After 14 Years - It's Time and I Need Advice

PhotogTom

My dog, Kelly, a choc lab is 14 years old, white muzzled, 50 yards in the garden tires her out and she spends most of her time by the fire.

In our life together, she has
1) enjoyed riding on our jet ski when we lived in Florida
2) hunted ducks in Florida swamps from an airboat
3) boated and hiked all over Florida
4) flown the Atlantic in a cargo hold and moved to Ireland with me and my wife
5) hunted ducks on the Shannon River
6) helped me renovate an abandoned farm building into a home for all of us (rode in the van each day to collect supplies, sat in the sun while I swung a hammer!)
7) gone on uncountable hiking and hill walking trips with me
8) did i mention she put up with having both hips replaced when she was 2?

and now, I have to think when is the right time to put her down!

After being a "bullet proof" dog in terms of house training, she started wetting her bed. A dose of antibiotic cleared it up only to start again. On the third problem in as many weeks, and after finding lots of blood in her urine, the vet did an ultrasound and found a tumor on her bladder and possibly on her liver as well.

Surgery isn't an option at her age.

She is bright eyed, alert and affectionate but it seems the cancer is progressing and she can't stay on antibiotics all the time.

In bits over it, but how do I decide when? She is on antibiotics now which will probably clear up the current symptoms.

The vet will come to the house for us. Should I have him come next weekend when she will probably be at her best in terms of having just finished the antibiotics? Or wait until she has symptoms again? Going on past form that will just be one day the following week.

How do I know when the right time is? She isn't in paid now that I can tell but it isn't fair to let the cancer spread so she is either in pain or sopping wet from not being able to control her bladder.

I knew the day was coming, just never thought it would be so hard.

DBB

What a sad, sad post, and I think most people here will understand exactly how you feel now. What a great life she's had!
I was exactly the same situation as you with my German Shepherd, she was diagnosed with liver cancer two years ago. I decided to let her enjoy what time she had left, which as it happens was 7 weeks post-diagnosis. I treasured every moment. Being the obliging Shep that she was, she made that final decision for me: she went downhill extremely rapidly, in the space of hours, and I knew by her face that it was time to say goodbye.
People say that you see a look in your old pal's eyes and you "just know". I had my doubts, but it's true... You really do just know when you see that look.
And I think that's often how it goes with liver cancer. If that means throwing drugs at her to relieve the incontinence , what harm? As long as her quality of life is there, it'd be my choice to give her time, then act fast, very fast, when you see her starting to become uncomfortable. My shep was running around like a loolah on the Wednesday afternoon, up to all her funny old tricks. Less than 24 hours later, she was gone.
I hope this helps to give you some sort of guidance. Yours is a very lucky dog to have had such loving owners.

Hooked

I've no real advice OP... I just wanted to say I've spent yesterday and now (up early) today carefully watching a small wart (I think) on my 2 year old Husky's paw as if it was some life threatening infection. Cleaning it, watching his movement and ensuring its not causing any discomfort... They really do claw right into our hearts.

I have no idea, none... How I'd be in your shoes, another 10 or 12 years down the line... Having added so many more trips, holidays, and memories to the ones he's given us these last 2 years.

Reading over your numbered/bulleted list, I only hope we get to look back and have one that's comparable to yours.

As DBB says above, enjoy the rest of the time you have together by reducing the pain/discomfort where you can, maybe add a couple more things to that fantastic list, and I guess... Try and prepare yourselves as best you can.

And congratulations on giving your pet such a wonderful life...

jimf

jaysus what a tear jerker to read first thing sunday morning and im here nearly in tears its just brought back my own memories when i had to make the very same sad decisions you now have to make but i think you will just know yourself as dbb says when the time is right i know i did and please dont feel guilty when you do it its the last great act of love you can show to them after all you have been lucky to have both quantity and quality of life with her

Pumpkinseeds

I'm really sorry OP,its one of the hardest decisions we have to make in life. I think letting them go on a good day for them before they have a lot of pain and stress is the final kindness we can give them.

