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Tenants leaving - problems with last month's rent

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  • 16-04-2013 4:46pm
    #1
    SineadMarie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 208 ✭✭


    Current tenants in our house are constantly late with their rent we’ve been very accommodating but I find myself chasing them for the rent on a monthly basis which is a pain!

    Their lease is up mid-May and I have decided not to renew it for a few reasons. We have given them notice and all. As usual the last month’s rent was due and no payment has been made it is now 5days overdue, I have tried to contact them but received no reply. I finally got in touch today with one of the tenants, he became aggressive almost to me claiming I agreed it was ok to pay the last month’s rent with their deposit which I have not agreed to, he then went to say that the house was in bits due to the last tenants which I am only hearing about now, I also inspected the property before they moved in last year and all seemed to be ok.

    I replaced mattresses, the fridge and the shower for them last year anything else wasn’t an issue as far as I was concerned. I explained today that the last month’s rent is now overdue and he is basically refusing to pay it for fear he doesn’t get his deposit back saying that I am broke or something. Has anyone had any problems with this before and how the best way to deal with it?


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    #2
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    That is difficult to read due font and missing spacing.

    The upshot is you really can't do anything. Make sure you have some form of contact other than mobile numbers such as work addresses.

    From what you have said I would insist on an inspection now. Try to establish now what they should repair in the hopes they actually fix it. Send them a letter registered say you have not agreed to using the deposit as rent.

    Ultimately they can ignore it all and you can't do anything. Once they leave take photos of all damage and bring a case against them later if need be.

    Do you have photos from when you let it to them? If not lesson learned and do it for the next tenants. List of items and condition? Again lesson learned do it for next tenant.

    Be warned a tenant that has nothing to lose may do damage when leaving out of spite. Be there the day they move out and change the locks when you get the keys back. Use the lock and keys another time and preferable on a different door.


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    #3
    dissed doc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    You have the right, as landlord, to receive the correct rent on the day it is due. Make an account of all the transgressions by the tenant on this.

    You can withhold the deposit if you have been left with outstanding bills or rent, or if there is damage beyond normal wear and tear.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html

    If the damage and failed rent payments are together more than the deposit paid, maybe you could sue them for the remainder, along with the costs associated with lost business.


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    #4
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    dissed doc wrote: »
    If the damage and failed rent payments are together more than the deposit paid, maybe you could sue them for the remainder, along with the costs associated with lost business.
    ...maybe, if you have money to burn on expensive legal proceedings that is.


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    #5
    the world wonders
    Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭the world wonders


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    ...
    This is all good advice. There's very little you can do, so you need to forget about getting back at them or even getting the money owed to you, and focus on minimising your losses.

    You should also to start the official rent arrears procedure, in case they decide they're not going to move out after all.


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    #6
    gibo_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 782 ✭✭✭gibo_ie


    Not nothing you can do!! Lodge a complaint against them with www.PRTB.ie they are supposed to be neutral but make sure you list everything that is damaged once they move out (if anything). The PRTB are supposed to be there for both sides but don't count on it unfortunately. all the same it costs nothing!
    Start by registering a dispute right now: http://public.prtb.ie/disputesFAQs.htm#d1


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    #7
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    SineadMarie wrote: »
    Current tenants in our house are constantly late with theirrent we’ve been very accommodating but I find myself chasing them for the renton a monthly basis which is a pain! Their lease is up mid-May and I havedecided not to renew it for a few reasons. We have given them notice and all.As usual the last month’s rent was due and no payment has been made it is now 5days overdue, I have tried to contact them but received no reply. I finally gotin touch today with one of the tenants, he became aggressive almost to meclaiming I agreed it was ok to pay the last month’s rent with their depositwhich I have not agreed to, he then went to say that the house was in bits dueto the last tenants which I am only hearing about now, I also inspected theproperty before they moved in last year and all seemed to be ok. I replacedmattresses, the fridge and the shower for them last year anything else wasn’tan issue as far as I was concerned. I explained today that the last month’srent is now overdue and he is basically refusing to pay it for fear he doesn’t gethis deposit back saying that I am broke or something. Has anyone had anyproblems with this before and how the best way to deal with it?
    I am assuming that you do not know that the tenants are entitled under the RTA 2004 to remain in the property for up to 4 years without signing a new lease.

    I also fear that your Notice of Termination is invalid. It must contain specific information including the reason for the termination and must be on one or more of the grounds as set out in the RTA 2004.

    If you have served an invalid NoT (even believing it to be correct), it could cost you thousands of euros in damages awarded to the tenants.

    If the tenants are in arrears then you must issue a 14 day notice of arrears. If unpaid within the 14 days you then proceed to serve a Notice of Termination with a notice period of 28 days.

