Becoming a waterkeeper

fisherking

Anyone have any experience of doing this thankless job ?
What powers are you granted ?
Is it worthwhile?
I am fed up of the illegal fishing and want to do something.....

jkchambers

A year or so ago IFI issued new requirements which were well over the top. IFI and the Dept are now preparing a new Inland Fisheries Bill which will take over from earlier Acts. They are looking at a complete overhaul of protection and it is more that probable the a Fisheries Protection Reserve of anglers will be established something along the lines of the Garda Reserve. I wouldnt expect the new Act to be passed for a year. IFI plan to hold information meetings on the heads of the new bill in 2 months.

fisherking

Thanks for this
I think I'll apply under the existing system and jump through the hoops
Something needs to be done....

jkchambers wrote: »

A year or so ago IFI issued new requirements which were well over the top. IFI and the Dept are now preparing a new Inland Fisheries Bill which will take over from earlier Acts. They are looking at a complete overhaul of protection and it is more that probable the a Fisheries Protection Reserve of anglers will be established something along the lines of the Garda Reserve. I wouldnt expect the new Act to be passed for a year. IFI plan to hold information meetings on the heads of the new bill in 2 months.

danbrosnan

Heres a little video of how water keepers can be treated!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMuQwDiEU0

Zzippy

jkchambers wrote: »

A year or so ago IFI issued new requirements which were well over the top. IFI and the Dept are now preparing a new Inland Fisheries Bill which will take over from earlier Acts. They are looking at a complete overhaul of protection and it is more that probable the a Fisheries Protection Reserve of anglers will be established something along the lines of the Garda Reserve. I wouldnt expect the new Act to be passed for a year. IFI plan to hold information meetings on the heads of the new bill in 2 months.

Why do you think they're well over the top John? Private waterkeepers are being given a warrant which grants them legal powers, surely its only right that they should be vetted before being given this authority. IFI, and the government, would be leaving themselves open to legal action, and disrepute, if they were to give out warrants to anyone who wanted them.

danbrosnan

Zzippy wrote: »

Why do you think they're well over the top John? Private waterkeepers are being given a warrant which grants them legal powers, surely its only right that they should be vetted before being given this authority. IFI, and the government, would be leaving themselves open to legal action, and disrepute, if they were to give out warrants to anyone who wanted them.

I agree they should be vetted...

jkchambers

Zzippy wrote: »

Why do you think they're well over the top John? Private waterkeepers are being given a warrant which grants them legal powers, surely its only right that they should be vetted before being given this authority. IFI, and the government, would be leaving themselves open to legal action, and disrepute, if they were to give out warrants to anyone who wanted them.

The Act says that the District Judge appoints waterkeepers not IFI. IFI`s sole job is to say whether they are suitable for the job or notor not. In this regard it would be fine for IFI to do Garda vetting and see whether they have been convicted under any fisheries acts or bye laws. I really dont think that it should be necessary to provide IFI with insurance, maps of waters you will be covering, regular reports reports etc etc

Zzippy

jkchambers wrote: »

The Act says that the District Judge appoints waterkeepers not IFI. IFI`s sole job is to say whether they are suitable for the job or notor not. In this regard it would be fine for IFI to do Garda vetting and see whether they have been convicted under any fisheries acts or bye laws. I really dont think that it should be necessary to provide IFI with insurance, maps of waters you will be covering, regular reports reports etc etc

Yes, the district judge appoints the waterkeeper but IFI issues the warrant.
As for IFI deciding if they are suitable or not, surely suitability includes being insured, so that if the waterkeeper oversteps his authority and causes damage/physical harm, IFI is not liable. Maps are an obvious requirement - waterkeepers can only be appointed on waters they have an interest in (are members of a club or are fishery owners themselves) so maps are needed to show the extent of the fishery they wish to be warranted on. Many rivers and lakes have identical or similar names, even in the same area, so maps are needed to differentiate.
I have never heard of waterkeepers being required to report regularly.
There have been cases where people have applied to become waterkeepers on fisheries that were not controlled by their club - where their club was in dispute with the private owner. Imagine the chaos if they suddenly popped up on the private stretch, hassling guests every 5 minutes for licences and permits. If they had just named the river, rather than providing a map, it would have been impossible for IFI or the judge to tell where exactly they wanted to police.
I accept that most people who apply are bona fide, and have no malicious intentions. but vetting and rigorous examination of each application is required to make sure that only people with the right intentions are allowed to become waterkeepers. It is a legal power being granted to these people after all. For what its worth, I think they should also be required to undergo training and pass an exam on their powers and fisheries law, before they are given a warrant too.

