Question re elderly atheist relative and funeral arrangements by Catholic family.

Ilik Urgee

Been thinking about this since my last post and I've changed my mind due to realising the will would never have been read by the time of the funeral.

Would it be feasible to ask the NOK whether the deceased wishes are being respected,(not in so many words but sensitively) before the funeral?

It's a fine line I know but people can be very bullish when it comes to breaking tradition regarding funerals- I know I've been at funerals of friends and relatives and questioned whether certain proceedings really were suitable to their character/beliefs.
I've since told my OH if she'll get satisfaction from throwing me into a rain barrel when I'm gone to do it, so long as she gets some kind of closure for herself.

So in that respect,thank you OP!

Peregrinus

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Been thinking about this since my last post and I've changed my mind due to realising the will will never have been read by the time of the funeral.

Would it be feasible to ask the NOK whether the deceased wishes are being respected,(not in so many words but sensitively) before the funeral?

Well, it's feasible, but I question whether there is much point.

First, however sensitive you are, it's hard to ask the question without giving offence. The fact that you ask the question at all implies that you think they might not respect the deceased's wishes. They might get a bit shirty at that implication.

Secondly, whatever the NOK is planning, they are hardly going to answer by saying that they are flouting the deceased's wishes. They will do what they decide to do, and tell you that it is the deceased's wishes. ("Yes, I know mother never entered a church after her first communion, and regarded all priests as the spawn of Satan, but she didn't want/wouldn't have wanted to upset Great Aunty Kate by not having a funeral mass.") And, however grave your suspicions may be, you can't really quarrel with this; the NOK is almost certainly closer to the deceased than you are.

It's very, very unlikely that your asking this question is going to change the NOK's mind about what do to, and quite possible that it will cause a rift between you and the NOK.

There are some things you are not responsible for, and organising the funeral of someone to whom you are not next of kin is one of those things. You may feel that the person who is NOK is discharging that responsiblity well, or discharging it badly, but the range of action you can properly engage in is limited. You can (a) be supportive, helping them with what they have to do and giving them any guidance which you think they want and will find helpful. And there may be some opportunity their to help them decide to honour the deceased's wishes, rather than Great Aunty Kate's, if that is a conflict they are experiencing. Or you can (b) keep schtumm. Explicitly or implicitly criticising what they do, I'm afraid, is not on, even if the criticism is entirely justified. (Especially if the criticism is entirely justified!)

Worztron

ninja900 wrote: »

I doubt a will would do any good, is it going to be read before the funeral? Even if the next of kin are aware of the will and can get their hands on it straight away, there is nothing stopping one or more of them from keeping quiet about the funeral wishes part until it's too late and the 'catholic by default' ceremony is imposed.

I can see it now - some mealy-mouthed priest saying something like "He is with Jesus now..." -- Oh the madness!

Worztron

Dades wrote: »

Eh, no. Respect needs to be earned, and the Catholic Church certainly hasn't earned theirs much.

Will be interesting to see how much 'respect' is paid to the deceased's belief in this case.

Excellent point. The very fact that he was an atheist seems destined to be pushed aside by the unfortunate default catholic stance.

kylith

OP, all you can do is ask "Will John be having a humanist ceremony, since he wasn't religious?" If they then say that he's being given a Catholic send-off, officiated by the pope himself, there's nothing you can do about it.

Dades

Peregrinus wrote: »

But there is one circumstance where your will could be relevant; if you think your NOK will disrespect the wishes you have expressed to them regarding your funeral, you can leave them a bequest in the will conditional on their having respected your funeral directions, and make sure they know that you have done this. That gives them a powerful incentive to respect your wishes.

That is a delicious idea. I am filing that one away in the bottom drawer.

Kinski

Peregrinus wrote: »

you can leave them a bequest in the will conditional on their having respected your funeral directions, and make sure they know that you have done this. That gives them a powerful incentive to respect your wishes.

Does that still hold water legally if the deceased didn't make them aware of it? I can see some crotchety old people with no children of their own could have quite a lot fun imagining the look on their hated nephew's face when he finds out that the tidy sum his mad old uncle promised him was dependent on him organising a 21 gun salute for the funeral...the funeral that's already over.

