ICT / Computer studies at second level

StaggerLee

Hi All,

I am trying to guage the employment opportunities for ICT / Computer studies at teachers at second level. I am looking to do a PGDE, my primary degree would allow me to qualify as an ICT teacher.
I would also like to teach Maths, how hard is it to move into other subject areas?

Thanks

Chris68

Hi

There are a whole bunch of employment rules and restrictions within which school management need to operate. In practice these mean that no one teaches just one subject. There is the subject they are employed to teach, and there are the subjects that fill in the gaps in their timetable - affectionately known as "fillers". CSPE, SPHE, Maths and ICT are widely viewed as fillers.

So for example, someone might be employed to teach Physics. Their timetable maybe only has 6 hours of physics in it along with maybe 12 hours of junior cert science. A full time teacher needs 22 hours on their timetable, so the balance of 4 hours would likely be maths or ICT - regardless of whether that teacher has any maths/ICT qualifications. The balance of a religion teacher's timetable is likely to be filled with SPHE, a history teacher will likely get CSPE, and so on.

Bottom line, you are extremely unlikely to get a job if you are only qualified in a filler.
Sorry.

rainbowtrout

Chris68 wrote: »

Hi

There are a whole bunch of employment rules and restrictions within which school management need to operate. In practice these mean that no one teaches just one subject. There is the subject they are employed to teach, and there are the subjects that fill in the gaps in their timetable - affectionately known as "fillers". CSPE, SPHE, Maths and ICT are widely viewed as fillers.

So for example, someone might be employed to teach Physics. Their timetable maybe only has 6 hours of physics in it along with maybe 12 hours of junior cert science. A full time teacher needs 22 hours on their timetable, so the balance of 4 hours would likely be maths or ICT - regardless of whether that teacher has any maths/ICT qualifications. The balance of a religion teacher's timetable is likely to be filled with SPHE, a history teacher will likely get CSPE, and so on.

Bottom line, you are extremely unlikely to get a job if you are only qualified in a filler.
Sorry.

I'm sorry, but you're talking through your arse here. Maths is a core subject not a filler subject in any school.

rainbowtrout

StaggerLee wrote: »

Hi All,

I am trying to guage the employment opportunities for ICT / Computer studies at teachers at second level. I am looking to do a PGDE, my primary degree would allow me to qualify as an ICT teacher.
I would also like to teach Maths, how hard is it to move into other subject areas?

Thanks

Practically zero. It's not an exam subject except in the module in ICT for the Leaving Cert Applied. It is a filler subject on most people's timetables for those that have it and with all the cuts that have come in, I'd say it's becoming less common to offer a computer class to students. Our junior cert classes used to have computers once a week a couple of years ago, when the cuts came it was the first thing to go.

Without disparaging your current qualifications, you will need two examinable subjects to have any chance of a job, and there are little or no jobs out there at the moment.

Chris68

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you're talking through your arse here. Maths is a core subject not a filler subject in any school.

Talk about insulting!!!! I am a qualified maths teacher that has been on the wrong side of that particular experience, first hand. I guess my arse must be very talkative so!

BrianBoru00

Chris68 wrote: »

Talk about insulting!!!! I am a qualified maths teacher that has been on the wrong side of that particular experience, first hand. I guess my arse must be very talkative so!

maybe you d like to elaborate. But to suggest maths is a filler subject doesn t do your credibility any good

rainbowtrout

Chris68 wrote: »

Talk about insulting!!!! I am a qualified maths teacher that has been on the wrong side of that particular experience, first hand. I guess my arse must be very talkative so!

Your personal experience does not mean that it's true for every school in the country. It's far from the reality.

whiteandlight

Maths is not a filler subject in any school I have worked in recently. All teachers are qualified and 90% of us are teaching it on almost full hours (the other is on a part time contract). If anything our second subject is our filler subject

seavill

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Your personal experience does not mean that it's true for every school in the country. It's far from the reality.

The same could be said for your personal experience, doesn't make it true of every school across the country.

I agree that in the majority of schools maths is certainly not a filler subject, however your post earlier was completely out of line. A poster here offered their opinion based on their experience, it is not for you to say they are lying or "talking out of their arse". Maybe that is their experience but certainly does not make it untrue just because you don't agree with it, or have not experienced the same.