jkchambers

IFI do not issue the warrant. Below is a link to section 294 of the 1959 act. You can see that basically anyone can appoint anyone. I could even appoint myself
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1959/en/act/pub/0014/sec0294.html#sec294
This is the way that the letter of appointment is to be laid out
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1959/en/act/pub/0014/sched6.html#sched6
Warrant cards are issued by IFI to "authorised persons". These would be IFI staff.
In the 1991 it was added that the applicant needed a letter of suitability from his local regional fisheries board which he produced to the judge along with his letter of appointment. This was actually brought in because of a letter I sent to the Minister on behalf of the Irish Federation of Pike Angling Clubs. We had come across a situation where 2 poachers had appointed each other waterkeepers so that if caught with nets they could say that they had just seized them.
There is nothing in the act to say that IFI need to know the waters, have insurance etc. As I said it is the District Court Judge who appoints waterkeepers not IFI
Fisheries Amendment Act 1991
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/act/pub/0026/print.html#sec17

declanreil

leave it to the professionals is what i say...garda reserve doesnt work..and bailiffs clearly dont work.. list of prosecutions anyone?!?

Anglers be very clear-DO NOT take instruction from anyone who comes up with a piece of paper saying they are a bailiff..i have seen incidents on rivers in the west where mainly english people ( who are living in ireland) have flexxed their muscle on locals.. If they dont have photo identification ignore them. They are nobodies!

In theory the waterkeeper idea sounds good.. I think the underlying issue is well healed dubliners ,some local vigilantees who probably dont work, and have time to annoy people on the bank of a river wanting to undermine state responsibility for the rivers and lakes.

the more waterkeepers that are created the less need for professional state staff.

The bailiffs are accountable to no-one, and should be abolished.

I work in a local authority..we have volunteers from tidy towns etc helping us..that is different to bailiffs enforcing the law.

Anyone enforcing the law on Irish rivers should be paid to do so by the state..not some west brit / or local vigilante!

jkchambers

I posted earlier that the whole system is about to change. A new Fisheries Bill is being drawn up which will abolish the current waterkeeper system and introduce a from of fisheries protection reserve force. IFI will be holding public consultation meetings on the new bill in May and June.
Below is a link to a list of requirements IFI drew up in 2011 which prospective waterkeepers were required to comply with before IFI would give them their letter of suitability. Way over the top !!
http://www.angling-in-ireland.com/forum-old/viewtopic.php?t=8510&sid=6035f32cad53645f21b27e5436d2d20f

declanreil

just had a quick look at this..this is exactly what is needed..its a professional job after all..this will weed out any tom ,dick and jim.. i agree with minimising bailiffs locations..imagine having these people running up and down the country with their piece of paper terrorising genuine anglers.at least if they only operate out of a small region the powers that be can keep an eye on them! again i say-leave it to the paid staff..help them and dont try to undermine them.

jkchambers

declanreil wrote: »

just had a quick look at this..this is exactly what is needed..its a professional job after all..this will weed out any tom ,dick and jim.. i agree with minimising bailiffs locations..imagine having these people running up and down the country with their piece of paper terrorising genuine anglers.at least if they only operate out of a small region the powers that be can keep an eye on them! again i say-leave it to the paid staff..help them and dont try to undermine them.

It will all be meaningless in a year when the new system comes in. If an angler is good enough to be appointed over one water is he not good enough to be appointed over all waters ? Nobody is trying to undermine the paid staff. The problem is that there just isnt anything like enough of them.

declanreil

i heard they are taking on some temps in Galway for the summer..but full timers are whats needed.

regarding the jurisdiction of a waterkeeper-they cannot be just let loose to roam the countryside on their own (i presume that the garda reserve lads are stuck to a station /town etc) ..does the new plans mean that these 'reservists' will be shadowing the full time fisheries staff??

