The dole

creedp

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You can never work in this country and still have a high standard of living. You will be provided with housing, medical and extra finance for unforceseen expences. This included First Communion expense money until now. When you get old you will recieve an OAP and nursing hone cover and as you may own nothing the state will pick up all your expenses.

If you work and provide you own accomodation and medical care etc and pay taxes. When you get old the state will expect you to spend your resources to provide nursing home care and will themn take 1/3 the value of your house in the case of a couple.

The Trioka even wanted that the OAP be reduced a nd have a means tested Top-up. This would have allowed those that have no intrest in work to continue there lifestyle but that those that try to provide for themselves be punished. The same with CA provisions. I ask who is winning and who is losing.

In fairness Farmer I disagree with a lot you say so when I agree with you I'm going to acknowledge it!!

woodoo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You can never work in this country and still have a high standard of living. You will be provided with housing, medical and extra finance for unforceseen expences. This included First Communion expense money until now. When you get old you will recieve an OAP and nursing hone cover and as you may own nothing the state will pick up all your expenses.

This country is a welfare state dreamland. People can have a good standard of living from cradle to grave. Its a stable existence too. They will never be desperately poor or rich. They don't have to worry about mortgages, debt and potential job losses. Its comfort all the way.

Pretty much every part of it is ripe for cuts, including the OAPs. I hear that Joan Burton is refusing to cut the 550 million from her department next year too.

Steviemoyne

A lot of jobs out there pay less than the dole does in a week but people seem unaware that you can work and sign on to supplement your income to a reasonable amount while still earning a living.

I call it the X's and O's and I joke with my own Mother asking her "Who won this week?". Little yellow cards with days of the weeks and slots for putting in hours which you simply send back in to them and they sort out how much you should earn.

Just because a job doesn't pay as much people should still take it for the above reason plus the chance to up-skill and possibly climb higher in the chosen profession and earn enough where you don't require state aid.

Luckily enough they seem to be clamping down on it somewhat by sending out letters to long time job seekers asking them to state they are searching for work and asking them to prove their claim with a nice little "if you don't reply within 14 days it will effect your allowance" line in there too. Edit: Which said people who have no interest actively seeking work will probably lie.

Glad I'm out of the system and in college at this stage. It does tend to trap people somewhat.

KELTICKNIGHTT

while people are on the dole , why not let them get employment in these bridge schemes and internships
i know people who are on the dole , are told they can't apply for one reason or another, why not let the people on the dole so these schemes , too many rules
let them give back to system

Calgary22

i am on the dole. I am a redundant apprentice i begged sw/fas could i go on jobs-bridge to finish my time and get the hell out of this debt ridden country. of course they refused they then taught they were doing me favour by offering me a computer course which (1) has got nothing to do with my trade and (2) i have no interest in. its a ****ing disgrace what they are doing to us redundant apprentices. so i have no shame what so ever of being on the dole.

SCOOP 64

Problem with internships most end up back on the dole in 9 months and the employer after a certain amoumt of time will take on another, most of these internships can be full time jobs at mininum wage, but still a full time job for someone, but employer would rather pay €50 aweek.

skafish

creedp wrote: »

In fairness Farmer I disagree with a lot you say so when I agree with you I'm going to acknowledge it!!

Ditto

Farmer Pudsey

creedp wrote: »

In fairness Farmer I disagree with a lot you say so when I agree with you I'm going to acknowledge it!!

skafish wrote: »

Ditto

Thanks lads.

bhamsteve

I'd have to say that lifestyle dole claimants are a very small minority in Ireland at the moment.
To everybody suggesting that the employed should have to work for their dole, what do you think the CE schemes, interships, jobs-bridges etc are. They are nearly as hard to find as a paid job.
I did a FAS healthcare course last year and there were far too few places for the number of applications. That's people willing to spend 9 months wiping old dear's arses, on the same money as the dole, for the slim chance of getting a minimum wage job at the end of it.
And as for 25 jobs that can't be filled, I'm calling bull**** on that one.

skafish

Calgary22 wrote: »

i am on the dole. I am a redundant apprentice i begged sw/fas could i go on jobs-bridge to finish my time and get the hell out of this debt ridden country. of course they refused they then taught they were doing me favour by offering me a computer course which (1) has got nothing to do with my trade and (2) i have no interest in. its a ****ing disgrace what they are doing to us redundant apprentices. so i have no shame what so ever of being on the dole.

So the rest of us should pay for you to sit on your arse because you are too precious to support yourself in any job? and then have the neck to say you only want to finish your apprenticeship, at an enormous cost to the rest of us so you can take the skills we have paid for you to learn and use them elsewhere without giving anything back?

