Woman refused entry to low floor bus with buggy

murphaph

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

The Airlink subtype is not a major departure from the prevailing interior and bodywork seen as per most VGs and AVs. The buses I've used throughout Europe (perhaps less so in the UK) are a big departure from Dublin Bus coaches, with triple doors and a more extensive use of single-decked buses etc. I would expect that the pretty-much continuous use of Alexander and Wright over the past 20 years had a bearing on this?

Could there be a return to articulated buses of a more reliable type than the ones which used to operate on the 4s and 10s a few years ago?

Artics should definitely be used in Dublin BUT you have to dedicate them to routes to which they are suitable. This does impose an operational restriction on the operator, but I think it can be overcome with decent resource planning.

Even without artics, the double decker we know in Ireland/Britain with its single door at the front for boarding/alighting is a disaster area for dwell times and passenger comfort. A Berlin double decker has 3 sets of doors and 2 staircases. You board at the front and either go straight up the stairs (located immediately behind driver) or stay in the lower saloon. You exit through the centre or rear doors. The rear doors line up with the rear staircase which is where passengers in the upper saloon are supposed to alight via. It's a stream of movement from front to rear of the vehicle, whether upper or lower saloon.

Centre doors can be used for boarding by pram/buggy/wheelchair users who park up directly opposite these doors.

lucernarian

murphaph wrote: »

Even without artics, the double decker we know in Ireland/Britain with its single door at the front for boarding/alighting is a disaster area for dwell times and passenger comfort. A Berlin double decker has 3 sets of doors and 2 staircases. You board at the front and either go straight up the stairs (located immediately behind driver) or stay in the lower saloon. You exit through the centre or rear doors. The rear doors line up with the rear staircase which is where passengers in the upper saloon are supposed to alight via. It's a stream of movement from front to rear of the vehicle, whether upper or lower saloon.

Centre doors can be used for boarding by pram/buggy/wheelchair users who park up directly opposite these doors.

The buses operated by VfB are different to what DB currently have on the road though. Different chassis and bodywork anyway. Though looking at versions of Geminis abroad, it does seem to be a flexible machine and could accommodate the kind of adaptations seen in continental Europe for example. Do they offer triaxle buses with two staircases though? I know the new Londonbus offers two staircases but then I thought they were extremely expensive purchases too.

Mental Mickey

hoodwinked wrote: »

Correct me if im wrong but i think bus eireann buses (in cork anyway) have a blue sign on those seats saying "please give up this seat if an elderly or disabled person needs it"

i was always under the impression it was fine to use it with a buggy but if a wheelchair user came on board i'd have to move or fold it


but then they also had space for 2 or 3 buggies to be unfolded and not blocking anything.

You're not wrong. On all Dublin buses, there are blue signs on the buses, on both the wheelchair space, and the single seat near the front, stating that they should be given up for people who are in need of them(wheelchair space for wheelchairs, and the single seat near the front for elderly or infirm persons.

Carawaystick

The ratp in Paris have signs explicitly listing the order of priority for seats:
Top of the list are disabled veterans
Then disabled
Then elderly
Then mothers with small children or pregnant women


You might argue the categories, but you could not argue that someone made a decision, and clearly communicated it

Uriel.

Mental Mickey wrote: »

You're not wrong. On all Dublin buses, there are blue signs on the buses, on both the wheelchair space, and the single seat near the front, stating that they should be given up for people who are in need of them(wheelchair space for wheelchairs, and the single seat near the front for elderly or infirm persons.

They should be or they HAVE to be.

Big difference.

Del2005

Carawaystick wrote: »

The ratp in Paris have signs explicitly listing the order of priority for seats:
Top of the list are disabled veterans
Then disabled
Then elderly
Then mothers with small children or pregnant women


You might argue the categories, but you could not argue that someone made a decision, and clearly communicated it

And they aren't afraid to enforce these rights, which is a shame as it should be human decency to give up seats to the more needy.

Mental Mickey

Uriel. wrote: »

They should be or they HAVE to be.

Big difference.

It roughly(cant remember the exact wording)requests that seats be given up should an elderly or disabled person need it. These signs are blue and are written in both English and Irish.

AlekSmart

Uriel. wrote: »

how difficult would it be for DB (or any other similar company) to introduce a bye law/regulation/term of use stating that the wheelchair space is designed for wheelchair users as a priority. Pram/Buggy users can make use of that space as long as not required by a wheelchair user. Then should a wheelchair user come to need the space the owner of the pram/buggy has a choice - fold the pram and clear the space or get off the bus.

Stick a sign on the bus to that effect and there you go. A clear legal situation and IMO the correct priority being given to the wheelchair user.

Not difficult at all Uriel,except perhaps finding space for yet another sign.....:)

The reality is that from 2000 to late 2009 most,if not all,Dublin Bus drivers and assorted other staff were of the opinion that all the Disabled Access,Low-Floor paraphernalia meant that the Wheelchair Space was specifically intended for a....Wheelchair.

However,that assumption proved to be somewhat mistaken,and there remains a question as to whether,if Senior Management were actually aware of the leglislative lacuna,the Company could,or should,have advised front-line Staff appropriately.

