Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

L1011

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If Aer Lingus/Aer Arann were to restart the route then passengers get buses from aircraft to terminal whch can take some time at DUB.

They're not limited to permanently using the non-contact gates in the 30s terminal. Particularly as they used to use the contact stands on Pier A in times past - as Loganair currently do for their CFN service.

Jamie2k9

MYOB wrote: »

They're not limited to permanently using the non-contact gates in the 30s terminal. Particularly as they used to use the contact stands on Pier A in times past - as Loganair currently do for their CFN service.

They get better rates for busing passengers.

Con Logue

markpb wrote: »

Dublin airport is a strange beast - there are time when security is inexplicably slow but most of the time, the security queues at T2 are about five minutes. My wife commuted to/from London for some time last year and between online check-in and no checked luggage, she could arrive at the airport half an hour before departure and be comfortably on time.

And of course, some people live close to the airport (we lived a fifteen minute bus trip away) so claiming that getting to the airport is a disincentive is equally true for Conolly or any bus gate.

That's said, I'm not sure it'll ever truly compete with rail or bus - it would always have been a niche player.

Not wanting to side track things, but my experiences with travelling on a monthly basis via FR to and from Bristol and Luton over a three year period put me off Terminal 1 (and FR) permanently. Christ the tediousness. I would pay extra to go BA or EI from T2 now.

foggy_lad

Richard Logue wrote: »

I'm not so sure foggy. There have been fare promotions across the IC network before and I am certain there will be again.

We know the passenger numbers went up when the fares were lower, but the one area that IE don't seem to capitalise on is non stop trains to the key destinations Cork, Galway, Belfast and Dublin.

Back in the 70s there were some non stop trains from Dublin to Cork and Belfast and vice versa, maybe there should be some more, timed to ensure that business travellers get to these cities before 9am?

Ok as far as promotions go they are not enough, Fares need to be walk up fares s they are on the buses and to compete Dublin City Centre-Cork (including the luas/bus add-on) needs to be under €40 return, Galway needs to be under €30 return, Waterford €20 and Carlow €12 return, When a new operator starts non-stop buses to Limerick fares to Limerick will need to be dropped also.

Non-stop trains won't work unless you can persuade all the travellers going the full distance to travel on one or two trains per day or maybe two trains can be sent, one a stopping service and one non-stop. looking at the buses to Cork and Galway there is demand at very unusual times which will never be catered for by IE due to the extra costs involved. but there is also sustained demand throughout the day rather than just the peak time buses.

If IE shift to serving non-stop passengers they will lose most of their passengers who are not going end to end but are travelling shorter distances along the route and when these people/areas are not being served there is less fares/ less passengers and less reason for the railway.

Non stop peak time trains are a good idea but not at the expense of the bread and butter services and as we all know two trains can't run side by side on single track.

devnull

T1 security is abysmal in the mornings, since they moved the entrance to the side of the terminal - very often there is only three or four lanes in operation and in the mornings it's taking approx 30 minutes to get through on most occasions, twice in the last 18 months it's took me almost 45 minutes.

Losty Dublin

Con Logue wrote: »

There are structural problems with the airport as serious option for Dublin to Cork - getting to DUB, queueing for security, queueing to get on, getting off at the other end and going from ORK to Cork itself. Tick tock the lot of it.

Whatever about the odd delay you'd get from trains and buses being late, neither of them are subject to the risk of unpredictable delays in getting on and off your mode of travel or walking a distance to get to your seat.

bk

Richard Logue wrote: »

Ben you, bk and foggy_lad thanked Grandeeod for this post earlier in the thread so it is somewhat misleading to claim no one was advocating the end of Inter City rail travel.

Richard, yes I thanked his post, that is because I agreed with most of it, in particular the first two paragraphs, but not necessarily all of the last.

He is right, Ireland is a very small country, the only reason trains were previously successful was because the roads were awful, but now that we have a very good Motorway network, it has shown up how inadequate our rail service is and the years of over investment.

He is also right the question that even if we had the money (we don't) should we spend it on some post motorway high speed network like other countries. I personally agree with him, that we simply don't have the population size, density or demographics to justify that.

I disagree that intercity rail should be closed down. Instead Irish Rail need to focus on reducing their costs, thus allowing them to reduce ticket prices and drive take up.

As Foggy says "promotions" are no good, nor is booking days in advance to get cheaper tickets. Walk up fares need to be permanently max €40 return to Cork, preferably €30. Again follow the Netherlands model.

Grandeeod

Richard Logue wrote: »

Ben you, bk and foggy_lad thanked Grandeeod for this post earlier in the thread so it is somewhat misleading to claim no one was advocating the end of Inter City rail travel.

As to Beeching, had his second report been accepted by the British Railways Board the GB Inter City network would have been reduced to a rump of what it is today.

Slow down Richard! My post was explosive, yes, but more an attempt to stimulate debate. It has done that, but subsequent posts of mine have clarified my position in an attempt to stop any hysteria. Obviously they have gone ignored.

Do not use my original post as a weapon to beat others because you yourself have already "liked" subsequent posts that I made clarifying my position.

Grandeeod

Richard Logue wrote: »

Back in the 70s there were some non stop trains from Dublin to Cork and Belfast and vice versa, maybe there should be some more, timed to ensure that business travellers get to these cities before 9am?

Oh dear! Maybe I've been reading this forum too long. Maybe I have read the original P11 website and forum for too long also! The whole "before 9am" thing was discussed to death as far back as 2003. It was actually derided then in an era of massive investment. Now that the **** has splattered onto the fan, I find it amusing that valid opinion in the early noughties is now being rolled out again.

You are right of course, but I tend to get a little pissed off, when I read it again 10 years later. Many of the solutions required to develop our rail network, were proposed by P11, but abandoned by its current guise. I've no affiliation except for following developments, but I have to say that a lot of the content on their original site has more meaning now than it did then. I've come to the party a little late, but really do appreciate what they tried to do. I am only saying this because in the present situation, their originality back then seems more relevant than ever. As a moderate observer I have no problem paying them the credit they deserve.

I assume there is a problem with the whole P11 thing on this site, just from years of reading. I don't have any time for the current RUI incarnation. My opinions on this forum have evolved from the P11 juggernaut, that caught my attention years ago with its straight to the point and from the hip opinion.

Perhaps if they had maintained some momentum they would be ideally placed to represent the network now in the face of financial restraints and a period of uncertainty.

Con Logue

Grandeeod wrote: »

Oh dear! Maybe I've been reading this forum too long. Maybe I have read the original P11 website and forum for too long also! The whole "before 9am" thing was discussed to death as far back as 2003. It was actually derided then in an era of massive investment. Now that the **** has splattered onto the fan, I find it amusing that valid opinion in the early noughties is now being rolled out again.

You are right of course, but I tend to get a little pissed off, when I read it again 10 years later. Many of the solutions required to develop our rail network, were proposed by P11, but abandoned by its current guise. I've no affiliation except for following developments, but I have to say that a lot of the content on their original site has more meaning now than it did then. I've come to the party a little late, but really do appreciate what they tried to do. I am only saying this because in the present situation, their originality back then seems more relevant than ever. As a moderate observer I have no problem paying them the credit they deserve.

I assume there is a problem with the whole P11 thing on this site, just from years of reading. I don't have any time for the current RUI incarnation. My opinions on this forum have evolved from the P11 juggernaut, that caught my attention years ago with its straight to the point and from the hip opinion.

Perhaps if they had maintained some momentum they would be ideally placed to represent the network now in the face of financial restraints and a period of uncertainty.

Maybe I spent too long out of Ireland and have lost the ability to "get" certain posting styles on Boards, but I do struggle with the idea that anyone could be "pissed off" that there was a discussion on another internet forum over ten years ago, and that was the end of the matter.

I recall P11 as an attempt to square modern railway practice with objections to the railway as such from the likes of TCD's Sean Barrett - who if he had been listened to, and he did have a lot of support in the Sindo and elsewhere - would have destroyed Dublin by maintaining low density sprawl in the greater Dublin area, the old four houses to the acre densities, and removing the railways altogether in favour of the Eastern Bypass. Los Angeles would have had nothing on us. Kevin Myers used to pontificate in the Times and the Indo about crack brained schemes such as turning the intercity network into roads, forgetting about the relative footprint of a mainly single track network in relation to the land grab necessary for any road.

I am sure plenty of farmers, road hauliers and private bus owners salivated at the prospect of getting all this gravy from the dismantling of the rail network and probably still do.

Where I am coming from is fairly simple - I want the railway to continue to play a role in transit in this country. Hand in hand with that in terms of planning greater densities need to be done in urban areas up and down the country, and combat the issue of rural sprawl. We will have a huge problem in a few years time when we will have an army of isolated eighty-somethings in mansions in bogs up and down the country unable to drive anymore.

Big Bad An Taisce may not be so big and bad - they aren't messing about when they talk about unsustainable development - but one of the national characteristics of this place is short term personal gain at the expense of the greater good. We don't seem to do Society any better than Margaret Thatcher did. But perhaps too many vested interests are threatened if we attempted to do joined up urban/rural planning and related transport planning for the best fit for private cars and public transport.

Not all the rail network will be sustainable - the North and South Tipperary lines are increasingly marginal unless in the unlikely event the locals decide to use them, and the lousy planning of the WRC - where in my view the biggest farce was not having an urban regeneration policy hand in hand with provision of new stations in order to have a sustainable customer base for the line - but to even suggest that we can throw any more of the railway away is perverse. The existence of the railway only affects those who want to make a bit more money on its absence.

Richard Logue

Folks there's clearly a lot of passion out there and all due credit to grandeeod and bk for the constructive things they have said in their posts here.

There seems to be somewhat of a consensus that the status quo in our railways needs to be changed. I think we are yet to see what will happen to IE now that the company is being split and open access kicks off.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

And trains diesel engines emit the same fumes.

Trains have the advantage that fully electric zero emissions systems are available right now, and have been for quite some time.

nokia69

n97 mini wrote: »

Trains have the advantage that fully electric zero emissions systems are available right now, and have been for quite some time.

and it won't be long before we see fully electric buses

corktina

both of which emit their emissions at the point of origin (power station, wind generator factoy [plus transport across the world,) etc.

Losty Dublin

nokia69 wrote: »

and it won't be long before we see fully electric buses

Been and gone, actually. Belfast had it's trolley bus system and many cities worldwide still use them. There are a few battery powered buses on test as well but they are literally a few.

n97 mini

corktina wrote: »

both of which emit their emissions at the point of origin (power station, wind generator factoy [plus transport across the world,) etc.

This related specifically to harmful emissions from diesel engines, most of which are created from the way diesel engines work (ignition by compression).

n97 mini

nokia69 wrote: »

and it won't be long before we see fully electric buses

Electric coaches?

corktina

n97 mini wrote: »

This related specifically to harmful emissions from diesel engines, most of which are created from the way diesel engines work (ignition by compression).

it's no less true though. Diesel engines are getting much greener nowadays, progressively so. I think batt.ery disposal will be more harmful to the enviroment , almost as much as the polution caused building power sattions and wind farms

A long way off topic now...

Rocky Bay

And to bring the topic just a little further off...in todays N.Y. Times: Fueling Up for the Long Hall. The Trucking Industry Is Set to Expand Its Use of Natural Gas. By Diane Cardwell and Clifford Kraus in the Business Day section- 23/4/13. " This month, Cummins, a leading engine manufacturer, began shipping big, new engines that make long runs on natural gas possible. A skeletal network of refueling stations at dozens of truck stops stands ready".

steamengine

There is nothing green about diesel fuel as the major component of its exhaust gas is Carbon Dioxide (CO2) which is one the main gases responsible for global warming. As Diesel is a hydro-carbon fuel the production of CO2 is unavoidable.

corktina

and power stitaons produce what? angel delight?

steamengine

This country has a wind energy target of 40% of total energy produced - while not earth shattering it's certainly good news. Currently we produce around 15%, so a start has been made. So that's less 'angel's delight' out of the power stations' stacks.

Theoretically then we will reach a stage where rail could be powered 40% by wind including InterCity if the investment was made to electrify. Dart and Luas are already equipped. So in effect are our 'Nissan Leafs' and other makes of electric cars.

L1011

steamengine wrote: »

Theoretically then we will reach a stage where rail could be powered 40% by wind including InterCity if the investment was made to electrify. Dart and Luas are already equipped. So in effect are our 'Nissan Leafs' and other makes of electric cars.

Powered 40% by wind 60% of the time, and by extremely inefficient quick-spool gas turbines the other 40%. And unlike a Leaf where people make claims about them being able to only charge when the power's green/cheap (and then the same person on here who frequently champions that then admits they pre-heat the car every morning in the morning peak of power consumption, oops); trains need instantenous power.

Nuclear...

Rocky Bay

I would ask all to remember that wind power comes at a price......a large amount of dead birds.

Cool Mo D

Rocky Bay wrote: »

I would ask all to remember that wind power comes at a price......a large amount of dead birds.

Wind turbines kill some birds, but with any sort of planning the danger is negligible.

Newer wind turbines are also more efficient and safer for birds.

On the scale of serious threats to bird populations, and there are many, wind turbines do not even register.

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

Powered 40% by wind 60% of the time, and by extremely inefficient quick-spool gas turbines the other 40%. And unlike a Leaf where people make claims about them being able to only charge when the power's green/cheap (and then the same person on here who frequently champions that then admits they pre-heat the car every morning in the morning peak of power consumption, oops); trains need instantenous power.

Nuclear...

Who says they preheat their car every single morning? I find your claim unbelievable since even in Ireland, we don't have freezing cold weather all the time.

L1011

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They get better rates for busing passengers.

They're moving to T2 lock stock and barrel so it appears that they're willing to suck up the higher rates for not bussing.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056933871

This makes the transfer time for feeder flights a fraction of what it was.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Who says they preheat their car every single morning? I find your claim unbelievable since even in Ireland, we don't have freezing cold weather all the time.

There's significantly less grid demand on warmer mornings. I notice you haven't tried to tackle that, seeing as it makes the "my car uses excess power" argument more than a little bit damaged

Jamie2k9

MYOB wrote: »

They're moving to T2 lock stock and barrel so it appears that they're willing to suck up the higher rates for not bussing.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056933871

This makes the transfer time for feeder flights a fraction of what it was.



There's significantly less grid demand on warmer mornings. I notice you haven't tried to tackle that, seeing as it makes the "my car uses excess power" argument more than a little bit damaged

Moving to T2 dosn't mean bus transfers will be stopped, it will save the bus from T1 to T2 for US connecting passegners. There is no stands at T2 for ATR aircraft...this will save staffing costs and the walk for some US passengers.

L1011

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Moving to T2 dosn't mean bus transfers will be stopped, it will save the bus from T1 to T2 for US connecting passegners. There is no stands at T2 for ATR aircraft...

There are. Look at the stoplines

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

There's significantly less grid demand on warmer mornings. I notice you haven't tried to tackle that, seeing as it makes the "my car uses excess power" argument more than a little bit damaged

You made a claim and I called you out on that claim. You're not backing up your claim, avoiding it completely. So I can take it your claim that someone preheats their Nissan Leaf every single day as bogus. That's all I wanted, thanks

Jamie2k9

MYOB wrote: »

There are. Look at the stoplines

They will be check in, security and boarding the buses at T2 not aircraft just like the set up in T1.

L1011

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

You made a claim and I called you out on that claim. You're not backing up your claim, avoiding it completely. So I can take it your claim that someone preheats their Nissan Leaf every single day as bogus. That's all I wanted, thanks

I said every peak day.

L1011

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They will be check in, security and boarding the buses at T2 not aircraft just like the set up in T1.

I cant see buses crossing the entire infield and cutting across all piers. Reduced rates are for using the noncontact gates, not for bussing to main gates

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

I said every peak day.

MYOB wrote: »

Powered 40% by wind 60% of the time, and by extremely inefficient quick-spool gas turbines the other 40%. And unlike a Leaf where people make claims about them being able to only charge when the power's green/cheap (and then the same person on here who frequently champions that then admits they pre-heat the car every morning in the morning peak of power consumption, oops); trains need instantenous power.

Nuclear...

Bold added by myself to highlight relevant part.

Polar101

markpb wrote: »

Dublin airport is a strange beast - there are time when security is inexplicably slow but most of the time, the security queues at T2 are about five minutes.

I did Dublin-Cork-Dublin once with Ryanair (€6 return - nothing has beaten that fare yet), the funny thing about that was that you could actually skip the security queues at Dublin airport, as domestic flights have (or had in 2009) a different gate for security checks. It still took well over two hours to get from where I live in Dublin to Cork City Centre.

---

But obviously air travel isn't the future of the Dublin-Cork route, at least not the near future. While I'd prefer to travel by train - I don't drive - if i had to travel the route often, I'd just buy a car.

L1011

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Bold added by myself to highlight relevant part.

Yes, and?

Jamie2k9

MYOB wrote: »

I cant see buses crossing the entire infield and cutting across all piers.

They may get to use some of the cargo area and there are some stands opposite T2 stands with ATR marks so if they are used I don't think they will allow pax to walk. Will see if some EI staff know more lather.

dowlingm

Electric cars are a gimmick which allows some people to drive single occupancy Tesla Roadsters 2 hours a day with expensive and tricky to mine rare earths inside and imagine they are saving the planet while the SIMI are laughing all the way to the bank.

Electrification of intercity rail or coach involves stringing a lot of wire which in urban areas would be carrying 10 if not 100 times more passengers. If you want to displace diesel while carrying people, LUAS from Line A to Lucan (i.e. LUAS F1), DART to Maynooth, faster DARTs beyond Malahide, fewer buses to "An Lar" and more shuttles to the electric modes off peak, *maybe* some electric articulated bus BRTs in Cork or other cities but I'm doubtful, is where it's at.

LXFlyer

I'm afraid that I can't see the ATRs suddenly using the T2 stands all day either MYOB.

Perhaps at certain quieter times yes, but as it is there is insufficient space for the entire Aer Lingus Dublin based fleet to operate from T2 overnight, with up to half a dozen aircraft departing from gates 300 (old pier in T1.

The primary benefit will be all handling being done in T2, but I suspect that bussing will remain a reality for many of the flights.

nokia69

dowlingm wrote: »

Electric cars are a gimmick which allows some people to drive single occupancy Tesla Roadsters 2 hours a day with expensive and tricky to mine rare earths inside and imagine they are saving the planet while the SIMI are laughing all the way to the bank.

nope, this is just wrong, the roadster is now out of production Tesla are now building the model S, look it up on youtube, it not a gimmick they will sell 20K of them this year and even more next year, the future of the car is battery electric there is now little doubt of that

its only a matter of time before we see intercity electric buses, there will be electric buses on the cork to dublin route long before irish rail have electric trains

BTW electric motors can be built without using rare earths, as far as I know Tesla don't use rare earths in their motors

n97 mini

The power source for electric trains can be anything, and has the potential to not include fossil fuels at all.

Opinion is split, but wind power is a whole other debate.

n97 mini

nokia69 wrote: »

nope, this is just wrong, the roadster is now out of production Tesla are now building the model S, look it up on youtube, it not a gimmick they will sell 20K of them this year and even more next year, the future of the car is battery electric there is now little doubt of that

its only a matter of time before we see intercity electric buses, there will be electric buses on the cork to dublin route long before irish rail have electric trains

BTW electric motors can be built without using rare earths, as far as I know Tesla don't use rare earths in their motors

Getting OT again here, but rare earth magnets are typically neodymium, which is not rare, so the name is misleading.

Re Tesla, if you watch Revenge of the Electric Car (it's on Netflix) which is largely pro the electric car, Tesla is in chronic debt, and I wouldn't be so sure they'll be here in 5 years time. That's not to say the electric car won't tho.

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

Re Tesla, if you watch Revenge of the Electric Car (it's on Netflix) which is largely pro the electric car, Tesla is in chronic debt, and I wouldn't be so sure they'll be here in 5 years time. That's not to say the electric car won't tho.

Things have changed radically for Tesla since that documentary was made. Their new car the Tesla S has been a massive success and is selling very well. Tesla is expected to make a profit this quarter and has agreed to repay it's federal loan early (they save on interest payments by doing this).

Things are look very bright for Tesla now.

dh0011

i used take the train a lot but these days i find it cheaper to drive

steamengine

nokia69 wrote: »

nope, this is just wrong, the roadster is now out of production Tesla are now building the model S, look it up on youtube, it not a gimmick they will sell 20K of them this year and even more next year, the future of the car is battery electric there is now little doubt of that

its only a matter of time before we see intercity electric buses, there will be electric buses on the cork to dublin route long before irish rail have electric trains

BTW electric motors can be built without using rare earths, as far as I know Tesla don't use rare earths in their motors

That is a curious prediction - not one country as yet runs intercity electric buses, yet many run intercity electric trains. What extra special insight do we have that the rest of the world has missed ?

nokia69

steamengine wrote: »

That is a curious prediction - not one country as yet runs intercity electric buses, yet many run intercity electric trains. What extra special insight do we have that the rest of the world has missed ?

no special insight really, but I can seen the trends over the next few years, the price of diesel will continue to rise while the price of batteries will continue to fall, there will then be a cross over point where its obvious to all that a battery powered bus is cheaper to run than a diesel bus, I think this will happen in less than 10 years others will say it will take longer but it will happen

for us to have intercity electric trains in Ireland we would need a massive increase in spending to upgrade the lines and on new trains, both of which will not happen soon, when the property/credit bubble burst the first thing the government cut was capital expenditure, so it looks to me that we will have electric buses running between dublin and cork long before we have electric trains, a pity really I much prefer the train over the bus

who knows maybe we will see something like this on the roads in the future

corktina

not in the next hundred years will you see intercity battery electric buses....town buses yes, where slow speeds are the order, but even an elemental stab at physics tells me that the power needed to power a bus at 100km/h for 2 hours would be outstripped by the physical weight of the batterys needed to store that much power. Eevn given possible technology improvements, the number of axles you'd need to carry the weight and the sheer phyiscal size of the battery's also will mitigate against this. EXTERNAL power source is the way to go but if you are going to wire up the roads, it's probably just as economic to wire the railway

nokia69

corktina wrote: »

not in the next hundred years will you see intercity battery electric buses....town buses yes, where slow speeds are the order, but even an elemental stab at physics tells me that the power needed to power a bus at 100km/h for 2 hours would be outstripped by the physical weight of the batterys needed to store that much power. Eevn given possible technology improvements, the number of axles you'd need to carry the weight and the sheer phyiscal size of the battery's also will mitigate against this. EXTERNAL power source is the way to go but if you are going to wire up the roads, it's probably just as economic to wire the railway

100Kmh for 2 hours would be easy with todays batteries no need to wait 100 years

have you heard of lithium ion batteries ? they are getting better every year

you seem to think that we only have lead acid batteries

but you are right external power may also be used, the germans are working on powering lorries and trucks on motorways using overhead wires, buses could use the same system

steamengine

The Germans already have electric trains, so electrified roads if it ever came about would augment their rail system. It seems once again, judging from some of the posts on this issue that in Ireland we know better - electrify the roads rather than rail - and slot us into max speeds of 62.5 mph, or thereabouts for evermore. It's the same brand logic that saw Dublin's tram system scrapped back in the mid 1900's only to start re-instating it a half century later.

bk

The roads won't be electrified and neither will the intercity rail network (commuter maybe).

Both just cost too much to do.

Cars will go fully electric with batteries.

Intercity coaches and trucks will likely go natural gas first and then hydrogen or other efuels in the long term. Intercity trains in Ireland will likely end up going the same route.