This kind of attitude makes me sick.

If you are that desperate, and have so little pride (or confidence) in youself, I'll happily contribute to your airfare to somewhere more deserving of your "talents".... North Korea, perhaps, and good fcuking riddance

Calgary22

well no i have payed tax's for many years so its my own money really. sure why should i do anything else fas have an obligation to me to finish my apprenticeship.

The same could be said for any course a lot of new college students that get a 6 grand grant a year a lot of them finish college and emigrate and they have given nothing back i payed tax's over my apprenticeship so its really my own money i am claiming back now.

Chemical Burn

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I think a structured decrease in the dole the longer you are on it is the answer.

A reduction every 6 months or so, would pressure long term claimants to find work.

Yes, but some people just can't get work. It should be based on the Swedish system.

There are "Dole" officers up there. Every so often the dole recipient is offered a job / job interview, if he / she refuses ONCE, dole i cut full stop. The dole recipient is also required and obliged to send out CVs and applications (and keep proof that he / she is doing this), if this is not adhered to, the payouts will decrease. You can only earn a certain amount on the house. After that you start racking up a bill, which you will have to pay when you start earning / sell your house / make an inheritance.

bhamsteve

skafish wrote: »

So the rest of us should pay for you to sit on your arse because you are too precious to support yourself in any job? and then have the neck to say you only want to finish your apprenticeship, at an enormous cost to the rest of us so you can take the skills we have paid for you to learn and use them elsewhere without giving anything back?

This kind of attitude makes me sick.

If you are that desperate, and have so little pride (or confidence) in youself, I'll happily contribute to your airfare to somewhere more deserving of your "talents".... North Korea, perhaps, and good fcuking riddance

The guy is obviously trying to get off the dole, but doesn't see the benefit of a computer course. If he's invested years of his life doing an apprenticeship he has every right to try and finish it.

Scortho

Calgary22 wrote: »

i am on the dole. I am a redundant apprentice i begged sw/fas could i go on jobs-bridge to finish my time and get the hell out of this debt ridden country. of course they refused they then taught they were doing me favour by offering me a computer course which (1) has got nothing to do with my trade and (2) i have no interest in. its a ****ing disgrace what they are doing to us redundant apprentices. so i have no shame what so ever of being on the dole.

Would you take an unpaid apprenticeship. Most companies at the moment can't afford to take on apprentices at apprentice rates (3rd and 4th year electrician apprenticeships were fairly high the last time I checked!) but I'm sure if you were to offer yourself to a local co to do your on the job phases done they'd jump at it!
They have reduced costs and you get your cert allowing you to move as a qualified tradesman. Win win for both.

Or there's also the redundant apprentice scheme:http://www.fas.ie/en/Training/Apprenticeships/Assistance+for+Redundant+Apprentices.htm

See point 5.

SCOOP 64

Still think ,the ones with jobs are the lucky ones ,no matter what!

Calgary22

Thanks mate i am currently on that waiting list. that course is a joke as well as it stands now there is 1000 redundant apprentices waiting to do that test. it is ran in 2 Fas centers its ran 4 times a year in one and 3 times a year in the other and there's only 8 on each test so that's only 56 going through it a year so the way its going depending where i am on the list could take up to 17 years. and fas wont even tell me where i am on the list so that is why i don't want to commit to a computer course if i new where i was on the list i would emigrate and come back when i get called to do it. I am ashamed to be on the dole do you guys think its fun when relations and friends ask you what your doing and ya have to tell your unemployed. why should i have to look at my mates with there 6 grand grants get there degree's and i have to ask myself why cant i get a break like them. its not fun i give 60-80 euro a week to my parent for accommodation. i haven't been out since Christmas and i don't get any other allowance such a fuel or whatever ones are going so i think i am entitled to my 188 a week,

I no the rates were high but tbh i never got payed them. for my first year i got 240 2nd year i got 300 3rd year i got 280 and 4th year i got 320. i have spent so many years on this why should i give it up now. why cant i get my cert and be able to show other people that i have done something positive with my life.

Rightwing

I see many areas of the public sector as a far bigger drain of resources than the welfare. Shows what a messed up situation we're in.

tim3000

I am out of college 2 years I am trying to find work but not having much work but I am now up against 2 years of graduates with more modern degrees than me. The op said there are jobs out there and he his right, however I did not spend 4 years
in college studying and getting the grades to just end up working in a McDonalds with a bunch of 16 year olds. Secondly people have to pay taxes, it is just how the system works. It is not like a guy claiming the dole is reaching into your pocket and taking the money you worked for.

