Calls to remove illegal UVF flags in Belfast

Hannibal

Norwesterner wrote: »

Meanwhile close to 100 people are arrested for attending a Republican funeral in Dublin a few months ago, (including family members of the murder victim)...

That's not quite the full story there.
a) they were not "Republicans", it was a republican themed funeral. The deceased was an extortionist operating under the guise of a supposedly republican organisation.

b) the family members in question aren't quite innocent considering one was caught in possession of an assault rifle a few weeks later, and another is a very senior member of the same organisation the deceased was.

Norwesterner

Dotsey wrote: »

That's not quite the full story there.
a) they were not "Republicans", it was a republican themed funeral. The deceased was an extortionist operating under the guise of a supposedly republican organisation.

b) the family members in question aren't quite innocent considering one was caught in possession of an assault rifle a few weeks later, and another is a very senior member of the same organisation the deceased was.

Thats quite libelous and pre-judicial.
No evidence of your allegation against Alan Ryan whatsoever.
And the brother was NOT caught in possession of an assault rifle.
He is awaiting trumped up charges and has not been found guilty of any offence yet.
Had he been "caught in possession of such rifle" why was he not charged till a year later.

Also, who are you exactly to judge who is a Republican and who is not?
Reported for sub judicial and misleading and false information during a court case.

Chuck Stone

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The IRA before they became an organised crime Mafia group

I'm guessing you mean the PIRA? If so, you should really stop embarrassing yourself by parroting the nonsense you've been fed.

An internal British army document examining 37 years of deployment in Northern Ireland contains the claim by one expert that it failed to defeat the IRA.

It describes the IRA as "a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force", while loyalist paramilitaries and other republican groups are described as "little more than a collection of gangsters".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6276416.stm

bilston

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I'm guessing you mean the PIRA? If so, you should really stop embarrassing yourself by parroting the nonsense you've been fed.

Aye they were real heroes:mad:

GRMA

bilston wrote: »

Aye they were real heroes:mad:

Thats what the Brit document says is it?

bilston

GRMA wrote: »

Thats what the Brit document says is it?

I'd certainly hope not.

Hannibal

Norwesterner wrote: »

Thats quite libelous and pre-judicial.
No evidence of your allegation against Alan Ryan whatsoever.
And the brother was NOT caught in possession of an assault rifle.
He is awaiting trumped up charges and has not been found guilty of any offence yet.
Had he been "caught in possession of such rifle" why was he not charged till a year later.

Also, who are you exactly to judge who is a Republican and who is not?
Reported for sub judicial and misleading and false information during a court case.

Anyone who has their ear to the ground in Dublin knew about this individual and what his gang were upto as regards extortion and intimdation, maybe there's no evidence but it's common knowledge.

The brother was charged with possession so the trial will be the place to determine whether it's trumped or whether he was in possession. I know he wasn't caught red handed with the weapons, but the charge relates to a murder on the date so I can guess that either they have a witness, an informer or indeed forensics.

I am not the ultimate judge on who or who isn't a republican or what a republican is or isn't but having seen the two groups in question the last few years I can make my own decision that they are not republicans, they are on the fringes pointing fingers and thats were they will remain. I would regard the party as being obsessed with SF and more focused on being anti-SF than they are on being republicans. I've seen the political face of the group in person and I have come across members and activists so I'm not just sitting behind a computer and casting judgement based on the media.

GRMA

Theres two factions of the reals in Dublin one of them are complete drug dealing gangsters and then there was Alan Ryans group which rather than have drug dealers pay protection money they used to simply go steal it from them, hence why the drug dealers hated him and had him killed, he was not their friend to say the least. However a fair section of his group were dregs too and were criminals and he let it go on, no doubt benefiting himself. But in the few months prior to his death he had begun to clean up his gang a bit after an ear bashing from the northern reals who are certainly much more serious and were not happy with what was going on. So they say anyway. As criminals go Alan Ryan was not the worst and he did some good on occasion when it suited him. On the whole he was not really a positive figure in Dublin or Ireland. I met him a few times (didn't know anything about him beyond he was in the 32s) and he was a very friendly guy and would volunteer help to complete strangers at the drop of a hat and follow it up but you'd be wary of accepting it.

But he falls far far far short of the likes of Francis Hughes or other provos, incomparable really.


Dublin has been rotten for decades in terms of the republican movement so I suppose its logical that it would be the same for dissidents.