By all means add your experience and opinion but being insulting is certainly not helpful in any way.

Based on my experience the majority of schools I have worked in only fully qualified maths teachers have taught it, however in two of my past schools it was used as a filler for metalwork and woodwork teachers, also business teachers. That does not make it the norm across the country however it does happen in schools.

ICT is definately a filler subject. Anyone from Science, Business, Woodwork/Metalwork, maths etc. teachers are given it when needed. Any school I have been in have it in Transition Year and LCA, and possibly first year once a week or something like that but if you managed to get 8 hours in total from all of those you are doing very well. It certainly wouldn't be a subject I would try base a career around

Miss Lockhart

ICT, SPHE, CSPE and often Religion are definitely filler subjects. Maths is not that straight forward and I certainly don't think it's fair to dismiss the idea entirely.

Plenty of schools have science and business teachers teaching maths who don't fulfil TC requirements. There have been surveys that showed a significant percentage of unqualified maths teachers. Now, it's not the same as the other subjects listed where literally anybody and everybody from art to pe to french is given them. Science and Business teachers will have done some maths in college (but only in first year for many of them) and it would be rare for a language teacher or a History teacher or whatever to be given maths.

Regarding your question about moving into other subjects, you would have to complete 54 ECTS degree credits and there are also specifications about content.

Chris68

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Your personal experience does not mean that it's true for every school in the country. It's far from the reality.

As others have pointed out I spoke from experience. I was told this by a principal when I was let go. The same principal also said that many other principals hold the same. I never said it was the case in every school but only that it was wide spread.

If it is not the case then maybe you could explain to me why there are currently 400 out of field maths teachers undertaking the professional diploma in mathematics for teaching? Why have 400 more lined up to start it next year? Bear in mind, that one of the criteria to be considered for this course is that you must be actively employed in the teaching of mathematics. A second criteria is that your qualification is not in mathematics.

BrianBoru00

With all due respect, I think the word filler is being misused or used differently by different people.
When timetabling there is very low priority given to the likes of ICT,SPHE etc. in comparison to mainstream subjects.

Given the way hours aren't finalised into late September even October, a principal may have gained extra hours for Maths - e.g. resource hours and will allocate those to bring peoples hours up.

I'll guarantee in your schools that honours maths has not been used as a filler nor even the ordinary level maths, or higher / junior cert math but suspect that your self in particular would be getting a few maths hours here and there as a result of these extra hours.

Miss Lockhart

To me filler means that it is given to unqualified people to make up their hours after they are already allocated their main subject. That's certainly the case with maths for science and business teachers. In fact, I don't know a single full time science teacher who doesn't have at least one group for maths, and only a small few of those would actually be qualified. And yes, they are teaching OL and HL at JC and OL at LC. In my own school the person who usually takes LC HL is biology teacher who is not qualified in maths. Now she is a very good teacher and she gets good results, but the fact remains thst she is not qualified and maths is used to complete her timetable.

I find it very strange that maths is treated like this. It is very unusual for other subjects to be distributed like this as a norm.

seavill

By filler I mean a subject outside of what you are qualified in. In both schools I referred to previously the maths classes given to the Bus/Science/Woodwork/Metalwork teachers were given to them to fill up their timetables and were on their timetables when given out at the start of August, not an add in later in the year as you describe.
The same going for things like SPHE and ICT.
I personally was given a timetable one particular year of my own subjects Woodwork etc., plus TY - ICT, 2nd Year Maths (HL), and SPHE to 1st years as i was their class tutor, all in one timetable.

Please don't put words in other people's mouths and guarantee things of them and their schools that you know nothing about.
By all means speak of your own experience but my experience of this in two schools was maths, along with other things, were given to me to fill my timetable as there was not enough hours in the school for my own subjects to make 22 hours. As they were used to fill my timetable outside of my qualified subjects I will refer to them as "filler" subjects, whatever your definition of filler is, that is mine

StaggerLee

Thanks the replies everyone. What I am getting is that ICT is definitely a filler, Maths not so much.

Would PE and Maths be a good qualifcation to have?