BuilderPlumber

I think there are 2 types of people on the "dole": the first type are people who have gone to college, have got jobs and then the company they work for closed or left them go. These DESERVE the dole and full payment and also for the social welfare office to prioritise jobs for these people.

The second type is the dole merchant, who gets by on drawing the dole and trucking in goods (sometimes stolen) and who will do anything but work or better themselves. These people do not deserve our support and are a burden on the state at best and colluding with criminals at worst.

With regard to the public sector, I think there is a myth that it is ALL permanent and pensionable and wellpaid. Actually, the opposite is true: the vast majority are low paid, contractual employees. Ordinary teachers, lecturers, admin workers and junior doctors are among the poorest paid people in Ireland (the myth is just because you ARE one of these professions, it is automatically assumed you have it made when you could only be earning 200 or less per week and get no pay for the summer (teachers) or only be on call for 6 months (certain office admin roles).

The top public servants and TDs are a different story though. Politicians are like career dole drawers only on a grander scale and heads of depts and the like are not much better. And Ryan Tubridy has the easiest job of all - he gets to meet all the celebs and get 100s of 1000s for this and only for about 10 hours max per week.

Conclusion is the wrong people get well paid in Ireland. Period.

BuilderPlumber

Rightwing wrote: »

I see many areas of the public sector as a far bigger drain of resources than the welfare. Shows what a messed up situation we're in.

Yes, the TOP civil servants are. The rest are poor like the private sector. Vested interests want the public and private to hate each other. The reality is the top civil "servants" earn fortunes, do nothing, are in the job because of who they know and not because of talent, and are the enemy of everyone else, be they private or public sector employees.

Melion

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

I think there are 2 types of people on the "dole": the first type are people who have gone to college, have got jobs and then the company they work for closed or left them go. These DESERVE the dole and full payment and also for the social welfare office to prioritise jobs for these people.

The second type is the dole merchant, who gets by on drawing the dole and trucking in goods (sometimes stolen) and who will do anything but work or better themselves. These people do not deserve our support and are a burden on the state at best and colluding with criminals at worst.

I fit into neither of those categories im afraid. I didnt go to college, i worked from the time i finished my leaving cert (2001) until late last year. I am not involved in any kind of illegal activites. Sorry to ruin that for you.

Cody Pomeray

Anyone know of reliable, up to date statistics for the median salaries in Departments across the civil service?

_Kaiser_

con1421 wrote: »

Hi guys,
I think that is an absolute disgrace that people can stay on the dole for so long. I understand that certain people can't work (disabilities, injuries, young kids etc....) and I understand that people sign on (for a few weeks up until they find a new job) which I find acceptable. But certain lazy people ( in great health) clearly don't want to work.

I know one guy in particular that has not worked for 4 years. He got a job at the local shop after school (never went to college) and then left the job after a few months and never went back to work. Anytime I see him he is waiting in the post office for his dole (my tax money). I was in town one day with him and we walked past Argos who were hiring staff. I told him to send an application in and he said that he would never work there. Last Christmas (during our busy spell) I offered him a job in my bar and his response was "if I get a job I won't be able to get my dole". Other people have tried to motivate this guy to at least go to college but he WON'T DO ANYTHING with his life. It upsets me because I have to work 4 or 5 late night every week and I barely make enough money to keep myself going. But people can get FREE MONEY every single week for doing nothing.

Luckily for me I have worked continuously for 8 years now (in Ireland and the US) since I was 16 and I have never been on the dole. Even when I was in college I never got a grant or any state benifit. If I was to go on the dole when I was younger my parents would just not accept the fact that I would be hanging around the house everyday with nothing to do and thy would insist that I'd do something beneficial with my life.

It's as if people just don't want to work and get the skills that become so important in later life. I mean come on what interviewer is going to take someone seriously if they have a limited CV?It's as if this generation of people don't want to work and as a result become lazy and too dependent on state benefits.

Guys I know that there is a recession on but THERE ARE JOBS OUT THERE if you look. Even sweeping the streets for a living is hugely beneficial. Would you prefer to say you sweep the streets or say that You are on the dole?

I have a big problem with certain people and I just can't accept the fact that this country has become so backwards. I mean if people don't want to work why not go to college? This country is one of the cheapest in the world for education. In the US alone an average course would cost in the thousands of euro and these students end up paying these fees well into their adult life. In Ireland an average degree would cost you 2000ish euro a year.

I just don't like people wasting their life away when there are skills, jobs available. What influence is that going to be on the kids if they see parents never working?

What do you guys think?

What do I think? Frankly, you haven't a clue what you're talking about. That's what I think.

Your entire rant seems to be based on one guy you know who (to be fair to you) does indeed seem to be the type who doesn't WANT to work - but to tar everyone on the dole with the same brush is frankly ridiculous and smacks of someone who has never been there themselves (as you've admitted further on)

Here's some reality for you. I was working from 1997 till 2009 when, thanks to an inability to renew my contract, I was made redundant - I work in IT

Despite my sending CVs every day to anything and everything I thought I might be suited for, I did well to even get a reply never mind an interview.
Anytime I did get a response it usually ended up as me being "too qualified" for the job (I'm at managerial level) or wanting a very specific subset of skills.

Sure it gave me time to teach myself a few tools and products I'd never really had a chance to get into when I was too busy doing day-to-day stuff, but I'm not one for sitting around on my ass doing nothing (and prefer to learn by doing) so this grew tiresome and frustrating pretty quickly. But seeing as FAS (or whatever they're calling themselves this week) were only offering me an ECDL course and I didn't have the €8k needed for something more appropriate, at least it was better than nothing.
However, luckily for me I finally got something a year later that wasn't ideal - was a significant step back and involved an 1000 km per week commute for an uncertain future contract role - but I did it, not just because I needed the money (more on this in a moment) but because I needed to work.

Speaking of money... I am sick to my back teeth of these keyboard economists on this forum who seem to think that being on the Dole is a great life. When I was made redundant my bills, debts and responsibilities didn't disappear with my job and salary - nor was just telling my creditors "ah shure I'll give you the money whenever I get another job" an option. Instead life became a constant and stressful struggle of giving them all just enough each month to keep them off your back for another few weeks.

Maybe the Dole is "easy money" if you're living at home, late teens/early 20s, with no kids, debts or responsibility .. but I'd wager that that's the minority of our current "long term unemployed". (Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem fairly young yourself so maybe that's where this viewpoint is coming from?)

So, even though I'm now back on track and back at the level I was at in 2009, I wouldn't have the neck to be looking down my nose at those less fortunate who are still struggling to put food on the table and look after their bills AND still stay motivated enough to find a job in an environment where there aren't many out there

Cody Pomeray

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Despite my sending CVs every day to anything and everything I thought I might be suited for

To be fair I'm not sure that is how most people approach jobseeking.

Yes, there is money to be made by anyone with a college or University parchment coming off the Dole and working in Tescos. But I'm not convinced the salary differential is quite enough to coax them into applying to Tesco.

Over the past few years, the 3rd level educational system opened up to the majority of school-going studentsm who took up courses in the institutions.

That was great. I'm the biggest fan of 3rd level I know.

But it gave people expectations that are not available to be met after all. People thought, and think (I include myself in this general sentiment) why with my knowledge of XXXXXX (say, medieval Irish language), never in all the days of my life shall I have to work in a Lidl !

I realise there are more unemployed and underemployed people than there are vacancies.

The unemployment situation is not a product of laziness.

We need to ensure it does not become such a problem. People whose educational qualifications are no longer utilizable, and are unlikely to be, must be forced to re-train.

People who cannot show they are actively seeking all types of possible employment must be sanctioned.

This is an economic emergency. There are valid reasons why people do not have jobs. But we have to stop the emergency from leaving bad artifacts in the labour market. That has to start right now with labour activation measures, and these include running down dole payments over time.

Rightwing

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Yes, the TOP civil servants are. The rest are poor like the private sector. Vested interests want the public and private to hate each other. The reality is the top civil "servants" earn fortunes, do nothing, are in the job because of who they know and not because of talent, and are the enemy of everyone else, be they private or public sector employees.

I disagree. For instance, we have primary principals who don't even teach on about €80K a year. That's just waste of the highest order.

We have people in quangos on even more, all they do is fill out expense forms.

zeds alive

Been on the dole 9 weeks now , trying to make ends meet on €188+53 RA is possibly the most stressful thing I have ever had to do , once food is bought , bills are paid , cash for coal/wood and rent is set aside , I'm left with a grand total of €18.85.
Went down to the dole office to try sort out Job Bridge , was told I have to be unemployed for 7 months to qualify, went about maybe getting back to education to see if I can do a college course , was told have to on the dole 9 months to qualify , went too FAS to see about courses and the crap they have on offer is a joke , EDL & tile grouting for ****s sake.

It's all well and good saying go out and get work , but that's easier said than done , applied for any kind of job that was offered in this weeks paper , sent a CV to Costa coffee , was told by the manager that nearly 130 people applied for 1 position.

Depressing scene out there.

