Calls to remove illegal UVF flags in Belfast

GRMA

CALLS have been made by Alliance MLA Chris Lyttle for the First and Deputy First Minister to address the misuse of all flags and emblems


after the erection of UVF flags in East Belfast.

It is understood the flags have been erected in connection with a forthcoming parade to mark the centenary

of the formation of the UVF.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/latest-alliance-concern-at-uvf-flag-display-1-4998980


Disgraceful that the UVF are allowed to operate openly and hang their flags up in broad daylight.

The PSNI should remove these sectarian flags immediately - nationalists have already lost a lot of faith in the PSNI (see Gerry Kellys speech at SF ard fheis) over the flegs debacle and now this?

junder

The flags are not illegal, and the commerate the formation of the orginal UVF in 1913, and apparently are going to be removed after the parade on Saturday

Fratton Fred

GRMA wrote: »

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/latest-alliance-concern-at-uvf-flag-display-1-4998980


Disgraceful that the UVF are allowed to operate openly and hang their flags up in broad daylight.

The PSNI should remove these sectarian flags immediately - nationalists have already lost a lot of faith in the PSNI (see Gerry Kellys speech at SF ard fheis) over the flegs debacle and now this?

Next thing you know they'll be selling "Sniper at Large" badges to raise funds.

junder

Here is a photo of the flag in question

GRMA

junder wrote: »

The flags are not illegal, and the commerate the formation of the orginal UVF in 1913, and apparently are going to be removed after the parade on Saturday

I think you may find that they are illegal.

GRMA

The flag is clearly a UVF paramilitary flag, sticking "1913" on it doesnt make a bit of difference... who dont you tell us who the three men are on it?

GRMA

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Next thing you know they'll be selling "Sniper at Large" badges to raise funds.

If you are going to make snide comments you can at least get it right.

World of difference between selling badges at a private function and sticking flags up alongside public roads

Any opinion on the flags?

Chuck Stone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Next thing you know they'll be selling "Sniper at Large" badges to raise funds.

This is the epitome of whataboutery.

Fratton Fred

Chuck Stone wrote: »

This is the epitome of whataboutery.

Whataboutery? Highlighting double standards I think you mean.

Fratton Fred

GRMA wrote: »

If you are going to make snide comments you can at least get it right.

World of difference between selling badges at a private function and sticking flags up alongside public roads

Any opinion on the flags?

It looks to me as though it is commemorating 100 years since the founding of the Ulster Volunteers. What's wrong with that?

Lapin

The flags are being flown in predominantly loyalist East Belfast.

It would be different if they were hung to the lamposts of the Ardoyne, Turf Lodge, Andersonstown or even the City Centre.

It takes some level of deliberate outrage seeking for nationalists to be offended by flags they cannot see from their own neighbourhoods.

I'm not denying that there may be an attempt by some Loyalists to use this as an exercise in provocation, but anyone who feels provoked to the extent that they see the need to retaliate is letting themselves walk into a ready made trap.

Rise above it and it will pass.

Let the loyalists have their parades. After all, its only another demonstration in a long succession of the narrow mindedness displayed by both sides of the divide in The North.

Chuck Stone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It looks to me....

How do you think it might look to the relatives of the hundreds of innocent people murdered by the UVF for being born into the 'wrong' religion?

Fratton Fred

Chuck Stone wrote: »

How do you think it might look to the relatives of the hundreds of innocent people murdered by the UVF for being born into the 'wrong' religion?

So there are no reminders of the troubles in the north? No murals glorifying the uvf or the IRA?

Chuck Stone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So there are no reminders of the troubles in the north? No murals glorifying the uvf or the IRA?

You're answering a question with a question.

Fratton Fred

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You're answering a question with a question.

I thought it was a straight forward answer. The north is littered with symbols, rhetoric and painful memories for people, I cant see this making a huge difference, unless of course you are in Dublin and looking for something to get outraged about.