The current (typically Irish) nonsense stems from an incident on Abbey St involving a bus which was about to depart the stop with an occupied buggy on board.

A wheelchair user subsequently arrived and the Busdriver,assuming that he was acting in compliance with the Disability Access regulations,requested the Buggy's pusher to fold and stow.

The lady responded by saying she was unable/unwilling to comply,at which point the Busdriver requested her to leave the Bus in order to allow the Wheelchair user access the Wheelchair Priority space.

From a Busdrivers perspective it is a Lose/Lose situation and so it proved in this instance,as the incident soon made Liveline.

Whilst Dublin Bus representatives referred to the disabled access facilities and the appropriate trained staff,it emerged from the programme that,not surprisingly,the wording involved in the leglislation was ambiguous.

A definitive interpretation was then sought from the Equality Commissioner,who with Solomon like wisdom,decided to focus fully on the Equality issue rather than address the,by now,glaring fudge in the application of the act.

So as it currently stands we have a Fully Accessible Low-Floor Bus Fleet,with Wheelchair Specific facilities,which may..or may not be utilised by a Wheelchair Passenger depending on the humour of a non-disabled passenger who gains the benefit of the First Up-Best Dressed philosophy.

The issue is simple enough to solve.....but involves substituting words such as MUST,and INSTRUCTED rather than "Should" and "Requested" .

The actual Legal Situation as referred to by Uriel is quite clear...no ambiguity about it whatsoever...A disabled Wheelchair User has NO absolute right in Law to access a Wheelchair specific Space if that space is occupied by another passenger legally on board the Bus.

Where we go to from here is entirely up to the Legislators !

BenShermin

The majority of people "choose" to have babies and all the inconvenience that comes with that.
Nobody "chooses" to be wheelchair bound.


For me it's as simple as that, and anybody who doesn't fold their buggy/pram up to allow a wheelchair user on board is a scum bag imo, the same goes for able bodied people not giving up seats to elderly on buses etc.

cdebru

An excellent summary of the situation and how we got here.


Yeah good old joe, sorted that one out, people wringing their hands and worrying about the able bodied, and no one giving a feck about the wheelchair users.

I have often wondered why no wheelchair user has ever called joe to complain when they were left at the stop, because some ignorant slob with a child nearly ready to start school, refuses to fold the buggy they have squeezed the child into.

If any chance the law might be changed joe is the only hope, whether its magic mushrooms or head shops,or protecting the buggy pushers joe is your only man.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Not difficult at all Uriel,except perhaps finding space for yet another sign.....:)

The reality is that from 2000 to late 2009 most,if not all,Dublin Bus drivers and assorted other staff were of the opinion that all the Disabled Access,Low-Floor paraphernalia meant that the Wheelchair Space was specifically intended for a....Wheelchair.

However,that assumption proved to be somewhat mistaken,and there remains a question as to whether,if Senior Management were actually aware of the leglislative lacuna,the Company could,or should,have advised front-line Staff appropriately.

The current (typically Irish) nonsense stems from an incident on Abbey St involving a 130 which was about to depart the stop with an occupied buggy on board.

A wheelchair user subsequently arrived and the Busdriver,assuming that he was acting in compliance with the Disability Access regulations,requested the Buggy's pusher to fold and stow.

The lady responded by saying she was unable/unwilling to comply,at which point the Busdriver requested her to leave the Bus in order to allow the Wheelchair user access the Wheelchair Priority space.

From a Busdrivers perspective it is a Lose/Lose situation and so it proved in this instance,as the incident soon made Liveline.

Whilst Dublin Bus representatives referred to the disabled access facilities and the appropriate trained staff,it emerged from the programme that,not surprisingly,the wording involved in the leglislation was ambiguous.

A definitive interpretation was then sought from the Equality Commissioner,who with Solomon like wisdom,decided to focus fully on the Equality issue rather than address the,by now,glaring fudge in the application of the act.

So as it currently stands we have a Fully Accessible Low-Floor Bus Fleet,with Wheelchair Specific facilities,which may..or may not be utilised by a Wheelchair Passenger depending on the humour of a non-disabled passenger who gains the benefit of the First Up-Best Dressed philosophy.

The issue is simple enough to solve.....but involves substituting words such as MUST,and INSTRUCTED rather than "Should" and "Requested" .

The actual Legal Situation as referred to by Uriel is quite clear...no ambiguity about it whatsoever...A disabled Wheelchair User has NO absolute right in Law to access a Wheelchair specific Space if that space is occupied by another passenger legally on board the Bus.

Where we go to from here is entirely up to the Legislators !

end of the road

BenShermin wrote: »

The majority of people "choose" to have babies and all the inconvenience that comes with that.
Nobody "chooses" to be wheelchair bound.


For me it's as simple as that, and anybody who doesn't fold their buggy/pram up to allow a wheelchair user on board is a scum bag imo

couldn't agree more, the relevant laws need to be changed to make sure wheelchair passengers get priority over those with buggys and prams, if someone refuses to fold up their buggy or refuses to leave the bus when instructed to then either allow the driver to remove such vermin from the bus or at least turn off the bus engine until the guards arrive

lucernarian

BenShermin wrote: »

The majority of people "choose" to have babies and all the inconvenience that comes with that.
Nobody "chooses" to be wheelchair bound.