As someone mentioned above there is dole pros out there , I know of at least 3 or 4 guys who have been on the dole 15+ years , and you could cut it from €188 to €88 and they would still be on the dole , they are survivors , no amount of cuts will get them working.
What I want to know is how they can do it? I was signing on 2 week and was already getting letters about looking for work , how do they manage to avoid this kind of stuff for years...

BGozIE

zeds alive wrote: »

Been on the dole 9 weeks now , trying to make ends meet on €188+53 RA is possibly the most stressful thing I have ever had to do , once food is bought , bills are paid , cash for coal/wood and rent is set aside , I'm left with a grand total of €18.85.
Went down to the dole office to try sort out Job Bridge , was told I have to be unemployed for 7 months to qualify, went about maybe getting back to education to see if I can do a college course , was told have to on the dole 9 months to qualify , went too FAS to see about courses and the crap they have on offer is a joke , EDL & tile grouting for ****s sake.

It's all well and good saying go out and get work , but that's easier said than done , applied for any kind of job that was offered in this weeks paper , sent a CV to Costa coffee , was told by the manager that nearly 130 people applied for 1 position.

Depressing scene out there.

Jaysus, that's rough...keep trying none the less...

Shows the ridiculousness of the system, thats why I have sympathy for SOME people on the dole and I guess thats why you cant tar everyone with the same brush, generally nothing is black and white.

Undoubtedly there are a lot of people screwing the system though, and it is those people that stick in the memory and invoke the feelings of negativity expressed in this thread

Cody Pomeray

zeds alive wrote: »

As someone mentioned above there is dole pros out there , I know of at least 3 or 4 guys who have been on the dole 15+ years , and you could cut it from €188 to €88 and they would still be on the dole , they are survivors , no amount of cuts will get them working.
What I want to know is how they can do it? I was signing on 2 week and was already getting letters about looking for work , how do they manage to avoid this kind of stuff for years...

If you're a civil servant and you want to bring down your claimants' list to show that you're doing your job, you're not going to be stupid. You're going to pick your fights.

I think most people notice what you've described. I would hazard a guess that the Dole office are aware that certain people place more value on idleness (or are more workshy to put it another way) than others. They're a lot of trouble and energy to chase down and pin to a job successfully.

Therefore it makes sense to target the responsive cohort more than the non-responsive, which defeats the purpose, but does assuage the numbers.

Icepick

Melion wrote: »

I am on every job site in Ireland 2-3 times a day, EVERY DAY.

Im sure if i lived in Dublin, Cork or Galway i would have a job in no time. Limerick is the closest city to me and it is next to impossible to find a job.

You obviously need to move then. Jobs will not come to you.

Melion

Icepick wrote: »

You obviously need to move then. Jobs will not come to you.

I have a child who I barely see as it is, moving is not an option.

Icepick

Melion wrote: »

I have a child who I barely see as it is, moving is not an option.

Why should the taxpayer fund these kind of lifestyle choices?
There are people who don't see their children often because they are working hundreds of kms away or abroad so that you can see yours.

Cody Pomeray

Icepick wrote: »

Why should the taxpayer fund these kind of lifestyle choices?
There are people who don't see their children often because they are working hundreds of kms away or abroad so that you can see yours.

Ah come off it will you. Man on the Dole and posters like you think you have a right to dictate whether he sees his children.

I know this in an internet forum and attracts exaggerated (supposed) opinions, but he's a jobseeker Dad, not a hard-right taxpayer's internet plaything.

KyussBishop

Icepick wrote: »

Why should the taxpayer fund these kind of lifestyle choices?
There are people who don't see their children often because they are working hundreds of kms away or abroad so that you can see yours.

What do people not understand about 26 unemployed people per job vacancy? Yet you still get people moralizing and trying to dictate what others should do, out of total ignorance of their situation and apparently of the general jobs situation.

I mean really, what kind of tabloidy, emotionally dead and ignorant thinking, butting in where you have zero justification, makes a person lambast another for wanting to be able to see their kid and play a part in their life? (wanting to see your kid, is apparently a profligate 'lifestyle choice' now; that's one of the most cold bits of dole recipient moralizing I've seen on boards)

This person has obviously put in a lot of taxes over the years and has more than earned the right to social support while looking for a job (which they've put a lot of effort into), without having to cut ties with i.e. to neglect their kid to do it (who they already barely see), and without ignorant people butting their nose in where it doesn't belong, who seem to think dole recipients are a class of people beneath them, who they are free to dictate and moralize to.

Melion

Icepick wrote: »

Why should the taxpayer fund these kind of lifestyle choices?
There are people who don't see their children often because they are working hundreds of kms away or abroad so that you can see yours.

A lifestyle choice? Living on €20 a week isn't really a lifestyle I would recommend to anyone. If those people you speak of choose to leave their children then fair play to them, I love my daughter a bit too much for that. I was offered a job in Australia and said no, I was offered a job in the Czech Republic and said no. The simple reason??? I have a 3yr old child who I do not want to be apart from. If that means surviving on the basic dole then so be it, I paid enough taxes over the last 11 years to justify that.

intellectual dosser

Calgary22 wrote: »

Thanks mate i am currently on that waiting list. that course is a joke as well as it stands now there is 1000 redundant apprentices waiting to do that test. it is ran in 2 Fas centers its ran 4 times a year in one and 3 times a year in the other and there's only 8 on each test so that's only 56 going through it a year so the way its going depending where i am on the list could take up to 17 years. and fas wont even tell me where i am on the list so that is why i don't want to commit to a computer course if i new where i was on the list i would emigrate and come back when i get called to do it. I am ashamed to be on the dole do you guys think its fun when relations and friends ask you what your doing and ya have to tell your unemployed. why should i have to look at my mates with there 6 grand grants get there degree's and i have to ask myself why cant i get a break like them. its not fun i give 60-80 euro a week to my parent for accommodation. i haven't been out since Christmas and i don't get any other allowance such a fuel or whatever ones are going so i think i am entitled to my 188 a week,

I no the rates were high but tbh i never got payed them. for my first year i got 240 2nd year i got 300 3rd year i got 280 and 4th year i got 320. i have spent so many years on this why should i give it up now. why cant i get my cert and be able to show other people that i have done something positive with my life.

You have openly admitted that you expect the Irish Government to finish your education so that you can .....(in bold)

Calgary22 wrote: »

cut
Of course its going to be better if i am qualified as i leave this **** hole of a country with my papers and start my new life anywhere i want. if i leave with my papers i will get 36-40 dollars and hour. if i leave with out them i will get 20 so of course having my papers makes a big difference.
cut
.

You basically want FAS to give you an education so you can go to another country and apply it there. You'll understand why I don't feel sorry for you.

For me it sounds like you have two choices:
a) Leave now and accept the $20 an hour instead of $40 you'll get abroad.
b) Adapt, as many people are doing and be open to learning a skill in a different sector, one that has higher employment. (IT comes to mind, why do you think FAS are pushing this computer course?)


My two cents on the overall issue. Both Social Welfare payments and minimum wage need to be lowered if we want to create jobs and encourage people to get moving. There are plenty of genuine SW cases out there - but we need to address the mass of the problem - I don't think we can perfectly accommodate EVERYONE in the situation we're in.

BGozIE

intellectual dosser wrote: »

My two cents on the overall issue. Both Social Welfare payments and minimum wage need to be lowered if we want to create jobs and encourage people to get moving. There are plenty of genuine SW cases out there - but we need to address the mass of the problem - I don't think we can perfectly accommodate EVERYONE in the situation we're in.

I disagree on lowering the minimum wage. Lowering the minimum wage only increases the cases of 'poverty trap' making it even more appealing to stay on SW, as far as I see it. They tried lowering the minimum wage not so long ago and it lasted what, 2 months?

What benefit do you feel lowering the minimum wage will have?

intellectual dosser

BGozIE wrote: »

I disagree on lowering the minimum wage. Lowering the minimum wage only increases the cases of 'poverty trap' making it even more appealing to stay on SW, as far as I see it. They tried lowering the minimum wage not so long ago and it lasted what, 2 months?

What benefit do you feel lowering the minimum wage will have?

Simply just to lower the cost of employment and create more jobs.

The primary offset is that people will see the dole as the better option, similar money for doing nothing, which is why it must be lowered too. That would probably need to be complimented with other actions though - some decent suggestions on this thread.

mariaalice

The whole think is an illusion, unemployment is the bi product of the sort of economy/society we have live in, unemployment will go up and go down but it will never disappeared, there are alway going to be people who never work it is a very complex problem and it very little to do with the individual being lazy.

KysussBishop is going to come on and tell us, it dose not need to be like that, we could have a society where every one has a job.:)

There are all sorts of unemployment, for example I was reading a piece about men on the margins of society in Liverpool the piece looked at the life style and what they found was that they lived day to day, they often lived a life working now and then as casual labours/roofers/cockle pickers when they could along with selling weed and social welfare but thy never made the transition to a full time working because they could not in the sort of society they live in.

I pay a huge amount of tax, but I am realistic about that and I benefit a lot from the services of society I live in.

zeds alive

intellectual dosser wrote: »

(IT comes to mind, why do you think FAS are pushing this computer course?)

I wouldn't be using FAS as the stick to beat people with , FAS are basically another useless quango. They currently cost the taxpayer 1bn a year to keep open , to give people certs that in most cases aren't worth the paper they are printed on , that 1bn would be better invested in the colleges and universities(which are under funded) and give people a chance at a 3rd level education which will immeasurably increase their employment prospects.

And anyway most forums always have the occasional keyboard warrior like you that have a rosey picture of being unemployed.
If your own personal employment situation is so bad where you think people on €188 are better off than you , I suggest quitting your job and giving it a go , at least then you you can have an opinion based on experience rather than optics.

_Kaiser_

KyussBishop wrote: »

What do people not understand about 26 unemployed people per job vacancy? Yet you still get people moralizing and trying to dictate what others should do, out of total ignorance of their situation and apparently of the general jobs situation.

I mean really, what kind of tabloidy, emotionally dead and ignorant thinking, butting in where you have zero justification, makes a person lambast another for wanting to be able to see their kid and play a part in their life? (wanting to see your kid, is apparently a profligate 'lifestyle choice' now; that's one of the most cold bits of dole recipient moralizing I've seen on boards)

This person has obviously put in a lot of taxes over the years and has more than earned the right to social support while looking for a job (which they've put a lot of effort into), without having to cut ties with i.e. to neglect their kid to do it (who they already barely see), and without ignorant people butting their nose in where it doesn't belong, who seem to think dole recipients are a class of people beneath them, who they are free to dictate and moralize to.

I wish I could add more than 1 thanks to the above post. This forum disgusts me whenever this topic comes up.

It's like a magnet for all the keyboard warriors/wannabe economists who think that because they're lucky enough to be working (for now/at the moment) and paying taxes it gives them the right to dictate how those less fortunate should be allowed live their lives or spend "their" (the worker's) money.

I work, I pay my taxes and do things the right way and get very little in return (being a healthy, single PAYE worker living in private rented accommodation), but not for a second would I have the neck to think that this allows me to tell others how they should live their life, what they can spend their money on and how often they can see their child??!!

It's generally the same crowd too - individuals who I can only assume grew up sheltered by mammy and daddy's money, who've never had to try and manage on the Dole while supporting a family and paying off their bills (which as I keep saying, DON'T just "disappear" along with the person's job and income).

Some of the stuff posted is outright trolling really (like the suggestion above that seeing your child is a "lifestyle choice") and frankly, I'm amazed that on a forum that has such a high opinion of itself and its "standards" that it's allowed.

Melion

Calgary22 wrote: »

Thanks mate but i will stick round here till i finish my time though;) the 188 is great i should be applying for my rent and fuel allowance soon:D sure why would i want to work:D

I don't see why my mates in coll can get the same money as me on a grant and they never worked in there life and as soon as they get there degrees there gone. i payed tax's for years throughout my apprenticeship so i am perfectly entitled to it back now its the least i am owned i am going to have to emigrate in a few months its back enough.

Thanks for the comment though:pac::cool:

Bit stupid to apply for your fuel allowance now since it was stopped today.

Calgary22

well for next year like winters only a few months away:D good to have the application in nice and earlier is it not?:D

intellectual dosser

zeds alive wrote: »

I wouldn't be using FAS as the stick to beat people with , FAS are basically another useless quango. They currently cost the taxpayer 1bn a year to keep open , to give people certs that in most cases aren't worth the paper they are printed on , that 1bn would be better invested in the colleges and universities(which are under funded) and give people a chance at a 3rd level education which will immeasurably increase their employment prospects.

And anyway most forums always have the occasional keyboard warrior like you that have a rosey picture of being unemployed.
If your own personal employment situation is so bad where you think people on €188 are better off than you , I suggest quitting your job and giving it a go , at least then you you can have an opinion based on experience rather than optics.

I was responding to a post / discussion centered around FAS. I don't have much of an opinion on their merits - they seem to work for some but not for others.

Melion

Calgary22 wrote: »

well for next year like winters only a few months away:D good to have the application in nice and earlier is it not?:D

See people like you just give people like myself a bad name. No interest in working, probably live at home with mammy and daddy paying all the bills and mortgage. Off out every weekend to get hammered with "the boys" running between the pub and the bookies.

Calgary22

Melion wrote: »

See people like you just give people like myself a bad name. No interest in working, probably live at home with mammy and daddy paying all the bills and mortgage. Off out every weekend to get hammered with "the boys" running between the pub and the bookies.

Ah yea pal that is me alright

Did ya not read my earlier posts in which i stated how bad i want to work.

I can proudly say i never placed a bet in my life.

Melion

Calgary22 wrote: »

Ah yea pal that is me alright

Did ya not read my earlier posts in which i stated how bad i want to work.