PhotogTom

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. My brain says do it "a week too soon" which the vet said is better than "a week too late". But, it is very hard to even consider it when she's looking at me, asking for nothing more than a biscuit . . .
And, several have said I'll know when it's time but I don't want her to suffer either.
I'm going to give it a few days, let the antibiotics work and see how she and I feel mid week.
Thanks again and it really helps to use this type of forum to get some of my thoughts and feelings down on "paper".

jimf

you seem to have a vet that understands your dilemma as well which is a great help ask him/her to explain the signs of stress / pain to you and watch closely for either my thoughts are with you its so sad but as pet owners it comes to all our doors their not just animals their family members after all

Inexile

Oh dear so sad reading your post. My 12 girl has just been diagnosed with liver cancer and we have started her on a course of steroids and other tablets which are being dispensed with a lot of hope. Thankfully while she has some urinary problems she is having any accidents in doors yet.

However, we know that at some stage in the future and possibly not too distance future the tablets and hope will no longer work and we will have to make "the decision".

Im looking at my girl and have decided that once she doesnt enjoy her scamp around the woods, loses interest in food and generally loses the zest for life then it will be time. I wont wait until she is in serious pain. I dont see why I should let her get really bad before we call it. But thats just me.

Not sure that I have any help to you OP but I do feel your situation. It sounds like you have given your dog a great life and unfortunately at some point you will have to let it a good end. I think a decent ending for any dog is a sign of respect to it and acknowledges the wonderful contribution they made to our own lives.

snoman

I just thanked each and every contributer and then realised I should just contribute myself! What an amazingly open post, and how desperately relevant to each and every pet owner. My lady's white muzzled, stiff gaited but with a bit smiley, optimistic face and a love of her life. It my and I think everyone's nightmare that we won't read the signs and get the timing right for letting go. All we can do is trust our instincts and let them tell us, I guess.

DBB

Inexile wrote: »

Im looking at my girl and have decided that once she doesnt enjoy her scamp around the woods, loses interest in food and generally loses the zest for life then it will be time. I wont wait until she is in serious pain. I dont see why I should let her get really bad before we call it. But thats just me.

Sorry to hear your sad news too in exile. I hope I don't seem insensitive when I say this, but it's possible, perhaps even likely, that the line between your dog having a ball, and going suddenly downhill, could be very narrow indeed. Certainly in my experience, which mirrors that of quite a dog owners I've talked with whose dogs were diagnosed with liver cancer, nobody intended to let their dog suffer at all... But the dog tends to be very good up until a very short time before you realise the time has come.
It certainly surprised me, but it was also some comfort that my lady had enjoyed herself fully right up to the end... She started to get uncomfortable late on the Wednesday night, and was pts the following morning.
So making the call can be very difficult with this condition, there tends not to be a slow slide into pain. Which is a mercy in its own way.
Good luck to you and op with what's ahead. Enjoy them like never before! I hope they're both around for a while yet.

ABajaninCork

I'm so sorry OP. We all know what it's like to lose a much loved pet. And letting them go is one of the toughest decisions you'll ever have to make.

I had a cat. He really was my best mate. A cantankerous, contrary, SoB. He came over with me when I moved here at the grand old age of 14. By the Christmas, he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. Vet opened him up, took one look and called me. The cancer was so bad, he refused to operate. I took the decision to close him up, bring him round and I would take him home to enjoy whatever time he had left, which the vet told me would be a matter of weeks.

But being the tough, contrary B he was, my boy fought. Boy, did he fight. Every month, I would call the vet for more Prendisolone. Every month, they would express astonishment he was still with us. We brought in a puppy who the cat decided had to be put in his place - quick! Still, he was there. And we forgot the cat was terminally ill. He didn't look it. And he certainly never behaved like it.

But the end came. He just decided he'd had enough. I don't know how we knew but we did. The drive to the vet was awful. The cat for once was quiet. Just kept looking at us as though to say Goodbye.

I made sure I told him how much I loved him and would never forget him, and made sure my face was the last thing he saw as he died in my arms. In the end, we had two more wonderful years with him.

What I'm trying to say is: Don't put a time limit on it. The dog had a wonderful life with you, and will let you know when it's time.

Inexile

DBB - Not insensitive at all. We had to put one of our other dogs down* two years ago - actually she was a litter mate to the 12 year old. She was diagnosed with a cancer in the nose that was inoperable. One Sunday she was chasing gulls on the beach , on Monday we brought her to the specialist vet in Cork and got the bad news. We were given tablets for her and told she may only have 3 weeks left. However, by Wednesday we decided to let her go and Thursday we brought her to the park for a final run and play and then went to the vet. I couldnt see why I should let my dog get sicker, especially in that instance we knew the timeframe. Also our other dogs twice started fighting with her so we would have had to crate her for safety when we werent there. Given the limited time and the fact that we would be changing her lifestyle we felt it was for the best. I suppose if Im honest it didnt help that everytime OH or I looked the dog we were welling up with tears. I dont think either of us could have done three week of that.

(* what a stupid expression - but so is put to sleep and euthanaesia feels a little too clinical)

Last October we had the same decision to make about our 12 year old Westie. She was totally blind in one eye, very deaf and had developed diabetes. The day we decided to be D Day, she looked at us as if she knew and was ready. We dug a grave and had the vet come to the house. He did the deed with her in her bed. We then wrapped her in her blanket and carried her to her final resting place. We stood crying over her before we covered the grave in. We will plant a tree next to her this year. We know we did the right thing, but we still miss her every day. You will know when the time is right. If you are burying her instead of cremation, have the grave dug beforehand. It'll be impossible to do afterwards!
Good Luck and thanks for sharing your story with us. x x

aonb

nothing to add only that I feel for you... keep consoling yourself that your dog has had a lovely life, loves you to bits, you have cared for and kept her safe, and now its time for you to make sure she doesnt have an hour of pain before you take care of her again, as always.

I have a 15 year old little guy who is in great form but I know the day is coming too...

anniehoo

PhotogTom wrote: »

How do I know when the right time is?

It's inexplicable to be honest with you OP. Anyone who gets to this stage with their pets does the same questioning. I did the same myself. Only you know your pet and how much you're willing to put BOTH of yourselves through. I went through 2 1/2 years on and off with Lymphoma chemo treatment with my dog and when her kidneys started to fail (xmas 09), she was very bad. I was done tbh (it was a long hard slog for both of us). She perked up after a few days on a drip and was brilliant for another 3 weeks and was still brilliant until her kidney enzymes sky rocketed. She was in renal failure...but hadn't reached the point where she was feeling it. It would've gotten worse.I'd put her through enough,she'd been through enough....we'd been through enough.

Jan 2010, with the snow, i had an amazing vet who travelled out to me and put her to sleep. I will NEVER forget that day, as i had the final decision. She was in great form....but we had gone through 2 1/2 years of treatment before this, 2 years more than i ever though i would get. The day was particularly poignant as her "trick" was "give the paw", something she'd been very well used to with her treatment.

wrote:

I knew the day was coming, just never thought it would be so hard.

She "gave the paw" for the final injection. I wont lie. It was HEARTBREAKING. I genuinely haven't felt such raw emotion before and bawled my head off. But, i was content in the decision i had made. WE WERE DONE. I had to make the right decision for her (for us) and that's our job as their guardians. We're lucky we can afford them a dignified end and that's how i saw it. I had pets when i was a kid, where my parents always had the final say, but this was my choice...as a pet that transgressed my youth to adulthood. I don't regret one single decision i made.

You WILL KNOW when the time is right.

Inexile

Firstly apologies to PhotogTom I dont mean to hijack your thread but I want to ask Annihoo some thing.

Second thing is Mods Im have consulted with vets so am not trying to get medical info via this forum. Just wondering if there is light at the end of the tunnel the other side or just the headlight of the ongoing train

Ok so my dog started meds this week but this morning she was been sick about 6 times. I didnt feed her or give her meds as couldnt see the point if she couldnt keep either down. She was not even keeping water down. I have rang vets and they have suggested I give my dog immodium, which I have just done. Vet has indicated that its not a good sign if my dog cant keep down water.
So Im just wondering Annihoo did you go through similar and come out ok or am I looking at an end stage. If my dog doesnt improve today I will be bringing her back to the vets for a review.

jimf

Inexile wrote: »

Firstly apologies to PhotogTom I dont mean to hijack your thread but I want to ask Annihoo some thing.

Second thing is Mods Im have consulted with vets so am not trying to get medical info via this forum. Just wondering if there is light at the end of the tunnel the other side or just the headlight of the ongoing train

Ok so my dog started meds this week but this morning she was been sick about 6 times. I didnt feed her or give her meds as couldnt see the point if she couldnt keep either down. She was not even keeping water down. I have rang vets and they have suggested I give my dog immodium, which I have just done. Vet has indicated that its not a good sign if my dog cant keep down water.
So Im just wondering Annihoo did you go through similar and come out ok or am I looking at an end stage. If my dog doesnt improve today I will be bringing her back to the vets for a review.

does your dog have kidney problems

DBB

An ailing liver makes them feel nauseous In Exile, I think it's probably like having a hangover without the headache. A lot of foods may make her feel nauseous even to sniff, even if she'd no trouble with that food before.
In my case, we went really simple with the diet.... Pureed veg and steamed chicken or fish, as fatty foods will make her feel ick. I also supplemented with milk thistle, and ginger, the latter helps ease that nausea.
My shep got bouts of vomiting too, but they tended to pass. That said, no harm at all to get the vet to check her out.
Good luck, I'll have you both in my thoughts.

anniehoo

Inexile wrote: »

So Im just wondering Annihoo did you go through similar and come out ok or am I looking at an end stage. If my dog doesnt improve today I will be bringing her back to the vets for a review.

My dog had a B- Cell Multicentric Lymphoma, so primarily a "cancer of the lymph nodes" to put it as its basic term. I genuinely cant answer your question with a definite answer for you and that's not fobbing you off as the term "cancer" is so generic.It also depends on the breed of dog, age, what stage its been diagnosed (I to V, my dog was stage III) and what treatment protocol he's on.

With regards to canine lymphoma it can be classed as B or T cell, with T cell having the worst prognosis. The treatment options were maintenance with a steroid with a shorter life span (which most people opt for due to the expense and time constraints involved with doing the full CHOP chemo protocol), which generally has a longer survival time. I was lucky enough to be able to avail of the CHOP protocol (cyclophosphamide,doxorubicin,vincristine, prednisone) over a 15-18 week time frame. She was 17mths in remission after the first go.Without treatment, we were looking at 6-9 mths max to live, with maintenance therapy possibly a year. With the CHOP i got 31mths from start to finish, with a second round at 18mths. This is NOT for the feint hearted i tell ya. It was time consuming and VERY very expensive, but she tolerated the chemo incredibly well, until as i said, her kidneys started to fail at month 30. That's why i said above "we were done". I was content with my decision because i literally could not have done anymore for her. This disease isn't cured, it just goes into remission and the remission times get shorter for every round of treatment they do.

If your vet has explained all of the treatment options available and they are doing all they can, then imho if he is likely to deteriorate further, i would do the kindest thing for him and don't let him suffer further. Thats just me though ok. Most vets wont tell you directly that "its time", they would like you to make your own mind up, with their help of course.

Sadderday

So sorry to hear such sad news. Thinking of you.

magoooo

Such a sad thread. One of my dogs is 13 and I dread that time getting close. Sounds like you're not quite ready yet, but good luck; whatever you decide will be ok.

Inexile

thanks all for the replies.

My dog has lymphona and the problem lies with her liver. We didnt get an option re treatment that Anniehoo was. But to be honest I think I would have gone with the one we were given, steroids and a tablet that helps the liver function.

I gave my dog a handful, literally a handful of rice while giving the immodium and even that didnt stay down. However, I have now realised, through google, that the tablet that supports the liver should be given on an empty stomach. Previously I had been given all tablets with food so to get them down her. So Im going to try that one by itself today. The steroids cause the nausea so not sure what to do about that.

The dog's mood has been up and down all day. She was miserable this morning, then good on her walk, then was sick again and was glum, she perked up massively when I gave her the bit of rice and now back to miserable.

I know I wont hesitate to call it once I know that its time. but my problem is I dont know where Im at the moment. Im just not sure if this is a hiccup that can be resolved by adjusting meds or has the disease progress so far that we are only faffing around.