Chuck Stone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The north is littered with symbols, rhetoric and painful memories for people...

So you agree that provocative flegs and symbols, flaunted in public, that poke at painful wounds should be 'decommissioned'?

Consistency Fred. Consistency is a good quality.

junder

GRMA wrote: »

I think you may find that they are illegal.

Think you will find its not illegal, the police have already said as much last night on the news

Fratton Fred

Chuck Stone wrote: »

So you agree that provocative flegs and symbols, flaunted in public, that poke at painful wounds should be 'decommissioned'?

Consistency Fred. Consistency is a good quality.

Woah, cool the jets. These flags are supposedly there as part of the centenary celebrations, which seems pretty legit to me.

Its the north, if they put up bright pink flags with a daisy on them people would be offended.

monty_python

What would the reaction be to a parade to mark an ira date? Ira flags flying in public in belfast?

Chuck Stone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

These flags are supposedly there as part of the centenary celebrations, which seems pretty legit to me.

Bit of dissonance here, no?

The north is littered with symbols, rhetoric and painful memories for people

Do you agree that less reminders of painful memories are better? Reminders like, say, UVF flags flying in public?

T runner

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So there are no reminders of the troubles in the north? No murals glorifying the uvf or the IRA?

The murals were drawn in times past and many are of historical interest only now.

Remember 87% of loyalist killings were against Catholic civilians (non paramilitary). The UVF is simply a sectarian paramilitary organisation. The UVF flags are current manifestations of sectarianism in Loyalist culture.
It is not acceptable, nor should it be legal.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I thought it was a straight forward answer. The north is littered with symbols, rhetoric and painful memories for people, I cant see this making a huge difference, unless of course you are in Dublin and looking for something to get outraged about.

Removing sectarian flags from perimeters of areas where they are visible to many passing Catholics will presumably make a significant difference to the Catholics they are intended to intimidate?

Making sectarian flags illegal is also important in that it tells citizens that sectarianism is no longer tolerated in society. This will isolate those loyalists who still hold these sectarian views and ultimately (hopefully) contribute to loyalism redefining itself outside of sectarian grounds. We saw evidence of this in the perpetrators of violence over the flags issue being isolated in their own communities.

A few significant reasons for making those flags illegal, none for not doing so.

T runner

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Woah, cool the jets. These flags are supposedly there as part of the centenary celebrations, which seems pretty legit to me.

Its the north, if they put up bright pink flags with a daisy on them people would be offended.

If Nazi flags were put up in Jerusalem would people be offended? Yes, and rightly so.

That's how Catholics feel about UVF flags in Belfast. Clear? Please supply substantiation for your "pretty legit" centenary celebrations explaining these sectarian symbols. Should IRA flags be flown freely in Belfast to commemorate 1916? Would that be "legit" Fred?

It seems easier to give particular English posters analogies about their own country: it stops the tendency of these individuals of applying different rules for other people than they would tolerate themselves.

Chuck Stone

T runner wrote: »

This will isolate those loyalists who still hold these sectarian views and ultimately (hopefully) contribute to loyalism redefining itself outside of sectarian grounds.

As long as Loyalism defines itself by its siege mentality, sectarianism, long-passed triumphalism and long-passed dominance it's doomed. Canny Loyalists know the writing is on the wall (no pun intended) for 'jurassic' Loyalism and have made attempts to accentuate the Ulster Scots aspect of their culture in the hope of making it more accessible.

Fratton Fred

T runner wrote: »

If Nazi flags were put up in Jerusalem would people be offended? Yes, and rightly so.

That's how Catholics feel about UVF flags in Belfast. Clear? Please supply substantiation for your "pretty legit" centenary celebrations explaining these sectarian symbols. Should IRA flags be flown freely in Belfast to commemorate 1916? Would that be "legit" Fred?

It seems easier to give particular English posters analogies about their own country: it stops the tendency of these individuals of applying different rules for other people than they would tolerate themselves.

