Hurling League Format

Amprodude

deisefolife wrote: »

the league format is a joke.. but what can we do. the more games that get played will only benefit the teams and players, and build confidence in the weaker counties,and younger players

I don't think Limerick or Cork will learn much about their teams and setups playing weaker counties in 1B no disrespect to the teams there. Limerick and Cork will be away off the pace if they are to face any teams from the top tier. It's Corks own fault that they are there though. The same cant be said for Limerick who were unlucky due to league structure changes not to be playing in the top tier this year.

Amprodude

Thinkstoomuch wrote: »

I agree as a Cork fan ,we are here for a reason.I hope we serve our time now as we were not good enough on the field of play.Simple as that.
A lot of Counties hate Cork and the last thing we want is to add fuel to that and in order to get any diginity and respect back we have to be treated the same.
Just because were Cork it should not be changed.
Fans have felt the pain for years of our Hurlings demise in the County.
Now the CCB will feel it in their pockets next year.
At this year home games against Tipp and Clare( a double header) we had an average of around 6 thousand at each game.
In 2011 against Offaly in the Pairc there was only 1406 for the league game.
Thats against offaly an attractive tie in terms we have a history with them.
Thats is poor though.
Imagine Cork V Laois.Will Laois fans make the journey for a round trip for a game they have no chance of winning.
There would be barely 500 hundreds id say at the game.I could not see many cork fans travelling either.
Are you going to spend 13 euro for a game and another 20 euro in petrol if you have a distance to travel for Cork V Laois a team we scored ten goals against in 2011.And with all due respect to Laois but their not box office.
If its pissing out the heavens and there is six nations rubgy on tv most people won't stir for a game like that.
How many Cork fans will travel up to Antrim?
There might be a bigger crowd at the limerick game if it was a home game but I doubt they will get 6 thousand not even if they moved it to Mallow which their talking about doing for Football games over poor turnouts.
They never thought they have the same problem with Hurling.
They still believe in this Mushroom Theory that Cork Hurlers are produced over night in the blink of an eye.

Just a general thought, I'm surprised more hasn't been said about this in Cork amongst clubs etc. Im not talking strikes here before someone mentions it. Its been generally accepted and business as usual for Corks demotion. Cork have been demoted off the top table of the hurling greats. If Kilkenny went down to 1B status would it be accepted in Kilkenny? I dont think so. Something would be done that minute to make sure it wouldn't happen again. Someone would be accountable, but not every county has a Frank in their ranks.

feargale

A middling county e.g. Antrim should have at least two competitions every year, one where they play better teams and can learn from them, and one where they play their equals or weaker teams, and so have a chance of winning silverware. And for goodness sake call the league divisions one and two. That's what they are. Who is fooling who with this 1B business?

Hidalgo

This has been a very competitive league this year due to the format.

If it was an 8 or 10 team division you'll probably end up with dead rubber games. This year, every team had a lot to play for on the last day.
Unfortunately, Div 1B is more one sided and the last few years its been pretty straight forward predicting whose going to make it to the final.

One problem with a 6 team in 1A is it's difficult for management to experiment due to each game meaning so much. That said, management will find out more about the players that do see action as there has been plenty cut and thrust to the games.

Clareman

Spawning from the discussion in the Clare v. Cork play off thread I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread dedicated to people's ideas as to what would be the best format for the hurling league.

So what do you think would be your ideal format for the league?

Clareman

For me the current structure works, not only is it nice and compact so you can have the whole thing over in 7 weekends, but you also have competitive matches without much space for dead rubbers. In lower divisions you also have competitive fixtures for teams to try to get up to the next division and there isn't much space for a complete yo-yo effect of the teams that get relegated bouncing straight back up.

KevIRL

A lot of thoughts in the will Cork be relegated thread Clareman

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056926530

Might be best to merge with that thread and edit the thread title, otherwise theres just a lot duplicate posts.

iDave

Regardless of the number of teams in a division and how many games they play but a team finishing top of the division must be promoted. Cant carry on with the ridiculous situation where a team can have a 100% record in the league and then not get promoted for having an off day in the final.

adrian522

I like the current format for a number of reasons.

The main one being that all the games are important and all the games are competitive. True there are only 5 games, but I'd much rather 5 important, competitive games than 9 games where all the top teams know they are safe from relegation and know that they don't need to put in much effort.

