Gun control in the future.

Sparks

Grizzly, George Hook's not on RTE. Or do you just mean in general?

Grizzly 45

In general.Listening/watching RTE1 these days is like watching the old East German communist propaganda stations they beamed into West Germany when I was a kid in the 1970s.:rolleyes:
The rest of them....Lets not go there!!!

yubabill1

Best way to protest is to respond to programmes like Pat Kenny yesterday.

Blatant ignorance if ever I heard any.

factoid: Right wing gun owners in ROI are FG Voters with firearms licences.

rowa

http://bigpicture.ru/?p=63558

right click and "translate with" if you want to read it.

BattleCorp

rowa wrote: »

http://bigpicture.ru/?p=63558

right click and "translate with" if you want to read it.

It would be a brave man firing any of those guns. I think I like my face and hands just the way they are thank you.

Grizzly 45

I suppose if you got nothing else to shoot you take what you can get.... But maybe in more stricter gun controlled/banned totalitarian societies you dont have much of an option,and most of those guns looked more like military or for home defence than "sporting guns" anyway.:pac:

Ever hear of a Sten any mark blowing up in WW2??They werent put together much differently and from some just as questionable materials with non proof house marked barrells en masse. A reciver made of car exhaust pipe,loads of tinney stamped metal parts,tack welded together in a toy factory.A brass/bronze occasionaly cast in those materials bolt head.'Bout the only steel in the whole gun is the breech and barrel.

TBH,before mass production,ALL guns were hand built like this,and occasionally production guns can and do explode as well.

rowa

http://youtu.be/kPPNYCexFbE

Stinicker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK55GSbSWQ0

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/working-gun-can-be-made-by-anyone-using-a-3d-printer-8605206.html

3D Printing is still in its infancy yet and very expensive but in countries where Gun Ownership is tightly regulated it will probably become more of a problem as people who would typically be unable to get their hands of weapons find that they can just manufacture them at home for themselves instead. Criminals will probably still have their own ways of obtaining weapons but what would stop a few teenagers from printing out their own gun and taking it to school which is the sort of scenario concerning people in the article.

Cass

While recognising that it can be done i seriously doubt it is anything to worry about. Most of it has been covered in this thread.

The guy in the video fired one shot of .22 rimfire. About the least pressurised cartridge there is. I would like to see someone try that with a .38, 9mm, .40, .45 or even .50 cal. Also to be able to fire more than one round. The printed guns are not shotguns or rifles, and if someone got a printer, and assembled the parts it will never stand up to the pressures of a rifle round. When you consider shotguns, and rifles can have up to 60,000 PSI at the chamber. It's a no brainer.

Some will argue that if a criminal wants a gun they can print them off. With a cheap machine going at €8,000 it's not exactly "cheap". Then there is the design. The one in the video is a basic chamber/firing pin/trigger assembled in the most basic of frames. However you need to be proficient with computers, and programming to make the machine print one off or have access to design specs from existing manufacturers which is neither easy nor cheap. So get one part slightly wrong and rimfire or not it's goodbye hand(s).

The other issue, and while some may believe this will not be an issue i disagree, is accuracy. The barrel is not rifled so it's basically a smooth bore and anything after 10 feet is dead safe. notice in the video they did not show the target or the distance he was shooting at. Even from a criminal aspect you want to hit what you are aiming at.


Lastly, if they do clamp down on 3D printers, and control/monitor them even stricter than real firearms - so what. As no law abiding person will be using one or wanting one what does it matter to us? Not being flippant, but seriously how will this affect us. They talk about printing off pistols. It's illegal from the start so not going to affect us.

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

Lastly, if they do clamp down on 3D printers, and control/monitor them even stricter than real firearms - so what. As no law abiding person will be using one or wanting one what does it matter to us?

Well, I'd like one. Being able to make spare parts for bits that break around the house, being able to run off trophies for matches, being able to make up parts for robots, being able to print off chess pieces, that kind of thing would be neat.

But you print off a firearm and it's the same thing as making one through traditional means - do it with the appropriate paperwork and licencing and all's okay; otherwise, it's highly illegal and equally detectable regardless of methods used. So banning 3D printers wouldn't help.

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

So banning 3D printers wouldn't help.

Never said to ban them. I said if they were to monitor/control the sale of them.

As for buying one and using it for parts for household items, and non firearm uses well that it the point of the machine is it not? All completely legal and above board so not even an issue.

Then using one to legally make a gun. Well whomever likes can have my one. I'll stick with the metal variety. I value my face, and hands.

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

But you print off a firearm and it's the same thing as making one through traditional means - do it with the appropriate paperwork and licencing and all's okay; otherwise, it's highly illegal and equally detectable regardless of methods used. So banning 3D printers wouldn't help.

Exactly , plenty of lads with lathes and milling machines in their sheds into restoration or model engineering etc and there hasn't been a spate of homemade guns produced. Though the home office in the uk were going to try control or have a register of machine tools as they could be used for gunmaking, they came to their senses and gave up the idea as unworkable.

Rovi

There was an item on this in the Morning Ireland programme on RTE Radio 1 earlier this morning, I'm sure it'll appear online in due course.
Allegedly, the gun being discussed is chambered in some flavour of .38.