We are often told by republicans to move on, yet they commemorate their own groups at every possible opportunity, selling IRA paraphernalia at major political party conferences for example.

This is simply unionists marking a significant event in their past. Let them do it, make sure the flags are removed on Monday and carry on. It seems pretty simple to me.

gallag

Again another thread about those loyalists and flags, 7 straight nights of riots in London derry and trying to burn protestants out of their homes, more bombs foiled by the "dissidents" and two cars stopped in London derry filled with Republican guns, ammo and bombs but lets not make a thread about any of that, loyalists celebrating the formation of a detachment that fought bravely in ww1 is the thing to be disgusted by.

bmaxi

Speaking as a neutral observer I have to ask.; Do Loyalists in NI not consider the flying of the Irish Tricolour as a provocation? I remember, during the troubles, objections being raised in the Republic at what was seen as usurpation of our National flag by the Provos and that it was an insult to our country for the flag to be used at IRA funerals etc. When I travel to NI now, I see the Tricolour flying in prominent places, which are visible over a wide area.
Is this not seen now as a provocation to Loyalists?
Personally speaking, while I can understand that deep wounds take a long time to heal, it really should be a case of all or nothing. After the carry on over Christmas, I'd say the authorities will think twice before venturing down the road of removing flags

Chuck Stone

gallag wrote: »

Again another thread about those loyalists and flags, 7 straight nights of riots in London derry and trying to burn protestants out of their homes, more bombs foiled by the "dissidents" and two cars stopped in London derry filled with Republican guns, ammo and bombs

Sources?

celebrating the formation of a detachment that fought bravely in ww1

The UVF didn't fight in WWI.

karma_

Fratton Fred wrote: »

We are often told by republicans to move on, yet they commemorate their own groups at every possible opportunity, selling IRA paraphernalia at major political party conferences for example.

This is simply unionists marking a significant event in their past. Let them do it, make sure the flags are removed on Monday and carry on. It seems pretty simple to me.

As a Nordy, I firmly believe that all Flags should be taken down. Every single last one of them.

On both sides they are used for one purpose and one purpose only and that is provocation. Every day I drive through a town that flys a UVF flay ostensibly in remembrance of the 'old' UVF but that makes it no less distasteful. I'm sure if Republicans flew a flag with IRA 1916 emblazoned upon it, Unionists would be red with rage and I could understand that. Another flag which is gaining prominence these days is the Parachute Regiment flag, which is downright awful, what exactly should a nationalist think when he sees that?

Also, for all the Loyalists and Republicans who proclaim a love for their respective flags they really have no respect for them at all, these 'much loved' flags stay up until they either fall down or only threads remain flapping in the wind.

Finally, one of the most popular sports in the North here is counting the number of Union flags that fly upside down, unsurprisingly, it's a lot.

junder

Fratton Fred wrote: »

We are often told by republicans to move on, yet they commemorate their own groups at every possible opportunity, selling IRA paraphernalia at major political party conferences for example.

This is simply unionists marking a significant event in their past. Let them do it, make sure the flags are removed on Monday and carry on. It seems pretty simple to me.

One rule for them, one rule for us. Any comment t-runner

karma_

junder wrote: »

One rule for them, one rule for us. Any comment t-runner

I have a comment. I find this as distasteful as these UVF flags, they are two sides of the same coin.

Madam

junder wrote: »

One rule for them, one rule for us. Any comment t-runner

Gawd - do yis never tire of this whataboutery?

junder

Madam wrote: »

Gawd - do yis never tire of this whataboutery?

Republicans? No I don't think they do

Madam

What does PUL mean?

gallag

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Sources?



The UVF didn't fight in WWI.

http://m.u.tv/News/Two-arrests-amid-Derry-suspect-object/e80cced2-9389-4c70-a701-338cea5fa353

http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/15/psni-anti-thatcher-protests-derry

If you want to be pedantic and argue that the uvf did not fight in ww1 that is up to you.

