Croke Park deal to fail

SB2013

schnitzelEater wrote: »

No increments then?

You live a sheltered life if you don't know anyone who has been made redundant. Another example of blinkered PS.

Those increments are real cash cows. Had one tow years ago and i get another one in three years. That's the end of them for me.

Phill Ewinn

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Fine, "When".

Happened a few times now. What do I do? Go back to the agency and wait for something. Few more months of work is better than complaining to an employer you could be working for again in a years time.

Means Of Escape

Gmol wrote: »

serious question what is the alternative? Forget about the bank debt, we are overspending on our day to day costs of running the country. It's either raise taxes or reduce spending

Abolish Seanad,hit PS senior level workers earning over 100k,tax betting,farm out hardened criminals to Columbia and San Salvador for half the price ,fast track the introduction of National Identity cards and police it's use effectively,cut social welfare benefits ,reduce the number of TDs by 30 percent and no I vouched expenses allowed for the remainder,reduce the price of petrol to encourage travel,reduce the numbers of grants in all sectors,limit the fees charged by solicitors for tribunals,reduce the motorway tolls,develop centralised receipt system for all businesses,deport immigrants who commit murder,police the airports and arriving passengers and their documents more thoroughly the list is endless
The examples of wanton waste over the past decade by the leading parties to top all this is beyond belief.

Phoebas

MMAGirl wrote: »

Sure myself and everyone I know bar the PS has had raises over the last few years.

Seriously? You don't know any private sector worker who has taken a pay cut, or lost their job or even has had their wages remain static?

You are living in a bubble.

schnitzelEater

Don't forget to sack the entire Department of Finance and Central Bank as they are not fit for purpose and fell asleep at the wheel.

road_high

Bring on the strikes etc...will save even more money as they won't have to pay for the down time...win win.

end of the road

syklops wrote: »

Shame Margaret Thatcher died. We could use her now on the unions.

no thanks, our boys and girls in the unions are vital to protect the interests of our boys and girls in the public service, they must be able to do whatever they can to protect the workers at all costs

Lord TSC

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Happened a few times now. What do I do? Go back to the agency and wait for something. Few more months of work is better than complaining to an employer you could be working for again in a years time.

So you don't fight for your position? You don't want to see the best for your chosen profession? You don't fight for the best living you can provide yourself? And what if the agency told you that you'd never get a position in your chosen field again? Would you simply accept that without arguing your case and doing everything possible? You just give up?

That's the big problem in Ireland I find sometimes. People come online and moan about politicians making their lives tougher, being unfair, being useless, but do nothing about it. The public sector is actually in a position to do something about the poor job the government are doing, and suddenly everyone is on the side of the government. Do people not realise that a decline in standards and conditions for teachers, Gardai, nurses. Doctors et al means a decline in standards and conditions for the public? That, a lot of times, such strikes and votes are in the best interest of the public, if not in the short term then definitely in the long run?

No. Easier to moan about people who are actually doing something about declining standards and conditions and actually trying to take action against the government. Easier to expect us to not just bend over and take it, but be happy about it, and ask for more.

smash

Mick ah wrote: »

Nobody wants to be cut.

But if you have no money, what's the alternative? Borrow to pay wages?

And what about those who use their wages to pay for their houses and families? Should we just say fcuk them and watch even more people hit the poverty line?

MMAGirl

Phoebas wrote: »

Seriously? You don't know any private sector worker who has taken a pay cut, or lost their job or even has had their wages remain static?

You are living in a bubble.

What's redundancy got to do with it. Anyone I know who was made redundant got a nice payout and walked into another job. They were actually better off. Sorry cant say I know anyone but ps workers who got pay cuts.
I think you are living in a bubble tbh if
you expect ps workers to lose money INSTEAD of you. I'm sure they would be happy to lose an equal amount to you, but oh no, you want them to pay while you don't.

space_man

who said turkeys don't vote for Christmas!

handlemaster

smash wrote: »

And what about those who use their wages to pay for their houses and families? Should we just say fcuk them and watch even more people hit the poverty line?

thats a pyrimad scheme there

schnitzelEater

MMAGirl wrote: »

What's redundancy got to do with it. Anyone I know who was made redundant got a nice payout and walked into another job. They were actually better off. Sorry cant say I know anyone but ps workers who got pay cuts.
I think you are living in a bubble tbh if
you expect ps workers to lose money INSTEAD of you. I'm sure they would be happy to lose an equal amount to you, but oh no, you want them to pay while you don't.