Norwesterner

Dotsey wrote: »

Anyone who has their ear to the ground in Dublin knew about this individual and what his gang were upto as regards extortion and intimdation, maybe there's no evidence but it's common knowledge.

The brother was charged with possession so the trial will be the place to determine whether it's trumped or whether he was in possession. I know he wasn't caught red handed with the weapons, but the charge relates to a murder on the date so I can guess that either they have a witness, an informer or indeed forensics.

I am not the ultimate judge on who or who isn't a republican or what a republican is or isn't but having seen the two groups in question the last few years I can make my own decision that they are not republicans, they are on the fringes pointing fingers and thats were they will remain. I would regard the party as being obsessed with SF and more focused on being anti-SF than they are on being republicans. I've seen the political face of the group in person and I have come across members and activists so I'm not just sitting behind a computer and casting judgement based on the media.

"Ear to the ground" "dogs in the street".....
You mean Trial by media don't you.

Alan Ryan offered to be interviewed by his accusers in the media so he could have the right to reply to the scurrilous allegations.
His accusers like the cowards they are feared to face him in open debate, and preferred to carry on the character assasination.

I was in SF up till 1997 and the same journalists were writing the same lies and nonsense back then against SF.

Chuck Stone

But [UVF] paramilitary bosses Stephen ‘Mackers' Matthews, Harry Stockman, Joe ‘No Neck' McGaw and Shankill Butcher Eddie McIlwaine hijacked it to march alongside ordinary people.

belfasttelegraph.co.uk

A great day out for the lads.

GRMA

Norwesterner wrote: »

"Ear to the ground" "dogs in the street".....
You mean Trial by media don't you.

Alan Ryan offered to be interviewed by his accusers in the media so he could have the right to reply to the scurrilous allegations.
His accusers like the cowards they are feared to face him in open debate, and preferred to carry on the character assasination.

I was in SF up till 1997 and the same journalists were writing the same lies and nonsense back then against SF.

Ryan liked the coverage he got in the media, why else would he constantly get in contact with them?

GRMA

Chuck Stone wrote: »

A great day out for the lads.

Nothing to do with the modern UVF at all at all.

Norwesterner

GRMA wrote: »

Ryan liked the coverage he got in the media, why else would he constantly get in contact with them?

When did he get in contact with them, other than them doorstepping him or photographing him in the street?
Do you think he wanted this harassment?
The one time he bumped into one of these journalists, he offered them an interview (so he could deny the allegations). This was refused.
Why would an "investigative journalist" refuse an interview with someone he was tailing.
Because he's a liar and afraid to be caught out.

GRMA

The media were not allowed onto the grounds of craigavon house... why was that? To try and shield criminality. Why else ban the media from a commemoration

GRMA

Norwesterner wrote: »

When did he get in contact with them, other than them doorstepping him or photographing him in the street?
Do you think he wanted this harassment?
The one time he bumped into one of these journalists, he offered them an interview (so he could deny the allegations). This was refused.
Why would an "investigative journalist" refuse an interview with someone he was tailing.
Because he's a liar and afraid to be caught out.

Didn't get the impression he minded the media too much, in comparison to the friendly detectives


There's no point pretending that he was some sort of great republican, he allowed so many people to engage in criminality and made no attempt to clean his organization up until the very end, and thats fact, we both know it.

Norwesterner

GRMA wrote: »

Didn't get the impression he minded the media too much, in comparison to the friendly detectives


There's no point pretending that he was some sort of great republican, he allowed so many people to engage in criminality and made no attempt to clean his organization up until the very end, and thats fact, we both know it.

Thats not what I'm hearing from people who knew him personally.
Not saying he was a superhero. Nobody is.
8 of the 10 HungerStrikers broke under interrogation.
Francis Hughes was briefly kicked out of the IRA after a drunken incident in Dundalk.
They're just ordinary fellas, flaws and all.
But I don't believe a word from the likes of the gutter press when it comes to Republicans of any hue.

GRMA

Norwesterner wrote: »

Thats not what I'm hearing from people who knew him personally.
Not saying he was a superhero. Nobody is.
8 of the 10 HungerStrikers broke under interrogation.
Francis Hughes was briefly kicked out of the IRA after a drunken incident in Dundalk.
They're just ordinary fellas, flaws and all.
But I don't believe a word from the likes of the gutter press when it comes to Republicans of any hue.