From speaking with the vet on the first consultation I fairly confident that we werent at the end just yet and there was room for optisim. I will see what the evening brings and if no improvement will check back in with the vet.

PhotogTom

I can't tell you how much I appreciate the time spent and emotion expressed in these replies.
My dog shakes hands (with her paw!) and give me five as well. Hasn't been able to roll over for several years because of her bad hips. The thought of telling her "shake" with the vet there has me in bits, tbh!

Thanks also for lending an ear so to speak. Its very strange, I can (pretty much) think about what needs doing, write about it OK, but I go to pieces whenever I try to verbalize it with my wife and friends.


Bluntly, she has inoperable cancer. She isn't going to get better -she's only going to continue to have problems - lethargy,little appetite and losing control of her bladder. The antibiotics clear it up for a few days and she's bright eyed, in control, good appetite, etc.

It's all well and good to say I'll know when it is time. But, the reality is do I call the vet in to put her to sleep this weekend when she will be as good as possible? Or, do I wait until she's had another relapse and is uninterested in anything going on around her and sopping wet from loss of bladder control?

My head says this weekend but its ripping my heart out asking the vet to put her to sleep when she's wagging her tail and asking for a treat!

I'm not really looking for an answer but it really helps to have this forum to get it out of me. I hope I'm not re-opening any wounds for anyone.

jimf

PhotogTom wrote: »

I can't tell you how much I appreciate the time spent and emotion expressed in these replies.
My dog shakes hands (with her paw!) and give me five as well. Hasn't been able to roll over for several years because of her bad hips. The thought of telling her "shake" with the vet there has me in bits, tbh!

Thanks also for lending an ear so to speak. Its very strange, I can (pretty much) think about what needs doing, write about it OK, but I go to pieces whenever I try to verbalize it with my wife and friends.


Bluntly, she has inoperable cancer. She isn't going to get better -she's only going to continue to have problems - lethargy,little appetite and losing control of her bladder. The antibiotics clear it up for a few days and she's bright eyed, in control, good appetite, etc.

It's all well and good to say I'll know when it is time. But, the reality is do I call the vet in to put her to sleep this weekend when she will be as good as possible? Or, do I wait until she's had another relapse and is uninterested in anything going on around her and sopping wet from loss of bladder control?

My head says this weekend but its ripping my heart out asking the vet to put her to sleep when she's wagging her tail and asking for a treat!

I'm not really looking for an answer but it really helps to have this forum to get it out of me. I hope I'm not re-opening any wounds for anyone.

feel free to unload your troubles im only sorry i didnt discover boards before i had to deal with my sad loss as for the wounds they eventually become scars with time

Inexile

PhotogTom wrote: »

I
. Its very strange, I can (pretty much) think about what needs doing, write about it OK, but I go to pieces whenever I try to verbalize it with my wife and friends.
QUOTE]

I fully understand this. OH and I are weepy eyed this evening and we dont know where we are at.

I know you will know when its time. Enjoy what time you have left and also when its time make sure to plan to do something nice afterwards. Sounds a bit odd I know but I think these are poignant moments and shoulld be marked. I also think it helps the emotions get straight again. Good luck and again apologies for crashing in on your thread.

carleigh

OP, my late dog also had liver cancer, so I understand the tough time you are going through. Jake was diagnosed in November 2010, and we found a restricted diet and meds helped, (the only meat we gave was chicken and fish) and he lived until March 2012. He was on antibiotics and steroids for most of this time, and had good days and bad, but thankfully, alot more good days. He was also diganosed with collitis during this time, so we found it very important to stick with his diet. Mainly rice with chicken/fish, and scrambled egg. He was in great form of the time and still went for his daily walk to the woods. It was only in January 2012 that he went a bit downhill. The vet gave him an anabolic steroid injection to perk him up and this gave him a new lease of life, and he got a second injection 4 weeks later. However, in the lead up to St Patricks Day last year he was not himself and we ended up with the vet on Paddys day, he gave him some antibiotic jabs, and told us if he didnt make a big turnaround in the next 48 hours we would have some thinking to do. Jake was very lethargic at this point and not very interested in leaving his bed, so we knew the time was near, and on March 19th we made the tough decision to let him go. Its true what everyone says, you will just know. We looked into his eyes and he was tired from fighting. The vet always reassured us he was not in pain, but we couldnt let him fight any longer and wanted him to be at peace. I'm not going to lie, it was heartbreaking saying goodbye to him, the vet came to our house, but we know we did all we could for him over those long months and he fought til the very end. He was 13 and we couldnt have asked for a better pal. Alot of people said we should have got him pts when we found out he was sick, but he was a member of the family, and thankfully we could afford to pay for medication and frequent trips to the vet. My advice to you would be to have a chat with your vet, s/he will guide you with your decision. Liver cancer doesnt have to be an immediate death sentence. I'm thinking of you and Kelly, hopefully you have plenty more time together to make some more happy memories.

cena

I really feel sorry for you. Have a ten yr lab myself.

aonb

I can understand why its easier to write and think about the whole thing but so hard to verbalise/discuss with your wife/friends - the emotions are too close to the surface. Its so hard not to break down when talking about the situation - but dont be afraid to do just that either - its so hard and sad, and such a huge responsibility to have to decide when to put your beloved pet, who is part of your family and your life, to sleep.

I think it would be a good idea to let your wife read this post, so that she can see what you are going through, and help her to understand how difficult it is for you.

Do you have confidence in your vet? would it be worthwhile to see another vet, to be sure that you are getting Kelly all the help that is available/possible?

doubter

A very sad post. What I can tell you (from my own sad experiences) is that you will KNOW when the time is right-and if you are still doubting, the time is not right. Trust me- you will know as she will tell you.

If it should be that I grow weak
And pain should keep me from my sleep,
Then you must do what must be done,
For this last battle cannot be won.

You will be sad, I understand.
Don't let your grief then stay your hand.
For this day, more than all the rest,
Your love for me must stand the test.

We've had so many happy years.
What is to come can hold no fears.
You'd not want me to suffer so;
The time has come -- please let me go.

Take me where my need they'll tend,
And please stay with me till the end.
Hold me firm and speak to me,
Until my eyes no longer see.

I know in time that you will see
The kindness that you did for me.
Although my tail its last has waved,
From pain and suffering I've been saved.

Please do not grieve -- it must be you
Who had this painful thing to do.
We've been so close, we two, these years;
Don't let your heart hold back its tears.

jimf

doubter wrote: »

A very sad post. What I can tell you (from my own sad experiences) is that you will KNOW when the time is right-and if you are still doubting, the time is not right. Trust me- you will know as she will tell you.

If it should be that I grow weak
And pain should keep me from my sleep,
Then you must do what must be done,
For this last battle cannot be won.

You will be sad, I understand.
Don't let your grief then stay your hand.
For this day, more than all the rest,
Your love for me must stand the test.

We've had so many happy years.
What is to come can hold no fears.
You'd not want me to suffer so;
The time has come -- please let me go.

Take me where my need they'll tend,
And please stay with me till the end.
Hold me firm and speak to me,
Until my eyes no longer see.

I know in time that you will see
The kindness that you did for me.
Although my tail its last has waved,
From pain and suffering I've been saved.

Please do not grieve -- it must be you
Who had this painful thing to do.
We've been so close, we two, these years;
Don't let your heart hold back its tears.

how sad but how beautiful you have just about said in all in than verse

miss_daisy

What a sad sad post OP. I've sad here with tears rolling down my face reading every reply. I had the very same issue with my Scottie last August and to be honest, I'm still very much not over it. Annie was diagnosed in July and I tortured myself in the decision making process for the next 6-7 weeks. It's was truly awful- cried hysterically more times than I even care to think of- tears of guilt, that if I let her go today- would I be giving up on her, was it too soon, would she somehow come right, was there anyone anywhere that could help her live a quality life for longer... Somedays she was miserable and wetting herself, she'd look at you like her soul had been lost ... And then the next day, shed be running around with the other dogs like a puppy again! Made the decision so hard for me... But as the other posters have said- if your doubting yourself, neither of you are ready and she will let you know when it's time to go. That final day I came home from work, I just saw it in her eyes and I knew, for sure the time had come. It has been the toughest decision of my life so far, so I feel your pain.

I wish you luck and cherish the time you've got left together.