We spend too much on PS. We need to cut back. Simples. We don't need to raise more taxes, we raise enough taxes.

road_high

MMAGirl wrote: »

What's redundancy got to do with it. Anyone I know who was made redundant got a nice payout and walked into another job. They were actually better off. Sorry cant say I know anyone but ps workers who got pay cuts.
I think you are living in a bubble tbh if
you expect ps workers to lose money INSTEAD of you. I'm sure they would be happy to lose an equal amount to you, but oh no, you want them to pay while you don't.

Surely the most ridiculous post of the thread so far??

martingriff

nolow wrote: »

Yes and after you complete the annual assessment you get your increment. Don't try and tell me it's peformance based!

Meanwhile in the real world everybody else has been enduring levies and tax increases, pay cuts, short time working and redundancy and they're not too worried about pension cuts and promotions because they either have none or they lost their job anyway. As for career breaks well they're available alright, permanent ones.

I'm sorry but your post highlights exactly how out of touch with reality so many people working in the PS are. What should have happened was all round pay cuts, increased working hours and redeployment or redundancy in large parts of the sector. But here you are whining about your pension and career breaks. Away from the PS, you job would be on the line and with it your house.

Seriously get a grip.

I personally am sick of reading whiny stories from people earning €65k a year about how difficult it is to make ends meet.

Far too many PS workers simply haven't grasped the reality out there. The money isn't there any more.

Ya we all earn over €65K a year do some research might be good. I am personally on €28,503 before tax a year but hell lets not let facts get in your way. Google is a great thing use it.

I agree that something has to be done with the PS. The goverment want us the ordinary workers to be in parity with the europe but when in come to there wages they would turn a blind eye. Do you honestly think cutting our wages will be all rosy or we were the reason for the economic woes? I know a lot of people who voted NO simple because why would you vote for your own cuts. If they are going to impose cuts then let them do it themselves.

schnitzelEater

road_high wrote: »

Surely the most ridiculous post of the thread so far??

Not far off it.

namloc1980

MMAGirl wrote: »

What's redundancy got to do with it. Anyone I know who was made redundant got a nice payout and walked into another job. They were actually better off. Sorry cant say I know anyone but ps workers who got pay cuts.
I think you are living in a bubble tbh if
you expect ps workers to lose money INSTEAD of you. I'm sure they would be happy to lose an equal amount to you, but oh no, you want them to pay while you don't.

So everyone you know who was made redundant simply 'walked' into another job and I presume they got a payrise as well I suppose? I've seen some BS on boards in my time but you take the biscuit!

You fail to realise that PS workers are paid by the state and the state can't afford the bill. What private companies pay their employees is of no concern to the state.

martingriff

syklops wrote: »

Shame Margaret Thatcher died. We could use her now on the unions.

She tackled private unions not the public ones.

tails_naf

HondaSami wrote: »

Not everyone in the PS earns €65, there is a huge amount of low paid workers and these are the ones who have and will suffer the most.
Far too many people think all PS workers earn **** loads of money, they don't.

Well we constantly hear that the PS have taken a 14% cut on average, but to be cut by that much you have to be making around 65k.

So which is it - avg 14% and 65k, or lower %cut and wage. It can't be both

squod

schnitzelEater wrote: »

Don't forget to sack the entire Department of Finance and Central Bank as they are not fit for purpose and fell asleep at the wheel.

Didn't fall asleep. Knew well what they were doing.

1hottmofo

MMAGirl wrote: »

What's redundancy got to do with it. Anyone I know who was made redundant got a nice payout and walked into another job. They were actually better off. Sorry cant say I know anyone but ps workers who got pay cuts.
I think you are living in a bubble tbh if
you expect ps workers to lose money INSTEAD of you. I'm sure they would be happy to lose an equal amount to you, but oh no, you want them to pay while you don't.

Your on the wind up

end of the road

nolow wrote: »

Public opinion will rapidly turn against the unions

that happened years ago, as the recession came in people turned on those who stood up for themselves or who tried to get a better deal or keep the deal they had, should the public service go on strike the public wouldn't be able to do anything about it only put up and shut up, they do it for everything else so why would strikes be any different? public opinion doesn't change much in this country anyway so the unions have nothing to fear thankfully

dotsman

Always number 1 wrote: »

I'm sick to death of hearing this sh1t about "I'm not paying extra tax so the public servants don't get cut" and "public servants should have their pay cut/be sacked/suck it up etc; etc;"
What about: http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/bank-salaries-on-the-rise-but-overall-take-home-pay-plummets-225285.html
How much of our taxes (yes, public servants pay tax too) will we have to pay to get the Troika off our backs and yet the salaries of the bank staff keep increasing?

