Dublin city centre bus/coach parking/stops

Cool Mo D

I think the argument over which company gets to stop its buses where is missing the point.

There is limited road space in Dublin. Local buses , which means Dublin Bus and local Aircoach primarily, should be prioritised for on-street bus stops on through streets. Dublin bus also seriously needs to get its act together as regards dwell times.

Long distance buses from Bus Eireann and private operators should not be stopping on congested streets. The same goes for tour buses parked up on O'Connell street and Grafton street. Taxi ranks are also particularly bad offenders, like the ridiculous placing of a taxi rank in the middle of a bus lane on Dawson street.

Ideally, long distance buses, and buses terminating in the city centre would have their own bus stations, with roofs, toilets, ticket machines and coffee shops. But at the moment, we need to use the space sensibly.

lucernarian

bk wrote: »

Given that all Bus stations and this site are owned and paid for by the tax payer, then they should be transferred to the NTA at no cost.

Fair enough. SandyfordGuy seemed to suggest that CIÉ should do one thing and then suggested they should do the opposite!

bk wrote:

BTW Even the Aircoach coaches to Cork don't stick around for long, it is usually pull up, start loading and pull off straight after they finished loading. They never park there long like some other operators do.

I doubt this, I've seen these buses wait until e.g. 6pm exactly or 8.30pm exactly. Unless the buses are scheduled to leave a couple of minutes after they arrive, accounting for loading passengers etc, then there's bound to be some dead time when they're waiting for the time of the departure before they can go.

It's not like Aircoach are the only operator there though. I think the Dublin Coach in particular seem to have long dwell times. I don't just blame Aircoach for the situation on Westmoreland Street. Were all the 25-odd DB buses stopping on Westmoreland St. or did this include through services??

devnull

Aircoach Cork services leave on the hour 18 times daily. When they changed the timetable to change set down to Batchelors walk from Cork they changed the departure from Dublin Airport to Cork to xx:30 rather than xx:20 to remove dead time at Westmoreland Street.

The Aircoach City services don't wait at all since they are on a frequency basis rather than set times. Dublin Coach start and terminate at Westmoreland Street.

bk

Aircaoch to the airport don't stick around at all, they are stop pick up and go just like the 16.

The Aircoach Cork bus mostly seems to arrive just exactly on the hour, maybe max 5 minutes before. They start boarding immediately on arrival and and usually leave a minute or two after the hour.

The Aircoach Cork operation all seems very tightly timed and operated, there seems to be little sitting idle. It really is an impressive operation to watch. I've many criticisms of Aircoach, but operationally they are very sharp. One of the best around.

Dublin Coach seems to arrive earlier and sit around longer.

BTW Aircoach seem to always have a guy at the Westmoreland Stops at peak time to assist passengers, direct them to the right coach, help them load bags and board quicker (probably also to keep the taxi drivers away). This helps a lot with boarding time. DublinCoach don't have any such person, which makes things slower.

lucernarian

Although I'm mainly on Westmoreland St. in the evenings, I haven't seen the Aircoach guys around at the bus stop that often. I presume they are there from e.g. 9 to 5.

It's unfortunate that Aircoach don't have a city centre stop where they can park buses and load them until they're ready to depart but that's exactly why I'd like to see the Cork or Belfast services start off from a place like Strand St. The same with the non-Busaras BÉ services from the city centre (like the 100X/101 or perhaps the 109) if applicable.

I get the impression that Dublin Coach stopping there now has drawn my attention to the problem more than previously but that better coordination of stops for Dublin Bus would help. Also, the tours ticket buses are not to be seen there in the evening rush hour. Perhaps a better use of stops along with moving the intercity services would go a long way to making the steet safer.

Richard Logue

bk wrote: »

I've many criticisms of Aircoach, but operationally they are very sharp. One of the best around.

You have many criticisms of Aircoach?

bk

Richard Logue wrote: »

You have many criticisms of Aircoach?

Of course, I have often given constructive criticisms of all the public transport services I've used.

For Aircoach it is:

- Most intercity coaches aren't toilet equipped.
- No tray table and mesh at the back of the seats on the Jonckheeres (the normal coach used on the Cork route).
- Dreadful website that badly needs updating and has lot of incorrect and inaccurate information on it.
- Can only book a ticket online before 5pm the prior day, no same day bookings.
- Not much marketing of new services.
- Stop location in Cork is a bit too exposed to the elements, being next to the river.

What they do well is:

- Very comfortable, smooth and quiet coaches (if not the newest, really it is just a pity the Joncks don't have toilets).
- Operationally they are very sharp and efficient.
- Very cheap ticket prices
- Excellent schedule that is very frequent and runs all night.
- A very innovative operator who doesn't seem to be scared to try new things.

I'll give you similar pros and cons of any other bus or train operator I've used.

AlekSmart

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

So just to go over the facts.

1) CIE Employee on this thead recommends that private coach services are relocated from Westmoreland Street since it is too busy.
2) They recommend a new site which is run-down and in need of redevelopment
3) That site also happens to be owned by CIE.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if the site is so good, and CIE own it, why do they not run their own services down there, if they are concerned about overcrowding? They could park out of service buses there and City Tour buses there instead of Westmoreland Street no?

Of course!
1) It allows them to remove their competitors from the most high profile city stops
2) It also allows them to keep an eye on their competitors since they will now be using CIE Land.
3) It allows them to gain money from charging their competition to use bus stop facilities, to prop their own services up with extra income.

It's a shame that once again the people who are CIE staff who originally proposed this site, and the usual people who back up everything CIE does, would propose it, when such situation may help the company they love.

How much other infrastructure do CIE own around the city that they are not using? If there are lots of roads like this then one has to say, why don't they sell the land, if they are not losing them, seeing as they claim finances are so desperate, or alternatively make some use of it if the city center is so crowded?

It's like an operator bidding for airport space to park coaches and buses in Dublin Airport, then going and parking them in the coach park to take up space, then complaining when the coach park is overcrowded.

I'm assuming that I'm the CIE Employee that Sandyford Guy reserves such vitriol for,so I'd better clarify my reasoning.

Firstly I'm actually a Dublin Bus employee,rather than one of the 200 or so directly employed by CIE the holding company...however thats only a nit-pick

My interest in the Westmoreland Street situation has Zippo/Nothing/Nada to do with ANY individual operator,but stems from my Busdrivers perspective,which I would imagine would be shared by many of the respective Coach Companies DRIVERS also.

The Strand Street site is not a NEW-Site as it was utilized for some years as a layover Bus Park and thus has already proven its ability to cater for multiple vehicle movements.

The main reason why BAC ceased using Strand Street was the removal of so many City Centre termini,with Network Direct changes making it's use no longer necessary.

CIE may not currently OWN the Strand Street site as I recall an announcement regarding the proposed new Hotel Development with a Bus Interchange at ground-level being incorporated as part of the property deal....I'm not au-fait as to whether the actual site-disposal did indeed occur.

However,in the context of my (modest) proposal,the CIE ownership need not be of any importance.

I have already pointed to the significant and long-term upheaval which will shortly be occuring in and around Westmoreland St with the Luas BXD works,and I merely pose the question as to what plans currently exist for the current services we discuss here.

I would reiterate,the total lack of comonsense and safety consciousness in attempting to have Stage-Carriage and Inter-Urban services sharing the same Stop..it is wrong,dangerous,unsafe and illogical from a Bus or Coach Drivers perspective,although I do concede it may make perfect sense to a Professional City Administrator...;)

As I operate daily in the Westmoreland Street area,and I interact with other Drivers from ALL of the companies,I can state that every operator is compromised by the current arrangements.

It is also worth pointing out that even a cursory attempt to relocate a few BAC routes and extending the Coach Bay back towards Dame Street (a currently double yellow lined section) would allow one more full-size coach to operate from the existing stop.

I also suggest that the Westbound BAC Lucan Corridor routes have no business stopping on Westmoreland St at all,and should instead have their main CC stop opposite Pearse St Garda Station.

But thats all as may be,because at the present time,official policy appears to be to stick-it out and hope that there is not a multiple fatality at the Stop,the odds on which are constantly becoming shorter.


I would also have to cry foul at this little snipe..

It's a shame that once again the people who are CIE staff who originally proposed this site, and the usual people who back up everything CIE does, would propose it, when such situation may help the company they love.

I suspect that the Constitution may well forbid acts of "Love" between a Company and a Citizen,but I can assure Sandyford Guy that I do not "back-up" everything CIE does,but I like to think I can be even handed enough to see more than one side of any arguement ?

Sorted...I hope

bk

Hmm, passing Westmoreland St again today and frankly Dublin Bus have some big questions to answer here.

First you have stop No 320, which is right on top of the Aircoach/Dublin Coach stops.
This stop has a large number of very frequent routes on it: 11, 16, 46 and 7

Next close by you have stop no 319 which is also very busy with the following services operating on it: 1, 13, 140, 40, 44, 83, 9

Then you have stop no 318, which only has the 25x, 66x and 67x on it, all of which there are only one or two buses a day and for instance right now (4pm on Sunday there are no buses scheduled to use it according to the RTPI!!!!

Next you have stop no 317, which is a relatively lightly used stop with the 26, 66 and 67 operating out of it.

Then you have metal barriers along the rest of Westmoreland St, if you were to take away this barrier, you could easily fit at least one extra bus stop, if not two along there.

So there is really no reason for the dangerous situation at stop No 320. All the services at stop no 320 should be moved up to stop 318.

Ideally a new stop should be built further up the street and move services from the 319 there. Even better rebalance the services between these stops further up Westmoreland St.

Then there would be plenty of space for the Aircoach and Dublin Coach services to operate safely from their stops.

To be honest looking at the space on the street, I've no idea why DB are using stop no 320 and not using the significant free space further up the street, in particular at stop 318?

I can only think of two reasons:
1) Incompetence, they simply put the services there without thinking it through.

2) They want to make life hard for the Aircoach services, in particular having the 16 close to the competing Aircoach service.

I'd be glad to hear any other reasons?

noelfirl

3) Sunday traffic probably doesn't give anywhere near enough adequate representation of the traffic congestion using the left filter lane to turn onto the South Quays. On a weekday, particularly during peak times, the routes turning there include all of the 25/26/66/67 routes, the 39, 79, 83 and high frequency 39a and 145. And at evening peak time, the Xpressos (of which there are seven departures for each of the 66x and 67x and two for the 25x), some of which depart directly from upstream of stop 317. There's already congestion at stops 317/318 where the 26/66/67 routes take time to pull in to their stops because of the buses queuing to make the left turn, as well as general traffic.

To take your suggestion and move all routes forward from stop 320 to stop 318, would in my mind, create a clusterfúck of buses attempting to weave in and out to realign from going from the left lane onto O'Connell St lanes and vice versa.

KD345

The reason the positioning of the stops is to do with traffic flow. The left lane of Westmoreland Street is for left turning traffic only, which is why those stops closest to the corner are for buses turning onto Aston Quay. While there might appear to be free space around the metal barriers, the road is normally occupied by traffic queuing to turn left. If there was a bus stop here it would affect traffic flowing straight onto O'Connell Bridge.

Any bus routes traveling over O'Connell Bridge could not stop any further beyond stop 319 as getting into the correct lane would be very difficult.

Maybe a solution would be to relocate buses stopping at stop 317 to Crampton Quay at the old 39/a stop, meaning the 26, 66 and 67 would stop at Pearse Steeet and then Crampton Quay. Not too far a distance. Then stop 317 could be used for coaches turning up the quay (Dublin Coach and Gobe).

I wouldn't see the 16 and Aircoach stopping together as a bad thing. It gives choice to passengers traveling to the airport. What I would like to see happen is a big clean up of street furniture at this stop to have one bus stop for all services stopping here. At the moment it's cluttered and confusing.

devnull

GoBE don't stop at Westmoreland Street, but the Aircoach Cork service does. That GoBE sign there is advertising.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Hmm, passing Westmoreland St again today and frankly Dublin Bus have some big questions to answer here.

First you have stop No 320, which is right on top of the Aircoach/Dublin Coach stops.
This stop has a large number of very frequent routes on it: 11, 16, 46 and 7

Next close by you have stop no 319 which is also very busy with the following services operating on it: 1, 13, 140, 40, 44, 83, 9

Then you have stop no 318, which only has the 25x, 66x and 67x on it, all of which there are only one or two buses a day and for instance right now (4pm on Sunday there are no buses scheduled to use it according to the RTPI!!!!

Next you have stop no 317, which is a relatively lightly used stop with the 26, 66 and 67 operating out of it.

Then you have metal barriers along the rest of Westmoreland St, if you were to take away this barrier, you could easily fit at least one extra bus stop, if not two along there.

So there is really no reason for the dangerous situation at stop No 320. All the services at stop no 320 should be moved up to stop 318.

Ideally a new stop should be built further up the street and move services from the 319 there. Even better rebalance the services between these stops further up Westmoreland St.

Then there would be plenty of space for the Aircoach and Dublin Coach services to operate safely from their stops.

To be honest looking at the space on the street, I've no idea why DB are using stop no 320 and not using the significant free space further up the street, in particular at stop 318?

I can only think of two reasons:

1) Incompetence, they simply put the services there without thinking it through.

2) They want to make life hard for the Aircoach services, in particular having the 16 close to the competing Aircoach service.

I'd be glad to hear any other reasons?

Good post bk,but I'd have to call you on both of your "reasons".

It's worth noting that Stops 319 and 320 prexist the Coach Services by decades and their placement and allocation involved exactly the "thinking it through" now being called for.

However,in the interim,the Authorities felt it expedient to keep allocating inappropriate types of service to an already heavily served location.

Stop 320 and 319's route allocations are in the main those routes which then must position to cross O Connell Bridge Northbound.

317 and 318's allocations are routes,in the main Westbound, turning left onto Aston Quay.

A further complication,and an equally irresponsible Safety Compromise,is the left-turn into Fleet Street,which, significantly,is maintained mainly to facilitate a Multi Storey Car-Park.

When assessing the performance of these Stops,one must take a step back and observe from a little further than the BusStop area itself.

If,for example,one stands on the Island (Former Public Toilet Block) then a very clear appreciation of the level of difficulty faced by Bus & Coach Drivers alike can be gained.(Presuming,that is,one is open to such thing)

Note for example,the speed and unpredictability of general traffic exiting College St, making last minute acute directional changes (at speed) to get across FOUR traffic lanes,into Fleet St,often simply becaused the driver has glimpsed the Blue P car park sign.

(Remember that such traffic is coming from a significant blind-spot behind the Busdrivers right ear,not covered by mirrors and only visible when actively scanned)

I feel that any suggestion to move North Bound BAC Services any further North along Westmoreland St is unsustainable,both from on operational and safety perspective.

However,I do accept that those Westbound BAC Routes should not be stopping on Westmoreland St at all,but should instead utilize the current Pearse St/College St Stop as their main CC Loading point.

This would indeed allow ALL of the Coach Services to move Northwards,which as most of them turn left onto Aston Quay,would appear to be Common Sense ?

It should also be borne in mind,that whilst Bus & Coach Stop allocation remains a function of a Traffic Sub-Committee,the final call is with the Gardai,which makes the current long-running situation all the more shameful.

I would have to reiterate that Both of bk's "conclusions" are incorrect,particularly the 16A vs Aircoach comparison,just not happening I'm afraid,two Completely different customer bases....:)

However,as the entire issue of Westmoreland St will soon become moot due to LUAS BXD works,I'm far more curious as to what the "Experts" have lined up for us in that respect ?