N6 - Galway outer bypass: Is it needed?

TINA1984

MYOB wrote: »

Because you can't accept its the case?

There are people who oppose the bypass for no other reason than 1980s planning decisions. That is petty and vindictive, whether you like it or not.

There are others who oppose it solely because they don't actually want traffic to get any better unless its bikes/walking/buses that make it better. That is also petty and vindictive.

'Fraid not. Only in Ireland are people made out to be the bad guys -petty and vindictive bad guys at that apparently - because they object to infrastructure provision without a modern planning regime in place to facilitate it. You'll be calling us begrudgers next....

L1011

TINA1984 wrote: »

'Fraid not. Only in Ireland are people made out to be the bad guys -petty and vindictive bad guys at that apparently - because they object to infrastructure provision without a modern planning regime in place to facilitate it. You'll be calling us begrudgers next....

You really, really don't have much knowledge of the world if you think that's the case.

I'd actually say its probably much closer to reality that its "only in Ireland" that people think its acceptable to prevent something being built as a punishment for something. Might happen in some Tory areas of the UK, that's about it.

You may also want to inspect this thread. People are objecting because a planning routine wasn't in place thirty years ago. You don't appear to have realised that. You may be objecting about the present - although your posts don't seem to suggest that - but others clearly aren't

TINA1984

MYOB wrote: »

You really, really don't have much knowledge of the world if you think that's the case.

No evidently I don't. Oh please cultured man of the world MYOB, please fill in the gaps for me, for I am but a simple country bumpkin. Truly you appear to be a font of wisdom and knowledge. Show me the error of my ways.....

MYOB wrote: »

I'd actually say its probably much closer to reality that its "only in Ireland" that people think its acceptable to prevent something being built as a punishment for something. Might happen in some Tory areas of the UK, that's about it.

I think its more an Irish thing to frame things - like this debate on the GCOB - in terms of reward and punishment. Or perhaps more succintly 'you're either with us or against us'.

Question the need for a bypass and Galway planning strategies which have led to calls for a bypass = you're the enemy. Not exactly the most reasoned way to debate the merits of this scheme now is it?

It's also an Irish thing to try and discredit people who disagree with you, hence Sponge Bob before he was banned, Anto earlier in this thread and you here now using disrespectful language to people who have the temerity - how very dare they! - to hold a different opinion to you.

MYOB wrote: »

You may also want to inspect this thread. People are objecting because a planning routine wasn't in place thirty years ago. You don't appear to have realised that. You may be objecting about the present - although your posts don't seem to suggest that - but others clearly aren't

You realise that in that 30+ year time frame you mention, despite the fact Cork, Dublin & Belfast have managed to implement reasonable planning strategies - often through trial and error and with more then a pinch of corruption thrown into the mix - Galway hasn't really done anything similar? nothing, zilch. Nada. I think its quite nonsensical that other Irish cities have got their acts together eventually yet Galway seems to get some kind of exemption, as if it is special case that doesn't need anything like a fancy schmancy LUTS.

So with that in mind, I can't speak for anyone else but several contributors to this thread have made reasonable critiques on the need for the GCOB - as well wider issues relating to the knock-on effect of building it without the Galway LA's doing anything proactive at their end on the land use side of things.

You on the otherhand appear to suggest that appropriate planning regime's are some kind of side issue, an irrelavance even, to the issue of the GCOB. They most certainly are not.

L1011

TINA1984 wrote: »

No evidently I don't. Oh please cultured man of the world MYOB, please fill in the gaps for me, for I am but a simple country bumpkin. Truly you appear to be a font of wisdom and knowledge. Show me the error of my ways.....

No need to be so completely childish.

TINA1984 wrote: »

Question the need for a bypass and Galway planning strategies which have led to calls for a bypass = you're the enemy. Not exactly the most reasoned way to debate the merits of this scheme now is it?

You're arriving after two to three years of debate on here. The need has been debated, and proven to all but those who have extremely polarised positions.
You can read the old threads.

TINA1984 wrote: »

It's also an Irish thing to try and discredit people who disagree with you, hence Sponge Bob before he was banned, Anto earlier in this thread and you here now using disrespectful language to people who have the temerity - how very dare they! - to hold a different opinion to you.

In this case, its putting people in the same basket as those who have already been debating something with the exact same, nearly entirely irrelevant points for years.

TINA1984 wrote: »

You on the otherhand appear to suggest that appropriate planning regime's are some kind of side issue, an irrelavance even, to the issue of the GCOB. They most certainly are not.

In this case - yes, they are a side issue. The planning has been done and most critically, the buildings have been built and are in use. There is a problem on the ground that must be fixed, but people are obsessed with constant post mortems of why their is a problem.

You can fix the planning issues but the bypass is entirely needed, and no amount of fixing planning is going to make it un-needed. But it appears you can't accept that.

Constantly running back to previous planning issues is nothing more than throwing distractions in the way - a common tactic on here.

Con Logue

So, why the defensiveness? Is there some reason why opinions on this thread will somehow stop the bypass from being built?

L1011

Con Logue wrote: »

So, why the defensiveness? Is there some reason why opinions on this thread will somehow stop the bypass from being built?