Did you even read the article? You sure as $hit didn't read the report. You don't even need to read the article - it's in the headline:

Irish Examiner wrote:

Bank salaries on the rise but overall take-home pay plummets

If you were to read the article/report you would find a few little gems such as:

• Pay is significantly down.
• Pay is below the European average.
• Salary costs, on a whole have been dramatically reduced.
• There have been massive staff redundancies.
• Banks are experiencing large staff turnover (outside of the redundancy programmes).
• Banks are experiencing retaining/recruiting staff in key specialist positions.

I'm not quite sure how that fits in with the PS/CS where:

• Pay is significantly above European average.
• there have been no significant savings in overall salary costs.
• There is an abundance of qualified prospective employees begging to get in the door of the PS/CS.

Paying back the troika comes later. First we have to stop borrowing from them. But we can't do that until we dramatically cut our public expenditure. It is ridiculous that, 5 years on, there are still some people who actually believe that we should still be spending what we were spending 5-6 years ago. When are people going to realise - this is not about whether you (or a close friend/family member) works for the PS/CS, so please let nobody take this personally - we simply do not have the money!

schnitzelEater

squod wrote: »

Didn't fall asleep. Knew well what they were doing.

And cost us countless billions in the process.

How many of those lads were sacked I wonder?

Uncle Ben

road_high wrote: »

Bring on the strikes etc...will save even more money as they won't have to pay for the down time...win win.

Don't think there will be any strikes. Reversal to pre CPA1 terms and conditions, work to rule, go slows, refusal of o/t, passport office delays, thats probably how it will pan out. Or else, Jack, Brendan, Liam and the boys will all sit around between now and June, tweak a few conditions, present the new deal, it gets passed and everyone's happy, including the troika.

TheRealPONeil

Sergeant wrote: »

I'd rather have a long winter of discontent and a FG/FF coalition than have my kids and grandkids paying increased taxes for the next 40 years, as we didn't have the balls to deal with the massive overweight elephant in the room - public sector pay and pensions.

But Enda has given you a guarantee that he won't raise your income tax !!

martingriff

I am in the CPSU. I just decided to try and get my point across. Firstly may I say I am not hear to moan just some facts as I see it. I am leaving my pay scale to see for everyone. If you want to see all the wages I suggest google as to large to post here.

Clerical Officer Standard Scale 23,177 24,255 25,339 26,420 27,502 28,583 29,635 30,688 31,743 32,795 33,840 35,471 36,753 37,341

I am on point 6 which is €28,583 and will not be at the top for another 12 years if it stayed like this (which it will not. There are a lot of hard working people in the public service and they get sick of hearing we are all lazy bums we are not. A lot actually get sick of the fact the lazy bums get the same pay as they do and know how to play the system and keep there job (yes it is possible to lose it hard but possible). In 34 years time I will get a good (not a great) pension. I am glad the deal is not going through if the union want to impose pay cuts then they should have the balls to do it themselves. I mean who here would vote to impose stricter conditions then you have got on yourselves. I heard they want the PS to be in parity like in Europe should they look at there own wages and the wages in the semi state bodies and quangos in Europe also.

The only 2 question I have to ask is do people thing that the PS is responsible for the financial woes we got into (because some on here sure think so) and 2 do you think just cutting the PS worker wages will solve the woes.

Thanks

Martingriff
Revenue

Pappa Charlie

Brian Hayes is getting his hole opened by Mary Lou on prime time, Bring on howlin!

Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben wrote: »

Don't think there will be any strikes. Reversal to pre CPA1 terms and conditions, work to rule, go slows, refusal of o/t, passport office delays, thats probably how it will pan out. Or else, Jack, Brendan, Liam and the boys will all sit around between now and June, tweak a few conditions, present the new deal, it gets passed and everyone's happy, including the troika.

After listening to Brian on primetime, the new cpa3 does seem to be the way forward.

''What 7% cut??''

Bullseye1

We all agree that the deficit has to be reduced whether by reduction in numbers of the PS or reduction in wages. It's preferable to keep people in work. But if we are going to cut their wages we also have to bring down the cost of living. Fuel, electricity, home heating, food etc is all too high. Government can reduce VAT and duty on fuels. As others have rightly pointed out by reducing PS wages we reduce disposable income which has a knockon effect on the private sector. Wages also need to be reduced further in the private sector also but by not tackling inflation on standard of living reductions in wages would be devisating. We can also expect the numbers defaulting on the mortgages to increase.