Mark Hamill

seamus wrote: »

But you can have ceremonies without a body, so there's nothing stopping you from holding your own. Of course you don't do that because it's ridiculously insensitive and disrespectful to the family.

Is it not ridiculously insensitive and disrespectful of the family to have a christian funeral for someone who wasn't christian? What if he was muslim and they insisted on having a christian funeral? Would that not be disrespuctul of them.

Peregrinus

Kinski wrote: »

Does that still hold water legally if the deceased didn't make them aware of it? I can see some crotchety old people with no children of their own could have quite a lot fun imagining the look on their hated nephew's face when he finds out that the tidy sum his mad old uncle promised him was dependent on him organising a 21 gun salute for the funeral...the funeral that's already over.

Well, there's no point in including it in your will if you're not going to make people aware of it.

Yes, it would hold water, unless the condition attached is illegal, unconscionable or contrary to public policy. But if you attached a "surprise" condition that you not only failed to mention beforehand, but that was something the beneficiary couldn't reasonably have known or expected you have wanted, they might use that to challenge the entire will on the basis that you were obviously of unsound mind when you made it!

seamus

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Is it not ridiculously insensitive and disrespectful of the family to have a christian funeral for someone who wasn't christian? What if he was muslim and they insisted on having a christian funeral? Would that not be disrespuctul of them.

This is where the water gets muddy though. The deceased was nominally Catholic, presumably considered to be culturally Catholic, and from the OP's wording probably never told anyone he was atheist.

So in this case it's not exactly the same as holding a catholic burial for a muslim. From his family's POV they probably would say he was Catholic, therefore there's no inherent disrespect in them proceeding with a catholic burial.

If they knew of his leanings or he outright professed hatred of the catholic church, one would hope they'd have the sensitivity to see that a catholic burial would be inappropriate.

eviltwin

I have it drilled into my family that when I die I do not want anything remotely catholic at my funeral. I hope they will respect that and I would imagine my kids will, my only concern is my siblings making a big hoo hah out of it. I know I won't be here so its all moot what they do with me but its very important to me that my views on the church are respected and to an extent they are while I am here so why should it be any different just cause I'm not.

I suppose for some there is less hassle with a church funeral, people have to seek out alternatives, how much easier just to stick with what you know in a time of distress. But hopefully in time more options will be out there and it won't be as hard to arrange.

Peregrinus

eviltwin wrote: »

I have it drilled into my family that when I die I do not want anything remotely catholic at my funeral. I hope they will respect that and I would imagine my kids will, my only concern is my siblings making a big hoo hah out of it. I know I won't be here so its all moot what they do with me but its very important to me that my views on the church are respected and to an extent they are while I am here so why should it be any different just cause I'm not .

Your next of kin will be your spouse, if they survive you, and if they don’t then your kids, if they survive you. Only if your spouse, kids, grandkids and more remote descendants all die before you do will your siblings be your next of kin, and in a position to impose the funeral you don’t want. And hopefully that’s not going to happen.

If you think your kids will come under pressure from more distant family, you can strengthen their hand by writing down the wishes you have already discussed with them, and making sure they know your funeral instructions are on the top shelf of the dresser, in the unhappy event etc etc. Then your kids can wave this in the faces of your interfering relatives and tell them to sod off.

eviltwin wrote: »

I suppose for some there is less hassle with a church funeral, people have to seek out alternatives, how much easier just to stick with what you know in a time of distress. But hopefully in time more options will be out there and it won't be as hard to arrange.

May you be spared for many years, and hopefully by then there will be lots of options, and lots of experienced people to support your family in organising the funeral you want. But if you’re concerned that destiny approaches a bit more quickly than that, and you want to spare your kids the hassle you might think they would have in organising a non-religious funeral, you can talk to the Humanist Association of Ireland about what they can do in this regard, and you can talk to an undertaker with experience of humanist funerals, and make a few choices and specify them in the funeral directions that you leave on the top shelf of the dresser.

