Calls to remove illegal UVF flags in Belfast

Fratton Fred

OCorcrainn wrote: »

1. On this thread you are condescending about the concept of a day commemorating Ireland's struggle for independence. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056886739, stating that it will be a day for "Shinners" and "republicans" to commemorate murderers, terrorists and the PIRA.
-And yet you think this issue with the UVF and the celebration of their sectarian atrocities is perfectly fine and "pretty legit".

Wow, stalk much?

Are the people celebrating the formation of the UVF calling for a public holiday called loyalist day? No? Then it's not the same thing by a long shot.

OCorcrainn wrote: »

. Care to answer T runner's question? You still have not responded.

They do very often use ira symbols as Junder pointed out.

junder

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Do I believe the Irish struggle for independence from Imperial Britain was far more important than the history of the UVF?

Em.. yes. Is that not obvious?

When I hear 'UVF' all I think of was the murder campaign they carried out against innocent people from community I come from.

Not what I asked. I asked is your history more important then mine, of which you Have answered yes. You may not like it but the creation of the old UVF is of seminal importance to loyalists / unionists its a defining moment in our history as is the subsequent 'blood sacrifice' made at the Somme by the same men who founded the original UVF, the same men that fought side by side with Redmond's IVF men at passchendaele while the men that no doubt you will be celebrating had they failed rebellion in Dublin. Ironic to think that is the British over reaction to the prisoners of the rising rather then the rising itself that secured the Irish republics independence. Where will the men of the IVF factor into your Easter rising celebrations where will thier commeration be.

RustyNut

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Are the people celebrating the formation of the UVF calling for a public holiday called loyalist day? No? Then it's not the same thing by a long shot.

I just think its wrong to celebrate any terrorist organisation.

junder

overshoot wrote: »

i dont think it should be allowed, lets face it, i could live with the intentions of the founding fathers of the UVF but any nobleness which may have existed in its name has been removed with the troubles and subsequent versions.
surely the same can be said for the original IRA, which brought independence, but now the 3 letters have been pissed on by recent imitations....

perhaps a better question for anyone supporting this flag is would someone in support of these flags have problem for a similar IRA version in small republican areas considering its 100 year anniversary is fast approaching?

Just because a modern day group decided to name themselves after the old UVF in no way diminishes what the old UVF stood for. If that is not the case then your independence will be forever stained by the blood of innocents shed by the ira. As for celebrations, I have no doubt that in 1916 the entire island will be an orgy of republican symbolism

GRMA

Junder here despite being a member of the British army has a rather frightening ambivalence towards the UVF and the display of a sectarian paramilitary flag

Ill point out again they didn't have permission and they obviously don't have the support of all the locals.

As for the original UVF, they made up the bulk of the sectarian murderers the a b and c specials they were no different from the modern UVF except they sold less drugs.

RustyNut

junder wrote: »

Just because a modern day group decided to name themselves after the old UVF in no way diminishes what the old UVF stood for. If that is not the case then your independence will be forever stained by the blood of innocents shed by the ira. As for celebrations, I have no doubt that in 1916 the entire island will be an orgy of republican symbolism

Were the old UVF not set up to use force of arms to subvert the will of the government ?

GRMA

RustyNut wrote: »

Were the old UVF not set up to use force of arms to subvert the will of the government ?

Yes, traitors they were to their king, loyalism is a very confused and conflicted ideology

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Junder here despite being a member of the British army has a rather frightening ambivalence towards the UVF and the display of a sectarian paramilitary flag

Ill point out again they didn't have permission and they obviously don't have the support of all the locals.

As for the original UVF, they made up the bulk of the sectarian murderers the a b and c specials they were no different from the modern UVF except they sold less drugs.

