Ikea for Cherrywood?

ted1

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Doesn't explain why their renders clearly indicate no street parking at all

Underground parking?

Tragedy

To put it in perspective, the Ikea Ballymun site is over twice the size of the entirety of Dundrum Town Centre.

Sure it would fit, the question is: Is there any reason to allow one to be built other than "just because"?

Slutmonkey57b

Or "the failed developer of the existing site wants another go"?

Con Logue

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Well if the Ballymun Ikea is in the top 10 in the world for sales, then clearly there's no potential traffic increase by building another one... It'll be empty... right?

:rolleyes:

Why is having 2/3 ikea's something we want to aim for? How does it benefit us, really? Lots more easily broken needless tat in people's houses? Has the recession taught us nothing?

Hmm, of course I'd prefer to give over the odds to an Irish business for similar products, some superior, others inferior.

Wouldn't I?

And to really hack off some, IKEA Cherrywood would generate some additional business for the Brides Glen end of the tramline. Naturally not for Sofa purchases

Larbre34

This IKEA notion has got out of hand. The application to Bord Pleanala is for strategic development zoning of a large area to grow a community over 30 years. SDZs generally cater for community level homes and services, not retail warehousing, so despite by the petition by the IKEA promoters, the chances of it being included in the Bord Pleanala approval is very slim. I would go as far as to say including an IKEA size store would be as bad as building one now on the site of the Stillorgan Shopping Centre.

Bord Pleanala will take anything up to 9 months to adjudicate on the SDZ, thats how complex the various elements are. The public hearings alone went on for a month.

It will be mid-2014 at the very earliest before you see any planning applications appearing for the SDZ area.

Fratton Fred

I was reading the dlrcoco plans last night, very ambitious and all that, but the final nail in Dun Laoghaire's coffin.

reprazant

Well, seeing as the council has spent that last few years killing it with all or any of their policies, it is nice that they seem to be going public with the final bit of their master plan.

josip

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I was reading the dlrcoco plans last night, very ambitious and all that, but the final nail in Dun Laoghaire's coffin.

I disagree. Dun Laoghaire will still have a hospital (with an identity crisis), the social welfare office, at least one branch of every charity shop, a daily boat service to a remote part of Wales (when the weather is good), a court house where all the greedy people operating on the fringes of the law hang out, the council offices, constituency offices for the Ceann Comhairle and the Tanaiste, as well as the methadone clinic. Have I missed anything?

Slutmonkey57b

Con Logue wrote: »

Hmm, of course I'd prefer to give over the odds to an Irish business for similar products, some superior, others inferior.

Wouldn't I?

What's stopping you doing that at the existing location? And how much tat does the average householder need, anyway?

And to really hack off some, IKEA Cherrywood would generate some additional business for the Brides Glen end of the tramline. Naturally not for Sofa purchases

Which benefits... ? The developer of cherrywood and a private rail company....

Slutmonkey57b

Larbre34 wrote: »

This IKEA notion has got out of hand. The application to Bord Pleanala is for strategic development zoning of a large area to grow a community over 30 years. SDZs generally cater for community level homes and services, not retail warehousing, so despite by the petition by the IKEA promoters, the chances of it being included in the Bord Pleanala approval is very slim. I would go as far as to say including an IKEA size store would be as bad as building one now on the site of the Stillorgan Shopping Centre.

Bord Pleanala will take anything up to 9 months to adjudicate on the SDZ, thats how complex the various elements are. The public hearings alone went on for a month.

It will be mid-2014 at the very earliest before you see any planning applications appearing for the SDZ area.

The developer's proposal does not contain any sustainable housing, it contains tiny crammed together dog boxes and more apartments.

Con Logue

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

What's stopping you doing that at the existing location? And how much tat does the average householder need, anyway?

I would have thought as much as they want and can afford. Outside of that it isn't anyone elses business. Presumably the Valley of the Squinting Windows still exists.

Which benefits... ? The developer of cherrywood and a private rail company....

I don't know about you, but given that a big lump of Cherrywood is like a lunar landscape with a quarry lake and that the taxpayer had an input into the construction of the Luas, I reckon that fair use is fair use. Big deal if private businesses get some gravy out of it.