Mark Hamill

seamus wrote: »

This is where the water gets muddy though. The deceased was nominally Catholic, presumably considered to be culturally Catholic, and from the OP's wording probably never told anyone he was atheist.

So in this case it's not exactly the same as holding a catholic burial for a muslim. From his family's POV they probably would say he was Catholic, therefore there's no inherent disrespect in them proceeding with a catholic burial.

If they knew of his leanings or he outright professed hatred of the catholic church, one would hope they'd have the sensitivity to see that a catholic burial would be inappropriate.

Fair enough. Unless the OP returns and tells us the deceased's family was aware he was atheist, then what you say makes sense.

mathepac

I'd like to go back to a point raised in some preceding posts that seems to have been dismissed or ignored. The funeral rites in many cultures and religions serve a number of purposes including respecting and remembering the life of the departed person. Another important purpose they serve is for friends and family of the departed to gather in commemoration of that person to share memories, anecdotes and grief (or glee, as the case may be).

The rites and ceremonies of any belief system or religion are for the surviving family and friends and serve to give them a template for the ceremonies and a formal, well-practiced means of bidding farewell to the deceased. The "arrangements" can be safely left to 3rd-parties, funeral directors / clergy, so that the arranging doesn't impinge upon the loss and sorrow being experienced by the mourners.

Only an extreme control freak with a wish to exert malign influence and impose unnecessary hurt on survivors would insist on removing the comfort of the traditional rites from his family.

Typically, in this thread some atheists (already dead?) yet again want to impose their will on grieving families.

If you're an atheist, when you're dead you're dead. Whatever religious rites happen in and around your decomposing chemical remains once the life-force is extinguished cannot effect you - or can it, hence the hullabaloo?

Pherekydes

mathepac wrote: »

I'd like to go back to a point raised in some preceding posts that seems to have been dismissed or ignored. The funeral rites in many cultures and religions serve a number of purposes including respecting and remembering the life of the departed person. Another important purpose they serve is for friends and family of the departed to gather in commemoration of that person to share memories, anecdotes and grief (or glee, as the case may be).

The rites and ceremonies of any belief system or religion are for the surviving family and friends and serve to give them a template for the ceremonies and a formal, well-practiced means of bidding farewell to the deceased. The "arrangements" can be safely left to 3rd-parties, funeral directors / clergy, so that the arranging doesn't impinge upon the loss and sorrow being experienced by the mourners.

Only an extreme control freak with a wish to exert malign influence and impose unnecessary hurt on survivors would insist on removing the comfort of the traditional rites from his family.

Typically, in this thread some atheists (already dead?) yet again want to impose their will on grieving families.

If you're an atheist, when you're dead you're dead. Whatever religious rites happen in and around your decomposing chemical remains once the life-force is extinguished cannot effect you - or can it, hence the hullabaloo?

If you can have a legally binding will as to how your estate is divided up after you become a decomposing bag of chemicals, why can't you have a binding agreement as to how that bag of chemicals is disposed of?

As for myself, I intend to leave my body to science. I won't feel guilty about this because I'll be dead.

Nice try at the guilt trip, though. I wouldn't expect anything else from the religious.

seamus

Pherekydes wrote: »

If you can have a legally binding will as to how your estate is divided up after you become a decomposing bag of chemicals, why can't you have a binding agreement as to how that bag of chemicals is disposed of?

Afaik, a will only legally recognises the disbursement of one's assets, it does not give any legal power to acts you request. The Father Ted episode of the night in the crypt with the coffin, afaik is not something which is legally enforceable.

Thus, you can specify that your sister gets your house, but you can't demand that she never changes the layout of the house or never builds an extension. Once you pass the asset to the other individual, they are free to do whatever they please with it.
Such it is with the body. You can specify in your will who is to have charge of your body, but you cannot specify what they are allowed do with it.

Afaik; I could be totally wrong.

Worztron

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Fair enough. Unless the OP returns and tells us the deceased's family was aware he was atheist, then what you say makes sense.

He was atheist.

Worztron

Deleted User wrote: »

Wow that is very dis respectful to Catholics or any Christian who believes in God or Heaven.

One should respect all religions.

Shame on you !

What? For saying the truth?