I think I have made distinction between the original UVF and the so called modern UVF. To try and infer some sort of tacit support for the modern UVF is a cheap trick and one that won't work. Yes some locals have complaigned most have not, and no doubt the streets will be lined with tens of thousands of people on Saturday many of whom will be from east Belfast . Funny how now republicans have moved from dictating what can be flown / shown in so called shared spaces, to dictating what can be flown / shown in predominately loyalists areas.

junder

OCorcrainn wrote: »

So what would you describe them as junder?

Finished

overshoot

junder wrote: »

Just because a modern day group decided to name themselves after the old UVF in no way diminishes what the old UVF stood for. If that is not the case then your independence will be forever stained by the blood of innocents shed by the ira. As for celebrations, I have no doubt that in 1916 the entire island will be an orgy of republican symbolism

yea you follow my point, that the original cannot be condemned by the rip offs and its a shame their names are now stained (lets face it who thinks of either original when their name is mentioned), but i never mentioned the easter rising and the question was would you condemn a similar display for the IRA in 2019?

COYW

gallag wrote: »

Again another thread about those loyalists and flags, 7 straight nights of riots in London derry and trying to burn protestants out of their homes, more bombs foiled by the "dissidents" and two cars stopped in London derry filled with Republican guns, ammo and bombs but lets not make a thread about any of that, loyalists celebrating the formation of a detachment that fought bravely in ww1 is the thing to be disgusted by.

Don't forget to mention the military style march that the republicans had in Derry/Londonderry the night after Maggie Thatcher died, from which this violence spawned.

The UVF flags are flying in loyalist areas. Once they are not flown in a nationalist area, they should be allowed to celebrate away.

kabakuyu

junder wrote: »

Not what I asked. I asked is your history more important then mine, of which you Have answered yes. You may not like it but the creation of the old UVF is of seminal importance to loyalists / unionists its a defining moment in our history as is the subsequent 'blood sacrifice' made at the Somme by the same men who founded the original UVF, the same men that fought side by side with Redmond's IVF men at passchendaele while the men that no doubt you will be celebrating had they failed rebellion in Dublin. Ironic to think that is the British over reaction to the prisoners of the rising rather then the rising itself that secured the Irish republics independence. Where will the men of the IVF factor into your Easter rising celebrations where will thier commeration be.

The 16th Irish and 36th Ulster divisions first fought together at Messines in June 1917 and they were both successful in attaining their objectives that day.
I think the problem some have with the flags stems from the fact that the original UVF was considered an almost exclusively protestant organistion but I do believe that less than a score of catholics (some converts) were members.
I believe that the men of the INV who died in the war are commemorated at the national day of commemoration in July every year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Commemoration

The Easter rising commemorations are a seperate event.

TOMASJ

junder wrote: »

Just because a modern day group decided to name themselves after the old UVF in no way diminishes what the old UVF stood for. If that is not the case then your independence will be forever stained by the blood of innocents shed by the ira. As for celebrations, I have no doubt that in 1916 the entire island will be an orgy of republican symbolism

The modern day uvf and the old uvf were two of a kind, in fact the old uvf were probably worse in that they threatened to turn their guns on the british army if the did not get their way,

junder

TOMASJ wrote: »

The modern day uvf and the old uvf were two of a kind, in fact the old uvf were probably worse in that they threatened to turn their guns on the british army if the did not get their way,

And what was the Irish civil war all about then? Irish republicans turning thier guns on the free state army

TOMASJ

junder wrote: »

And what was the Irish civil war all about then? Irish republicans turning thier guns on the free state army

Is this thread about the Irish civil war?
or uvf thugs past and present,
Start a new one on the Irish civil war junder

GRMA

junder wrote: »

And what was the Irish civil war all about then? Irish republicans turning thier guns on the free state army

Free state army turning their guns on republicans...

Anyways,

So here we have the UVF hanging up sectarian flags and we also have the UDA painting kerbstones and hanging Union Jacks they bought as they throw interface agreements out the window. This fine and dandy according to you?

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Free state army turning their guns on republicans...