"Unionists, who were particularly concentrated in the northern province of Ulster, naturally needed less justification to join up. Having from 1912 organised a sizeable, armed, paramilitary 'Ulster Volunteer Force' (UVF) to oppose home rule and secure the union with Great Britain, they could scarcely stand idly by when Great Britain itself went to war. Despite some jockeying for party advantage, a substantial proportion of the UVF enlisted to form the predominantly unionist and almost wholly Protestant 36th (Ulster) Division. Nationalists, themselves mostly Catholic, joined the other two of Lord Kitchener's 'New Army' divisions raised in Ireland: the 10th (Irish) and 16th (Irish) Divisions."

Chuck Stone

gallag wrote: »

If you want to be pedantic and argue that the uvf did not fight in ww1 that is up to you.

This is a commemoration of the UVF not WWI. I don't think the British Army would be too pleased with the bunch of civilian murdering degenerates that made up the Modern UVF, and their associates, hitching their bandwagon to the whole WWI commemoration.

junder

Chuck Stone wrote: »

This is a commemoration of the UVF not WWI. I don't think the British Army would be too pleased with the bunch of civilian murdering degenerates that made up the Modern UVF, and their associates, hitching their bandwagon to the whole WWI commemoration.

Are you going to say the same of the Easter rising commerations in two years time?

bilston

GRMA wrote: »

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/latest-alliance-concern-at-uvf-flag-display-1-4998980


Disgraceful that the UVF are allowed to operate openly and hang their flags up in broad daylight.

The PSNI should remove these sectarian flags immediately - nationalists have already lost a lot of faith in the PSNI (see Gerry Kellys speech at SF ard fheis) over the flegs debacle and now this?

What Unionist or Loyalist flags would you tolerate? Are there any at all that you don't find offensive?

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

One rule for them, one rule for us. Any comment t-runner

That's a fringe element of Republicanism. How would you feel about all marching bands, flags and symbolism being expunged from the public spaces of the north? We know that that would have a devastating effect on Loyalism seeing as it's so tied up in these things.

junder wrote: »

Are you going to say the same of the Easter rising commerations in two years time?

The Easter Rising was part of a struggle for independence from an imperial power. Hardly analogous to the celebrating the UVF.

junder

Chuck Stone wrote: »

That's a fringe element of Republicanism. How would you feel about all marching bands, flags and symbolism being expunged from the public spaces of the north? We know that that would have a devastating effect on Loyalism seeing as it's so tied up in these things.



The Easter Rising was part of a struggle for independence from an imperial power. Hardly analogous to the celebrating the UVF.

The creation of the original UVF and its subsequent transformation into the 36th ulster division is every bit as important as the rebellion in Dublin, but again we see the 'one rule for us, one rule for them'ems ' mentality of republicans

Madam

gallag wrote: »

http://m.u.tv/News/Two-arrests-amid-Derry-suspect-object/e80cced2-9389-4c70-a701-338cea5fa353

http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/15/psni-anti-thatcher-protests-derry

If you want to be pedantic and argue that the uvf did not fight in ww1 that is up to you.

"Unionists, who were particularly concentrated in the northern province of Ulster, naturally needed less justification to join up. Having from 1912 organised a sizeable, armed, paramilitary 'Ulster Volunteer Force' (UVF) to oppose home rule and secure the union with Great Britain, they could scarcely stand idly by when Great Britain itself went to war. Despite some jockeying for party advantage, a substantial proportion of the UVF enlisted to form the predominantly unionist and almost wholly Protestant 36th (Ulster) Division. Nationalists, themselves mostly Catholic, joined the other two of Lord Kitchener's 'New Army' divisions raised in Ireland: the 10th (Irish) and 16th (Irish) Divisions."

I wonder if the UVF people in the other 3 county's felt the same after 1922 when the 'other' Unionists deserted them for their wee statelett

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

The creation of the original UVF and its subsequent transformation into the 36th ulster division is every bit as important as the rebellion in Dublin

A group formed to block the self-determination of the people of this island? A group who played their part in cleaving off the six counties to ensure their supremacy and who treated the Catholic minority as subordinates? A group that was subsequently reborn as the despised USC?