If you read the recent posts without a blinkered view on, you'll see there's one poster being extremely defensive and it ain't me.

TINA1984

MYOB wrote: »

No need to be so completely childish.

You started it

MYOB wrote: »

You're arriving after two to three years of debate on here. The need has been debated, and proven to all but those who have extremely polarised positions.
You can read the old threads.

In this case, its putting people in the same basket as those who have already been debating something with the exact same, nearly entirely irrelevant points for years.

Well if a group of people on the internet have decided then that the GCOB is indeed needed then who am I to argue?

MYOB wrote: »

In this case - yes, they are a side issue. The planning has been done and most critically, the buildings have been built and are in use. There is a problem on the ground that must be fixed, but people are obsessed with constant post mortems of why their is a problem.

You can fix the planning issues but the bypass is entirely needed, and no amount of fixing planning is going to make it un-needed. But it appears you can't accept that.

Constantly running back to previous planning issues is nothing more than throwing distractions in the way - a common tactic on here.

Oh ye guys have decided now that planning issues are an irrelvance as well have ye? We may as well just shut the thread now so if that's the case. Do you want to PM the mod to lock it down or will I?

MYOB wrote: »

If you read the recent posts without a blinkered view on, you'll see there's one poster being extremely defensive and it ain't me.

Who's that then?

Con Logue

MYOB wrote: »

If you read the recent posts without a blinkered view on, you'll see there's one poster being extremely defensive and it ain't me.

Well, for the avoidance of any confusion I have a view that Galway is one of the worst examples of bad planning in Europe, and would support any measure that would attempt to make sense of it.

I've been caught in the traffic nightmare there on plenty of occasions but would be extremely skeptical that simply chucking a by-pass - which experiences teaches us will eventually be festooned with ribbon development, will give relief for maybe five years but eventually, unless the underlying issues with Land Use and Transportation in Galway are properly tackled, will end up being worse again.

galwayrush

The most obvious thing about the bypass is how much it would improve the existing city infrastructure by removing thousands of vehicles that are currently forced to drive through a narow corridor in order to cross the Corrib.
It won't solve all our traffic woes but it would be a major step in ther right direction.

L1011

TINA1984 wrote: »

You started it

No, I didn't. And this isn't a classroom

TINA1984 wrote: »

Well if a group of people on the internet have decided then that the GCOB is indeed needed then who am I to argue?

You could read the thousands of posts made on the topic already.

TINA1984 wrote: »

Oh ye guys have decided now that planning issues are an irrelvance as well have ye? We may as well just shut the thread now so if that's the case. Do you want to PM the mod to lock it down or will I?

I think its extremely obvious that past, unchangeable planning issues have absolutely zero relevance to whether a bypass is needed. And that is the entire topic of this thread.

A thread on Galway's past and future planning may be worthwhile but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It is nothing more than an attempt to avoid actually discussing the topic.

Con Logue

In fact, it isn't just my opinion that Galway's planning could improve. See link:http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/51354/galway-county-council-gets-f-grade-for-bad-planning

L1011

Con Logue wrote: »

In fact, it isn't just my opinion that Galway's planning could improve. See link:http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/51354/galway-county-council-gets-f-grade-for-bad-planning

Plenty of people agree with that - but it has zero relevance to whether a bypass is needed.

Con Logue

MYOB wrote: »

Plenty of people agree with that - but it has zero relevance to whether a bypass is needed.

I am puzzled at that. Land Use and Transportation provision are inextricably linked but seemingly not in Galway.

TINA1984

galwayrush wrote: »

The most obvious thing about the bypass is how much it would improve the existing city infrastructure by removing thousands of vehicles that are currently forced to drive through a narow corridor in order to cross the Corrib.
It won't solve all our traffic woes but it would be a major step in ther right direction.

Let's talk hypotheticals galwayrush. Say the GCOB is built, and the M17/18 follows in due course? whats going to happen?

Now to my mind, without any kind of cop on from the Galway LA's vis a vis implementing a LUTS. These brand shiny new roads are going to increase the attractiveness of new build one offs in the boreens and minor roads in and around the central Connacht area, as such in time the roads are going to get busy pretty quickly. Afterall if you can buy a house with a garden, 3 bedrooms, a view of the Atlantic and cows for neighbours for the same price as an apartment in downtown G-town, what are people going to consider? Afterall Eyre square is but less then an hour away from ballynowhere 80km away now thanks to the motorways.

So for sure,the commute from Mayo and West Galway is going to be quicker, but if you're funnelling even more commuters into the city via several junctions on the GCOB and M17/18 isn't it inevitable that these junctions are eventually going to fill up quickly and congestion onto and out of the GCOB & M6 is as inevitable as night follows day?

Bare in mind Galway and Mayo CC's have the highest incidences of granting of planning of one-off housing in the state.

The longer it takes for Galway to cop themselves on and implement a LUTS, the shorter the time its going to take for Galway to congest up again once the regions pet projects are built.

As such its critical that the Galway LA's do something wrt a LUTS now before the GCOB is funded, because afterall it is highly unlikely imo that they'll do anything about a LUTS after the GCOB & M17/18 is built.

What do you reckon will happen Galwayrush?