Anyways,

So here we have the UVF hanging up sectarian flags and we also have the UDA painting kerbstones and hanging Union Jacks they bought as they throw interface agreements out the window. This fine and dandy according to you?

So now your telling people what they can and can't do within thier own areas. So what in perticuler is sectarian about these commeration flags since I see NI reference to anything to do with the Roman Catholic faith, although ironically there is a picture of a gealic football player, guess you must be annoyed that the parade is not going anywhere near the short strand, so you could really work yourself up, Unfortuntly for you the parade will be sticking to unionist areas. By the way how do you know it's the uda behind painting kerb stones round where I live it's the locals residents that have fund raised and organized themselves to buy the flags and the paint nothing to do with any paramiltary group

GRMA

junder wrote: »

So now your telling people what they can and can't do within thier own areas. So what in perticuler is sectarian about these commeration flags since I see NI reference to anything to do with the Roman Catholic faith, although ironically there is a picture of a gealic football player, guess you must be annoyed that the parade is not going anywhere near the short strand, so you could really work yourself up, Unfortuntly for you the parade will be sticking to unionist areas. By the way how do you know it's the uda behind painting kerb stones round where I live it's the locals residents that have fund raised and organized themselves to buy the flags and the paint nothing to do with any paramiltary group

Eh, I'm saying that there is no place for the UVF or the UDA in any place... wouldn't you agree?

Paramilitary thugs took a break from drug dealing to put up these flags - don't try to deny it because we both know I'm telling the truth about the UDA and UVF. I don't know where exactly you live but its the UDA who are at the kerb painting and flag hoisting in Tiger Bay.

They are sectarian because they are a flag for a sectarian group... the UVF.

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Eh, I'm saying that there is no place for the UVF or the UDA in any place... wouldn't you agree?

Paramilitary thugs took a break from drug dealing to put up these flags - don't try to deny it because we both know I'm telling the truth about the UDA and UVF. I don't know where exactly you live but its the UDA who are at the kerb painting and flag hoisting in Tiger Bay.

They are sectarian because they are a flag for a sectarian group... the UVF.

Don't live in tigers bay so can't speak for that area although since you seem to have insider information, perhaps you take it to the police. In my area the union flags and kerb stones where painted and put up by the local community, with no paramiltary involvement, money was raised locally. Really can't be arsed to argue about the flag, it's just going to go around in circles, the flag represents the old UVF the pictures are of Carson, Craig and Crawford not of gusty spence, you don't see it that way, fair enough your entitled to your opinion as am I

junder

http://m.u.tv/news/Thousands-at-UVF-march-in-Belfast/909d2c98-38ca-412d-8ead-441f22096b99

"Some local residents raised concerns. Police said the flags are not related to a proscribed organisation and offered to meet local community groups."

Dubhlinner

There's no doubt lots of loyalists will associate the flags with the modern UVF and enjoy them in that sense. Which is obviously despicable.

However the original UVF did exist, were extremely important to the separation of Ulster/Northern Ireland from the rest of Ireland and the flags have Carson and Craig on them.

If they're being flown in unionist areas leave them be.

GRMA

junder wrote: »

Don't live in tigers bay so can't speak for that area although since you seem to have insider information, perhaps you take it to the police. In my area the union flags and kerb stones where painted and put up by the local community, with no paramiltary involvement, money was raised locally. Really can't be arsed to argue about the flag, it's just going to go around in circles, the flag represents the old UVF the pictures are of Carson, Craig and Crawford not of gusty spence, you don't see it that way, fair enough your entitled to your opinion as am I

I notice you've made no comment about the UVF having put up those flags.


You sicken me really, a member of the security forces showing this type of ambivalence about loyalist gangs - don't think its gone unnoticed that you deleted your old profile and associated posts over on PULSE in an attempt to cover your tracks and plausibly deny saying the things you have on there.

GRMA

Dubhlinner wrote: »

There's no doubt lots of loyalists will associate the flags with the modern UVF and enjoy them in that sense. Which is obviously despicable.