What jobs have you applied for?

Calgary22

Jeezus a ****ing SW officer would only ask that kind of question:D

Melion

Calgary22 wrote: »

Jeezus a ****ing SW officer would only ask that kind of question:D

Exactly, you can't answer. You're a complete joke.

con1421

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

What do I think? Frankly, you haven't a clue what you're talking about. That's what I think.

Your entire rant seems to be based on one guy you know who (to be fair to you) does indeed seem to be the type who doesn't WANT to work - but to tar everyone on the dole with the same brush is frankly ridiculous and smacks of someone who has never been there themselves (as you've admitted further on)

Here's some reality for you. I was working from 1997 till 2009 when, thanks to an inability to renew my contract, I was made redundant - I work in IT

Despite my sending CVs every day to anything and everything I thought I might be suited for, I did well to even get a reply never mind an interview.
Anytime I did get a response it usually ended up as me being "too qualified" for the job (I'm at managerial level) or wanting a very specific subset of skills.

Sure it gave me time to teach myself a few tools and products I'd never really had a chance to get into when I was too busy doing day-to-day stuff, but I'm not one for sitting around on my ass doing nothing (and prefer to learn by doing) so this grew tiresome and frustrating pretty quickly. But seeing as FAS (or whatever they're calling themselves this week) were only offering me an ECDL course and I didn't have the €8k needed for something more appropriate, at least it was better than nothing.
However, luckily for me I finally got something a year later that wasn't ideal - was a significant step back and involved an 1000 km per week commute for an uncertain future contract role - but I did it, not just because I needed the money (more on this in a moment) but because I needed to work.

Speaking of money... I am sick to my back teeth of these keyboard economists on this forum who seem to think that being on the Dole is a great life. When I was made redundant my bills, debts and responsibilities didn't disappear with my job and salary - nor was just telling my creditors "ah shure I'll give you the money whenever I get another job" an option. Instead life became a constant and stressful struggle of giving them all just enough each month to keep them off your back for another few weeks.

Maybe the Dole is "easy money" if you're living at home, late teens/early 20s, with no kids, debts or responsibility .. but I'd wager that that's the minority of our current "long term unemployed". (Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem fairly young yourself so maybe that's where this viewpoint is coming from?)

So, even though I'm now back on track and back at the level I was at in 2009, I wouldn't have the neck to be looking down my nose at those less fortunate who are still struggling to put food on the table and look after their bills AND still stay motivated enough to find a job in an environment where there aren't many out there

Hi,
You clearly haven't read my statement properly. I am not painting everyone on the dole with the same brush. Did you not see my opening sentences? I am clearly speaking about a certain group of people on the dole. I disagree with the behavior or certain people on the dole (NOT EVERYONE) and yes I am mostly talking about one guy that I know but if u want I could name many people that I know who dont want to work. Working (for some) is seen as a contagious virus and they don't want to work. In fairness on 188 a week I probably wouldn't want to work either if I was younger living with parents getting free money week in week out.

I agree with what you have said. People on the dole are from different backgrounds. People stay on it (probably for years) while it motivates others to try and perfect the CV even if that means a 1000 km per week commute and I respect your decision to do so. But you are clearly getting confused with other comments people have made. Someone educated who has worked previously or trying to look for a job does not bother me

Yes I am younger but my age doesn't mean anything. Lets say someone at 40 is reading this I'd be sure that they are agreeing with my every word.

My point to begin this thread was the fact that I couldn't understand certain people never/not having to work and it drives me crazy. For those who have worked and find themselves in an akward situation doesn't bother me. READ MY OPENING SENTENCES
I can't understand why someone would turn down a job (like the guy I mentioned)which would guarantee 300 euro a week. Jobs are so precious these days. What use is a blank CV after 4 years on the dole? It's as if the dole traps some people and that's why we have so many unemployed (under 25) and this generation have never been forced to work.

With regard to your final statement I have every right to look down at certain people (not those who have worked in the past). For those who don't want to work dont deserve respect. They are polluted people that are costing our state Billions. How can I take these people seriously? No jobs and no education will get you nowhere in life but there's groups of people that don't understand. Even a walk down to the local post office on a Thursday is seen as a tough task for some. How are the next generation of children going to get motivated if neither parent has ever worked?

Melion

Calgary22 wrote: »

Thanks.

No problem.
Enjoy telling all the friends and family who will listen how the government screwed you over because fas wouldn't finish your apprenticeship for you.

Now if I was you and had your "skills" I would get out of this country and walk into that €20 p/h job, work up experience so I could move to a higher paying job after a year or 2. Seems like the logical thing to do.