Some of the more recent taxes espically carbon taxes effect lower income families more as they are less likely to buy new cars or invest in upgrading their properties through better insulation.

martingriff

Anthony16 wrote: »

Like you,I am really hoping howlin will follow through on his threat of cuts across the board.The worst thing about this rejection is that the pay cuts were only intended for those earning over 65k. The top 10% of all income earners are in this category. High paid public servants still expect the private sector to foot the bill.It has to come to an end. Hopefully now will be the time

You do know that anyone on shift work were been cut regardless of what wage they were on. You also you that those who were over €65K would be brought up to €65K if the cuts brought them over it. Which meant and I do agree it way not have been many but some one on less than €65K could lose more than on someone over 65K

Busted Flat.

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Brian Hayes is getting his hole opened by Mary Lou on prime time, Bring on howlin!

Don't mention that in front of Howlin.

Hootanany

martingriff wrote: »

I am in the CPSU. I just decided to try and get my point across. Firstly may I say I am not hear to moan just some facts as I see it. I am leaving my pay scale to see for everyone. If you want to see all the wages I suggest google as to large to post here.

Clerical Officer Standard Scale 23,177 24,255 25,339 26,420 27,502 28,583 29,635 30,688 31,743 32,795 33,840 35,471 36,753 37,341

I am on point 6 which is €28,583 and will not be at the top for another 12 years if it stayed like this (which it will not. There are a lot of hard working people in the public service and they get sick of hearing we are all lazy bums we are not. A lot actually get sick of the fact the lazy bums get the same pay as they do and know how to play the system and keep there job (yes it is possible to lose it hard but possible). In 34 years time I will get a good (not a great) pension. I am glad the deal is not going through if the union want to impose pay cuts then they should have the balls to do it themselves. I mean who here would vote to impose stricter conditions then you have got on yourselves. I heard they want the PS to be in parity like in Europe should they look at there own wages and the wages in the semi state bodies and quangos in Europe also.

The only 2 question I have to ask is do people thing that the PS is responsible for the financial woes we got into (because some on here sure think so) and 2 do you think just cutting the PS worker wages will solve the woes.

Thanks

Martingriff
Revenue

How many sick days do you take.

MMAGirl

namloc1980 wrote: »

So everyone you know who was made redundant simply 'walked' into another job and I presume they got a payrise as well I suppose? I've seen some BS on boards in my time but you take the biscuit!

You fail to realise that PS workers are paid by the state and the state can't afford the bill. What private companies pay their employees is of no concern to the state.

Can't help it if I only know employable people. Anyone I know on the dole has been on the dole for the past 10 years at least.
The state can't afford the bill because they are too scared to attack everyone equally. So they pick on one sector only.

rn

I think I'm happy enough that its gone to be honest. Its very hard to see how the significant savings can be achieved without redundancies and an ability to slash and consolidate regional offices around the country, without having to redistribute staff.

To address two questions martingriff, certainly public servants are not to blame for the woes - but you did benefit through pay rises from partnership built on the record tax take on the back of the good times gamble - one that your colleagues in the public sector failed to regulate adequately. To answer the 2nd question, quiet frankly, yes cutting your wages will help address the gap in the tax take v the current expenditure. You have to get costs under control.

To be honest this is no victory for unions. Because their members can't afford to go on strike for any length of time - their members will be docked pay. Work to rule will only serve to alienate further the unions from people outside the public sector - while our taxes are used to both pay the public sector bill and service the money borrowed to pay the public sector bill...

martingriff

Hootanany wrote: »

How many sick days do you take.

I have taken 4 months in the last 6 years 2 and a half months of the was due to been knocked down by a car and the rest due to been a suffer of debilitating migraines flue and surgeries. Not everyone is a waster

TheRealPONeil

Hootanany wrote: »

How many sick days do you take.

If you want to get personal with a self declared public sector worker, and in the interest of clarity, can you let us know how many sick days you've taken yourself ??

Smidge

KCC wrote: »

reviewing school feeding in disadvantaged areas so that kids are just given what they need (why the F do they need a "hot breakfast"?),

Smidge wrote: »

So your outgoings are minimum 2150.00 euro pm but I assume as you are putting diesel into the car and driving it, you are also paying the car tax and maintenance. So lets add maybe 200 euro pm on those two. So that brings you up to 2350.00 pm.
Then at a rough estimate we add on another 300 pm for all other miscellaneous bills listed above.
That brings you to 2650.00 pm.
And this is AFTER a 1000.00 pay drop!!

You dont think everyone else has food, electric, mortgage yada yada to pay?

On a hell of a lot less than a very conservative estimate of 2650.00 pm(and we can safely assume your OH is working and bringing in an income also).


And you want to get rid of giving the poorest kids in society their ONLY hot meal, probably only meal at all,(among some other ridiculous ideas)as another way of saving money to avoid PS pay cuts?

I'm gobsmacked.