Unless of course you want a society where a small number of people protect their interests and screw everyone else. We tried that up to the Seventies and it didn't work except, funny enough, for a very small number of people.

josip

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

And how much tat does the average householder need, anyway?

Very little, and they can get that locally already

Our first house 12 years ago was furnished using local retailers in the Dun Laoghaire area. Since 2008 we have predominantly been sourcing our furniture in Ikea. Their kitchen quality is far superior to what's available from "local" places like the panelling centre/InHouse. I've fitted around 10 kitchens so I have a reasonable idea about kitchen quality. We have yet to be disappointed by any of the other tit or tat we got from Ikea.

The word "tat" is often used indiscriminately about Ikea by people who are not in a position to make a qualified analysis of the products on offer, often due to having little or no experience of those products. Slutmonkey, can you elaborate on why you consider Ikea to be a purveyor of tat, fine or otherwise?

Slutmonkey57b

If you walk around Ikea, or any other warehouse retailer, and don't find a depressing amount of tat, then I don't know what you're looking at. Ikea is not alone but its volumes are high. Tat, in this context, refers to "all that materialistic crap people in this country buy in bucketloads to no apparent good purpose"

As to the poster who suggests "as much as they need and can afford" I'll simply point to the levels of personal debt in this country and ask, once again, has the crash/recession taught people nothing? That there should be more to life than standing in a concrete barn every weekend buying crap you don't need so you can show it off to anyone who comes around? That "more concrete barns selling tat" isn't actually a solution to anything?

Larbre34

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

The developer's proposal does not contain any sustainable housing, it contains tiny crammed together dog boxes and more apartments.

....In line with government destiny policy, and thats a whole other days chat.

Any developers with potential sites, especially in Dublin are looking again to lay them out in traditional Semi-D style with driveways and gardens, as thats what young families aspire to. There are benefits and consequences to both philosophies.

Apart from commuter sprawl, Dublins problem is it never developed an organic core of high density apartment living as the norm, when it was retrofitted by Liam Carroll and the like it was a disaster, an artificial failed experiment.

Larbre34

josip wrote: »

I disagree. Dun Laoghaire will still have a hospital (with an identity crisis), the social welfare office, at least one branch of every charity shop, a daily boat service to a remote part of Wales (when the weather is good), a court house where all the greedy people operating on the fringes of the law hang out, the council offices, constituency offices for the Ceann Comhairle and the Tanaiste, as well as the methadone clinic. Have I missed anything?

The Pier, and Teddys......

Community reaction to potential development in Dun Laoghaire for 50 years has always been negative. With the result that the potential investment has always walked.

The town motto should be, 'Dun Laoghaire - they don't know what they want, yet you can bet it won't be whatever you offer them either'

Slutmonkey57b

Con Logue wrote: »

I don't know about you, but given that a big lump of Cherrywood is like a lunar landscape with a quarry lake and that the taxpayer had an input into the construction of the Luas, I reckon that fair use is fair use. Big deal if private businesses get some gravy out of it.

Excellent! Let's allow our public policies to be driven by the interests of developers and private profits, that worked really well in the past oh wait....

And the thing about empty land it's that it doesn't have to be used for anything, it's a resource and benefit of its own. We don't *have* to build anything there, and nature will take over the site by itself, given a bit of time.

Unless of course you want a society where a small number of people protect their interests and screw everyone else. We tried that up to the Seventies and it didn't work except, funny enough, for a very small number of people.

In this case "people who want to shop for catalogue furniture" are supporting a notion that would have a significantly negative effect on a whole corner of Dublin, when what they're looking for is a) already available 20 minutes away and b) can be bought online from the comfort of their own homes therefore negating the need for another blue barn to be built at all.

josip

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

again, has the crash/recession taught people nothing? That there should be more to life than standing in a concrete barn every weekend buying crap you don't need so you can show it off to anyone who comes around?

The recession has taught us not to pay more for furniture/furnishings than we have to. We needed the kitchen we bought. We needed the beds. Without the duvets we'd be cold at night. And those 47 white flower pots were just what we needed for our little herb garden.

