A suggestion to improve Moderation in general

Wibbs

mathepac wrote: »

congratulating their fellows for appareny point-scoring on the ordinary (non-mod) poster who can't respond in kind because he'll get infracted / banned.

Only if they write something infractable/bannable. And if a mod does start acting the muppet anywhere on the site, report their post(s). It does get actioned when it's happened. Seen it myself.

That's the first time any mod has admitted that.

Ahh c'mon MtP, I've regularly seen mods, cmods, admins say there was room for improvement. I've said it myself with regard to my own moderation often enough.

Given the reception doled out here, I am more convinced than ever that their is a serious problem.

The odd issue, yep, but a serious problem? I've been around a fair few forums in the wider web and vanishingly few(TBH can't actually think of one) have the level of mod oversight and recourse for users as here. If this was I dunno 5 years ago, there was less "official" recourse for mod muppetry when it arose(which to be fair was rarely enough), but today you have the DRP for starters and while it's not perfect(nothing will ever be), it does work most of the time and yes I've seen mod decisions overturned/reduced. Happens regularly enough too.

The Hill Billy

mathepac wrote: »

So if it's not an admission of anything from a moderation perspective then what you're really saying is that site-wide, the mods would have a great time if it weren't for the scummy posters making you lives a misery. So the non-admission is really an accusation.

An alternative interpretation is that the mods are perfect and the run-of-the-mill posters are just a huge pain in the arse.
The posting just becomes more obtuse and obdurate and of decreasing quality.

Nice try, but I'm not saying any of that at all - You are just putting words in my mouth.
Trying to be 'smart' & twisting other's words is not doing your argument any good tbh.

mathepac

The Hill Billy wrote: »

Nice try, but I'm not saying any of that at all - You are just putting words in my mouth.
Trying to be 'smart' & twisting other's words is not doing your argument any good tbh.

See? I'm adaptable, teachable, changeable. I absorb lessons from interaction with the masters of subversion, deflection and mis-direction. And to think I was just an honest Sean Citizen poster a short while ago.

Oryx

mathepac wrote: »

See? I'm adaptable, teachable, changeable. I absorb lessons from interaction with the masters of subversion, deflection and mis-direction. And to think I was just an honest Sean Citizen poster a short while ago.

You say there are big problems on this site, but refuse to say why. You instead say that the evidence is there and we are just to lazy to look for it. Well, I have no idea what you are on about, and if you really wanted to get somewhere you'd make your case a bit better, rather than expecting people here who actually want to listen and hear your pov, trawl through god knows how many points to try and find the massive injustices you vaguely allude to.

Right now, all you seem to be doing is going around in circles accusing this site and the mods within it of being masters of subversion, deflection and misdirection. With nothing at all shown here to back it up. Not one thing. I mean, really?

K-9

mathepac wrote: »

See? I'm adaptable, teachable, changeable. I absorb lessons from interaction with the masters of subversion, deflection and mis-direction. And to think I was just an honest Sean Citizen poster a short while ago.

Jaysus, being serious, I really don't know what the mods did, it must be pretty bad to make you as angry as you come across in your posts.

Pawwed Rig

On a thread 'A suggestion to improve moderation in general' is is not better for the mods to take a step back and listen to the feedback rather than challenge every comment that is made? All feedback is good feedback?

The last 2 pages look like 1 poster giving feedback (admittedly very general) with 5 or 6 mods questioning every statement he/she makes.

Math is the second poster on this thread with high amounts of posts to have an issue. The fact that they have high amounts of post would indicate that they are a poster in good standing so should be taken seriously.

KERSPLAT!

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

On a thread 'A suggestion to improve moderation in general' is is not better for the mods to take a step back and listen to the feedback rather than challenge every comment that is made? All feedback is good feedback?

The last 2 pages look like 1 poster giving feedback (admittedly very general) with 5 or 6 mods questioning every statement he/she makes.

Math is the second poster on this thread with high amounts of posts to have an issue. The fact that they have high amounts of post would indicate that they are a poster in good standing so should be taken seriously.

When a general statement is made about the mods, then of course the mods are going to question it, ask for clarification if they don't understand and ask for examples. How else can they help? As for post counts, I don't think someone's post count is indicative of whether a poster is in good standing or not

dr.bollocko

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

On a thread 'A suggestion to improve moderation in general' is is not better for the mods to take a step back and listen to the feedback rather than challenge every comment that is made? All feedback is good feedback?