As important as an independence struggle against a world colonial power? I don't think so.

As for fighting in WWI, the UVF didn't fight in WWI and there are plenty of ways of remembering British war dead. Let's not pretend this is a commemoration of anything other than the UVF and what it stands for.

OCorcrainn

Fratton Fred wrote: »

These flags are supposedly there as part of the centenary celebrations, which seems pretty legit to me.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It looks to me as though it is commemorating 100 years since the founding of the Ulster Volunteers. What's wrong with that?

T runner wrote: »

Should IRA flags be flown freely in Belfast to commemorate 1916?

1. On this thread you are condescending about the concept of a day commemorating Ireland's struggle for independence. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056886739, stating that it will be a day for "Shinners" and "republicans" to commemorate murderers, terrorists and the PIRA.
-And yet you think this issue with the UVF and the celebration of their sectarian atrocities is perfectly fine and "pretty legit".

2. Care to answer T runner's question? You still have not responded.

junder

Chuck Stone wrote: »

A group formed to block the self-determination of the people of this island? A group who played their part in cleaving off the six counties to ensure their supremacy and who treated the Catholic minority as subordinates? A group that was subsequently reborn as the despised USC?

As important as an independence struggle against a world colonial power? I don't think so.

As for fighting in WWI, the UVF didn't fight in WWI and there are plenty of ways of remembering British war dead. Let's not pretend this is a commemoration of anything other than the UVF and what it stands for.

So what your Actully saying is your history is more important then mine

GRMA

Obviously all those prattling on about nationalist double standards didn't read the piece, the unionist alliance party is complaining about them. They were put up outside people's homes and it seems not everyone wants them.

junder

As I mentioned before, atleast in this case we are only talking about flags where as in Londonderry, republicans from the bogside have chosen to celebrate the death of thatcher by attacking the small Protestant enclave of the fountain, as one young person from the fountain already posted on a social networking site tonight 'another bomb found and upwards of 100 youths gathering in the bogside could be an eventful night' but hey lets talk about loyalist flags being put up in a overwhelmingly loyalist area

Iwasfrozen

Disgusting flags, they should be taken down at once. But why are they illegal?

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Obviously all those prattling on about nationalist double standards didn't read the piece, the unionist alliance party is complaining about them. They were put up outside people's homes and it seems not everyone wants them.

Think the alliance party would take great offence being called a unionist party

Madam

junder wrote: »

As I mentioned before, atleast in this case we are only talking about flags where as in Londonderry, republicans from the bogside have chosen to celebrate the death of thatcher by attacking the small Protestant enclave of the fountain, as one young person from the fountain already posted on a social networking site tonight 'another bomb found and upwards of 100 youths gathering in the bogside could be an eventful night' but hey lets talk about loyalist flags being put up in a overwhelmingly loyalist area

Good god man you live in the UK and you can still cite a place as a 'loyalist area' as if its the norm!

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

So what your Actully saying is your history is more important then mine

Do I believe the Irish struggle for independence from Imperial Britain was far more important than the history of the UVF?

Em.. yes. Is that not obvious?

When I hear 'UVF' all I think of was the murder campaign they carried out against innocent people from the community I come from.

overshoot

i dont think it should be allowed, lets face it, i could live with the intentions of the founding fathers of the UVF but any nobleness which may have existed in its name has been removed with the troubles and subsequent versions.
surely the same can be said for the original IRA, which brought independence, but now the 3 letters have been pissed on by recent imitations....

perhaps a better question for anyone supporting this flag is would someone in support of these flags have problem for a similar IRA version in small republican areas considering its 100 year anniversary is fast approaching?

OCorcrainn

junder wrote: »

Think the alliance party would take great offence being called a unionist party

So what would you describe them as junder?