The next reason I like the current format is that for teams relegated it's not the end of the world, they can still prepare well enough for the championship and will have a chance at competing for the league title.

Under the old system the main complaint was that whoever got relegated was playing a lot of one sided matches against inferior opposition. If the system was changed to a 10 team league the relegated team from this setup would be in serious trouble for the next season as far as championship preparation is concerned.

The third reason I like the current setup is the opportunity it gives counties like Westmeath and Antrim to play against decent opposition without getting blown out by the big guns. This allows them to get competitive games without having demoralizing defeats.

Finally the current setup allows for club games to scheduled if county boards are of a mind to schedule them. If Counties had to play 9 league games that opportunity would be diminished.

The current in-vogue thinking is that we need a 10 team division one. There has been a concerted media campaign to get this done and it will probably come about but I think it will be bad for the game for the reasons I've outlined above.

I know of no other sport in the world that has this amount of bitching and moaning from relegated and lower level teams to reformat the competition year after year to suit their vested interests. Hopefully we can at some point reach a stage where we have a structure that can be left in place for a minimum of 5 years and teams that find themselves in division 2 just get on without rather than trying everything to get the format changed again.

Rightwing

The current format is very competitive in 1A. I'd like 8 teams in that division, with 2 relegated.

Thinkstoomuch

Donal Og Grady said the league should the same format as this year,bar the bottom team of each group play the top team of the group below them to decide who gets promoted or relegated.
And by doing that you would do away with having to beat the same team twice which was a hindrance to the likes of Westmeath and Limerick who both beat laois and Dublin but lost the important clashes.
I can't see them changing it,attendances and tv figures are the best ever,and that will influence their decision.

dzer2

What you are seeing in county teams reflects the club scene within the county. If you have a real good club championship it will enhance the county team. I dont think it would matter as much to KK, tipp or galway if they were relegated as they would be as competitive the following year. Most players are the extremely good by the time they join up with county panels and its just fine tuning and getting used to playing in the teams systems.

KevIRL

For me there's not a whole lot wrong with the current format, its competitive in both top divisions and that is very important. I do feel however that there are far too few games. Only 5 games in the league is simply not enough, also there is the situation where 1 team in 1A and 2 in 1B have no league games once March ends.
Personally I would like to keep the 6 teams per division but change the format to make it home and away games for each team. This would mean 10 games per team in the league. Also it would mean 5 games at home for each team, far too few games take place at home grounds for hurling teams imo. I would prefer just to crown the league winners champions but understand that from a sponsorship POV the GAA probably would want a final, so I'd make it top 2 into the final with the bottom 2 being relegated, and top 2 from division 2 getting promoted, this would keep things competitive throughout. The extra games would also give managers some extra scope to try out some new players.
I realise that the 10 games would be a push fixturewise and perhaps something would need to be done regarding the pre-season competitions and perhaps start the league a week or 2 early. But the value of having all teams hurling competitively right up until the end of April at least on firming sods cannot be underestimated.

I learned from the other thread that the format is due to change slightly in 2014 anyway and the top 4 teams in 1A and 1B will qualify for quarter finals, this is good in terms of extra games but not so good in terms of the competitivness that everyone enjoyed this year

A poster on Thestripeymen.com (KK Forum) made a v good post (http://www.thestripeymen.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=183) earlier this year asking for more league games, its well worth a read and he makes some very good points re home games also. Its mad to think that Bruce Springsteen over 2 nights will play longer at Nowlan Park than Kilkenny Seniors will do over 2 years.

Mal-Adjusted

Thinkstoomuch wrote: »

Donal Og Grady said the league should the same format as this year,bar the bottom team of each group play the top team of the group below them to decide who gets promoted or relegated.
And by doing that you would do away with having to beat the same team twice which was a hindrance to the likes of Westmeath and Limerick who both beat laois and Dublin but lost the important clashes.
I can't see them changing it,attendances and tv figures are the best ever,and that will influence their decision.

no. anything like this is only another barrier to promotion/relegation and would only strengthen the whole "elitist attitude" some people are accusing the GAA of having.

eigrod

15 or 20 years ago, Dublin weren't within an asses roar of the top 8 hurling teams in the country. Yet they elevated themselves to that level despite the various league systems that were in place during those years, not because of the various league systems.

Bottom line is if you get your infrastructure right in a bottom up approach, as clearly Dublin have, then you will make the top 8 irrespective of the league system. The top 8 could then become a top 10, and then a top 12 etc etc.

