I think it's a disgrace to put student teachers in sole charge of a class. Far better to use retired teachers. Why pay an unqualified student to teach a class when you could hire an unemployed teacher?

I was told it was an insurance requirement. If it is then I'm surprised some schools are not following it, but I don't know for sure that it's an insurance requirement in all schools. If I am being paid to be responsible for a class I personally would not be comfortable to leave the building while it is ongoing and I would want to have close contact with the student teacher about how things are progressing.

As I said, the college say they don't want students given sole charge of a class and the documentation that I have seen has been worded as "should not have sole responsiblity for a class". I doubt colleges can dictate to schools though and they obviously accept that it happens as they don't ask students to find another placement.

The teachers I have known that are being paid while doing the dip are working in VEC schools where the dip is still not a requirement so they are not unqualified for those schools. Often they have been working for the VEC for several years before choosing to do the dip.

Fizzical

spurious wrote: »

Insurance-wise, they, as the qualified person, are the insured person for the class. Anything untoward happens a child in that room while the 'dipper' is in and they are insured because the insured person is on the premises.

I don't know about that. I've never heard of 'an insured person for the class'. As long as someone has the class with the permission of the school, I'm sure they're insured. What about general speakers, prefects talking to the class etc? They're not qualified people.

Is this with Church & General - have you seen the policy?

Not trying to be awkward, just curious.

Miss Lockhart

Fizzical wrote: »

I don't know about that. I've never heard of 'an insured person for the class'. As long as someone has the class with the permission of the school, I'm sure they're insured. What about general speakers, prefects talking to the class etc? They're not qualified people.

What I have been led to believe is that the person is only insured if they are being paid by the school.

I would be surprised if general speakers or prefects were left with a class without teacher supervision. Again, that would not be allowed happen in any school with which I'm familiar.

Obviously different schools are using different procedures and I suppose at the end of the day we can only follow what our principal or BOM has stated as policy and procedure.

Fizzical

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

What I have been led to believe is that the person is only insured if they are being paid by the school.

I don't think this is the case. Schools have many people through their doors on a regular and official basis. Insurance policies would take account of this. As long as management approves a given practice that is not contra-indicated in the insurance policy, that should be sufficient for cover.

I would be surprised if general speakers or prefects were left with a class without teacher supervision. Again, that would not be allowed happen in any school with which I'm familiar.

Our insurance company (admittedly a while ago) emphasised to us that we were to use our professional judgement as to what we considered safe in any particular circumstance.

Obviously different schools are using different procedures and I suppose at the end of the day we can only follow what our principal or BOM has stated as policy and procedure.

Yes, different strokes.

At the end of the day we should be actively involved in drawing up acceptable policy and procedure, in full knowledge of insurance requirements.

Sometimes what is passed off as insurance/BOM requirements in not in fact required either by the insurance or by the BOM. BOM staff representatives should be able to check out what exactly is in the insurance documentation.

thefasteriwalk

Fizzical wrote: »

So much for only using qualified teachers. I think it's a disgrace to put student teachers in sole charge of a class. Far better to use retired teachers. Why pay an unqualified student to teach a class when you could hire an unemployed teacher?

I suspect they're not being paid - or certainly the majority. I had sole responsibility for three classes during my dip year, but I was not paid. It was in a voluntary school. I had a cooperating teacher, as did my fellow dip students, who was given one extra free period on their timetable to 'work with me, should I need it.' I don't think she spoke more than twenty words to me over the course of the year. That year, the school I was in had 12 classes fully covered by dip students for the year. That said, it was a really fantastic school in terms of both academics and behaviour, and none of us had any real issues anyway.

Miss Lockhart

thefasteriwalk wrote: »

I suspect they're not being paid - or certainly the majority. I had sole responsibility for three classes during my dip year, but I was not paid. It was in a voluntary school. I had a cooperating teacher, as did my fellow dip students, who was given one extra free period on their timetable to 'work with me, should I need it.' I don't think she spoke more than twenty words to me over the course of the year. That year, the school I was in had 12 classes fully covered by dip students for the year. That said, it was a really fantastic school in terms of both academics and behaviour, and none of us had any real issues anyway.

No I don't think the majority of student teachers with sole responsibility for a class are being paid. My comment referred specifically to the DCU course which seems to have been originally designed for those working without a dip, many of whom were/are permanent, to get the qualification without having to take a year out. I have friends working for the VEC ten years who are doing the course and there are plenty of others like them. Around 25 teachers from my school have qualified this way. They are paid as normal to teach their contracted hours and the fact they are doing this course makes little difference to the school.

evolving_doors

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

No I don't think the majority of student teachers with sole responsibility for a class are being paid. My comment referred specifically to the DCU course which seems to have been originally designed for those working without a dip, many of whom were/are permanent, to get the qualification without having to take a year out. I have friends working for the VEC ten years who are doing the course and there are plenty of others like them. Around 25 teachers from my school have qualified this way. They are paid as normal to teach their contracted hours and the fact they are doing this course makes little difference to the school.

I suppose it's true to say that situations vary widely depending on who does the dip and with what college/school.