Worztron

Deleted User wrote: »

In fact I find it downright disrespectful if he did not want any religious burial.

Seriously? Are you for real? Consider floating back to the christianity section. You are offering noting of worth to this thread.

mathepac

seamus wrote: »

... The Father Ted episode of the night in the crypt with the coffin, afaik is not something which is legally enforceable ...

@seamus good point.

@Pherekydes, take 100 lines: "Father Ted was not a documentary series", "Father Ted was not a documentary series" ...

Mark Hamill

Worztron wrote: »

He was atheist.

But was his family aware of that?

Hotblack Desiato

seamus wrote: »

This is where the water gets muddy though. The deceased was nominally Catholic, presumably considered to be culturally Catholic, and from the OP's wording probably never told anyone he was atheist.

This is why I want the option to opt out and make the RCC refuse a church funeral for me if they are asked!

mathepac wrote: »

Typically, in this thread some atheists (already dead?) yet again want to impose their will on grieving families.

Ah get up the yard.
Your dead right I do, it's MY funeral, just as MY wedding was not religous, and MY children were not baptised. I will not live my life to satisfy someone else's whims and I will not have any man in a dress stand up at my funeral to say how I am now 'back with Christ' :mad:

Rev Hellfire

Did he explicitly say he didn't want a Christian burial ?
Maybe as a atheist he just didn't care.

Hotblack Desiato

Unlikely don't you think?
Once the scales fall from your eyes, the RCC is not a pretty sight at all.

swampgas

mathepac wrote: »

@Pherekydes, take 100 lines: "Father Ted was not a documentary series", "Father Ted was not a documentary series" ...

In many ways though it was very close to the truth - that's why it was so funny. A bit like The Life of Brian, which wasn't a documentary either ...

Rev Hellfire

ninja900 wrote: »

Unlikely don't you think?

Not really, can't say I care either way.

Hotblack Desiato

Don't care but posted it anyway. Ok.

Rev Hellfire

ninja900 wrote: »

Don't care but posted it anyway. Ok.

Yes I did, well observed.

Dades

mathepac wrote: »

I'd like to go back to a point raised in some preceding posts that seems to have been dismissed or ignored. The funeral rites in many cultures and religions serve a number of purposes including respecting and remembering the life of the departed person. Another important purpose they serve is for friends and family of the departed to gather in commemoration of that person to share memories, anecdotes and grief (or glee, as the case may be).

The rites and ceremonies of any belief system or religion are for the surviving family and friends and serve to give them a template for the ceremonies and a formal, well-practiced means of bidding farewell to the deceased. The "arrangements" can be safely left to 3rd-parties, funeral directors / clergy, so that the arranging doesn't impinge upon the loss and sorrow being experienced by the mourners.

Only an extreme control freak with a wish to exert malign influence and impose unnecessary hurt on survivors would insist on removing the comfort of the traditional rites from his family.

Typically, in this thread some atheists (already dead?) yet again want to impose their will on grieving families.

If you're an atheist, when you're dead you're dead. Whatever religious rites happen in and around your decomposing chemical remains once the life-force is extinguished cannot effect you - or can it, hence the hullabaloo?

Are you for real??

Leaving aside the case in the OP for the moment - what you are suggesting is that people who have different beliefs should STFU and die without causing any hassle for the people left behind. Basically, nobody cares if you weren't catholic, lets outsource the arrangements to a priest who's never met the deceased, and who can drone on about stuff that would probably kill him again with frustration if he weren't dead already. I suppose you'd be fine suggesting that to an atheist terminal patient who had the gall to suggest he'd prefer not to be boxed up in a church?

Your response is symptomatic of the "catholic country" attitude that's been in the news recently.

Regarding the OP, nobody has suggested he charge in and take control. The bottom line is we don't have enough information on the deceased or his wishes to make any assumptions. The discussion has drifted around the idea of how people might get their funeral wishes fulfilled, though by the sound of it, you think dead people are selfish.

Turtwig

swampgas wrote: »

In many ways though it was very close to the truth - that's why it was so funny. A bit like The Life of Brian, which wasn't a documentary either ...

WHAT!!?:eek: