Question re elderly atheist relative and funeral arrangements by Catholic family.

Worztron

Hi guys.

A dear old relative of mine has recently died. I know he was an atheist. For the last 3+ years he has had deteriorating memory. Most of the family are "Catholic" but probably more out of tradition rather than truly believing in adult fairy tales.

My question is this. Will my relative get a Christian funeral (the thought turns my stomach) or is the only other way around this is if he made a will and stated he wanted a non-religious funeral?

After-all, the funeral is for him and not the relatives.

magicbastarder

no, the funeral is for the relatives. he's dead. he won't notice. whether the relatives respect his wishes is another matter.

who the fug

What we did for our father in the UK was get a Humanist celebrant in, it was a good.


Irish Website is here

seamus

I'd argue that a funeral is for the relatives. He's dead, what does he care how they choose to mark his passing?

Ultimately there's basically nothing you can do. Anyone is free to hold any kind of remembrance ceremony for anyone else. Ownership of the body passes to the person's next-of-kin, so in the strictest sense they are the ones who get to decide what kind of funeral is to be held.

But you can have ceremonies without a body, so there's nothing stopping you from holding your own. Of course you don't do that because it's ridiculously insensitive and disrespectful to the family.

I don't think even an expression of wishes in a will can be legally enforced, the NOK retains absolute right to hold whatever kind of ceremony they wish.

Unless you are close enough to the person that you feel your opinion on the ceremony holds equal weight, then I would recommend keeping schtum. The death of a loved one is hard enough without introducing arguments over the burial/ceremony. Pretty sure your relative would rather that you went with whatever option results in the least amount of animosity between his family members.

If you are that close, but his next of kin is insistent on a religious ceremony, then perhaps come to a compromise where you do a humanist reading which you feel adequately reflects him. Or perhaps even ask if you can give a homily and you can talk about the man he was, thereby removing some of the blandness an impersonalness from the ceremony. But don't mention religion. This is not a time to make a point, it's a time to grieve.

who the fug

magicbastarder wrote: »

no, the funeral is for the relatives. he's dead. he won't notice. whether the relatives respect his wishes is another matter.

Depends how he did the will

Rev Hellfire

Worztron wrote: »

Will my relative get a Christian funeral

It might be more productive to ask his next of kin rather than random strangers on the interwebs.

Ilik Urgee

Surely how he's buried is at the discretion of his next of kin.

Sarky

What if he didn't want to be buried?

Thing is, if he never specified, it's a bit late to do anything about it now. I'd imagine if it really bothered him he'd have said something like "Don't you dare bury me like a Catholic or I swear I'll come back and haunt the sh*t out of you all."

Morag

Whom ever is his legal next of kin, they get to decide the funeral.

I know someone who was legally separated nearly 12 years and died and was atheist.
But as he was not divorced his ex was still his wife under law and next of kin
as a result his partner was refused access to the hospital, had no say in medical decisions
and was not part of the funeral arrangements, was told they were not welcome at the full catholic funeral.

Dades

Unless he specified somewhere that he wanted a non-religious funeral, there's officially nothing to be done. You could mention it to whoever is going to be organising the service, but the likelihood is they're not going to be interested in thinking outside their box.

Of course you could request to speak at his service and gently mention that the aforementioned dear old relative was an atheist and would have considered the chants and the incense somewhat superfluous - that might at least clear up the memory of him to those in the pews actually interested.

Sulla Felix

Morag wrote: »

Whom ever is his legal next of kin, they get to decide the funeral.

I know someone who was legally separated nearly 12 years and died and was atheist.
But as he was not divorced his ex was still his wife under law and next of kin
as a result his partner was refused access to the hospital, had no say in medical decisions
and was not part of the funeral arrangements, was told they were not welcome at the full catholic funeral.

People can be so fúcking horrible to each other sometimes.

MrPudding

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

It might be more productive to ask his next of kin rather than random strangers on the interwebs.

The OP appears to be asking a question along the lines of, what is the position is the NOK want one thing but the dead person has requested something else in their will? That seems like a perfectly valid question to me, which could be adequately answered by random strangers on the interwebs, assuming they had sufficient knowledge of the law relating to wills.

Had he asked, "what will the NOK of my relative do?" then your comment might actually have been valid.

MrP

Rev Hellfire

MrPudding wrote: »

The OP appears to be asking a question along the lines of, what is the position is the NOK want one thing but the dead person has requested something else in their will?

But that's not what they said:

Worztron wrote: »

Will my relative get a Christian funeral or is the only other way around this is if he made a will and stated he wanted a non-religious funeral?

They provided no information other than he's dead.

Perhaps if they provided some information as to the existence or not of a will and it instructions regards burial then people could comment.

But as it the post reads, blokes dead, hows he going to get sent off?

MrPudding

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

But that's not what they said:



They provided no information other than he's dead.

Perhaps if they provided some information as to the existence or not of a will and it instructions regards burial then people could comment.

But as it the post reads, blokes dead, hows he going to get sent off?

You have actually quoted his question. Where he asks, "is the only other way around this is if he made a will and stated he wanted a non-religious funeral?" It seems to me to be more of a general question as to how these things work rather than do you strangers know how my relative, whom you don't know anything about, will be buried by his relative, who you also don't know about.

I would have thought that asking a general question, like this, would be perfectly acceptable here. Similar to people asking about school admission policies and the like. It is, after all, a discussion forum. I would expect people should be free to ask questions, particularly if they relate to atheism in some way.

So, whilst in the specific case of his relative the NOK are going to be the people he needs to talk to about what is going to happen to his relative, surely it is sensible for him to get some information about what happens, in general, in circumstances such as this, so he has a better idea of what to expect? No?

MrP

Worztron

Worztron wrote: »

out of tradition rather than truly believing in adult fairy tales

Wow that is very dis respectful to Catholics or any Christian who believes in God or Heaven.

One should respect all religions.

Shame on you !

Rev Hellfire

If its a general question why address it as "Will my relative get a Christian funeral". That's as specific as it gets.

Asking us "is the only other way around this is if he made a will and stated he wanted a non-religious funeral" seems to be equally specific to said dead uncle.

But hey, I'm happy to assume they just composed the question badly.

Hotblack Desiato

Deleted User wrote: »

Wow that is very dis respectful to Catholics or any Christian who believes in God or Heaven.

No, it's disrespectful to their beliefs. I am not required to respect anyone's belief in their imaginary friend, whether they claim their imaginary friend is a god or isn't.

One should respect all religions.

People have a right to believe in whatever they want but not to impose it on anyone else, or use it to shape laws by which everyone must live, and I can't respect the view that religion should be above criticism or indeed ridicule - because religion is ridiculous.

Shame on you !

(channelling Bill Hicks) shouldn't you be forgiving him instead?

krudler

Deleted User wrote: »

Wow that is very dis respectful to Catholics or any Christian who believes in God or Heaven.

One should respect all religions.

Shame on you !

Why?

OP there's not much you can do unless he had it in his will, I told my family I'll come back and haunt them if I have a catholic funeral :pac:

MrPudding

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

But hey, I'm happy to assume they just composed the question badly.

That is kind of what I thought... Personally I think it is, when composed correctly, an interesting question...

MrP

Hotblack Desiato

I doubt a will would do any good, is it going to be read before the funeral? Even if the next of kin are aware of the will and can get their hands on it straight away, there is nothing stopping one or more of them from keeping quiet about the funeral wishes part until it's too late and the 'catholic by default' ceremony is imposed.

Sulla Felix

ninja900 wrote: »

I doubt a will would do any good, is it going to be read before the funeral? Even if the next of kin are aware of the will and can get their hands on it straight away, there is nothing stopping one or more of them from keeping quiet about the funeral wishes part until it's too late and the 'catholic by default' ceremony is imposed.

Especially since, in my experience at least, it's usually the women of the household who do a lot of the arranging and decision making at times like this. So, a certain amount of the attitude we see at census time comes into play as well, "ah, sure we'll put him down as Catholic anyway, tis only a phase."
Edit: Ok, that sounds a bit hostile to women now. Pretty sure y'all know what I mean though.

ninja900

ninja900 wrote: »

No, it's disrespectful to their beliefs. I am not required to respect anyone's belief in their imaginary friend, whether they claim their imaginary friend is a god or isn't.

Having respect for someone's beliefs is showing respect for the person. And we should respect other people regardless of their beliefs.

ninja900 wrote: »

People have a right to believe in whatever they want but not to impose it on anyone else, or use it to shape laws by which everyone must live, and I can't respect the view that religion should be above criticism or indeed ridicule - because religion is ridiculous.

Where did this come from ?

Dades

Deleted User wrote: »

One should respect all religions.

Eh, no. Respect needs to be earned, and the Catholic Church certainly hasn't earned theirs much.

Will be interesting to see how much 'respect' is paid to the deceased's belief in this case.

krudler

krudler wrote: »

Why?

Why not ?

Dades

Dades wrote: »

Eh, no. Respect needs to be earned, and the Catholic Church certainly hasn't earned theirs much.