The last 2 pages look like 1 poster giving feedback (admittedly very general) with 5 or 6 mods questioning every statement he/she makes.

Math is the second poster on this thread with high amounts of posts to have an issue. The fact that they have high amounts of post would indicate that they are a poster in good standing so should be taken seriously.

If we're too hands off the accusation is we're not listening... IE look at the response from the poster not getting specific feedback on one point raised.

If we're too hands on or trying to take the bull by the horns then we can be viewed as over-reacting or piling in. This is not a clear right or wrong situation. There are more opinions than those amongst us who are disgruntled and that's OK too. Some people don't have a problem with the mods. Some people need more explanation because they don't necessarily understand where people are coming from with general statements.

The problem with general statements, particularly if they are expressed in a caustic manner, is that it's difficult to reach the desired audience. It's hard to make changes when you don't know where to start because a criticism is a negative generality.

"All mods are crap."

OK. Fuck it. Let's give up. Close the shop. There's no point to this modding lark. We're only getting worse.

Vs. the specific general criticism which can be helpful.
"I think the mods of the **** forum are ignoring their posters who prefer to **** left handed. Can they please try to be more inclusive in future."

One is the war cry of a disgruntled poster. The other might actually improve things.... At least in the **** forum.

Some mods have X bad behaviour. Not all of them. It's not like we're scoffing in a back lounge somewhere wondering how we can be dickheads next.

Micky Dolenz

Hang on? There is a **** forum?

Pawwed Rig

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

When a general statement is made about the mods, then of course the mods are going to question it

Agreed, but there is no need for 5-6 mods need to question him/her at the same time. It can be difficult to give feedback in many situations and generally the most effective way it to make it as easy as possible for a person with an issue to highlight it. When a gang gathers around you to question every statement it makes posters less inclined to give feedback. Why not just take what he says as feedback. Modding could be improved, of course it could. There is always room for improvement. Each mod posting here does not need to take that personally.

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

As for post counts, I don't think someone's post count is indicative of whether a poster is in good standing or not

If a person has a high post count they have been around a while and have not been seen to be so troublesome that they have been perma banned yet so are 'allowed' to remain on the site. Therefore in good standing.

K-9

Just on the specific issue raised about responses to reported posts, there has been several threads about mods replying to them, and good reasons were given as to why it isn't practical.

Feedback shouldn't be a one way process. If mods don't think it is practical, they voice that opinion from experience, not because they don't want to or don't feel like it. Repeatedly looking for something that isn't practical doesn't get anybody anywhere. Users need to take on the Feedback from mods otherwise the same poster keeps looking for the same thing and gets the same response.

Pawwed Rig

dr.bollocko wrote: »

The problem with general statements, particularly if they are expressed in a caustic manner, is that it's difficult to reach the desired audience. It's hard to make changes when you don't know where to start because a criticism is a negative generality.

Would more specific feedback be welcome here though? If I was to call out a mod action, name the mod, the forum etc I would suggest there would be a brief discussion. There would then be a final post by an Admin saying to contact a Cmod or admin and then the thread closed asap. So the posters here are correct to be general as possible.

Oryx

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Agreed, but there is no need for 5-6 mods need to question him/her at the same time.... Each mod posting here does not need to take that personally.

But hang on a minute, one poster here has generalised and said moderation is not good here. If it was a specific comment about specific moderation, fair enough, but its not. So naturally many mods are here wondering 'is this about me???' and asking about it.

Its not ganging up. I'm reading this thread the same as you are and trying to figure out what the problems are.

dr.bollocko

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Would more specific feedback be welcome here though? If I was to call out a mod action, name the mod, the forum etc I would suggest there would be a brief discussion. There would then be a final post by an Admin saying to contact a Cmod or admin and then the thread closed asap. So the posters here are correct to be general as possible.

Well I think you can get to be more specific without necessarily turning things into a witch hunt.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Not that I have anything against cats.

Again it's not a mods vs. posters thing.
Everyone with bold mod tags isn't an enemy and we certainly do not speak with one voice.

"Hey, if X behaviour was stopped in Y forum, Y forum would work better. I've noticed this a few times."


Across the board, you can't say all mods are bad mods.

Well you can. But you know. If I said all posters in feedback sucked you'd just think the problem was more with me than with all posters in feedback and you'd be right.