Unfortunately, Westmeath, Wexford and Offaly have gone the other way during that time.

looder

KevIRL wrote: »

For me there's not a whole lot wrong with the current format, its competitive in both top divisions and that is very important. I do feel however that there are far too few games. Only 5 games in the league is simply not enough, also there is the situation where 1 team in 1A and 2 in 1B have no league games once March ends.
Personally I would like to keep the 6 teams per division but change the format to make it home and away games for each team. This would mean 10 games per team in the league. Also it would mean 5 games at home for each team, far too few games take place at home grounds for hurling teams imo. I would prefer just to crown the league winners champions but understand that from a sponsorship POV the GAA probably would want a final, so I'd make it top 2 into the final with the bottom 2 being relegated, and top 2 from division 2 getting promoted, this would keep things competitive throughout. The extra games would also give managers some extra scope to try out some new players.
I realise that the 10 games would be a push fixturewise and perhaps something would need to be done regarding the pre-season competitions and perhaps start the league a week or 2 early. But the value of having all teams hurling competitively right up until the end of April at least on firming sods cannot be underestimated.

I learned from the other thread that the format is due to change slightly in 2014 anyway and the top 4 teams in 1A and 1B will qualify for quarter finals, this is good in terms of extra games but not so good in terms of the competitivness that everyone enjoyed this year

A poster on Thestripeymen.com (KK Forum) made a v good post (http://www.thestripeymen.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=183) earlier this year asking for more league games, its well worth a read and he makes some very good points re home games also. Its mad to think that Bruce Springsteen over 2 nights will play longer at Nowlan Park than Kilkenny Seniors will do over 2 years.

10 league games would kill the club championships.

This year was the best league we had in years. If it's not broke, don't fix it in my opinion.

KevIRL

looder wrote: »

10 league games would kill the club championships.

This year was the best league we had in years. If it's not broke, don't fix it in my opinion.

Its not fixed though. This year Waterford, Wexford and Offaly play no league games after 31st March. They have a gap throughout April and May with no competitive inter-county games, just as the sod starts to firm up and the weather gets better they are reduced to playing meaningless challenge matches. Things arent a lot better for Dublin, Cork, Clare, Antrim, Carlow, Laois and Westmeath who get games until mid april and thats it.

Next year QF's being brought in will be a welcome development in terms of more games but will reduce the competitivness of the league as a result.

Also teams like Clare, Kilkenny and Cork play a grand total of 2 home senior inter county competitve games this year. That is crazy, championship games are always likely to be fixed at nuetral venues so why not give more home games in the league by introducing a home and away fixture list

I do completely accept your point that more league games should not be allowed to interfere with the club championship, I would propose scrapping the pre season tournaments, starting the league a few weeks earlier and also with no QF/SF or relegation play off more time would be freed up.

I guess no proposal is perfect, there are positves and negatives to all, it does seem like a lot on here (this thread and the others) at least favour the retention of a 6 team division status for the league

nice_guy80

KevIRL wrote: »

Its not fixed though. This year Waterford, Wexford and Offaly play no league games after 31st March. They have a gap throughout April and May with no competitive inter-county games, just as the sod starts to firm up and the weather gets better they are reduced to playing meaningless challenge matches. Things arent a lot better for Dublin, Cork, Clare, Antrim, Carlow, Laois and Westmeath who get games until mid april and thats it.

Next year QF's being brought in will be a welcome development in terms of more games but will reduce the competitivness of the league as a result.

Also teams like Clare, Kilkenny and Cork play a grand total of 2 home senior inter county competitve games this year. That is crazy, championship games are always likely to be fixed at nuetral venues so why not give more home games in the league by introducing a home and away fixture list

I do completely accept your point that more league games should not be allowed to interfere with the club championship, I would propose scrapping the pre season tournaments, starting the league a few weeks earlier and also with no QF/SF or relegation play off more time would be freed up.