For me it's as simple as that, and anybody who doesn't fold their buggy/pram up to allow a wheelchair user on board is a scum bag imo, the same goes for able bodied people not giving up seats to elderly on buses etc.

That's a good point. Perhaps not *quite* a fair comparison but I agree with the sentiment. Although again it sidesteps the unfortunate circumstances where a parent with young twins has to use the bus. A rare issue when those parents and a wheelchair user should meet but one that ought to be accounted for all the same. And I don't remember parents "choosing" to have twins etc.

BenShermin

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

That's a good point. Perhaps not *quite* a fair comparison but I agree with the sentiment. Although again it sidesteps the unfortunate circumstances where a parent with young twins has to use the bus. A rare issue when those parents and a wheelchair user should meet but one that ought to be accounted for all the same. And I don't remember parents "choosing" to have twins etc.

You choose to have a baby then you take the risk to have twins. Nobody chooses to break "both" their legs though! The point is understandable though, and we wouldn't have this conversation if we lived in a world of common sense, ah well!

Mrs OBumble

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Seems to make sense, particularly if parents have alternatives for babies of all ages, like pouches. Though I could sympathise with a parent who has a <6 month old baby and pram and has to take the bus for whatever reason. It's not like most prams can be folded or babies can be easily carried around instead of kept in the pram. I'm presuming this is easier than it is for the poor wheelchair user.

What a load of bollox.

Babies can easily be put in front packs, and all prams can be folded - if the parents/caregivers can be arsed.

Peppa Pig

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What a load of bollox.
Babies can easily be put in front packs, and all prams can be folded - if the parents/caregivers can be arsed.

I wouldn't attempt to take a baby out of a pram and fold it up myself on a bus unless somebody could hold the baby. Fine in a car where you can put the baby into the car first. A parent with a buggy where the child can stand has no excuse not to fold it but a pram - come on.
You'd need to hold the baby and the changing bag and anything else you had in the pram and then fold it up and store it yourself. All the while you have passengers trying to get past you. Fair play to you if you can do it.

Dravokivich

Peppa Pig wrote: »

I wouldn't attempt to take a baby out of a pram and fold it up myself on a bus unless somebody could hold the baby. Fine in a car where you can put the baby into the car first. A parent with a buggy where the child can stand has no excuse not to fold it but a pram - come on.
You'd need to hold the baby and the changing bag and anything else you had in the pram and then fold it up and store it yourself. All the while you have passengers trying to get past you. Fair play to you if you can do it.

There are buggys designed for ease of portablity and to be taken down and put up by either pressing or pulling with a foot. Unfortunately a lot of people don't think to get these. It's what they need for using public transport, but it's not what they want.

AlekSmart

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What a load of bollox.

Babies can easily be put in front packs, and all prams can be folded - if the parents/caregivers can be arsed.

Bollox indeed Mrs O B.

The entire LowFloor issue developed in a somewhat haphazard manner,which unsurprisingly has led us to where we now are.

With "Standards" now being an accepted and integral part of every facet of Euro Life these days,it remains incredible that the Low Floor bus was allowed through without any such "Standardization" being attempted.

It is worth noting that in relation to Wheelchair bound people,the "Space" is designed to accomodate a Standard (Non Powered) Wheelchair,which explains much of the difficulties which Powered Chair users experience,particularly if the chair is fitted with leg-braces or other supports.

Equally,the use of Mobility Buggies is not catered for by the current design of Low Floor Bus and users of these should be aware that they will be refused entry.

However,it is with Childrens Buggies,that the greatest issues arise.

A Pram,in the traditional "Silver Cross" sense has no place on a low-floor bus,it is not catered for.

One way to approach this would have been for the Transport Operators/Vehicle Designers and the Buggy Manufacturers to co-operate more closely on the issue.

For example,subsidise a standard Bus Friendly Buggy,by including a Public Transport voucher or reduced rate ticket for use IF it is used.

The current trend is simply unsustainable,as it parallels Motor Car design...take an original Austin Mini,Ford Fiesta,Opel Corsa,VW Polo or any model and compare them with the 2013 version and you will see little except Bloat in every sense...Longer,Wider,Taller,Heavier and generally making a greater Statement...

Oddly enough,the only ingredient that has remained unchanged is ...the Babby....same general design,same stuff goin in....and same stuff comin out,all at the same times.

The dimensions of Buggies acceptable on Public Transport needs to be Clearly Stated and publicised asap....Once this is done it allows those who wish to avail of the facility to make their preparations...those who won't or can't for whatever reason will have to make alternative arrangements.

One thing should be made crystal-clear and that under NO circumstances will a person be allowed to start folding a Buggy On Board a Moving Bus.

What does occur,and far too regularly,is for a person to fold a buggy due to the space being occupied,then some stops later,the Space Occupier makes to get off,prompting a flurry of frenzied unfolding by the second user in order to get that space before another boarding Buggier lays claim to it.

I regularly have to take action to prevent this lunacy,not only to protect the infants concerned from their selfish lunatic parents,but to preserve my own accident free status also.

The entire Low-Floor issue unfolds on a daily basis,with every day bringing undreamed of highs and lows in the behaviour of human beings.....:)

Victor

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What a load of bollox.

Babies can easily be put in front packs, and all prams can be folded - if the parents/caregivers can be arsed.

You might tone it down a bit.

Moderator

Conway635

AlekSmart wrote: »

The dimensions of Buggies acceptable on Public Transport needs to be Clearly Stated and publicised asap....Once this is done it allows those who wish to avail of the facility to make their preparations...those who won't or can't for whatever reason will have to make alternative arrangements.

Just for a moment there Alek, I had a mental vision of you as a sort of "Ryanair" bus driver, complete with a little measuring device that people must fit their buggys into to be allowed to board . . . and only one bag of shopping allowed :-)

Sorry, we can get back to the serious discussion now.

C635

Mrs OBumble

Peppa Pig wrote: »

I wouldn't attempt to take a baby out of a pram and fold it up myself on a bus unless somebody could hold the baby. Fine in a car where you can put the baby into the car first. A parent with a buggy where the child can stand has no excuse not to fold it but a pram - come on.
You'd need to hold the baby and the changing bag and anything else you had in the pram and then fold it up and store it yourself. All the while you have passengers trying to get past you. Fair play to you if you can do it.

My mother, and many other women of her generation, did it. And prams were a good deal less lightweight then, too.

lucernarian

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

My mother, and many other women of her generation, did it. And prams were a good deal less lightweight then, too.

Why don't you read what I said in my earlier comments? I didn't say that people couldn't fold their buggies - I tried to explain that not every situation that arises with accessible buses is not so black-and-white... What do you propose happens if there's a number of kids involved and shopping and baby supplies to be taken into consideration too? Is it so controversial to at least recognise that it is difficult and deserves consideration, even if wheelchair users ought to be the priority in all circumstances?

AlekSmart wrote:

Bollox indeed Mrs O B.

Should we avoid all discussion about the issue of mobility-limited passengers and tell each other it's just lazy parents and bus specifications that cause this problem? If you do encounter this on a regular basis in the job and you get the annual safety award thing from BAC too, then common sense can inform you and everyone else what's needed. Perhaps a simple legal underpinning of keeping the space explicitly free for mobility-impaired users? Perhaps those with more than one kid who cannot walk could be included in this. The latter part is a topical suggestion, nothing more

AlekSmart

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Should we avoid all discussion about the issue of mobility-limited passengers and tell each other it's just lazy parents and bus specifications that cause this problem? If you do encounter this on a regular basis in the job and you get the annual safety award thing from BAC too, then common sense can inform you and everyone else what's needed. Perhaps a simple legal underpinning of keeping the space explicitly free for mobility-impaired users? Perhaps those with more than one kid who cannot walk could be included in this. The latter part is a topical suggestion, nothing more

Well said T_B_C,thankfully common sense does indeed inform much of my own attitude towards such situations.

There's little chance of thse discussions being limited either,as it's looking like more time and energy will need to be diverted into dealing with the increasingly strident discommoded folks.

Mind you,It's not safety-award driven,but rather more a personal issue of wishing to keep my own slate clean whilst performing my job as efficiently as possible for everybody.

I would agree that a simple Legal review of the ESA 2000's disability access provisions would remove much of the ambiguity currently existing,but I consider that such a review is extremely unlikely ever to occur.

The reality is a significant element of what we generally regard as Irishness,revolves around never taking too clearly defined a position on anything,lest it be used against us at some point.

At the end of the day,any mass market service or product has to be viable to as great a cross-section of consumer as possible,therefore there will always be situations and occasions when somebody's expectations won't be met...that is life.

markpb

Dravokivich wrote: »

There are buggys designed for ease of portablity and to be taken down and put up by either pressing or pulling with a foot. Unfortunately a lot of people don't think to get these. It's what they need for using public transport, but it's not what they want.

And that's where you're slightly mistaken, its nothing to do with what they want. A buggy can fold down quickly and easily so it takes up very little space but a pram cannot. Prams are built with younger children and their undeveloped and weaker spines in mind. They are bigger, have a more reinforced back and cannot fold up as easily or into the same small space. Indeed, many cannot fold up without being split into several pieces.

Don't get me wrong, I would never and have never been the reason why a disabled person would be denied access to a bus but the collective handwringing about how people are ignorant and/or lazy and how parents were made of sterner stuff back in the day is uninformed rubbish.

Maybe I was wrong, it is related to what parents want - they want an infant with a properly shapen spine. The fiends.

cdebru

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

That's a good point. Perhaps not *quite* a fair comparison but I agree with the sentiment. Although again it sidesteps the unfortunate circumstances where a parent with young twins has to use the bus. A rare issue when those parents and a wheelchair user should meet but one that ought to be accounted for all the same. And I don't remember parents "choosing" to have twins etc.

No it should be straight forward no ifs,buts or maybes, anyone in a wheelchair should get priority. Otherwise you get into nonsense expecting drivers to check childs age to see if they are over or under a cut off, or is the parent travelling alone, are they really twins. Open to abuse and difficult to police.

Yeah it's hard travelling with young children, but it is much harder trying to get around in a wheelchair end of story.

cdebru

markpb wrote: »

And that's where you're slightly mistaken, its nothing to do with what they want. A buggy can fold down quickly and easily so it takes up very little space but a pram cannot. Prams are built with younger children and their undeveloped and weaker spines in mind. They are bigger, have a more reinforced back and cannot fold up as easily or into the same small space. Indeed, many cannot fold up without being split into several pieces.

Don't get me wrong, I would never and have never been the reason why a disabled person would be denied access to a bus but the collective handwringing about how people are ignorant and/or lazy and how parents were made of sterner stuff back in the day is uninformed rubbish.

Maybe I was wrong, it is related to what parents want - they want an infant with a properly shapen spine. The fiends.

If you are planning on using a bus then you should not bring a pram that can not be easily folded, and you should actually learn how to fold it before you leave the house, rather than spend 10 minutes kicking and pulling at it when you get on the bus.

Unfortunately some people are lazy and ignorant, and don't give a toss about anyone but themselves, if you believe otherwise i'm afraid it is yourself that is uninformed in this case.

markpb

cdebru wrote: »

If you are planning on using a bus then you should not bring a pram that can not be easily folded, and you should actually learn how to fold it before you leave the house, rather than spend 10 minutes kicking and pulling at it when you get on the bus.

Unfortunately some people are lazy and ignorant, and don't give a toss about anyone but themselves, if you believe otherwise i'm afraid it is yourself that is uninformed in this case.

You're still missing my point. Proper prams split in two and then fold up. It's not possible for a single person to hold a baby, separate the chair from the pram (which usually requires to hands) and then use two hands to fold the pram.

You could say that those people should be prepared to exit the bus if required (and I wouldn't entirely disagree with you) or even that DB ban them from travelling altogether (with the resultant PR problems) but blaming them for not having the six hands required to fold a pram or because they own a pram which is medically recommended for a baby (not a toddler) is not the solution and shows a lack of understanding of the very problem you're (not you specifically) discussing.

Gatling

Peppa Pig wrote: »

I wouldn't attempt to take a baby out of a pram and fold it up myself on a bus unless somebody could hold the baby. Fine in a car where you can put the baby into the car first. A parent with a buggy where the child can stand has no excuse not to fold it but a pram - come on.
You'd need to hold the baby and the changing bag and anything else you had in the pram and then fold it up and store it yourself. All the while you have passengers trying to get past you. Fair play to you if you can do it.

Some of us do this on a daily basis

Gatling

markpb wrote: »

You're still missing my point. Proper prams split in two and then fold up. It's not possible for a single person to hold a baby, separate the chair from the pram (which usually requires to hands) and then use two hands to fold the pram.

You could say that those people should be prepared to exit the bus if required (and I wouldn't entirely disagree with you) or even that DB ban them from travelling altogether (with the resultant PR problems) but blaming them for not having the six hands required to fold a pram or because they own a pram which is medically recommended for a baby (not a toddler) is not the solution and shows a lack of understanding of the very problem you're (not you specifically) discussing.

Medically recommend buggy is that what the sales person said ,

People buy big buggys to show off plain and simple keeping up with the Jones the typical Irish way oh my big buggy cost this much and my big buggy cost that,

If I'm alone using a buggy when using a bus and I have to fold down ,easy baby out ask the nearest person to hold the baby for one sec buggy gets folded down changing gear and feeds are in a back pack ,plan ahead simple ,take baby back from kind stranger sit down and enjoy the bus ride

lucernarian

cdebru wrote: »

No it should be straight forward no ifs,buts or maybes, anyone in a wheelchair should get priority. Otherwise you get into nonsense expecting drivers to check childs age to see if they are over or under a cut off, or is the parent travelling alone, are they really twins. Open to abuse and difficult to police.

Yeah it's hard travelling with young children, but it is much harder trying to get around in a wheelchair end of story.

Wishing the world was nice and straightforward doesn't make it so. Perhaps you should read over earlier posts, the law needs to be changed.

Gatling wrote:

People buy big buggys to show off plain and simple keeping up with the Jones the typical Irish way oh my big buggy cost this much and my big buggy cost that,

If I'm alone using a buggy when using a bus and I have to fold down ,easy baby out ask the nearest person to hold the baby for one sec buggy gets folded down changing gear and feeds are in a back pack ,plan ahead simple ,take baby back from kind stranger sit down and enjoy the bus ride

If I may say so, you're still missing the point.

cdebru

Nah you are missing the point, get a buggy/pram that is suitable for bringing on public transport. Expect that you will have to fold it and be prepared and able to do that.

Don't expect the system to revolve around your choice of buggy/pram.

Simple.

markpb wrote: »

You're still missing my point. Proper prams split in two and then fold up. It's not possible for a single person to hold a baby, separate the chair from the pram (which usually requires to hands) and then use two hands to fold the pram.

You could say that those people should be prepared to exit the bus if required (and I wouldn't entirely disagree with you) or even that DB ban them from travelling altogether (with the resultant PR problems) but blaming them for not having the six hands required to fold a pram or because they own a pram which is medically recommended for a baby (not a toddler) is not the solution and shows a lack of understanding of the very problem you're (not you specifically) discussing.

cdebru

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Wishing the world was nice and straightforward doesn't make it so. Perhaps you should read over earlier posts, the law needs to be changed.

Eh i was one of those that pointed out it was a problem with the law not a problem with DB rules.

Try reading what i posted not what you think i posted.

Thanks

Solair

The only time I've seen an issue was where a bus driver insisted an elderly relative of mine took a seat upstairs.

She can't climb stairs as has serious mobility issues which are not immediately obvious.

He got really "stroppy" with her and she went upstairs! The result was that she was unable to get back down again and needed assistance of other passengers.

I think in general people need to be a bit more aware of disabilities and older passengers and maybe even give up a downstairs seat if you see a person having difficulty.

The result of that experience was that my relative stopped using public transport entirely.

Passengers (including buggy users) and drivers need to be a bit more acutely aware that disabled spaces / accessible seats are there for people who really badly need them.

wolfpawnat

I have a four year old and am pregnant with no.2. I use the bus and the luas quite frequently. I ALWAYS fold my buggy if required, always have, and always without even having to be asked. I remember on the no7 one day a driver was telling a motorized wheelchair user he couldn't take them because I was on with a buggy. As I was sitting with my back to the door I didn't see at first, but when I looked around and saw it was not a buggy but a wheelchair, I told him give me a moment and I would get out of the way. I would die of guilt knowing I left a wheelchair user waiting a min of another 20min for a bus for no good reason. The one thing I would say, is that doing this can take a moment, 2 minutes at a max. (I keep everything in bags so not to fumble with the buggy) But with a young child even to lift the buggy onto the space rack at the front, you need 2 hands. What is a person to do with a small baby when doing this? Very few would give a parent a hand, and even fewer bus drivers wait until the parent has it done before taking off to the next stop.

Now never would I say the whole service should be altered to suit one person, but this idea of "screw you, you decided to have kids" is BS too. One person said how back in their mothers day they got on with it. Yes they did, but people had common decency back then too and would offer you a hand, a seldom thought of act these days. Those of you complaining about people trying to deal with kids and folding buggies, offer a hand to lift it onto the rack or take the child on the seat next to you for a moment, rather than huff in your chair and make sarky comments on an online forum. It will benefit everyone in the long run. Oh and the able bodied young people who take up seats downstairs when elderly, heavily pregnant and very young (3-7 year olds) need them should be ashamed of themselves!

The rules on the bus are "This is a priority area for a disabled user OR an occupied buggy" To me, I would interpret this as "if there is no wheelchair user, then it may be used by a buggy" I hate how people leave the buggy up and take the child out, you can't have both, either keep it in their or fold, and if a wheelchair user comes along, be prepared to fold. Many people feel they should be entitled to keep their buggy up no matter what. I remember when my son was just born, I kept the carseat option in my buggy so I could just fold the bottom half if needed. A woman with a three year old assumed I would move because "her guy needed a nap." In a buggy situation, first come first served, in a wheelchair one, MOVE!

lucernarian

cdebru wrote: »

Eh i was one of those that pointed out it was a problem with the law not a problem with DB rules.

Try reading what i posted not what you think i posted.

Thanks

You're welcome:)

I should have elaborated on my post more, the law needs to be changed but not in a way that you envisage (which is myopic IMO). There's much more to it than "the bad parent who won't fold buggy" vs "wheelchair-bound users". If you had a read through the thread you'd see this was not a straightforward matter and black-and-white rhetoric is not going to change that.

Also, some of the moralistic arguments are a little stupid. Do we start calling into question the exact reasons why people are mobility-impaired before deciding on who gets the wheelchair space? Like, the fella who was paralysed in a car accident because he drunk-drove is somehow possibly less deserving than a single mother with a newborn in a pram? That kind of conversation gets us nowhere. It's not much to recognise that on a limited number of occasions, parents (i.e. those bringing multiple infants under 2 years of age) might also be given priority over other parents with the one kid for instance. It's only common sense. We've seen in this thread that RATP in Paris have a hierarchy of priority for those spaces...

monument

All posters are aware that newborn babies should sleep completely flat until around 6 months?

cdebru wrote: »

Don't expect the system to revolve around your choice of buggy/pram.

Simple.

It's a political goal to get more people to use public transport and for that to happen public transport has to suit more people. Those people include people with carrycots for small babies.

Simple.

Solair wrote: »

The only time I've seen an issue was where a bus driver insisted an elderly relative of mine took a seat upstairs.

She can't climb stairs as has serious mobility issues which are not immediately obvious.

He got really "stroppy" with her and she went upstairs! The result was that she was unable to get back down again and needed assistance of other passengers.

I think in general people need to be a bit more aware of disabilities and older passengers and maybe even give up a downstairs seat if you see a person having difficulty.

The result of that experience was that my relative stopped using public transport entirely.

Passengers (including buggy users) and drivers need to be a bit more acutely aware that disabled spaces / accessible seats are there for people who really badly need them.

Surely your points that things are not immediately obvious extends to everybody and not just people like your relative?

How are you so sure that some of "buggy users" are not the "people who really badly need them"?

People with babies can't have disabilities or medial conditions?

wolfpawnat

monument wrote: »

All posters are aware that newborn babies should sleep completely flat until around 6 months?

From what I have seen on a few thread, the attitude is "children are irritating and since they don't pay, they should not be on public transport" or else "charge a fortune to their parents because they occasionally irritate others"

monument wrote: »

It's a political goal to get more people to use public transport and for that to happen public transport has to suit more people. Those people include people with carrycots for small babies.

That irks me, we are all told, reduce traffic, prevent unnecessary congestion, take the bus/DART/Luas, when you do, if you inconvenience others in any way, they are saying you should not be allowed on any of the above. Sure, there are those who bítch about wheelchair users making them have to get out of the disability spot with their shopping.

wolfpawnat

Solair wrote: »

The only time I've seen an issue was where a bus driver insisted an elderly relative of mine took a seat upstairs.

She can't climb stairs as has serious mobility issues which are not immediately obvious.

He got really "stroppy" with her and she went upstairs! The result was that she was unable to get back down again and needed assistance of other passengers.

I think in general people need to be a bit more aware of disabilities and older passengers and maybe even give up a downstairs seat if you see a person having difficulty.

The result of that experience was that my relative stopped using public transport entirely.

Passengers (including buggy users) and drivers need to be a bit more acutely aware that disabled spaces / accessible seats are there for people who really badly need them.

I was on a bus not too long ago, no one downstairs made room for my 4 year old to sit down, I am over 6 months pregnant but I am thankfully not suffering any major negative side effects so I can stand easily. So I had to walk my son up the steps of a moving bus, when I came back down there were older people standing everywhere. And students sitting on their lazy arses when there was seats available upstairs. Older people with mobility issues standing and young people sitting. I heard a woman ask the driver to tell people to go upstairs and give the seats up, he wouldn't!

If I were the driver I would stop the bus until they got up. Disabled and elderly first is the rule, people these days can be so fúcking inconsiderate. And it wasn't just student aged people! A well able 40 year old is as big a culprit in my eyes.

When I used sit on the chair at the disability spot with the buggy, I always offered it to someone if they needed it, but it is not a secure seat and many don't want a baby next to them so they decline, hardly the parents fault.

The first set of seats on either side downstairs are specifically for disabled and elderly, if they are taken up with people in that category, then the onus should be on people to relinquish the next few seats for them too.

AlekSmart

wolfpawnat wrote: »

......So I had to walk my son up the steps of a moving bus, when I came back down there were older people standing everywhere. And students sitting on their lazy arses when there was seats available upstairs. Older people with mobility issues standing and young people sitting. I heard a woman ask the driver to tell people to go upstairs and give the seats up, he wouldn't!

Oh dear,wolfpawnat......this willl not end well...:D

I take your point fully,and further,I believe it is the job of the Busdriver to actively manage the loading.

I can only speak for myself,but I will not countenance people boarding my bus at peak-times and immediately clamping themselves to the Luggage Pen,thereby obstructing everybody else's use of the (Public) service.

I would suggest that effective use of the P/A system is not quite as highly regarded in Driver Training terms as it should be.

wolfpawnat

AlekSmart wrote: »

Oh dear,wolfpawnat......this willl not end well...:D

I take your point fully,and further,I believe it is the job of the Busdriver to actively manage the loading.

I can only speak for myself,but I will not countenance people boarding my bus at peak-times and immediately clamping themselves to the Luggage Pen,thereby obstructing everybody else's use of the (Public) service.

I would suggest that effective use of the P/A system is not quite as highly regarded in Driver Training terms as it should be.

Well they were, I got off with UCD with them, so I knew they were students, not my fault if a few don't like when their shítty behaviour is called out!

I have noticed with DB, some drivers are amazing, good, kind people, others are just a*holes, like in every sector of society really. But those elderly people were in danger of falling over and taking up the whole area to the front of the bus so no one could pass them, all because people would not go upstairs. It really annoys me!!:mad: The bus driver would surely get given out to if there was an incident and that came out, at the very least I would assume he would be asked to explain why he didn't even shout something back to the passengers?

AlekSmart

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Well they were, I got off with UCD with them, so I knew they were students, not my fault if a few don't like when their shítty behaviour is called out!

I have noticed with DB, some drivers are amazing, good, kind people, others are just a*holes, like in every sector of society really. But those elderly people were in danger of falling over and taking up the whole area to the front of the bus so no one could pass them, all because people would not go upstairs. It really annoys me!!:mad: The bus driver would surely get given out to if there was an incident and that came out, at the very least I would assume he would be asked to explain why he didn't even shout something back to the passengers?

No Wolfpawnat,there'd be no giving out to scenario in that case.

However,should the Busdriver have robustly requested the able-bodies sitters to take available seating upstairs in order to facilitate the elderly I could well envisage the folowing...(NB some personal experience at play here )

One or other of the able-bodied would type a closely-spaced foolscap complaint that they were abused by the Busdriver and that,since they suffer from Vertigo (Insert any suitable disability),they cannot climb stairs at all...

OR....

One of the elderly passengers would compile an equally closely typed complaint to the effect that since their Hip replacement they are unable to sit on certain types of seat..etc etc...

In both such cases the BAC Manager would initiate a full grievance & disciplinary interview with the Driver as part of the investigation...

Then he/she would give out to the Driver for getting too involved with these passengers.

With up to 100 souls on board a Peak-Time Bus Service,I'm kinda unsure of what qualification a Busdriver now requires,as it's apparent a Driving Licence and Experience is no longer enough.

I use a simple benchmark....

A passenger waiting on a Bus is concerned about the delay and whether everybody at the Stop will get on.
Then,whilst counting out their coinage,they will chide the Driver on this dreadful service etc etc,totally oblivious to the queue now extending behind them,whose equally exasperated members I can see very clearly..;)

That same Passenger,once aboard,wants the Driver to get a bloody move on and not be faffing about at stops with dozy passengers asking silly questions......:mad:

What is the best course of action for Busdrivers ?

A course in effective Public Speaking and crowd-control.

Assertivness for Busdrivers,Vol's 1,2 & 3 ?

Getting stuck-in and hoping some common-sense will prevail ?


I'm not sure at all,but I will tell you what the safest course of actions is.....

Don't get involved !!!

wolfpawnat

AlekSmart wrote: »

What is the best course of action for Busdrivers ?

A course in effective Public Speaking and crowd-control.

Assertivness for Busdrivers,Vol's 1,2 & 3 ?

Getting stuck-in and hoping some common-sense will prevail ?


I'm not sure at all,but I will tell you what the safest course of actions is.....

Don't get involved !!!

It really is a no win situation for them is it.

AlekSmart

wolfpawnat wrote: »

It really is a no win situation for them is it.

It can be.

A very big part of the issue centres on ourselves as a culture,we simply are not amenable in any way to guidance,instruction,suggestion and particularly INSTRUCTION :eek:

We are kinda like a grumpier version of the Spanish or Italians.

However that should not prevent us from at least attempting to put a bit of shape on things.

Just as an observational aside,I never cease to be amazed at the willingness and ability of Filipino's to make best use of Public Transport,and usually with an easy smile and hello.....:)

doubletrouble?

right lets call a spade a spade here.

Gatling wrote: »

easy baby out ask the nearest person to hold the baby for one sec buggy gets folded down changing gear and feeds are in a back pack ,plan ahead simple ,take baby back from kind stranger sit down and enjoy the bus ride

i've just highlighted the most important word here.
"stranger"
most parents with young kids of buggy going use whether it's a father or a mother will not give their baby/child to a complete stranger to hold. for one you dont know who "the stranger" is. then you have the other aspect of anything can happen is seconds. what if the stranger drops the baby, what if!!!. there are so many what if's.
thanks but no thanks.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The rules on the bus are "This is a priority area for a disabled user OR an occupied buggy" To me, I would interpret this as "if there is no wheelchair user, then it may be used by a buggy"

well said wolf. they are in deed the rules. one or the other. i'll also add.
a bus driver can request that the buggy be folded if a wheelchair user is waiting to board.
under no circumstances can a driver force someone to fold their occupied buggy if a wheel chair user wishes to boards the bus.
i've have seen all sides of this argument up front. while i do sympathise with a wheel chair user and i really do ,you also have to look at it from a parents point of view.
theres no point in coming on this thread and saying "what if" i had a buggy etc. my point is unless you have actual experience as a parent trying to board a bus then you dont know what it's really like to be in that situation.
i used to be like alot posters here "well if i had!!!!",but in reality i hadn't, it's only when the twins came along that my view has changed full circle.
nowadays i will treat both equally.

AlekSmart

doubletrouble? wrote: »

right lets call a spade a spade here.

i've just highlighted the most important word here.
"stranger"
most parents with young kids of buggy going use whether it's a father or a mother will not give their baby/child to a complete stranger to hold. for one you dont know who "the stranger" is. then you have the other aspect of anything can happen is seconds. what if the stranger drops the baby, what if!!!. there are so many what if's.
thanks but no thanks.

well said wolf. they are in deed the rules. one or the other. i'll also add.
a bus driver can request that the buggy be folded if a wheelchair user is waiting to board.
under no circumstances can a driver force someone to fold their occupied buggy if a wheel chair user wishes to boards the bus.
i've have seen all sides of this argument up front. while i do sympathise with a wheel chair user and i really do ,you also have to look at it from a parents point of view.
theres no point in coming on this thread and saying "what if" i had a buggy etc. my point is unless you have actual experience as a parent trying to board a bus then you dont know what it's really like to be in that situation.
i used to be like alot posters here "well if i had!!!!",but in reality i hadn't, it's only when the twins came along that my view has changed full circle.
nowadays i will treat both equally.

I should imagine that this posters experience and viewpoint explains exactly why the Equality Commissioner's adjudication emerged as it did....Solomon Himself would have struggled to solve this to everybodys satisfaction...:)