L1011

Con Logue wrote: »

I am puzzled at that. Land Use and Transportation provision are inextricably linked but seemingly not in Galway.

They're linked when planning for the future.

In this case there is a pressing need for a bypass for what is already built.

yer man!

I find it quite strange that some people are so against the bypass and say that public transport should be improved instead when you have the likes of London and Paris, two of the best public transport systems in the world and they both have bypasses. Obviously there is no comparison in size to Galway but bypasses are designed to alleviate congestion, what is there in Galway? congestion.... what would alleviate it? a bypass.... you could put in the best subway in the world in Galway and it would still need a bypass. Even in the Netherlands (arguably the best place in the world to cycle and one of the higher ridership stats) most of the major cities are bypassed to get congestion out.

TINA1984

MYOB wrote: »

No, I didn't. And this isn't a classroom

We entered into this exchange with you decrying my goodself as being ''petty'' & ''vindictive''. You then went on to tell me I don't have ''much knowledge of the world'' abd you then went into to portray me as somekind of Tory NIMBY.

All because I hold a differing opinion.

Man up and apologise for your offensive tone and comments. They're wholly unwarranted, we were all having a reasonably polite debate 'til you decided to stick your oar in.

MYOB wrote: »

You could read the thousands of posts made on the topic already.

Quantity does not equal quality in this instance.

MYOB wrote: »

I think its extremely obvious that past, unchangeable planning issues have absolutely zero relevance to whether a bypass is needed. And that is the entire topic of this thread.

A thread on Galway's past and future planning may be worthwhile but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It is nothing more than an attempt to avoid actually discussing the topic.

'fraid not. Again you are trying to seperate the issues of planning and infrastructure provision. That is just not logical. Sorry.

L1011

TINA1984 wrote: »

We entered into this exchange with you decrying my goodself as being ''petty'' & ''vindictive''. You then went on to tell me I don't have ''much knowledge of the world'' abd you then went into to portray me as somekind of Tory NIMBY.

All because I hold a differing opinion.

Man up and apologise for your offensive tone and comments. They're wholly unwarranted, we were all having a reasonably polite debate 'til you decided to stick your oar in.

None of those are childish (which is what you were claiming here), unwarranted or offensive except to someone who is extremely defensive about their position. It is not my problem if you're touchy, and there is absolutely nothing to apologise for.

TINA1984 wrote: »

Quantity does not equal quality in this instance.

When you're just repeating the same content as them, that's not really the issue is it?

TINA1984 wrote: »

'fraid not. Again you are trying to seperate the issues of planning and infrastructure provision. That is just not logical. Sorry.

The only illogical thing here is trying to claim that past planning can somehow be changed - which is what you, and others, imply when you repeatedly debate it as if it can be an altered factor in whether a bypass is needed. Once again, back to petty and vindictive tactics.

Con Logue

yer man! wrote: »

I find it quite strange that some people are so against the bypass and say that public transport should be improved instead when you have the likes of London and Paris, two of the best public transport systems in the world and they both have bypasses. Obviously there is no comparison in size to Galway but bypasses are designed to alleviate congestion, what is there in Galway? congestion.... what would alleviate it? a bypass.... you could put in the best subway in the world in Galway and it would still need a bypass. Even in the Netherlands (arguably the best place in the world to cycle and one of the higher ridership stats) most of the major cities are bypassed to get congestion out.

To be completely clear on the definition of Transport Planning - Transport does not just cover public transport. It also includes private car use, road provision and the nature of traffic catered for on those roads. Public transport is one aspect albeit a very important one. In the context of Galway it means that each area needs to be properly looked at in terms of population density, businesses in the area and other sources of employment.

This means that an intelligent look at the big picture is vital before jamming in more road infrastructure. Decisions regarding the sort of planning being catered for will need to be taken. Building a road now without a proper Land Use and Transportation Strategy will result in five years time it being saturated with housing and industrial estates, as has happened many many times before in Ireland. Constructing the bypass without the safeguard of a proper LUTS will be a waste of scarce resources now.

Plan properly and then build.

monument

WARNING TO ALL: Note mod warning in the opening post!

MYOB wrote: »

No need to be so completely childish.

...extremely polarised positions.

Deal with point. Do not attack the posters.

Play the ball. Not the man.

galwayrush

TINA1984 wrote: »

Let's talk hypotheticals galwayrush. Say the GCOB is built, and the M17/18 follows in due course? whats going to happen?

?

Simple, traffic will flow .The city centre will become attractive / safer for cyclists, more room for bus corridors. Less pollution , at the moment there are thousands of vehicles taking way too long to get through the severe bottlenecks , taking up to an hour to travel short distances.
The region is growing, will continue to do so, it's important to put some proper infrastructure to plan ahead for the future.

L1011

Con Logue wrote: »

Building a road and then, in five years time, that it gets saturated with housing and industrial estates, as has happened many many times before in Ireland, will be a waste of scarce resources now.

This has not happened to any great extent since road construction was turned over to the NRA. In 1993. Nothing like what happened before then.

There's towns where you'd expect the bypass would be littered with private entrances and development where there hasn't been a single change - such as Longford. Compared to the widescale development along older roads which have effectively ruined the fairly huge investment in wide single carriageways of the 60s to 80s. The NRA are much better at protecting their roads than local authorities are.