Zzippy

jkchambers wrote: »

It will all be meaningless in a year when the new system comes in. If an angler is good enough to be appointed over one water is he not good enough to be appointed over all waters ? Nobody is trying to undermine the paid staff. The problem is that there just isnt anything like enough of them.

John, the situation I posted earlier is why waterkeepers should not be appointed to all waters. Let's say you own or manage a private fishery on the River Moy, for example. A few local lads used to fish your stretch, until you started enforcing the permit. They didn't like this, so got themselves appointed waterkeepers, nominated by the local club. If they were appointed to all waters, they would be free to come onto your stretch and hassle your paying guests as much as they pleased. This exact situation almost happened in the last 2 years, except the judge listened to the private owner and IFI and refused to approve them for that part of the river in question.

fisherking

Anyone any examples of when doing this job felt worthwhile?

jkchambers

At present the waterkeeper set up is used mainly by game clubs and waterkeepers are appointed over club waters. I come from a pike/coarse background where clubs generally dont have their own water. I could be fishing a pike water in Cavan one day and one in Roscommon the next. I want to help protect these waters from poachers.
I would imaging under the new system IFI will properly vet applicants, train them and they will work closely with local IFI protection staff. If one goes over the top IFI can immediately fire him. I would see this as a much better system

danbrosnan

The biggest problem with water keepers is that 99% of poaching goes on in the hours of darkness.... Insurance is the problem...

danbrosnan

fisherking wrote: »

Anyone any examples of when doing this job felt worthwhile?

Can i ask you question how are you gonna become a water keeper?

jkchambers

danbrosnan wrote: »

The biggest problem with water keepers is that 99% of poaching goes on in the hours of darkness.... Insurance is the problem...

Poaching pike and coarse fish goes on all the time. Last weekend , during the day,2 NNs in a dingy were seen several times serviving longlines 500m upsteam of Shannonbridge. There are regular poachers at this location. I week hardly goes by that I dont get daytime reports of poachers out. It may be different with salmon poachers

danbrosnan

jkchambers wrote: »

Poaching pike and coarse fish goes on all the time. Last weekend , during the day,2 NNs in a dingy were seen several times serviving longlines 500m upsteam of Shannonbridge. There are regular poachers at this location. I week hardly goes by that I dont get daytime reports of poachers out. It may be different with salmon poachers

Very sorry i don't got no experience with course fish down here in kerry tbh... i know first hand that pike are being wiped out... i have friends from france who come to mayo every year and have told me some horror stories...

One story was milk trailers being used to transport big pike across the continent from lakes in mayo....

I think the overall problem is that not just this government but every government that Ireland has ever had have not fully understood the commodity that Ireland has with regard to fishing... Its a disgrace whats going on...

Mr Bumble

Water-keepers work well in a club context when everyone knows everyone else and any bull**** will be stamped on rapidly. There is always the possibility of someone acting out a vendetta but I don't really think that this is widespread or even an occasional thing. Surely the limit to harassment in that situation is to ask for permits and once produced, they have no reason to be there. If they returned and asked for permits again from the same people, that would be unacceptable and easily resolved with a call to IFI, the Gardai.
I do acknowledge that on some of our best rivers, pools and even lakes in the west and elsewhere, there's a good chance that you'll be faced by some English grandee with delusions and a land deed but that's another debate altogether. IMO, the more water-keepers the better. These are tough times and many salmon poachers who hung up their nets in the boom time are out in the rivers again. The more eyes and ears out there the better and especially if they have teeth.

Bizzum

jkchambers wrote: »

 week hardly goes by that I dont get daytime reports of poachers out. It may be different with salmon poachers

Are you still getting as many since the introduction of the 'hotline'?

jkchambers

Bizzum wrote: »

Are you still getting as many since the introduction of the 'hotline'?

I wouldnt think so but a lot of anglers have forgotten the hotline number. I think it could be relaunched. I may put it up on the 5 or 6 angling message board to remind anglers

danbrosnan

Mr Bumble wrote: »

If they returned and asked for permits again from the same people, that would be unacceptable and easily resolved with a call to IFI, the Gardai.
I do acknowledge that on some of our best rivers, pools and even lakes in the west and elsewhere, there's a good chance that you'll be faced by some English grandee with delusions and a land deed but that's another debate altogether.

First of all gardai can not deal with fishery related incidents.... Like poaching and fishing without permits is entirely the problem of the fishery officer... With regard to the private fisheries that you mentioned, i am pretty sure the landlords that do own them, actually own them and the water keeper employed by the landlord has all the rights....

People do not not actually realise the poaching thats going on, its on an enormous scale, and my point earlier was that if you what to catch poaching you got to be willing to work hard, if people think its just a case of walking the river bank looking for permits they are sadly mistaken...

Zzippy

danbrosnan wrote: »

First of all gardai can not deal with fishery related incidents.... Like poaching and fishing without permits is entirely the problem of the fishery officer... With regard to the private fisheries that you mentioned, i am pretty sure the landlords that do own them, actually own them and the water keeper employed by the landlord has all the rights....

People do not not actually realise the poaching thats going on, its on an enormous scale, and my point earlier was that if you what to catch poaching you got to be willing to work hard, if people think its just a case of walking the river bank looking for permits they are sadly mistaken...

Under the law, gardai are also empowered as fishery officers. Unfortunately, 99% of them (the ones who don't fish) don't know this, and haven't a clue of fisheries law. It wasn't on the curriculum in Templemore when gardai were still being recruited and trained there.

danbrosnan

Zzippy wrote: »

Under the law, gardai are also empowered as fishery officers. Unfortunately, 99% of them (the ones who don't fish) don't know this, and haven't a clue of fisheries law. It wasn't on the curriculum in Templemore when gardai were still being recruited and trained there.

Didn't know that, always in the past when the gardai were contacted regarding fishery related incidents it was instantly passed on the fishery officers...

I actually taught that fishery officers had more power then gardai in certain aspects of the law??

Zzippy

danbrosnan wrote: »

Didn't know that, always in the past when the gardai were contacted regarding fishery related incidents it was instantly passed on the fishery officers...

I actually taught that fishery officers had more power then gardai in certain aspects of the law??

That's because the vast majority either don't know anything about fisheries law, or don't want to be bothered. Fishery officers do have fairly serious powers in some respects, such as stop-and-search, powers of entry onto premises, power to confiscate equipment up to and including vehicles. I was in Templemore last year and a garda there was surprised how many powers are available to fishery officers alright, then he realised that they are also available to him under the fisheries acts.

Mr Bumble

"With regard to the private fisheries that you mentioned, i am pretty sure the landlords that do own them, actually own them and the water keeper employed by the landlord has all the rights...."
If the owner has a genuine claim to the fishing rights which can be substantiated in law, of course he has all the rights. But you would be amazed at how many 'landlords' claim rights which they do not own...the most famous recent case was the Lismore Estate which claimed berthing rights in Youghal harbour which the local COuncil would like to dispute but can't afford to.. http://www.youghalonline.com/tag/prince-charles/ .
You should know this Dan from your own neck of the woods. No fishery officer will confront anyone on the Cummeragh for anything other than the State licence because they know well that ownership of a major chunk of the river is so complicated that it would be impossible to make anything stick. ..
The point I was making was that anyone appointed a waterkeeper who checks the same person's permit more than once in a day on a beat where there's only two people fishing and is clearly acting the mick would have a problem if an objection was lodged either with the IFI or the GArdai....acting the bollix is acting the bollix...
Off topic, plenty of big salmon coming out of Currane at the moment......another one today in the middle of a storm....mate of mine took the boat out for a few hours and took a 10lb fish...water spouts, mini-tornadoes...the lot

danbrosnan

I ws back in Waterville a couple of weeks back... I was fishing a comp with the Waterville anglers on reanmore beach and i went in to the fishing tackle shop and the owner told me that the cummeragh had gone up in price for day permits...

I am still baffled at that as i cannot see many people fishing at all and especially if prices have gone up...

Mr Bumble

yeah.....lot of messing going on there......nothing new........i sit in the boat and mostly mind my own business.....but i keep the ears open ......from what i know of him, owner is sound. Knows his bass better than anyone i've ever met....not great at it myself.....prefer the lake!!
cummeragh's no good with a fly anymore because of the weed. Still a great river with the worm but it will be poached if nobody fishes it.....from what i know, the state owns a lot of it but the rights have lapsed.......the whole waterville/inny valley could be something else if they all got together but too many agendas