I guess no proposal is perfect, there are positves and negatives to all, it does seem like a lot on here (this thread and the others) at least favour the retention of a 6 team division status for the league

I don't see why more weekends don't double up for hurling and football
eg one weekend play all hurling games on Sunday, football on Saturday evening under lights. the next time up reverse the roles.
or let counties play double headers on Saturday evening or Sunday afternoon

at least that way weekends with no action could be factored in for club action
I do agree with the home and away thing - not enough people get to see the top players in action in their own grounds.

the same argument could be made for the football leagues - smaller leagues with home and away fixtures

adrian522

10 league games is way to many, you would have pitiful attendances, you would have meaningless games and you are probably talking about starting in the depths of winter, not to mention the impact you are having on clubs having their players away for so many games early in the year. Most IC players are already missing for most of the summer.

premierstone

iDave wrote: »

Regardless of the number of teams in a division and how many games they play but a team finishing top of the division must be promoted. Cant carry on with the ridiculous situation where a team can have a 100% record in the league and then not get promoted for having an off day in the final.

Don't agree with this at all, if you can't win the playoff then you have no business moving up a level in the first place, and if we were to go with your proposal then the team that had home advantage in the league would have a huge unfair advantage, a playoff between the top two in a neutral venue is fairer imo and creates something alot closer to championship hurling than any round robin game.

jordainius

One up one down is flawed, particularly when a team who finishes 6th avoids relegation or a team who finishes 1st doesn't get promoted.

I'm no fan of the present format, but one change I would make would be to have a relegation/promotion play-off between the relegation final winners and the division 2 final runners up.

So there'd be a relegation/promotion play off between Clare and Limerick between division 1 and 2, and a relegation/promotion play off between Antrim and Westmeath between division 2 and 3, and so on down the divisions.

In the last 5 years on only two occasions has the team that topped the group ended up being promoted.

Best format in my opinion was the top 12 divided into 2 groups of 6 that was used for most of the last decade up to 2008.

Nobody will post something in this thread that gets universal agreement!!

Amprodude

eigrod wrote: »

Unfortunately, Westmeath, Wexford and Offaly have gone the other way during that time.

You can add Cork to that list now too.

premierstone

eigrod wrote: »

15 or 20 years ago, Dublin weren't within an asses roar of the top 8 hurling teams in the country. Yet they elevated themselves to that level despite the various league systems that were in place during those years, not because of the various league systems.

Bottom line is if you get your infrastructure right in a bottom up approach, as clearly Dublin have, then you will make the top 8 irrespective of the league system. The top 8 could then become a top 10, and then a top 12 etc etc.

Unfortunately, Westmeath, Wexford and Offaly have gone the other way during that time.

Absolutely spot on, far too many people looking to blame others, and the system etc. etc. when the problems are in house. County's need to get their own house in order , there is no magic solution.

Mr Tibbs

eigrod wrote: »

15 or 20 years ago, Dublin weren't within an asses roar of the top 8 hurling teams in the country. Yet they elevated themselves to that level despite the various league systems that were in place during those years, not because of the various league systems.

Bottom line is if you get your infrastructure right in a bottom up approach, as clearly Dublin have, then you will make the top 8 irrespective of the league system. The top 8 could then become a top 10, and then a top 12 etc etc.

Unfortunately, Westmeath, Wexford and Offaly have gone the other way during that time.

20 years ago Kerry beat Waterford in the Championship. People forget how far we have traveled in that time and it was two great Cork men that first led us out of the darkness.

blue note

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

20 years ago Kerry beat Waterford in the Championship. People forget how far we have traveled in that time and it was two great Cork men that first led us out of the darkness.

They led us, but it was work done with youngsters in the county that really dragged us up. The underage success and the couple of top class club teams we had in their time are no coincidence.

If their own county is in order they needn't worry about what division they're in. If they have the players, they'll get promoted.

Of course don't get me wrong - I know Cork have been relegated, but I hardly think they've slipped down the rankings to any sort of average level. They're still a top side and would be right to fancy their chances against anyone other than Kilkenny.

the kelt

eigrod wrote: »

15 or 20 years ago, Dublin weren't within an asses roar of the top 8 hurling teams in the country. Yet they elevated themselves to that level despite the various league systems that were in place during those years, not because of the various league systems.

Bottom line is if you get your infrastructure right in a bottom up approach, as clearly Dublin have, then you will make the top 8 irrespective of the league system. The top 8 could then become a top 10, and then a top 12 etc etc.

Unfortunately, Westmeath, Wexford and Offaly have gone the other way during that time.

You are conveniently ignoring a few things, one is the money pumped into hurling in Dublin compared to other counties, two even through the majority of those years of Dublin establishing themselves they were playing league games against the top teams and being exposed to that level of hurling and thirdly no other county has benefited more than Dublin when it comes to exiles from other counties hurling with them which has also helped them become established faster.