In my opinion though it seems as if the issue of a link teacher in the school just boils down to money and hours!
I dont know if it's true but in the situation above it seems that the school has a dip student in taking a class full time for the year. It could be said that the other teacher is not being paid for these classes so therefore wouldn't assume any responsibility for what goes on. this I think is a very bad situation to be in for a teacher in training.
We have taken teachers from all of the colleges in our school and although it is never a requirement or mentioned, the link teacher is always on hand before, during or after the dip's classes, especially if a supervisor arrives in. I think it's unprofessional and negligent not to be on hand.

Now...in saying all that, if the school is using the student as a money saving device then inevitably youll get cases where all of the responsibility is foisted onto the trainee teacher with meer tokenism from the link teacher. You wouldn't really see that in any other profession, and I think (with all due respect to the trainee teacher) it does a disservice to the students.

Postgrad10

Perhaps OP should delete this thread in case he or she is recognised ?

Fizzical

Armelodie wrote: »

I suppose it's true to say that situations vary widely depending on who does the dip and with what college/school.

In my opinion though it seems as if the issue of a link teacher in the school just boils down to money and hours!
I dont know if it's true but in the situation above it seems that the school has a dip student in taking a class full time for the year. It could be said that the other teacher is not being paid for these classes so therefore wouldn't assume any responsibility for what goes on. this I think is a very bad situation to be in for a teacher in training.

If a school has a dip student taking a class full time for the year (as above, and as in other cases known to me) then it is appalling management - unfair on unemployed teachers, on the dip themselves, on the students and on the other teachers in that department who will have to take up the slack the following year. In the case of a practical subject it is also quite unsafe.

We have taken teachers from all of the colleges in our school and although it is never a requirement or mentioned, the link teacher is always on hand before, during or after the dip's classes, especially if a supervisor arrives in. I think it's unprofessional and negligent not to be on hand.

Now...in saying all that, if the school is using the student as a money saving device then inevitably youll get cases where all of the responsibility is foisted onto the trainee teacher with meer tokenism from the link teacher. You wouldn't really see that in any other profession, and I think (with all due respect to the trainee teacher) it does a disservice to the students.

What teacher would voluntarily take on the responsibility of an extra class that they don't teach and its unqualified and inexperienced teacher when they are already on maximum hours? It would be a case of it being foisted onto the link teacher too. Not happening in any other profession? Teachers can be seen as mere pawns on a board by Principals, moved about to fill spaces on a timetable, with professionalism having little to do with it. When I saw dips and unqualified people given full charge of classes for a year, there was no recession.

trihead

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

No I don't think the majority of student teachers with sole responsibility for a class are being paid. My comment referred specifically to the DCU course which seems to have been originally designed for those working without a dip, many of whom were/are permanent, to get the qualification without having to take a year out. I have friends working for the VEC ten years who are doing the course and there are plenty of others like them. Around 25 teachers from my school have qualified this way. They are paid as normal to teach their contracted hours and the fact they are doing this course makes little difference to the school.

This is correct. The DCU course was set up a couple of years ago for teachers currently in the system - teaching without the hip dip but with teaching contract so getting paid ( not just vec teachers ). Its part-time over 2 years with classes in the evening not like the ucd/tcd courses. Many of the students are in this situation and would have their classes the full year and getting paid. Not all though - but thats the market of the course so its different than the other traditional teaching courses.

Regarding the op - speak to the teaching practice head in DCU - Brendan Walsh I think it is but don't go all guns blazing as some posters have suggested here. Mention your concern and maybe suggest /request a new visit given the problems with the last one. If that fails put in a formal complaint but speak to them first as I'm sure they will want to sort it out for both parties in the best way possible given the 'mess' over the sna.

Ps - I've nothing to do with DCU by the way:)

Armaghmagic

Ok some developments.

I was given some OTT information. The SNA has a roaming remit (i.e. she walks around the class to different students) but all the tutor asked her to do was to sit beside 1 student for the duration of the class, to which the SNA replied "maybe I will just sit out" and the tutor came back with "even better"......so think I cannot really take that any further.

However if a previous poster brought a case about their tutor coming in during a class and this was taken seriously then perhaps I might mention this to the head of teacher placement. Classroom Management contributes to a high % of the overall mark so the tutor disturbing my class could be a factor.

seavill

Is the sna assigned to one child in the çlass or what

Armaghmagic

seavill wrote: »

Is the sna assigned to one child in the çlass or what

No she has a roaming remit as there as a number of students that need her assistance.

seavill

Well then we are back to the same situation that everyone responded to. If the SNA is assigned to several students she must be allowed attend all students during the course of the class. It is the same as we were saying if she is assigned to one student she must be allowed attend them.
The tutor is still completely out of line

whiteandlight

If the sna is assigned to the class, be it for an individual or a group of students it should not be interfered with. I have an sna support in four classes in first year. She is there specifically for four students but the school makes a major effort not to alienate students with sna's so they move around and help everyone as required while focusing on the four students in question. I would never ask her to stop doing this and focus on one of them??

Asking the sna to leave the room is not acceptable no matter what the situation.

Miss Lockhart

It's a little bit better that the SNA wasn't actually told to leave but her role shouldn't have been interfered with at all.

I just find it really weird that the inspector would interfere with the lesson at all. He should have just shown up, sat quietly at the back making notes and then spoke to you about it all afterwards. How could he possibly get an accurate picture of how you run your class if he changes everything around when he shows up? I still wouldn't be happy.