However the original UVF did exist, were extremely important to the separation of Ulster/Northern Ireland from the rest of Ireland and the flags have Carson and Craig on them.

If they're being flown in unionist areas leave them be.

Considering the UVF put them up I'd say that's a given.

junder

GRMA wrote: »

I notice you've made no comment about the UVF having put up those flags.


You sicken me really, a member of the security forces showing this type of ambivalence about loyalist gangs - don't think its gone unnoticed that you deleted your old profile and associated posts over on PULSE in an attempt to cover your tracks and plausibly deny saying the things you have on there.

My deletion of my account on pulse has nothing to do with you or this site, I'm afraid your just not that important. The reason for deletion are my own and are quite frankly none of your buisness. As for the flags you seem to know about who put them up then I do, personnly if there has been some sort of illegal action taken i will leave it in the hands of the police

junder

Some photos of the event

gallag

GRMA wrote: »

I notice you've made no comment about the UVF having put up those flags.


You sicken me really, a member of the security forces showing this type of ambivalence about loyalist gangs - don't think its gone unnoticed that you deleted your old profile and associated posts over on PULSE in an attempt to cover your tracks and plausibly deny saying the things you have on there.

Is there any need for this attitude? Its a bit creepy dude. You do know there are hundreds of ira murals and thousands of flags in nationalist areas aswell, its not just the "prods" that do tribalism. These flags have been deemed legal, they are in a loyalist area and its been promised that they will be removed after the commemoration, what is your problem?

mathepac

gallag wrote: »

... Despite some jockeying for party advantage, a substantial proportion of the UVF enlisted to form the predominantly unionist and almost wholly Protestant 36th (Ulster) Division. ..."

So you're point is that no new, old or any UVF ever fought in WWI; I think most of us knew that, but thanks for the confirmation.

gallag wrote: »

" ... Nationalists, themselves mostly Catholic, joined the other two of Lord Kitchener's 'New Army' divisions raised in Ireland: the 10th (Irish) and 16th (Irish) Divisions."

You could also argue, given that Kitchener raised two "Irish" (non-Ulster but mostly Catholic) divisions that the Pope, the Catholic Church, the Christian Brothers, the Legion of Mary, the IRB etc also fought for Britain in WWI.

Is there a flaw in my application of @gallag's logic?

GRMA

gallag wrote: »

Is there any need for this attitude? Its a bit creepy dude. You do know there are hundreds of ira murals and thousands of flags in nationalist areas aswell, its not just the "prods" that do tribalism. These flags have been deemed legal, they are in a loyalist area and its been promised that they will be removed after the commemoration, what is your problem?

You see no issue with the UVF and UDA operating openly and putting these flags up while the PSNI do nothing?

karma_

junder wrote: »

http://m.u.tv/news/Thousands-at-UVF-march-in-Belfast/909d2c98-38ca-412d-8ead-441f22096b99

"Some local residents raised concerns. Police said the flags are not related to a proscribed organisation and offered to meet local community groups."

Embarrassing that they couldn't even get the Union flag the right way up at Craigavon house.

kabakuyu

junder wrote: »

Some photos of the event

Thanks for the pics.It was reported on RTE by Tommy O'Gorman that the organisers requested that RTE and BBC NI not film the proceedings,also stated that no mainstream Unionist parties were represented except the PUP.

Hannibal

GRMA wrote: »

You see no issue with the UVF and UDA operating openly and putting these flags up while the PSNI do nothing?

It can be guaranteed if the IRA was to be commemorated with parades and celebration of its centenery in a couple of years then there would be uproar from the unionists in the north and their colleagues in the south (Fine Gael).

The UVF and UDA have not decommissioned their arsenal of weapons and both remain active to this day and to have groups like this parading openly is a major blot on the people who attended and supported this march. The time and place for rhis has long ended in the north.