Ikea is a shop that polarises people. Some people like the format, others don't. But a lot of people, including us, go there to buy specific things that they otherwise couldn't afford to buy. To suggest that they have nothing better to do with their lives than "buying crap" is condescending and inconsiderate.

Slutmonkey57b

Larbre34 wrote: »

The Pier, and Teddys......

Community reaction to potential development in Dun Laoghaire for 50 years has always been negative. With the result that the potential investment has always walked.

The town motto should be, 'Dun Laoghaire - they don't know what they want, yet you can bet it won't be whatever you offer them either'

The community may have a negative attitude to development, but if that's a bad thing, why are property prices so high? Why do people want to live there? Why is there a housing shortage? If these massive warehouses are such a fantastic thing, why aren't houses around liffey valley, blanchardstown and the airport more coveted?

The answer is simple, surely: The area is predominantly people-friendly, rather than developer-friendly. Letting a developer who can't sell a business park with paved car parking concrete over a whole swathe of the county with eyesores isn't going to help the area, it will damage it.

Amalgam

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

The area is predominantly people-friendly, rather than developer-friendly. Letting a developer who can't sell a business park with paved car parking concrete over a whole swathe of the county with eyesores isn't going to help the area, it will damage it.

Are you being contrary for the sake of it. The commercial 'vibe' of a sizeable part of Dun Laoghaire can be summed up with two words, 'depressing kip'.

It says something that a business group has been placing posters about taking very clear verbal pot shots at the various bodies in charge of rates\commercial management issues' that cause businesses to come under increasing pressure, by a seemingly deaf and mute County Council.

The area at Cherrywood cannot be made any worse, if you're saying what is there is 'fine', you're wrong. Let the private sector do something, because, so far, the various national and local bodies have done f**k all.

Tragedy

Cherrywood can be made worse, it could be turned into a hellish amalgam of Tyrellstown and Rosemount, which is what the owners seem to want.

It's easy to redevelop waste land into whatever you wish, it's a lot harder to redevelop hundreds(thousands?) of high density apartments, townhouses and industrial units after, surprise surprise, it turns out they aren't what was needed or best for the area.

Your short sighted view is a large part of what has made parts of Dublin into untenable ****holes that families who live there dream of escaping every night.

Amalgam

It is already ugly. The Apartments there are ugly. The wasteland is ugly. having to walk down from the LUAS is a mess. The hodge podge of Mickey Mouse housing in the area, up towards Ballyogan is ugly. There's uglyness all around already.

If you're coming at this from not wanting your idyllic tranquility spoiled in any way because you live somewhere quaint and quiet like Cherrywood Road or similar, I don't sympathise.

wolfpawnat

ted1 wrote: »

I would not agree, causing congestion at a major junction. Taking business away from local villages. Etc, etc. plenty of shopping centres within a ten minute drive. Ikea a 25 minute drive

If you have a car, I live in Cherrywood, getting to Ikea would take me hours!

Anyone wrote: »

Another dirty big monstrous building to sit on top of that hill. Cant imagine anybody living in Cherrywood will be too happy about it.

A few are actually campaigning for it. There is a surprising large number of people unemployed in the area that would be glad of the jobs! The only thing is as long as they make a good carpark for it. Otherwise they will have people walking across the road at the roundabout there, not the safest spot in Ireland.

I genuinely hope they come, I would be glad to see it. There is toss all there now and the waste land is dangerous. I love the surrounding countryside, it is stunning, but something is going to have to be done with the site, so it may as well be this!

listermint

Amalgam wrote: »

Are you being contrary for the sake of it. The commercial 'vibe' of a sizeable part of Dun Laoghaire can be summed up with two words, 'depressing kip'.

It says something that a business group has been placing posters about taking very clear verbal pot shots at the various bodies in charge of rates\commercial management issues' that cause businesses to come under increasing pressure, by a seemingly deaf and mute County Council.

The area at Cherrywood cannot be made any worse, if you're saying what is there is 'fine', you're wrong. Let the private sector do something, because, so far, the various national and local bodies have done f**k all.

Amalgam wrote: »

It is already ugly. The Apartments there are ugly. The wasteland is ugly. having to walk down from the LUAS is a mess. The hodge podge of Mickey Mouse housing in the area, up towards Ballyogan is ugly. There's uglyness all around already.

If you're coming at this from not wanting your idyllic tranquility spoiled in any way because you live somewhere quaint and quiet like Cherrywood Road or similar, I don't sympathise.

Agreed on all points. Lived there for a while and it was a depressing kip. Going to or coming from the last 2 luas stops on the line at night wasnt the nicest of experiences the place is an absolute ghost town.

the waste ground with what look visibly like open cast mines is disgusting and if you want to keep that area the same way in some vain attempt at nature preservation then your quite perplexing. There is plenty of land there not jaded by bulldozers actions, that is perfectly suitable to walk the dogs and play with the kids. There is a park right in the valley should you wish, and ive been up to the old church numerous times. Any development would not touch that area.

wolfpawnat

Tragedy wrote: »

Cherrywood can be made worse, it could be turned into a hellish amalgam of Tyrellstown and Rosemount, which is what the owners seem to want.

It's easy to redevelop waste land into whatever you wish, it's a lot harder to redevelop hundreds(thousands?) of high density apartments, townhouses and industrial units after, surprise surprise, it turns out they aren't what was needed or best for the area.

Your short sighted view is a large part of what has made parts of Dublin into untenable ****holes that families who live there dream of escaping every night.

As Almagam said, it's already a ugly, the surrounding housing area is ugly. The Industrial park is ugly, but we may as well have a Ben Dunne gym (which we just got) and Ikea, at least they are ugly and useful!

RosieJoe

I'm going to put my Old Man hat on for this one!

I remember walking from Cabinteely Village up Brennanstown Road, Lehaunstown lane to Tully Church. All you could see were fields, corn, farmland! I know time changes everything but it is sad to see the land the way it is

wolfpawnat

RosieJoe wrote: »

I'm going to put my Old Man hat on for this one!

I remember walking from Cabinteely Village up Brennanstown Road, Lehaunstown lane to Tully Church. All you could see were fields, corn, farmland! I know time changes everything but it is sad to see the land the way it is

I was talking to a guy one day, he lived in the area for years. He told me the two sets of apartments at Cherrywood were only the beginning, the apartments were supposed to go on both sides of the Luas all the way to the Carrickmines stop :eek: I am grateful it didn't go that far at least. Far more green area would have been destroyed.

Fratton Fred

josip wrote: »

I disagree. Dun Laoghaire will still have a hospital (with an identity crisis), the social welfare office, at least one branch of every charity shop, a daily boat service to a remote part of Wales (when the weather is good), a court house where all the greedy people operating on the fringes of the law hang out, the council offices, constituency offices for the Ceann Comhairle and the Tanaiste, as well as the methadone clinic. Have I missed anything?

It will also have the mother of all libraries!

Slutmonkey57b

Amalgam wrote: »

Are you being contrary for the sake of it. The commercial 'vibe' of a sizeable part of Dun Laoghaire can be summed up with two words, 'depressing kip'.

My point is DLR has no problem attracting residents, and maintaining quality housing and house prices, without kowtowing to developers or giving in to "commerce at all costs". Your counterpoint, wait for it, is "there's not enough commerce"? Really? Are you reading before posting?

It says something that a business group has been placing posters about taking very clear verbal pot shots at the various bodies in charge of rates\commercial management issues' that cause businesses to come under increasing pressure, by a seemingly deaf and mute County Council.

"Commercial interests attempting to undermine public bodies who won't do what they want" shocker. While councils across the country can be accused of dimwittedness in the face of failing to reduce town centre rates, parking costs etc, you seem to be conveniently ignoring that the single largest pressure being exerted on commercial activity is ...

Rents.

Private Rents.

Set by landlords, property owners, and developers.

Not by councils.

But sure, let's all do what the developers want. Like I said, what could possibly go ... oh right Tyrrelstown.

The area at Cherrywood cannot be made any worse, if you're saying what is there is 'fine', you're wrong. Let the private sector do something, because, so far, the various national and local bodies have done f**k all.

Easily the most dimwitted comment I've read here.

Do you know why there is a vacant site at Cherrywood? Do you know why Bride's Glen doesn't get a lot of Luas traffic? Do you know why the building site needs clearing?

Because the land was in the hands of a private developer who made a balls of it (during the boom times!) and then went bust. There is a reason why Cherrywood doesn't have a lot of amenities; because the developer didn't deliver them. There is a reason that the waste ground needs clearing; because the developer refused to clear it and dragged the matter through the courts for years. There is a reason why the business park doesn't have commuters going through it; the developer put up cheap buildings which nobody would move into after the anchor tenants discovered what state they were in.

And your genius proposal to fix all this is....

Hand it over to a developer and let them do what they want with it? The same developer that owns the business park, and hasn't paved the car parks? Who had to refit the empty offices after several years when they finally admitted what state they were in? And still couldn't let them out?

Nuts.

Slutmonkey57b

wolfpawnat wrote: »

As Almagam said, it's already a ugly, the surrounding housing area is ugly. The Industrial park is ugly, but we may as well have a Ben Dunne gym (which we just got) and Ikea, at least they are ugly and useful!

listermint wrote: »

Agreed on all points. Lived there for a while and it was a depressing kip. Going to or coming from the last 2 luas stops on the line at night wasnt the nicest of experiences the place is an absolute ghost town.

the waste ground with what look visibly like open cast mines is disgusting and if you want to keep that area the same way in some vain attempt at nature preservation then your quite perplexing. There is plenty of land there not jaded by bulldozers actions, that is perfectly suitable to walk the dogs and play with the kids. There is a park right in the valley should you wish, and ive been up to the old church numerous times. Any development would not touch that area.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

If you have a car, I live in Cherrywood, getting to Ikea would take me hours!



A few are actually campaigning for it. There is a surprising large number of people unemployed in the area that would be glad of the jobs! The only thing is as long as they make a good carpark for it. Otherwise they will have people walking across the road at the roundabout there, not the safest spot in Ireland.

I genuinely hope they come, I would be glad to see it. There is toss all there now and the waste land is dangerous. I love the surrounding countryside, it is stunning, but something is going to have to be done with the site, so it may as well be this!

Amalgam wrote: »

It is already ugly. The Apartments there are ugly. The wasteland is ugly. having to walk down from the LUAS is a mess. The hodge podge of Mickey Mouse housing in the area, up towards Ballyogan is ugly. There's uglyness all around already.

If you're coming at this from not wanting your idyllic tranquility spoiled in any way because you live somewhere quaint and quiet like Cherrywood Road or similar, I don't sympathise.

So the general consensus from some quarters is "There are ugly things up there already, let's make things even uglier! Let's give up and just let the whole place turn into a concrete hellhole."

Some solution that is. The waste ground can be reclaimed and cleared up, there are no shortage of ex-construction crews desperate for the work. The Luas access can be improved. If it weren't for a bunfight between rival property developers there would be a proper park and ride facility there instead of the hidden one 3 stops up which supposedly "services" Carrickmines retail park but is actually half an hour's walk away. (guess which developer won the bunfight) A reasonable scale commercial development could be built, with reasonable scale decent housing, preserving the green areas, and with a bit of time might actually improve the area.

But no, clearly the only answer is to build an Ikea and 8,000 "residential units" aka more badly planned dogboxes.

Like I said, I lived there for years. I don't live near there anymore so I'm not a rich nimby, and I'm not unaware of the area's problems. However, making the area's problems worse to suit people who don't want to travel an extra 20 minutes to an Ikea they can order online from... doesn't make any sense.

Amalgam

You make it sound like the private developer is purely at fault. The local Council have more or less taken their time moving on from the bust because it doesn't suit them! ..as in, as long as we can't squeeze an unreasonable amount of rates and parking fees out of this situation, zoning etc.. we won't do anything. That's what the present inertia boils down to.

Ikea have an interest in keeping a site to a certain standard, for the sake of their own branding.. That would keep things, 'in balance', for this particular site. It wouldn't be just any old ****ehawke moving in.

Don't presume that the County Council haven't been nudging and pulling here and there, long before things went south there were 'problems' that were entirely of their own making. As I said before, rates and zoning. They're not innocent.