The local 'expert' mentioned that these printers can be used to make plastic parts for AK47s and M-16s, to audible gasps of incredulity in the background :rolleyes:


Here you go:
Need a gun? Photocopy one
http://www.rte.ie/news/morningireland/player.html?20130507,20198634,20198634,flash,232

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Never said to ban them. I said if they were to monitor/control the sale of them.

Then there will be a fine black market for unregisterd 3d printers..:D:D:D

8000 euros for a printer??Try putting one together for about 400 USD! That does the job maybe alot slower,but just as well.
Like anything the technology will become cheaper as the demand increases.
Remember how much the first computer,DVD player and flat screen was??
BUT
It doesnt matter as no matter what at this level of technology until someone develops a liquid steel that will go thru a printer nozzle that can withstand the continous pressures of a cartridge going down it,or slamming into it all this will do is print out non pressure bearing parts.
So along with all the other good stuff we are supposed to have by now,like hover boards, personal jet packs,personal robots and phasers.:D This is still in the scifi side of things.

They are talking of trying the so called "Luty project" next.This is based on a chap who developed a DIY SMG in the UK in the 1990s,called PA Luty.[Google it for the whole story].
This is going to be a as much as possible plastic SMG. However,I still see metal no matter what in the design,like barrel,bolt and firing pins etc.

As for this "Liberator" pistol,it still isnt all plastic,it still needs a steel barrel insert.
It is a concept gun based on the ww2 throwaway all metal single shot Liberator pistol that the Allies dropped by the thousands all over occupied Europe.Idea was it was simple to use,sneak up on a German soilder ,shoot them with this and liberate their rifle and equipment.
Now before the screams of aghastness arise that this is a new massacre weapon that criminals will be making in their millions.
Dare I suggest that for somthing that is an up close and personal weapon it has a lot of disadvantages.
1] You still need ammo for it
2]You need a at least thousand euro 3d printer
3]You need to know how to read and use CAD
4]Its not totally undectable with a metal detector and properly trained security personel due to its metal barrel insert.
5]You could put together a halfway decent improvised firearm at home for a quarter of the price of all of the above using normal house hold tools and materials.
6] The distance that this is effective.IE phone booth or card table range.:pac: You might as well use a bit of lead pipe,a ball pein hammer or a good meat cleaver for better effect.:rolleyes:


So still no matter what,it is still very "Star Trek" to belive that within the next few years this will be capable of producing a full ,safe all plastic gun.

Grizzly 45

Rovi wrote: »

T
The local 'expert' mentioned that these printers can be used to make plastic parts for AK47s and M-16s, to audible gasps of incredulity in the background :rolleyes:


Here you go:
Need a gun? Photocopy one
http://www.rte.ie/news/morningireland/player.html?20130507,20198634,20198634,flash,232

As usual the misinformed and ignorant commenting on the shocking and not on the reasoning behind this .:rolleyes:

Victor

I wonder what heat dissipation would be like. While plastics tend to have a higher specific heat capacity than metals (typically 3 times that of steel), they also have lower conductivity (typically steel is 500 times more conductive) and melting points. And then there is ignition temperature.

Grizzly 45

The current liberator pistol design is a single shot,so there isnt any big rate of fire going thru it.
Still at the momentit has a steel barrel or barrel insert,so not going to get away from that part.:)
Be more intresting to see how they intend on the Luty project around the wear and tear of the battering a full auto bolt will be subjected to,and how they will produce the required weight for this to function reliably.
IOW until liquid steel is available for these printers.Heat dissipation is not going to be a big problem.

As for other polymer plastic pistols currently out there.Yet to hear of a glock melting or bursting into flames.:D

EWQuinn

All this just helps prove the point that gun control is futile if the intent is to keep criminals from owning guns. If the intent is to heavily regulate law abiding citizens, then gun control is the ticket. Not that the printer folks are crooks mind you. But like the home computer gives every owner the power to design and compute to levels previously possible only for a mainframe, we are increasingly able to manufacture stuff in the garage, basement & the individual shop.

As to the Liberator, interesting concept and just about as impractical as most of the experimental stuff in this thread. Kind of a good place to circle back to in this discussion. Very little evidence of them having been supplied anywhere in numbers except Pacific / China-Burma theater, and precious little information on that. Very little evidence of their actual use anywhere anytime. More of novelty perpetrated by the black ops idea guys of the WWII era, one of many misdirected well meaning ideas. I got one because my uncle who flew the hump in C-46s appropriated one as a gift to my dad who built the runways (a good and enterprising Irishman my uncle, he ended up running a shipping company after the war).

zom

Stinicker wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/working-gun-can-be-made-by-anyone-using-a-3d-printer-8605206.html

3D Printing is still in its infancy yet and very expensive but in countries where Gun Ownership is tightly regulated it will probably become more of a problem as people who would typically be unable to get their hands of weapons find that they can just manufacture them at home for themselves instead. Criminals will probably still have their own ways of obtaining weapons but what would stop a few teenagers from printing out their own gun and taking it to school which is the sort of scenario concerning people in the article.

I checked local 3D printers but: