Woman refused entry to low floor bus with buggy

Conway635

Here is the article on how the problem has arisen (and is being handled) on London buses by TFL.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/buggies-on-buses-must-move-for-wheelchairs-8339677.html

At least they are informing passengers of what the position is - we could do with being a bit more proactive in Dublin.

C635

corktina

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

What about those who have prams? I accept that they can use alternative carriers or pouches but nonetheless a pram is probably a vital piece of equipment for parents with newborns and I would hope some accommodation could be made for them. I'm not talking about the "vast majority" here. Even if such pram users are not regularly encountered, should they also be kicked off the bus if a wheelchair user needs to use it? I don't have any strong feelings on this I should add.

they should equip themselves properly with a folding carrier and a pouch

lucernarian

corktina wrote: »

they should equip themselves properly with a folding carrier and a pouch

Don't you think that some kind of priority carriage could be allowed for those users, especially in the case of those carrying two babies (like twins)?

corktina

aa bus to themselves you mean?

lucernarian

corktina wrote: »

aa bus to themselves you mean?

Mental Mickey

corktina wrote: »

did she get off?

She did yeah, sorry!!!

K.Flyer

Saw a woman getting onto a bus with a large buggy at Santry Ave the other day. But the bus driver was letting her on without a problem, which was strange, because it was loaded high with flat packs from the nearby IKEA!!

AlekSmart

Mental Mickey wrote: »

I have been in this situation before myself. I was waiting to board a bus(I'm a wheelchair user), to head into town. Bus driver lowered the ramp to allow me gain access. However, there was a woman with 2 children on board - one was in a buggy. Bus driver asked said woman to fold buggy as there was a wheelchair user waiting to board. The woman refused point blank to do as requested, so the driver had no option but to request that she got off the bus.

The reality,Mental Mickey,is that the Busdriver was incorrect in requesting that Lady to leave the bus.

The Busdriver has no legal authority,in this case,to make that request,which could well have proved a costly one should the lady have decided to pursue the matter further.

In this case it is YOU,Mental Mickey who should have been advised to wait for another bus.

The standing instructions to Busdrivers,in this situation are Crystal Clear.

The Driver must be heard to request that the buggy be folded and stowed to allow the Wheelchair user access...However,should the person decline to fold and stow the buggy,the Driver cannot take any further action.

In these cases the Busdriver must contact Central Control,advising the controller of the situation and location to allow the controller ascertain the location of other buses and make whatever adjustments are necessary to address the issue.

As Conway 635 points out,it is not a very intelligent interpretation of any Disabled Priority policy,as in many ways it actively discriminates against the disabled it purports to facilitate.

However,it is a matter of poor drafting and interpretation of legislation,rather than any Company Policy or otherwise.

murphaph

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

What about those who have prams? I accept that they can use alternative carriers or pouches but nonetheless a pram is probably a vital piece of equipment for parents with newborns and I would hope some accommodation could be made for them. I'm not talking about the "vast majority" here. Even if such pram users are not regularly encountered, should they also be kicked off the bus if a wheelchair user needs to use it? I don't have any strong feelings on this I should add.

We have a newborn and his pram folds down. Not like a buggy but enough to free up a wheelchair space. It would never cross our minds to allow our pram to disenfranchise a disabled person like that.

Having said that, I think Dublin buses are extraordinarily poorly designed from a usability perspective. Berlin buses have space for a wheelchair and 3 unfolded buggies. The middle doors also line up with this space and buggy users and wheelchair passengers board and alight through the middle doors.

This goes for both articulated and double decker units here in Berlin.

HydeRoad

I think passengers should be given full entitlement to bring one unfolded buggy on board the bus.

And charged a flat €5 fare for the privelege.

Mental Mickey

murphaph wrote: »

We have a newborn and his pram folds down. Not like a buggy but enough to free up a wheelchair space. It would never cross our minds to allow our pram to disenfranchise a disabled person like that.

Having said that, I think Dublin buses are extraordinarily poorly designed from a usability perspective. Berlin buses have space for a wheelchair and 3 unfolded buggies. The middle doors also line up with this space and buggy users and wheelchair passengers board and alight through the middle doors.

This goes for both articulated and double decker units here in Berlin.

I think this is the same with some of the London buses too

Uriel.

how difficult would it be for DB (or any other similar company) to introduce a bye law/regulation/term of use stating that the wheelchair space is designed for wheelchair users as a priority. Pram/Buggy users can make use of that space as long as not required by a wheelchair user. Then should a wheelchair user come to need the space the owner of the pram/buggy has a choice - fold the pram and clear the space or get off the bus.

Stick a sign on the bus to that effect and there you go. A clear legal situation and IMO the correct priority being given to the wheelchair user.

lucernarian

murphaph wrote: »

We have a newborn and his pram folds down. Not like a buggy but enough to free up a wheelchair space. It would never cross our minds to allow our pram to disenfranchise a disabled person like that.

Having said that, I think Dublin buses are extraordinarily poorly designed from a usability perspective. Berlin buses have space for a wheelchair and 3 unfolded buggies. The middle doors also line up with this space and buggy users and wheelchair passengers board and alight through the middle doors.

This goes for both articulated and double decker units here in Berlin.

If you had two newborns, would you feel the same way? I think I agree with the broad principle here, that the wheelchair user has priority but clearly some situations involving parents and prams are far more difficult to accommodate for than others. If this priority is to be set in stone legally in the future (with by-laws or with Oireachtas legislation), I feel it should accomodate every usage scenario.

Of course, buses specced with greater floor area kept for wheelchairs AND babies under 6 months old would be an ideal outcome but there's no signs of that happening for a long time.

Can anyone see a time when Dublin Bus would be obliged to get much more accessible buses of the kind that have been linked to in this thread? They seem to be very reluctant to deal with new suppliers and seem to settle on conservative solutions for the sake of continuity. This is advantageous for maintenance but not so if the most familiar bus with the most interchangeable parts also happens to be more unreliable.

cdebru

If only things in Ireland were that simple, equality authority I believe says NO, a person with a buggy has a mobility impairment and is entitled to the space on a first come first served basis. The driver can ask the person to fold it and allow the wheelchair user to travel, that is all.

Not up to DB or any other company, its the law in this country that is the problem.

Uriel. wrote: »

how difficult would it be for DB (or any other similar company) to introduce a bye law/regulation/term of use stating that the wheelchair space is designed for wheelchair users as a priority. Pram/Buggy users can make use of that space as long as not required by a wheelchair user. Then should a wheelchair user come to need the space the owner of the pram/buggy has a choice - fold the pram and clear the space or get off the bus.

Stick a sign on the bus to that effect and there you go. A clear legal situation and IMO the correct priority being given to the wheelchair user.

cdebru

Different country different law, this country apparently views people pushing a buggy as equally disabled as a wheelchair user, so you cant discriminate against people with buggies in favour of anyone else including wheelchair users.

Conway635 wrote: »

Here is the article on how the problem has arisen (and is being handled) on London buses by TFL.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/buggies-on-buses-must-move-for-wheelchairs-8339677.html

At least they are informing passengers of what the position is - we could do with being a bit more proactive in Dublin.

C635

Conway635

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Can anyone see a time when Dublin Bus would be obliged to get much more accessible buses of the kind that have been linked to in this thread? They seem to be very reluctant to deal with new suppliers and seem to settle on conservative solutions for the sake of continuity. This is advantageous for maintenance but not so if the most familiar bus with the most interchangeable parts also happens to be more unreliable.

Actually, their choice of suppliers is not really the issue, as any body-design from all of the manufacturers can be customised in any way the company wants - hence the Airlink subtype, with lots of racking etc.

If they wanted to have extra buggy spaces, they can, but in their mind it is a question of loss of seating capacity.

There were some early lowfloor designs (in London) which had room for multiple buggys/wheelchairs, but which only had 11 seats downstairs!

DB have trialled a "double" space on a few of their latest buses, this seems to be the norm in London also now on new buses.

C635

foggy_lad

cdebru wrote: »

If only things in Ireland were that simple, equality authority I believe says NO, a person with a buggy has a mobility impairment and is entitled to the space on a first come first served basis. The driver can ask the person to fold it and allow the wheelchair user to travel, that is all.

Not up to DB or any other company, its the law in this country that is the problem.

Nobody is saying that the person with a buggy has any impairment but only that they be treated equally just as wheelchair users must be treated equally as much as is practicable.

hoodwinked

Correct me if im wrong but i think bus eireann buses (in cork anyway) have a blue sign on those seats saying "please give up this seat if an elderly or disabled person needs it"

i was always under the impression it was fine to use it with a buggy but if a wheelchair user came on board i'd have to move or fold it


but then they also had space for 2 or 3 buggies to be unfolded and not blocking anything.

Uriel.

cdebru wrote: »

If only things in Ireland were that simple, equality authority I believe says NO, a person with a buggy has a mobility impairment and is entitled to the space on a first come first served basis. The driver can ask the person to fold it and allow the wheelchair user to travel, that is all.

Not up to DB or any other company, its the law in this country that is the problem.

It shouldn't really be the case though I would have thought, as the suggestion is not that buggy users can't use the space, but that priority use goes to wheelchair users.

Like for example in Statute the State has priority in terms of debt - i.e. the state gets its money before any other creditor. That's been held in the courts as fine (Constitutional), but it might not necessarily = equality.

lucernarian

Conway635 wrote: »

Actually, their choice of suppliers is not really the issue, as any body-design from all of the manufacturers can be customised in any way the company wants - hence the Airlink subtype, with lots of racking etc.

If they wanted to have extra buggy spaces, they can, but in their mind it is a question of loss of seating capacity.

There were some early lowfloor designs (in London) which had room for multiple buggys/wheelchairs, but which only had 11 seats downstairs!

DB have trialled a "double" space on a few of their latest buses, this seems to be the norm in London also now on new buses.

C635

The Airlink subtype is not a major departure from the prevailing interior and bodywork seen as per most VGs and AVs. The buses I've used throughout Europe (perhaps less so in the UK) are a big departure from Dublin Bus coaches, with triple doors and a more extensive use of single-decked buses etc. I would expect that the pretty-much continuous use of Alexander and Wright over the past 20 years had a bearing on this?

Could there be a return to articulated buses of a more reliable type than the ones which used to operate on the 4s and 10s a few years ago?

murphaph

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

The Airlink subtype is not a major departure from the prevailing interior and bodywork seen as per most VGs and AVs. The buses I've used throughout Europe (perhaps less so in the UK) are a big departure from Dublin Bus coaches, with triple doors and a more extensive use of single-decked buses etc. I would expect that the pretty-much continuous use of Alexander and Wright over the past 20 years had a bearing on this?

Could there be a return to articulated buses of a more reliable type than the ones which used to operate on the 4s and 10s a few years ago?

Artics should definitely be used in Dublin BUT you have to dedicate them to routes to which they are suitable. This does impose an operational restriction on the operator, but I think it can be overcome with decent resource planning.

Even without artics, the double decker we know in Ireland/Britain with its single door at the front for boarding/alighting is a disaster area for dwell times and passenger comfort. A Berlin double decker has 3 sets of doors and 2 staircases. You board at the front and either go straight up the stairs (located immediately behind driver) or stay in the lower saloon. You exit through the centre or rear doors. The rear doors line up with the rear staircase which is where passengers in the upper saloon are supposed to alight via. It's a stream of movement from front to rear of the vehicle, whether upper or lower saloon.

Centre doors can be used for boarding by pram/buggy/wheelchair users who park up directly opposite these doors.

lucernarian

murphaph wrote: »

Even without artics, the double decker we know in Ireland/Britain with its single door at the front for boarding/alighting is a disaster area for dwell times and passenger comfort. A Berlin double decker has 3 sets of doors and 2 staircases. You board at the front and either go straight up the stairs (located immediately behind driver) or stay in the lower saloon. You exit through the centre or rear doors. The rear doors line up with the rear staircase which is where passengers in the upper saloon are supposed to alight via. It's a stream of movement from front to rear of the vehicle, whether upper or lower saloon.

Centre doors can be used for boarding by pram/buggy/wheelchair users who park up directly opposite these doors.

The buses operated by VfB are different to what DB currently have on the road though. Different chassis and bodywork anyway. Though looking at versions of Geminis abroad, it does seem to be a flexible machine and could accommodate the kind of adaptations seen in continental Europe for example. Do they offer triaxle buses with two staircases though? I know the new Londonbus offers two staircases but then I thought they were extremely expensive purchases too.

Mental Mickey

hoodwinked wrote: »

Correct me if im wrong but i think bus eireann buses (in cork anyway) have a blue sign on those seats saying "please give up this seat if an elderly or disabled person needs it"

i was always under the impression it was fine to use it with a buggy but if a wheelchair user came on board i'd have to move or fold it


but then they also had space for 2 or 3 buggies to be unfolded and not blocking anything.

You're not wrong. On all Dublin buses, there are blue signs on the buses, on both the wheelchair space, and the single seat near the front, stating that they should be given up for people who are in need of them(wheelchair space for wheelchairs, and the single seat near the front for elderly or infirm persons.

Carawaystick

The ratp in Paris have signs explicitly listing the order of priority for seats:
Top of the list are disabled veterans
Then disabled
Then elderly
Then mothers with small children or pregnant women


You might argue the categories, but you could not argue that someone made a decision, and clearly communicated it

Uriel.

Mental Mickey wrote: »

You're not wrong. On all Dublin buses, there are blue signs on the buses, on both the wheelchair space, and the single seat near the front, stating that they should be given up for people who are in need of them(wheelchair space for wheelchairs, and the single seat near the front for elderly or infirm persons.

They should be or they HAVE to be.

Big difference.

Del2005

Carawaystick wrote: »

The ratp in Paris have signs explicitly listing the order of priority for seats:
Top of the list are disabled veterans
Then disabled
Then elderly
Then mothers with small children or pregnant women


You might argue the categories, but you could not argue that someone made a decision, and clearly communicated it

And they aren't afraid to enforce these rights, which is a shame as it should be human decency to give up seats to the more needy.

Mental Mickey

Uriel. wrote: »

They should be or they HAVE to be.

Big difference.

It roughly(cant remember the exact wording)requests that seats be given up should an elderly or disabled person need it. These signs are blue and are written in both English and Irish.

AlekSmart

Uriel. wrote: »

how difficult would it be for DB (or any other similar company) to introduce a bye law/regulation/term of use stating that the wheelchair space is designed for wheelchair users as a priority. Pram/Buggy users can make use of that space as long as not required by a wheelchair user. Then should a wheelchair user come to need the space the owner of the pram/buggy has a choice - fold the pram and clear the space or get off the bus.

Stick a sign on the bus to that effect and there you go. A clear legal situation and IMO the correct priority being given to the wheelchair user.

Not difficult at all Uriel,except perhaps finding space for yet another sign.....:)

The reality is that from 2000 to late 2009 most,if not all,Dublin Bus drivers and assorted other staff were of the opinion that all the Disabled Access,Low-Floor paraphernalia meant that the Wheelchair Space was specifically intended for a....Wheelchair.

However,that assumption proved to be somewhat mistaken,and there remains a question as to whether,if Senior Management were actually aware of the leglislative lacuna,the Company could,or should,have advised front-line Staff appropriately.

The current (typically Irish) nonsense stems from an incident on Abbey St involving a bus which was about to depart the stop with an occupied buggy on board.

A wheelchair user subsequently arrived and the Busdriver,assuming that he was acting in compliance with the Disability Access regulations,requested the Buggy's pusher to fold and stow.

The lady responded by saying she was unable/unwilling to comply,at which point the Busdriver requested her to leave the Bus in order to allow the Wheelchair user access the Wheelchair Priority space.

From a Busdrivers perspective it is a Lose/Lose situation and so it proved in this instance,as the incident soon made Liveline.

Whilst Dublin Bus representatives referred to the disabled access facilities and the appropriate trained staff,it emerged from the programme that,not surprisingly,the wording involved in the leglislation was ambiguous.

A definitive interpretation was then sought from the Equality Commissioner,who with Solomon like wisdom,decided to focus fully on the Equality issue rather than address the,by now,glaring fudge in the application of the act.

So as it currently stands we have a Fully Accessible Low-Floor Bus Fleet,with Wheelchair Specific facilities,which may..or may not be utilised by a Wheelchair Passenger depending on the humour of a non-disabled passenger who gains the benefit of the First Up-Best Dressed philosophy.

The issue is simple enough to solve.....but involves substituting words such as MUST,and INSTRUCTED rather than "Should" and "Requested" .

The actual Legal Situation as referred to by Uriel is quite clear...no ambiguity about it whatsoever...A disabled Wheelchair User has NO absolute right in Law to access a Wheelchair specific Space if that space is occupied by another passenger legally on board the Bus.

Where we go to from here is entirely up to the Legislators !

BenShermin

The majority of people "choose" to have babies and all the inconvenience that comes with that.
Nobody "chooses" to be wheelchair bound.


For me it's as simple as that, and anybody who doesn't fold their buggy/pram up to allow a wheelchair user on board is a scum bag imo, the same goes for able bodied people not giving up seats to elderly on buses etc.

cdebru

An excellent summary of the situation and how we got here.


Yeah good old joe, sorted that one out, people wringing their hands and worrying about the able bodied, and no one giving a feck about the wheelchair users.

I have often wondered why no wheelchair user has ever called joe to complain when they were left at the stop, because some ignorant slob with a child nearly ready to start school, refuses to fold the buggy they have squeezed the child into.

If any chance the law might be changed joe is the only hope, whether its magic mushrooms or head shops,or protecting the buggy pushers joe is your only man.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Not difficult at all Uriel,except perhaps finding space for yet another sign.....:)

The reality is that from 2000 to late 2009 most,if not all,Dublin Bus drivers and assorted other staff were of the opinion that all the Disabled Access,Low-Floor paraphernalia meant that the Wheelchair Space was specifically intended for a....Wheelchair.

However,that assumption proved to be somewhat mistaken,and there remains a question as to whether,if Senior Management were actually aware of the leglislative lacuna,the Company could,or should,have advised front-line Staff appropriately.

The current (typically Irish) nonsense stems from an incident on Abbey St involving a 130 which was about to depart the stop with an occupied buggy on board.

A wheelchair user subsequently arrived and the Busdriver,assuming that he was acting in compliance with the Disability Access regulations,requested the Buggy's pusher to fold and stow.

The lady responded by saying she was unable/unwilling to comply,at which point the Busdriver requested her to leave the Bus in order to allow the Wheelchair user access the Wheelchair Priority space.

From a Busdrivers perspective it is a Lose/Lose situation and so it proved in this instance,as the incident soon made Liveline.

Whilst Dublin Bus representatives referred to the disabled access facilities and the appropriate trained staff,it emerged from the programme that,not surprisingly,the wording involved in the leglislation was ambiguous.

A definitive interpretation was then sought from the Equality Commissioner,who with Solomon like wisdom,decided to focus fully on the Equality issue rather than address the,by now,glaring fudge in the application of the act.

So as it currently stands we have a Fully Accessible Low-Floor Bus Fleet,with Wheelchair Specific facilities,which may..or may not be utilised by a Wheelchair Passenger depending on the humour of a non-disabled passenger who gains the benefit of the First Up-Best Dressed philosophy.

The issue is simple enough to solve.....but involves substituting words such as MUST,and INSTRUCTED rather than "Should" and "Requested" .

The actual Legal Situation as referred to by Uriel is quite clear...no ambiguity about it whatsoever...A disabled Wheelchair User has NO absolute right in Law to access a Wheelchair specific Space if that space is occupied by another passenger legally on board the Bus.

Where we go to from here is entirely up to the Legislators !