Now this isn't meant to be critical of what Dublin have done, the work they have done under age is phenomenal but they are a world apart from lots of other counties.

No one is saying that re adjusting the league to say 2 groups of 6 is suddenly going to solve the woes in counties like my own but it will help a lot more than the current system does and has.

Fireball07

I am a Limerick fan and I want them to be playing top tier league hurling.


However, the return to 8 teams does have a serious problem. Assuming that, at the moment, we have 8 teams who are better than the rest...what happens when one of them gets relegated? People think 1B is bad now...but it would be even worse with 8 team divisions.

As for home and away in a 6-team, I don't think the calendar can hold that without getting rid of the early provincial competitions (Waterford Crystal, Walsh Cup, etc). The club championships are already struggling to schedule fixtures without adding in another 5 rounds of fixtures.

deisefolife

Thinkstoomuch wrote: »

Donal Og Grady said the league should the same format as this year,bar the bottom team of each group play the top team of the group below them to decide who gets promoted or relegated.
And by doing that you would do away with having to beat the same team twice which was a hindrance to the likes of Westmeath and Limerick who both beat laois and Dublin but lost the important clashes.
I can't see them changing it,attendances and tv figures are the best ever,and that will influence their decision.

that's a very good idea. and a fair one as well. wonder why they never considered it when they structured the new format. :rolleyes:

Hammer Archer

premierstone wrote: »

Don't agree with this at all, if you can't win the playoff then you have no business moving up a level in the first place, and if we were to go with your proposal then the team that had home advantage in the league would have a huge unfair advantage, a playoff between the top two in a neutral venue is fairer imo and creates something alot closer to championship hurling than any round robin game.

But at the same time, you could say that if you can't come top of the lower league, you have no business moving up a level.
At the moment, in the lower leagues at least, there is absolutely no advantage in coming top of the league. As I said before, Meath hammered London in the league game, came top of Division 2B, yet got nothing out of it and will stay in 2B next season. We have some very decent hurlers coming through the ranks but having only one team get promoted each year will mean it'll be very difficult to improve.

As well as that, there is absolutely no advantage in attempting to not come last. A team can play as badly as they like in the league knowing they only need to win a single game (the relegation playoff) and they'll stay up. Two examples of this were Divisions 2A and 3A. In 2A Wicklow beat Kildare "away from home" (the game was played in Croke Park), came second from bottom, yet were relegated to Division 2B at Kildare's expense. In 3A, Tyrone beat Monaghan in Clones in the league and finished above them. Yet the relegation final is played in Cavan (much closer to Monaghan) and they are relegated.

I seriously think this format needs to change. It's grossly unfair in my view.

slegs

I'm from Limerick and I don't think there is anything wrong with the current format. Div 1A is very competitive. I can remember in years gone by most games in Division 1 of the league were a boring pile of sh1te. You cant really say that anymore. Division 1B is very lop sided though. Its Limerick's own fault we didn't seal promotion this year and last year. We had Dublin on the rack for large portions of the final and didn't close the deal. Also against Clare last year it was a good game with Clare deservedly edging it.

The fact that getting out of Div 1B meant so much to Limerick means that loss will hurt and may help development over the year. We just have to put the head down and get geared up for 2 big games against Cork again next year and make sure not to mess up against Offaly or Wexford.

That said we did get shafted royally in 2011 and the GAA would not have done what they did if it meant Cork, Tipp, Kilkenny, Galway or Dublin would have ended up in Division 1B. It suited them just grand when they were just fúcking over Clare, Limerick and Wexford. God knows how much they love to see Dublin do well.

slegs

Fireball07 wrote: »

I am a Limerick fan and I want them to be playing top tier league hurling.


However, the return to 8 teams does have a serious problem. Assuming that, at the moment, we have 8 teams who are better than the rest...what happens when one of them gets relegated? People think 1B is bad now...but it would be even worse with 8 team divisions.

As for home and away in a 6-team, I don't think the calendar can hold that without getting rid of the early provincial competitions (Waterford Crystal, Walsh Cup, etc). The club championships are already struggling to schedule fixtures without adding in another 5 rounds of fixtures.

I agree with this. God help us if Dublin or Cork got relegated from an 8 team 1A...

Clareman

I for 1 am not a fan of the whole worst in 1 division plays the best in the other scenario, it's far more of an advantage for the team in the higher division.

Hidalgo

Rather than the bottom team in 1A play the top in 1B, I'd keep the current format of 1 up and 1 down automatically.

But adding in, 2nd from bottom of 1A plays 2nd from top in 1B, with the winner remaining in 1A. Ditto, as you go down the groups.

What I liked most about this years format was the competitiveness, it made a nice change that there were no dead rubbers in the last round of 1A.

Hammer Archer

Hidalgo wrote: »

But adding in, 2nd from bottom of 1A plays 2nd from top in 1B, with the winner remaining in 1A. Ditto, as you go down the groups.

I'd personally be in favour of this. This way would mean that the league winner would get rewarded for their consistency (and the team bottom of the league vice versa) while also giving the second team a chance to promote if they're good enough against a higher division team.

Fireball07

Yeah, I would be a fan of that too.

Clareman

How about having the winner of the relegation play-off from division 1A (i.e. Clare this year) play the runners up in the 1B promotion playoff (i.e. Limerick), have the game as the "minor" match before the League final.

Hidalgo

Clareman wrote: »

How about having the winner of the relegation play-off from division 1A (i.e. Clare this year) play the runners up in the 1B promotion playoff (i.e. Limerick), have the game as the "minor" match before the League final.

A fairer way than the current set up imo. Albeit the margins in 1B are very small. That's why I'd favour 2nd from top playing 2nd from bottom.

I think the main gripe people have with the current format is that finishing 1st or 2nd is no advantage, there should be some sort of incentive even if its only guaranteed home advantage for the winner of 1B V the 2nd place.
For example, Limerick topped 1B in 2011 and had to go to Ennis for the final, last year it was the other way around with Clare topping the group and the 2nd placed team getting home advantage for the final.

Clareman

Agreed, there is no difference between first and second, there should be something to encourage being top, if your county ground is good enough to host a league match it should be good enough to host a league playoff match as well.

I do think that 2 teams going down automatically is too many, that'd be a third of the current structure, but there should be an opportunity for 2 teams to go up, the league should be setup in a way to allow "weaker" teams play more often against the stronger teams.

keane2097

Kev did an article on this for LiveGaelic if anyone wants to take a look:

http://www.livegaelic.com/features/hurling-league-format/

KevIRL

keane2097 wrote: »

Kev did an article on this for LiveGaelic if anyone wants to take a look:

http://www.livegaelic.com/features/hurling-league-format/

linky no worky

keane2097

Works fine for me?

KevIRL

keane2097 wrote: »

Works fine for me?

I'm getting a page not found error with a message saying 'I'm not sure what you're looking for!'

Clareman

I'm getting a page not found error as well

deisefolife

KevIRL wrote: »

I'm getting a page not found error with a message saying 'I'm not sure what you're looking for!'

i get that too when i try and use the mobile site, with my phone. so i just click on full site. it only started about a week ago maybe more



sorry should have read the post properly. im on about boards mobile site.

is that happening for anyone else ??

keane2097

KevIRL wrote: »

I'm getting a page not found error with a message saying 'I'm not sure what you're looking for!'

Clareman wrote: »

I'm getting a page not found error as well

Sorry lads, upgrading the server at the moment so having a few hiccups. Gimme a minute to sort it out.

keane2097

Should be back in business.

KevIRL

keane2097 wrote: »

Should be back in business.

Link works fine for me now alright now Keane

Mountainlad

After that game, I could really see change to the League Format. It's clear now that the introduction of 8 team quarter finals between 1A and 1B is an impending disaster. It can't go ahead.

the kelt

Just been watching the Tipp Dublin match and the gap between Tipp and Dublin is worrying. And this is a Dublin team that were there or thereabouts for the past few years and one season down in 1b and look at where they are so imagine what it's doing to other teams.

But of course according to some the current system is fine, yeah fine for the bigger counties as the monopoly continues as they get stronger and the gap to the other widens but sure maybe that's what the GAA wants

Mr Tibbs

Dublin were lucky Tipp decided to stay in second gear as the gap between these two teams was alarming considering this new league format was supposed to improve the standard of hurling. A good game of cricket would be more entertaining than what was on today. Tipp looked very good and seemed to have a strong bench but the opposition was woeful. A real pity because Dublin have made great strides in the last few years wining the league two years ago.