Michael Devine was the only one who broke to my knowledge (after a very short period of time) but buckling in Castlerae is nothing be ashamed of

The provisionals did not allow members to engage in such huge amounts of criminality and above all drugs. Drugs are a far cry from fags and wash and even then it wasn't to line their own pockets.

You can't deny that the reals are up to their necks with drugs in dublin, one faction barely even disguises it.

Considering you were in SF yourself until 97 (and presumably for a while before) you can see for yorself the differences between then and now in terms of criminality, infiltration and general thuggery.

But I will admit that Alan was a friendly enough guy and always turned up to protests but that in no way excuses the terrible things that went on and in no circumstances excuses criminality which in no way can be construed as being republican activity

And thats leaving aside my opinion on their political approach o things which imo is miles off course and is worse than doing nothing.

guttenberg

What has the character of Alan Ryan and the hungerstrikers got to do with a UVF flag?

gurramok

http://www.u.tv/news/Thousands-at-UVF-march-in-Belfast/909D2C98-38CA-412D-8EAD-441F22096B99

A minute's silence was held for volunteers who had died over the last century.

Which ones were they? Modern UVF as well?!

Rubeter

bilston wrote: »

Aye they were real heroes:mad:

Many many "groups" throughout history and today could rightly be called "a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force", stating this does not imply one thinks they are heroes, that their cause is honourable, nor even that you agree with their aims, recognising a military force for what it is is just common sense and quite handy when engaging them.
I'm sure there was many a young squaddie went to the north thinking he was off up against a bunch of thugs and half-witted psychos and then changed his mind quite rapidly or else didn't have to worry about it anymore.

Norwesterner

GRMA wrote: »

Michael Devine was the only one who broke to my knowledge (after a very short period of time) but buckling in Castlerae is nothing be ashamed of

The provisionals did not allow members to engage in such huge amounts of criminality and above all drugs. Drugs are a far cry from fags and wash and even then it wasn't to line their own pockets.

You can't deny that the reals are up to their necks with drugs in dublin, one faction barely even disguises it.

Considering you were in SF yourself until 97 (and presumably for a while before) you can see for yorself the differences between then and now in terms of criminality, infiltration and general thuggery.

But I will admit that Alan was a friendly enough guy and always turned up to protests but that in no way excuses the terrible things that went on and in no circumstances excuses criminality which in no way can be construed as being republican activity

And thats leaving aside my opinion on their political approach o things which imo is miles off course and is worse than doing nothing.

8 of the ten made statements. But I don't use that as a slight against them.
They were human beings.
Yes, I was in SF pre 97 and no, I don't see any difference between those Republicans I worked with in the 80's and 90's and those I know today.
Most are former members of Sinn Fein etc.
I haven't met any dissident Republican who is involved in drugs or criminality.
Sorry, but not one.
Most are rabidly anti drug dealers and slightly to the right of the Taliban on the issue.
Most of it is media invention and the same allegations was made against PSF.
Even in the 70's the media used terms like "Godfathers" "mafia" "thugs and criminals" was used against the Provos (and the old IRA too)
Fact is there is not a single Republican, north or south in jail for drugs offences.
Can the Gardai, PSNI, B.A, or Defence Forces say the same?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/navy-wren-smuggled-1million-cocaine-413511
http://www.sundayworld.com/columnists/?aid=13516

GRMA

So the flags are still flying.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-22307837

And loyalists have seemingly tried to reignite the holy cross dispute by painting kerbstones outside the school, erecting union jacks and holding a picket at the school gates. The mind boggles.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Union flags, a Union Jack hangs off the back of a ship. Know your enemy.

dubscottie

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Union flags, a Union Jack hangs off the back of a ship. Know your enemy.

Hangs off the front... From The "Jack staff" or the pole on the bow of a warship.

Only then is it the Union Jack. In all other uses its the Union Flag...

DEFTLEFTHAND

dubscottie wrote: »

Hangs off the front... From The "Jack staff" or the pole on the bow of a warship.

Only then is it the Union Jack. In all other uses its the Union Flag...

Merchant vessels fly their flags from the stern. I wasn't aware that warships differ, surely they also fly a flag at the stern?

kabakuyu

Time to take down the flags and make a few bob,flog them on *bay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ulster-Volunteer-Force-100th-anniversary-flag-very-limited-uvf-orange-order-36th-/161014847199?pt=UK_Collectables_Badges_Patches_MJ&hash=item257d3b96df#ht_44wt_1129