Pawwed Rig

It cannot get more specific without being a witch hunt when you have 5 people questioning your posts. I think Math was correct to keep it general considering that he/she already stated that they used the report post thingy. I personally think that 95% of the moderation on this site is excellent and I think you will find lots of posts from lots of different people extolling the virtues of the moderators who give up their free time 24-7 to respond to queries.
However, I have found some (personally) who tolerate abuse when it is a forum regular. I have reported personal abuse where a mod called another poster a scumbag on thread and was never infracted (followed up with cmod etc with no change). I have also found some mods to rude/abrupt in PM's or needlessly confrontational outside their own fora.
These are the issues that a feedback thread like this can address but to do it in a specific way, I believe, would be unfair to all involved.

knucklehead6

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Hang on? There is a **** forum?

By invite only, and you have to know the secret hand shake too...

mathepac

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

... These are the issues that a feedback thread like this can address but to do it in a specific way, I believe, would be unfair to all involved.

Thanks for that, but can I repeat that as one moderator has chosen to refer to my record of bans and infarctions, cards and warnings, it is evident the specifics in my case are available to the mods.

Why do the mods then continually challenge me to produce these specifics? In my case of using "Report post" buttons with no resultant action and following up with an on-thread question, all that information is available, just not to me. It has been referred to in the thread by a mod. It has used against me to try to weaken my case about my complaints against mods not doing what's expected of them and behaving in un-mod like manners. This information about me is buried in a boards.ie archive somewhere that I cannot retrieve.

Once and for all can I refer back to the thread topic, "A suggestion to improve Moderation in general". The mods are abusing this thread and their powers to complain about me and my feedback. Is this not a perfect specific example of what I am complaining about? Instead of saying "thanks for the input, thanks for taking the time and trouble, we'll take that at face value and assess it against your disciplinary record and report posts logs and come back about the rights and wrongs of it". Or mature, adult words to that general effect, given the thread is about improving moderation in general

Why all the defensiveness and aggressive posturing against (primarily) one poster? Btw - while I value support, I have no problem mounting my own defence; I think I'm old enough to do that. How many mods have posted in the thread -vs- Joe Soaps (apologies lads and lassies) like me? Why the disproportion in representative terms?

As I have said already if you (the mods) don't want feedback on how to "... improve Moderation in general" couched in general terms, use the specifics of my record or maybe just lock the thread.

Oryx

I haven't looked at your record, I'm not interested in your record. That isnt relevant at all to me in this thread. But you refer to mods plural, so I guess you include me. What I am interested in is where mods are not behaving in a 'mod like' manner. I want to see where you have noticed this and think it is inappropriate, so I can form an opinion on whether I think your claims have merit.

The Hill Billy

mathepac wrote: »

Thanks for that, but can I repeat that as one moderator has chosen to refer to my record of bans and infarctions, cards and warnings, it is evident the specifics in my case are available to the mods.

Sorry to be picky, but I do not like my comments being mis-represented as you continue to do. What I posted was...

but I have to say that some (not all) of those complaining about mod behaviour in this thread have quite a few warnings/infractions on their profiles

I did not specifically refer to your record of bans, etc. You continue to be disingenuous by personalising a general remark I made about some posters in this thread.
For the record - the specifics of any case would not necessarily be available to me or any other moderator. This isn't all about you, you know.

So, getting back to the crux of the matter - what would you suggest could be done to improve moderation.

oscarBravo

mathepac wrote: »

I have requested mod feedback for posters who use the "Report a Post" button. This was in order to close the loop back to the reporter in order for him to understand the reasoning behind inaction from the mods.

This generated the usual predictable responses, combined with hands thrown in the air, "Oh the mods won't like it", "The mods aren't paid, they work for free" - the usual tat. I don't care if they don't like it. A closed loop feedback system is the only way to make improvements in a setting such as this so that all decision-making is transparent.

I've re-read all your posts on this thread, and this is the closest thing I can find to an actual concrete suggestion on how you feel moderation could be improved.

There's a problem with your suggestion, and it's encapsulated in one sentence of what I've quoted above: you don't care if the moderators don't like it. Well, not caring what the moderators do or don't like is a luxury you have, and that those of us who run the site don't.

So far today there have been 80-odd reported posts. Several of those have been reported by more than one person; one has been reported by three. You want us to require of our moderators that they give feedback to the people who reported those posts. I'm going to assume (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) that you would expect the moderators to enter into a dialogue with the post reporter if the reporter disagreed with the moderator's reasoning.