Didn't add in quote

Pappa Charlie

TheRealPONeil wrote: »

If you want to get personal with a self declared public sector worker, and in the interest of clarity, can you let us know how many sick days you've taken yourself ??

Private sector workers love to remain anomomous here, pity a few wouldn't have the balls to state their occupations and see how they hold up for scrunity, but that speaks for itself!!!

namloc1980

MMAGirl wrote: »

Can't help it if I only know employable people. Anyone I know on the dole has been on the dole for the past 10 years at least.
The state can't afford the bill because they are too scared to attack everyone equally. So they pick on one sector only.

The state is THE employer for the PS, and they are bust! They are not attacking anything, they are looking to reduce costs, just as any employer does when it's bust!

smash

MMAGirl wrote: »

Can't help it if I only know employable people. Anyone I know on the dole has been on the dole for the past 10 years at least.

So clearly you don't only know employable people...

martingriff

TheRealPONeil wrote: »

If you want to get personal with a self declared public sector worker, and in the interest of clarity, can you let us know how many sick days you've taken yourself ??

I honestly have no problem answering his question I have nothing to hide. Some PS workers on here get very defensive about answering question.

kippy

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Private sector workers love to remain anomomous here, pity a few wouldn't have the balls to state their occupations and see how they hold up for scrunity, but that speaks for itself!!!

In fairness there's no way to vet the honesty of ANY of the posters here when it comes to what they say about themselves........
Either way, it isn't that relevant.
Private sector can do what they wish.......

rn

The one point I would have to sympathize with public and civil sector workers is that not one person has been fired or served time for consequences of the financial melt down. Its also inexcusable that so many of them are getting to run off to the UK or the US to avail of a "handy" bankruptcy, will assets are hidden - out of reach via relatives or out right hiding of assets, until the proceedings are over... all the while the legal profession is getting more and more money for "untangling" the web of lies.

It looks like end is near for the Government. Labour surely won't be able to stomach these cuts. Could we be looking at a SF government shortly?

TheRealPONeil

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Private sector workers love to remain anomomous ...

a comparative start might be http://www.cpl.ie/content/SalaryGuide/
or
http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Country=Ireland/Salary

Pappa Charlie

kippy wrote: »

In fairness there's no way to vet the honesty of ANY of the posters here when it comes to what they say about themselves........
Either way, it isn't that relevant.
Private sector can do what they wish.......

I agree, there's a lot of Walter mittys floating about!

SB2013

tails_naf wrote: »

Well we constantly hear that the PS have taken a 14% cut on average, but to be cut by that much you have to be making around 65k.

So which is it - avg 14% and 65k, or lower %cut and wage. It can't be both

Em...do you not know what a percentage is? You can have 14% taken from 30k as well as 65k

kippy

rn wrote: »

The one point I would have to sympathize with public and civil sector workers is that not one person has been fired or served time for consequences of the financial melt down. Its also inexcusable that so many of them are getting to run off to the UK or the US to avail of a "handy" bankruptcy, will assets are hidden - out of reach via relatives or out right hiding of assets, until the proceedings are over... all the while the legal profession is getting more and more money for "untangling" the web of lies.

It looks like end is near for the Government. Labour surely won't be able to stomach these cuts. Could we be looking at a SF government shortly?

Yep,
This is a big problem I have to be honest, and a problem every citizen in this country should have.
In the midst of everything many many people have slipped under the radar to either retire/quit on golden handshakes and extreme pensions, move abroad, or become embroiled in criminal cases that will take years to run their course.
All this doesn't of course take any pressure off savings required etc however as far as optics, morality and the legal system go it's completely wrong.

Lord TSC

martingriff wrote: »

I honestly have no problem answering his question I have nothing to hide. Some PS workers on here get very defensive about answering question.

PS workers get defensive because we are constantly under attack.

As for people calling for redundancies, I think that's so short sighted; you do realise hospitals, schools, garda stations, etc are already horribly understaffed? I get the logic being used with regards redundancies, I do. But to think just firing a tonne of people will help matters instead of actually making things worse is ignorant.

And as for a SF government....while I don't particularly like the idea of one, at least I know where they stand, thanks to a reply from Gerry Adam's office saying they were firmly against the CP2 agreement.

spank_inferno

martingriff wrote: »

Clerical Officer Standard Scale 23,177 24,255 25,339 26,420 27,502 28,583 29,635 30,688 31,743 32,795 33,840 35,471 36,753 37,341

I am on point 6 which is €28,583

Why do you get paid more for doing the same work year after year?

Surely if you want to be paid more, you get a promotion, or change jobs.

(also, 28k for admin work is very good money.