ONeill2013

I've seen a lot of UVF flags in July in loyalists towns such as Ballymena for the 12th July celebrations. Seems like such a family moment putting them up, I've seen men covered with tattoo's bring their children out to watch them put them up. All flags should be banned in N.Ireland

DEFTLEFTHAND

It's about time the Nationalists cooled their jets and quit mouthing. Both sides are entitled to remember their history. The UVF just like the old IRA were once men of honour and principle.

Norwesterner

GRMA wrote: »

You see no issue with the UVF and UDA operating openly and putting these flags up while the PSNI do nothing?

The UVF and UDA leadership got a Garda escort to Islandbridge, where they shared a platform with FG and Labour and met the Queen.
The Govt also finance the UDA's political wing (UPRG) with your taxes.
Bertie Ahern paid for media training of UDA spokesmen.


Meanwhile close to 100 people are arrested for attending a Republican funeral in Dublin a few months ago, (including family members of the murder victim)...
and a Derry man was fined for listening to Wolfe Tones songs in his own car.
This is the parity of esteem the GFA promised us.

Norwesterner

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

It's about time the Nationalists cooled their jets and quit mouthing. Both sides are entitled to remember their history. The UVF just like the old IRA were once men of honour and principle.

Do you think Marion Price was entitled to honour IRA dead?
She's spending her third year in internment for attending an Easter rally.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Norwesterner wrote: »

Do you think Marion Price was entitled to honour IRA dead?
She's spending her third year in internment for attending an Easter rally.

You're not giving her full story here though are you.

junder

kabakuyu wrote: »

Thanks for the pics.It was reported on RTE by Tommy O'Gorman that the organisers requested that RTE and BBC NI not film the proceedings,also stated that no mainstream Unionist parties were represented except the PUP.

That was only at the field where speeches where held

guttenberg

junder wrote: »

That was only at the field where speeches where held

What's the logic for not wanting them to record speeches?

johnnydeep

guttenberg wrote: »

What's the logic for not wanting them to record speeches?

incitement to violence. sectarianism showing the world what knuckle dragging halfwits they are

More issues with flags :rolleyes:

GRMA

There was no "good old UVF". Just because a bunch of them died in a pointless war doesn't change the fact that they were a sectarian gang who committed sectarian crimes from their foundation and went on to make up the a, b and c specials who murdered Catholics in their homes

DEFTLEFTHAND

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

It's about time the Nationalists cooled their jets and quit mouthing. Both sides are entitled to remember their history. The UVF just like the old IRA were once men of honour and principle.

Yeah Gusty Spence was certainly "a man of honour"....

NIMAN

Will be interesting to see if these UVF flags are now taken down since the parade is over.

DEFTLEFTHAND

They stood for what they believed in, there's two sides to this conflict. What happened in later years is a disgrace to Unionism, violent sociopathic thugs, Billy boys. The Republican movement also had it's share of these fcuking lunatics, groups like these break the code and honour. Once that's gone they draw the degenerates.

RustyNut

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

They stood for what they believed in

And that's the very excuse that today's knuckle daggers use.

DEFTLEFTHAND

RustyNut wrote: »

And that's the very excuse that today's knuckle daggers use.

The IRA before they became an organised crime Mafia group stood for what they believed in, they had a legitimate political aim, a 32 county Republic. The Unionists also had an aim, to keep themselves within the Union. There's nothing wrong with that. Two ideals clash, what can we do?

getzls

rarnes1 wrote: »

Yeah Gusty Spence was certainly "a man of honour"....

He was not in the old U.V.F.

Though i think you know that.

junder

rarnes1 wrote: »

Yeah Gusty Spence was certainly "a man of honour"....

Certinly as much as Gerry or Martin are

johnnydeep

junder wrote: »

Certinly as much as Gerry or Martin are

really.

kabakuyu

Good article here on the "old UVF" by Timothy Bowman from QUB http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume10/issue1/features/?id=113605