My belief is that it's too much to ask of our volunteer moderators. You may counter that you don't believe that it's too much to ask, which is fair enough, but I'm one of those who's asking, and you're not, so in this case your feedback has been evaluated, found wanting, and won't be taken on board. But thank you for the suggestion.

darced

This post has been deleted.

K-9

mathepac wrote: »

In my case of using "Report post" buttons with no resultant action and following up with an on-thread question, all that information is available, just not to me.

This has been explained to you before, all mods in a forum get an e-mail notifying them of a reported post, and it also goes to a reported post forum. When the mods take a look a few things might happen:

1. No action is taken as they don't see why it is actionable.
2. No action is taken but they might take a note of it and keep a look out on a thread and/or a user.
3. An on thread warning will get issued.
4. A yellow card/warning is issued.
5. A red card/infraction is issued.
6. A forum ban of differing lengths is issued.

You should take up issues about moderation in feedback, help desk or pm the mods of the forum.

Micky Dolenz

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If you have noticed it a lot, what forums do you frequent? to narrow it down a bit.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Micky Dolenz

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I have no doubt it happens.Unless specific cases are raised it is hard to pin it down. If you notice it again a PM to a relevant Cmod may not go astray.

I don't believe it to be widespread though, from my own dealings and reading of boards.

Pawwed Rig

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I have no doubt it happens.

It does happen and has been highlighted in the feedback thread many times. This is my point though, why question darced to provide specifics to narrow it down? Why not just accept it as feedback? Does every post have to be jumped on?

Micky Dolenz

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It does happen and has been highlighted in the feedback thread many times. This is my point though, why question darced to provide specifics to narrow it down? Why not just accept it as feedback? Does every post have to be jumped on?

He says he sees it a lot. I asked where. I am accepting it as Feedback but wanted to get to the nitty gritty of it for the good of all of us.

That was as far away from me jumping on someone then is possible.

Feedback should be specific, not vague and general. There are hundreds of forums and even more mods on the site.

nesf

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It does happen and has been highlighted in the feedback thread many times. This is my point though, why question darced to provide specifics to narrow it down? Why not just accept it as feedback? Does every post have to be jumped on?

It's not jumping on someone to ask for specific examples so the CMods and/or Admins can look at what's happening.

Taltos

If it helps guys there was a feedback thread specifically about me when I first started modding - instead of getting angry or annoyed I took the input as it was meant (I hope).

However if you are uncomfortable in giving specifics here - (and some people are) - why not follow up with some PM's?
If communication with the mod or their peers is out of the question - just PM the Cat Mods (listed on the bottom right of each forum). And if you feel the Cat Mods are not listening/helping then contact a number of the Admins.

You could reference this thread as background but in the PM's provide links to the examples.

In terms of feedback though - specifics really does help. It is really hard to do anything about generalities, as above we all wonder "is it me" - but also for the Admins - if they do need to take action they need to know which mod they need to talk to and what examples they need to bring to the discussion table. Remember at the end of the day - there isn't a them and us mentality here (or at least in my experience) - many of the mods still think of themselves as posters who have a vested interest in the forums they moderate to ensure the wider community is protected and encouraged. Bear in mind we all have bad days, but there is no get out of free jail card just because you're a mod - despite what others might think as a mod you are expected to know better (at least that is how I approach things, as difficult as it is sometimes).

Hope this helps.

Pawwed Rig

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Feedback should be specific, not vague and general. There are hundreds of forums and even more mods on the site.

But specific feedback gets the threads locked. Hence why in a thread like this it is better to be general. Look at most recent locked threads in Feedback forum.

As discussed earlier do we want to start pointing at individual posts on this thread? For each thread pointed at you would have 5 mods on saying why the infraction/smart comment/ban was justified.

Look back through this thread. Any comment critical of modding has numerous responses from mods, all thanked by mods. How can feedback get through if everytime someone has a comment they have to justify every word they type? Posters were variously called whingers, had their infraction records posted or anything else possible to undermine the criticism. This is not accepting feedback, this is being defensive.

Feedback should be taken as such. If someone says they have seen smart comments from mods it does not matter where it happens. It is feedback, take it a such and the next time you are banning someone or issuing mod instruction be aware that this issue was fed back.