When the road in question is D2M-grade with limited junctions, as the GCOB is planned to be, it is an even rarer occurrence.

Con Logue

MYOB wrote: »

This has not happened to any great extent since road construction was turned over to the NRA. In 1993. Nothing like what happened before then.

There's towns where you'd expect the bypass would be littered with private entrances and development where there hasn't been a single change - such as Longford. Compared to the widescale development along older roads which have effectively ruined the fairly huge investment in wide single carriageways of the 60s to 80s. The NRA are much better at protecting their roads than local authorities are.

When the road in question is D2M-grade with limited junctions, as the GCOB is planned to be, it is an even rarer occurrence.

Good point, even though Longford does have its own breeze-block-arama at one end of the bypass.

But it isn't only about rubbish planning in the immediate vincinity of the bypass - feeding another National Route into the mix proves yet again that Galway is in dire need of a proper Land Use and Transportation Strategy - though this country's track record is appalling. Remember the National Spatial Strategy? Nice idea on paper until the pols and the usual vested interests got their claws into it.

A nice shiny bypass will be of bugger all use in another five years if more uncontrolled development keeps feeding into the Greater Galway Area, which with the M17/18 will expand even further.

TINA1984

MYOB wrote: »

This has not happened to any great extent since road construction was turned over to the NRA. In 1993. Nothing like what happened before then.

There's towns where you'd expect the bypass would be littered with private entrances and development where there hasn't been a single change - such as Longford. Compared to the widescale development along older roads which have effectively ruined the fairly huge investment in wide single carriageways of the 60s to 80s. The NRA are much better at protecting their roads than local authorities are.

When the road in question is D2M-grade with limited junctions, as the GCOB is planned to be, it is an even rarer occurrence.

No one here is doubting the NRA and their ability to protect their assets. The concern is the Galway LA's - who have shown little in the way of developing a cohesive LUTS, nevermind implementing one - failing to stymie demand for one-off housing and dispersed settlement near the GCOB and M17/18, just like they've failed to do anything of note with the infrastructure the state has already gifted them - the WRC & M6.

Now you appear to be of the opinion that the GCOB should be built like NOW, and we can get around to trifling issues like a LUTS AFTER the GCOB is built. It is my contention that a carrot/stick approach, as ably outlined by Aidan1 I believe, is needed to coax the Galway LA's into promulgating such a plan and sticking to it, in order to progress funding the GCOB, otherwise despite the NRA's best efforts the GCOB is just going to clog up in no time with Connacht commuters.

Remember, the NRA hasn't done the job all on its own in protecting its assets, its required co-operation from the more forward thinking LA's like in Cork, who conveniently enough have a LUTS in place for 30+ years.

galwayrush

We are already clogged up with traffic which will continue to grow, where do you suggest the extra traffic should go?
Perhaps we should prevent any more factories / offices locating to the west, let them all go to the east coast? let our kids follow because there won't be any jobs for them to survive here?

L1011

TINA1984 wrote: »

Now you appear to be of the opinion that the GCOB should be built like NOW, and we can get around to trifling issues like a LUTS AFTER the GCOB is built.

While. It'll take two or more years to build even if diggers went on site tomorrow morning.

TINA1984 wrote: »

Remember, the NRA hasn't done the job all on its own in protecting its assets, its required co-operation from the more forward thinking LA's like in Cork, who conveniently enough have a LUTS in place for 30+ years.

Cork has actually been amongst the worst if not the worst for hampering the NRA, they are in no way a paragon of virtue here. Slapping a set of traffic lights on a DC (albeit never used, Amgen) and building a shopping centre on an underspecced DC junction very close to a major non-grade-separated interchange do not show much care and attention. Both City and County councils.

TINA1984

MYOB wrote: »

While. It'll take two or more years to build even if diggers went on site tomorrow morning.

Plenty of time then for the Galway LA's to come up with a LUTS then eh? Of course one wonders what would happen if the Galway LA's actually did produce a plan which intended to focus housing and dvelopment in certain area's.

MYOB wrote: »

Cork has actually been amongst the worst if not the worst for hampering the NRA, they are in no way a paragon of virtue here. Slapping a set of traffic lights on a DC (albeit never used, Amgen) and building a shopping centre on an underspecced DC junction very close to a major non-grade-separated interchange do not show much care and attention. Both City and County councils.

Clare Co. Co have been the worse wrt the NRA. Cork LA's for all their faults and brown envelopes (!) have still done a decent job in focusing housing and jobs in the Cork metropolitan area in a reasonably well planned and concise manner. Its not perfect by any means, this is Ireland afterall, but still light years ahead of Galway.

Con Logue

galwayrush wrote: »

We are already clogged up with traffic which will continue to grow, where do you suggest the extra traffic should go?
Perhaps we should prevent any more factories / offices locating to the west, let them all go to the east coast? let our kids follow because there won't be any jobs for them to survive here?

As MYOB says, whatever happens there would be a two year lead time before any bypass would be finished.

A Land Use and Transportation Strategy would benefit Galway people. The whole point of that exercise would be to make Galway more attractive to industry and for better working and living conditions. Condemning people to life long traffic jams because the dots won't join together will make Galway even less attractive and will cause more jobs to be lost.

Con Logue

TINA1984 wrote: »

Plenty of time then for the Galway LA's to come up with a LUTS then eh? Of course one wonders what would happen if the Galway LA's actually did produce a plan which intended to focus housing and dvelopment in certain area's.



Clare Co. Co have been the worse wrt the NRA. Cork LA's for all their faults and brown envelopes (!) have still done a decent job in focusing housing and jobs in the Cork metropolitan area in a reasonably well planned and concise manner. Its not perfect by any means, this is Ireland afterall, but still light years ahead of Galway.

Indeed. I am fascinated as to why after the crash folks still seem to blithely accept the oul brown envelope culture and that means of protecting folks from all that flowed from that is somehow an optional extra.

Unless of course the right of a farmer to flog flood plain land for housing outside the jurisdiction of a city but within easy access of a motorway exit is an expression of his inalieable rights..

lucernarian

Con Logue wrote: »

I am puzzled at that. Land Use and Transportation provision are inextricably linked but seemingly not in Galway.

Putting up contextless statements is a rather brash attempt at adding to a debate, is it not?

Richard Logue

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Putting up contextless statements is a rather brash attempt at adding to a debate, is it not?

Argue the post not the man. Run out of arguments?

Con Logue

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Putting up contextless statements is a rather brash attempt at adding to a debate, is it not?

Have you read my posts on the previous two pages? I explained it there. So not a contextless statement. I'm not in the habit of repeating myself when I post and assume that those reading are following what has been said.

Iwannahurl

MYOB wrote: »

There are people who oppose the bypass ... solely because they don't actually want traffic to get any better unless its bikes/walking/buses that make it better. That is also petty and vindictive.

Well now, that's an interesting perspective. Are you suggesting that if Galway's traffic can be improved by LUTS/TDM approaches which reduce car dependence and car use, somehow that is inherently an undesirable outcome?

galwayrush wrote: »

We are already clogged up with traffic which will continue to grow

Really? Why so?

MYOB wrote: »

there is a pressing need for a bypass for what is already built.

yer man! wrote: »

congestion.... what would alleviate it? a bypass.... you could put in the best subway in the world in Galway and it would still need a bypass.

galwayrush wrote: »

thousands of vehicles taking way too long to get through the severe bottlenecks , taking up to an hour to travel short distances.

"Thousands of vehicles taking up to an hour to travel short distances." I've already illustrated, with an example, how travelling by car over a short distance (<4km) took around twice as long as travelling by bike. On much of the route I described, and which I see daily, traffic barely moves faster than walking pace. Indeed, on the other rare occasions when I drove, pedestrians actually passed me out.

Despite this snail's pace, thousands of motorists continue to do the same commute day after day during school term. They complain about it, and they keep coming back for more.

Those of you above who insist that congestion can only be alleviated by a bypass in the first instance, can you please address my earlier point regarding the considerable easing of traffic congestion when the schools are off, and the well-known return to jams when the schools are back?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84213562&postcount=136

How can it be the case that in a city where the current nature and extent of development allegedly results in traffic congestion almost as an organic process, and where a bypass is said to be urgently required as the primary means of alleviating the "severe bottlenecks", that the traffic is significantly less of a problem when the schools are off?

Where and why does the traffic go when the schools are off? Why does it come back with a vengeance when the schools return?

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

[M]y limited experience of [Galway] city, all outside term time, is that congestion seems to be a regular feature even when schools are closed.

Not correct. My experience, and that of many other Galwegians and city residents, is that traffic eases considerably when schools are off. It is for this reason that attempts are (sometimes) made to ensure that major roadworks are done outside of term time. The easing of congestion when schools are out also coincides with the influx of tourists during the summer, though major events like the Galway Races and the Volvo Ocean Race inevitably cause acute problems.

In any case, my point is that some easing of traffic congestion does occur at certain predictable times, which means that the phenomenon is cyclical, not continual.

MargeS wrote: »

I love the summer - no traffic jams to work.

yer man!

So basically Galway needs 1) A bypass and 2) good future planning procedures? have I missed anything?

Iwannahurl

yer man! wrote: »

have I missed anything?

Yes, my questions re the well-recognised cyclical connection between school term and traffic congestion in Galway City.

SeanW

Iwannahurl wrote: »

"Thousands of vehicles taking up to an hour to travel short distances." I've already illustrated, with an example, how travelling by car over a short distance (<4km) took around twice as long as travelling by bike. On much of the route I described, and which I see daily, traffic barely moves faster than walking pace. Indeed, on the other rare occasions when I drove, pedestrians actually passed me out.

I could be wrong here but I assume that - like all bypasses - the GCOB is planned to facilitate people whose journey start/destination is not in Galway city. e.g. people coming from Athenry and points East going towards Cliften/Oughterard/Spiddal etc and vice versa. As a Motorway, it would have limited junctions, not much use for "city" use.

The problem is that THIS traffic must go through Galway City urban area at present. What do you suggest these people do? Drive to the Galway city limits, put the car on their back, cycle through the City and then plonk the car back down on the road when they get to the M6? They have no reason to be in the city, which like it or not extends out to the old 'bypass' (at a major hospital and around 500 meters from Eyre Square).

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

As for my recent stupid decision to drive rather than cycle, sitting in stalled traffic that day felt like the height of stupidity. I've been cycling since I was a child. I know what the wind can be like, and that day was by no means stormy.

Then you were not in Galway because my car (a 4 door saloon) was being buffeted by the winds all along the N6 corrdior - which does not happen in light winds.

galwaycyclist

SeanW wrote: »

I could be wrong here but I assume that - like all bypasses - the GCOB is planned to facilitate people whose journey start/destination is not in Galway city. e.g. people coming from Athenry and points East going towards Cliften/Oughterard/Spiddal etc and vice versa. As a Motorway, it would have limited junctions, not much use for "city" use.

What is the population of Clifden/Oughterard/Spiddal? Why would this population need a motorway standard road? Genuine question not trying to be sarcastic.

SeanW wrote: »

The problem is that THIS traffic must go through Galway City urban area at present. What do you suggest these people do? Drive to the Galway city limits, put the car on their back, cycle through the City and then plonk the car back down on the road when they get to the M6? They have no reason to be in the city, which like it or not extends out to the old 'bypass' (at a major hospital and around 500 meters from Eyre Square).

No you have missed the point. The issue is not the likely relatively light traffic trying to get around the city to other destinations. The issue is what is being done with the traffic whose destination is within the city. The issue is not forcing people on long distance journies onto bikes but why so many people making very very short journies within the city have been forced into cars. Why are people from outside the city who work in the city not being diverted onto park and ride before they reach the Quincentenial Bridge?

lucernarian

Richard Logue wrote: »

Argue the post not the man. Run out of arguments?

Please accept my apologies, that was an incomplete post. Nonetheless I didn't agree with it at all and I thought the post I quoted was purile and unsupported. If you have a problem with my post, you can use the report button.

I will respond later with a more complete relpy.

antoobrien

TINA1984 wrote: »

Not sure what you're getting at here. You originally countered my point that there has been more growth in the hinterlands of urban area's then the urban area's themselves with polished stats to suggest otherwise in Galways case. Of course when you put your % through the ringer, the opposite was the case.

what I'm getting at is that the growth in the county has been happening in the "urban areas, not rurla areas. When you get the aggregate rural area (something that has to be calculated manually for older census reports), this population only increases by about 20,000 in 55 years.

TINA1984 wrote: »

Almost 2/3 of all residential planning permission granted by Galway Co.Co over the past decade or so has been for one off housing, the only other local authority in the state with a higher % is Mayo CC!

I wonder how does a county that does not have the most one offs end up worst? Mayo isn't 1st, 2nd or even 3rd in raw numbers, so how does it fare so poorly.

There were 15,797 one offs in Co Galway over the ten year period of that An Tasice report. In Co Dublin there were 7361 one off permissions.

Why are people not questioning the fact that half the number of permissions that were granted in Co Galway were granted for an area 1/7th the size of County Galway?

Co Meath shows 1/3 the number of one offs for a count 1/3 the size of Galway.

Co Mayo (10% smaller) somehow comes off worse than Galway despite having 5000 less permissions granted for one off housing, how the f**k does that happen?

If you want to go off one one regarding planning let's look at some figures of one offs per square KM, because Galway & Mayo between them 15% of the LA area in the Republic.

I did an alternative version of the An Tasice report, which looks at % of one off houses per square km. Under the AT rankings "best" 3 were Fingal, SDCC & Meath. Under the amount of one offs per sq km the worst three offenders are DCC, Cork City & DLR (with Galway City 4 & SDCC 5).

There are far more flaws with that An Tasice Report such as:

• SDCC, DLR, & Fingal are all heavily implicated in Mahon, yet are ranked officially 1, 2 & 4
• DCC (9) & Fingal developments are riddled with Saftey (there are several more Priory Hall scenarios waiting to happen) & Pyrite problems
• Dublin Docklands think they can grant planning permission to overrule DCC (ABP said otherwise)
• Fingal (4) has the highest number of ghost estates in the country
• A single burst pipe in Galway City (ranked 3) knocks out water for approximately 1/4 of the population

TINA1984 wrote: »

I used the term 'metro' Galway loosely, hence the comma marks, as there doesn't appear to be a defined metro Galway

When the Galway councils get their arse in order and come up with an appropriate LUTS for the metro Galway area - which they actually intend to implement as opposed to paying lip service to- then perhaps we can start taking seriously the idea of a metro Galway and can fund appropriate road and public transport infrastructure.

Why do people who know nothing about Galway get away with posting this tripe?

Instead of arguing based on inaccurate and misleading information, I suggest you educate yourself on the so called smarter travel plan for Galway, which defines the metro area.

TINA1984 wrote: »

As already mentioned Western politicians are adept at championing & securing infrastructure funding from the state, but not so great at putting in appropriate planning measures for best use of said infrastructure.

Nobody had been. Lets punish Dublin, Cork, Limerick & Waterford by not letting them build a single new house or apartment until they get their PT networks up to a level that makes cars not an option in those bypassed cities.