Will be interesting to see how much 'respect' is paid to the deceased's belief in this case.

I never said anything about the Catholic Church, in fact I did not mention any religion ?

What has the catholic church done on you ?

I try respect other people regardless of who they are until they give me reason not to, so someone is equal in my book regardless of their race/religion/beliefs

I never stated the deceased shouldn't have his wishes carried out. In fact I find it downright disrespectful if he did not want any religious burial.

Hotblack Desiato

Deleted User wrote: »

Having respect for someone's beliefs is showing respect for the person. And we should respect other people regardless of their beliefs.

People aren't deserving of respect no matter what. Although you do backpedal from this a couple of posts later.
Beliefs which are irrational, ridiculous, or hateful certainly don't deserve respect.

Where did this come from ?

My keyboard.

We all know that 'respect religion' is convenient shorthand for 'don't criticise religion' so I thought I'd cut to the chase.

ninja900

ninja900 wrote: »

People aren't deserving of respect no matter what. Although you do backpedal from this a couple of posts later.
Beliefs which are irrational, ridiculous, or hateful certainly don't deserve respect.



My keyboard.

We all know that 'respect religion' is convenient shorthand for 'don't criticise religion' so I thought I'd cut to the chase.

So you treat people with utter disrespect until such time as you think they deserve respect ? am I reading that correct ?

I mentioned nothing of religion, you assumed I was talking about religion when I said beliefs !

Dades

Deleted User wrote: »

I never said anything about the Catholic Church, in fact I did not mention any religion ?

Eh, you said ALL religions?

Deleted User wrote: »

I try respect other people regardless of who they are until they give me reason not to, so someone is equal in my book regardless of their race/religion/beliefs.

There's an obvious difference between respecting religions, and respecting people. Don't be moving the goalposts here!

Hotblack Desiato

Deleted User wrote: »

So you treat people with utter disrespect until such time as you think they deserve respect ? am I reading that correct ?

No, you're creating a massive strawman.

I mentioned nothing of religion, you assumed I was talking about religion when I said beliefs !

Dear oh dear. Allow me :

Deleted User wrote: »

Wow that is very dis respectful to Catholics or any Christian who believes in God or Heaven.

One should respect all religions.

Shame on you !

Peregrinus

The legal position is this: the right and responsibility for making funeral arrangements is the next-of-kin’s. (If they fail to do so, or if there are no traceable next-of-kin, eventually the Health Services Executive will step in and arrange something, but that’s not at issue here.)

If you’re concerned about your own funeral, and you want to ensure that it will not be (or, alternatively, that it will be) a religious funeral, you need at a minimum to make your wishes clear to your next of kin. If you are concerned that they will not respect your wishes, you can do things like book (and pay for) your own funeral in advance with a funeral operator, with all the details arranged the way you want them. Yes, your NOK could still ignore the arrangements you have made and do something else, but you might think that’s less likely.

In general, there’s not much point in putting something about this in your will. Typically, your will won’t get read until after the funeral, and so won’t influence the funeral arrangements. But there is one circumstance where your will could be relevant; if you think your NOK will disrespect the wishes you have expressed to them regarding your funeral, you can leave them a bequest in the will conditional on their having respected your funeral directions, and make sure they know that you have done this. That gives them a powerful incentive to respect your wishes.

If you have an elderly relative and you expect to be in the position of being their next of kin and having to arrange their funeral, you probably know what they would like. If you don’t know, the only way you can find out is to ask them, though I appreciate that could be a sensitive conversation to have.

If their wishes for their funeral are not for the kind of funeral that you would like to attend, you have a dilemma; are you going to respect their wishes, or are you going to ignore their wishes and organise the kind of funeral and you and/or the wider family want? Or are you going to tray for some compromise which reflects a bit of both? But it’s an ethical dilemma, not a legal one. Legally, decisions about the funeral will be for you to make.

If you are neither the person whose funeral we are talking about nor the person who expects to be the next of kin, but a more distant family member or friend, your role is clear; butt out. If it upsets you that poor Jim is having a religious funeral (or a non-religious funeral) you have to deal with that upset yourself; your feelings are your problem, and not anyone else’s.

Beruthiel

Worztron wrote: »

my relative get a Christian funeral (the thought turns my stomach) or is the only other way around this is if he made a will and stated he wanted a non-religious funeral?

My hubby and daughter are very well aware that my body should be brought no where near a church.

So, if your relative did not go to the trouble of being very insistent to the people around him, you would have to conclude, that he really didn't care enough about what happens to his body once he had passed away.
Perhaps you could let that be some comfort to you.