TINA1984 wrote: »

As pointed out, farmers and landowners can look forward to a bonanza as it'll be possible to build a one-off somewhere in deepest NW Co. Galway/Mayo and still commute in a reasonable time into Galway city & surrounds once the GCOB and M17/18 are built.

Again this myths are coming out, it's been very hard for anyone to get PP in the countryside in the past 5 or so years, unless they are from the area. I wasn't born in the parish and despite living there for 27 years, for planning purposes I'm not entitled to a one off unless I buy a house and knock it!

TINA1984 wrote: »

You could put a half hourly service for 20 hours a day on the WRC and it'll still have astonishingly poor loadings for the same reason it does now. Namely, not many people live in the bustling metropolis' of Gort, Craughwell etc.

Now that would be a waste of money. It only needs about 6 trains a day to be effective, but they need to be at the right times. A first train that arrives in Ceannt Station for 8.05 is too late for business that start at 8 (which is most of factories in Galway).

TINA1984 wrote: »

Y'know county Meath has far, far more people living in it then in the area you've mentioned right? To take your example to an extreme, Co. Kerry is bigger then Meath, should we build some motorway there as well?

As one would expect with several medium/large towns in the area.

TINA1984 wrote: »

FYI businessess are being "lost" everywhere in Ireland right now.

Lol, there is a historical drain front he west of Ireland going back to the 80s & 90s and you concentrate on the past 5 years.

TINA1984 wrote: »

y'know an invisible county border doesn't automatically demarcate a boundary where people will stop commuting to a city or town?

Indeed, but census figures tell us that there are what, 457 people that are coming north from Clare/Limerick to Galway city. But since the original attack was on Galway CC.....

TINA1984 wrote: »

Hmm lets see, 2/3 of all Co. Galway PP granted is for one-off housing. Do you really think these people living in all these new one-offs - remember Galway county population has expanded by 60k -are just locals who aren't commuting to the major employment centres? I think not.

Ah change of tack now, so the fact that they are not all commuting to Galway city and might be going to Ballinasloe or Loughrea is somehow relevant to a thread on a Galway bypass? I should have know when you brought the M17/18 into it.

Your rants read like something out of the James Nix stable of misguided research. Have a read of this paper that nix presented to the Irish Planning Institute.

tldr; it's a very poorly researched pile of crap that is used to support his views on why there should be a LVT based property tax.

Con Logue

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Please accept my apologies, that was an incomplete post. Nonetheless I didn't agree with it at all and I thought the post I quoted was purile and unsupported. If you have a problem with my post, you can use the report button.

I will respond later with a more complete relpy.

I am perplexed as to how arguing that Galway needs a LUTS is somehow "puerile". As I will be away until Tuesday please feel free to kick around that substantive point until I return.

yer man!

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Yes, my questions re the well-recognised cyclical connection between school term and traffic congestion in Galway City.

So by that logic there should be no traffic for 3 months in year when when the schools are off, oh wait, there is.

antoobrien

Con Logue wrote: »

I am perplexed as to how arguing that Galway needs a LUTS is somehow "puerile".

It has one, it's just not published in a single coherent document. Parts of it are covered in the various development plans, parts under transport strategies and parts under the flawed* smarter travel plan.

*Parts of the plan based on traffic estimates are totally unrealistic as they are based on the assumption that there will be 0% growth in car use, despite the historical average of 2% population growth per annum. It's hard to believe that population growth in Galway will happen without a single extra car being added. This leaves aside the fact that Galway City is a fast growing economic hub, which will mean more jobs and more people trying to access Galway. There will be a lot of people that will not be able to afford to move/sell in the next 5-15 years until bubble priced mortgages get paid down towards market levels, so that will in turn mean more strain on the transport network in Galway.

I have other issues with it, including the assumptions that both Glaus & GCOB will be built - with no case dealing with the "worst case" of neither being built, leaving the status quo - a bus only mass transit system for Galway.

I'm for plans but this plan was rejected as a viable coherent strategy by the government in favour of putting in individual parts of the infrastructure that are needed, e.g. proposals for 3rd lane bus lanes (which I detest as being worse than useless) in places like Wellpark Rd.

antoobrien

yer man! wrote: »

So by that logic there should be no traffic for 3 months in year when when the schools are off, oh wait, there is.

Bearing in mind there has been a national drop of up to 10% in road traffic, it'd be interesting to see what people in Galway think the effect of the notional 10% drop in traffic has had on traffic in the city.

Seeing as the reported traffic reduction is roughly equivalent to a combined 50% increase in the modal shares of cycling and buses since the peak of traffic use (those arguments haven't changed since the proposed bypass routes were published 12 years ago), one wonders if the modal share change proposals are as scalable as some would have us believe.

redarmyblues

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/leo-varadkar-says-no-new-roads-but-existing-network-will-get-emergency-repairs-29117874.html

BY PAUL MELIA – 08 MARCH 2013

NO new local or regional roads will be built or upgraded over the coming years, Transport Minister Leo Varadkar has said.
There was "no point" in building new carriageways at a time when much of the road network is in need of urgent repairs, and extra funding will be made available for emergency maintenance works.

And he said that some €42m would be re-allocated from existing budgets to complete emergency repairs.

The announcement comes because there is a massive backlog of emergency works which need to be carried out across the road network.

There is some 100,000km of local, regional and national roads across the county, one of the highest in the EU per head of population, and outstanding repairs will cost more than €3bn to complete.

However, cuts in funding over recent years - coupled with two harsh winters which caused widespread damage - means the network is not being maintained.

Speaking this morning, Mr Varadkar said it was "obvious" that some road surfaces needed work.

He also said:

- Some 29 local authorities will be allowed re-allocate €42m earmarked for improvements - such as removing dangerous bends - for emergency repairs.

- Another €2.7m in new funding will be made available to improve drainage.

- This means it will "not be possible" to start any new road projects "in the immediate future".

"It is obvious to anyone who lives or drives through rural areas that some road surfaces are in need of repair," he said.

"As well as the usual winter damage, increasing rainfall levels have caused significant damage in recent years. Surface water is a particular problem because it undermines roads and causes potholes.

"Because resources are so limited, this focus on maintenance means it won't be possible to start any new local or regional road construction projects in the next couple of years. While this will be a disappointment to some areas, there is no point in building new roads if we cannot maintain the existing network."


I happened on this thread by chance, I wasn't aware that Galway had any major traffic issues never mind that this road was planned, (even though I am in Galway once or twice a year) so i don't claim to know the rights and wrongs of it, though I was amazed travelling out to Recess from Galway a few years ago at the amount of housing along the road which kind of spoiled the tourist experience.

It is hard to justify and I am sure harder to persuade the Troika of the need to spend €330m on a motorway standard road to nowheresville, that adds zero to a joined up national road network, anyway Varadkar is on record as saying the Atlantic Corridor is a priority for road spending so it is hard to see it going ahead in its current form before the oil runs out. I am a little amused at presumptions that the project is a matter of the most immediate and important consequence, let us not pay back a penny of what we owe and let the childer starve but don't delay me at the lights.

Does Galway need the road? Maybe.
Will it get the Kybosh from Europe or the State? Probably.
Are Galway people the most self obsessed in this benighted Isle? Definitely.

Iwannahurl

antoobrien wrote: »

Then you were not in Galway because my car (a 4 door saloon) was being buffeted by the winds all along the N6 corrdior - which does not happen in light winds.

Non sequitur. Farcical also, since junior attended the Galway City school in question on that day.

I wouldn't call it stormy. Very windy, gusty or some such (we spotted a small poorly-rooted tree down on the way), but not stormy. In any case, IWH-OH had no problems with the perfect storm, and cycled to work as usual, with nothing pass-remarkable to report later.

Maybe the "buffeting" you experienced and the "struggling" you saw could be explained by "observation bias"?

I recall an interesting study done by a medic in UHG a few years ago, in which respondents' perceptions of the frequency of adverse weather were compared with a daily record of the actual conditions experienced by the researcher while cycling to work. There was a sizeable gap between what respondents believed was the frequency of rain versus the real-world findings of the study.

Iwannahurl

yer man! wrote: »

So by that logic there should be no traffic for 3 months in year when when the schools are off, oh wait, there is.

Note to self. Must. Not. Mention. Straw. Men.

Can you answer the real questions, please, regarding the well-known phenomenon of significantly less traffic congestion when the schools are off?

Iwannahurl

antoobrien wrote: »

Bearing in mind there has been a national drop of up to 10% in road traffic, it'd be interesting to see what people in Galway think the effect of the notional 10% drop in traffic has had on traffic in the city.

Seeing as the reported traffic reduction is roughly equivalent to a combined 50% increase in the modal shares of cycling and buses since the peak of traffic use (those arguments haven't changed since the proposed bypass routes were published 12 years ago), one wonders if the modal share change proposals are as scalable as some would have us believe.

Care to address the matter of the well-known reduction in traffic congestion when the schools are off?

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Maybe the "buffeting" you experienced and the "struggling" you saw could be explained by "observation bias"?

While I was driving in a straight line on a dry road, while noticing strong buffeting of the car, I noticed a cyclist - approx 75m-100m on front of me (looked about the same distance as I'd hit a sand wedge in good conditions) - swerve wildly for no visible reason (the manoeuvre was too radical for a dodge) at the same time as I felt the winds hit the car. I watched the cycle path as I passed, couldn't see anything on it to explain the manoeuvre the cyclist performed.

Unlike some people I could mention, I don't look for facts to fit a theory, I let all the facts dictate the theory.

edit

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I wouldn't call it stormy. Very windy, gusty or some such (we spotted a small poorly-rooted tree down on the way),

I never said stormy, I said strong winds. Interestingly my impression of the weather is backed up by weather and traffic reports on Tuesday morning indicating power lines down in Knocknacara & some trees down in the county. I wasn't aware of the issues with the power lines or trees until I listened to the reports that I missed as the radio wasn't on, but I'm not in the least bit surprised.

yer man!

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Note to self. Must. Not. Mention. Straw. Men.

Can you answer the real questions, please, regarding the well-known phenomenon of significantly less traffic congestion when the schools are off?

Jesus christ obviously LESS!!!!!!!!!!!!! traffic is what I meant, yes on some routes there is less congestion when schools are off but why is there congestion then during summer? that's when colleges finish, secondary and national schools are off.