    If the tenant fails to vacate or there is rent arrears or damage to the property then you have to make a claim with the PRTB for the money owed. You will have to have indisputable proof that the tenants caused the damage - this is usually done by way of an entry inventory of the property showing each and every item and its condition and the condition of walls, doors, floors, ceilings, windows, furniture, along with photos and/or video etc.

    However, if you have put new items in the property immediately prior to the letting, and have receipts/invoices this should prove that those items were in good condition.


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    #8
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    odds_on wrote: »

    If you have served an invalid NoT (even believing it to be correct), it could cost you thousands of euros in damages awarded to the tenants.

    .

    While this is possible if somebody objects to the request to leave it doesn't make much difference if the person accepts it. Yes it is the law but LL and tenants can agree without any legal problems.

    You won't find a legal case where the tenant agreed to move and then brought a case based on this.


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    #9
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    While this is possible if somebody objects to the request to leave it doesn't make much difference if the person accepts it. Yes it is the law but LL and tenants can agree without any legal problems.

    You won't find a legal case where the tenant agreed to move and then brought a case based on this.
    Yes, I agree absolutely, Ray.

    However, there is nothing stopping a tenant turning round and saying that he never agreed to move out, just as the tenant is now trying to claim about using the deposit as the last month's rent.

    As always, which many landlords and most tenants fail to do is to get everything in writing - just for the record. And where it is an agreement between the two parties, that both parties sign it.


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    #10
    SineadMarie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 208 ✭✭SineadMarie


    They have agreed to pay the rent in two weeks. We have agreed to this but have advised them that we will be doing a pre inspection of the house few days before they say theyre paying the rent in case it's actually a case that they're leaving early and trying to pull a fast one. They have agreed to move out as there lease is up and they wanted to relocate anyway. I would of been happy if the tenants discussed this me i.e. using there deposit as last months rent but its the first i'm hearing about it we could of come to some agreement i do understand its difficult when a deposit is needed for the new property! Rent has been constantly late with no phone call or text to let me know, at the end of the day i'm trying to handle this the best i can but we do have a mortgage to pay. I think i have been very fair and accomodating i will be just happy when they're gone. Thanks to all for advice.


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    #11
    burke027
    Registered Users Posts: 501 ✭✭✭burke027


    To be honest this seems to be the new thing. And if I'm being honest I think it's fair I had a landlord mess me around over my deposit a few years ago claiming the house was destroyed. When in fact the house was in a hell of a lot better condition then when I moved in. I ended up painting all the walls back to cream and laying some wooden floors as the carpet was filthy and we where expecting our baby. I even changed the blinds because there was mold on the old ones. I done all this because I liked the house and wanted to make it as comfortable as possible. The landlord was rouge and refused to give me the deposit back and kept fobbing me off. For that reason alone I now tell the land lords at the end of my contract if I'm moving out that they can use the deposit. As I've said once bitten twice shy.


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    #12
    SineadMarie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 208 ✭✭SineadMarie


    The landlord does not have to accept this though. I am not one of these landlord that would try hold onto someones deposit if the house has been left in good condition and all bills are covered i am happy to return it in full to the tenants straight away.


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    #13
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    SineadMarie wrote: »
    They have agreed to pay the rent in two weeks. We have agreed to this but have advised them that we will be doing a pre inspection of the house few days before they say theyre paying the rent in case it's actually a case that they're leaving early and trying to pull a fast one. They have agreed to move out as there lease is up and they wanted to relocate anyway. I would of been happy if the tenants discussed this me i.e. using there deposit as last months rent but its the first i'm hearing about it we could of come to some agreement i do understand its difficult when a deposit is needed for the new property! Rent has been constantly late with no phone call or text to let me know, at the end of the day i'm trying to handle this the best i can but we do have a mortgage to pay. I think i have been very fair and accomodating i will be just happy when they're gone. Thanks to all for advice.

    Its been said before, but make sure that everything that has been agreed to is fully in writing and signed by both parties, especially where they have agreed to move at the end of the lease. You do not want to leave anything to chance that they will try and claim an illegal eviction or whatever after they move out, especially considering that you have issued them with a notice of termination that, from what I can see, has no legal basis whatsoever.


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    #14
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    burke027 wrote: »
    To be honest this seems to be the new thing. And if I'm being honest I think it's fair

    Its not a bit fair. There are dodgy landlords out there, but they are not all dodgy. The deposit is supposed to be the landlords safeguard against any financial shortfall they have been left by the tenant (damage, unpaid bills etc); if the tenant tries to use the deposit as the last months rent then the landlord has nothing to fall back on should they need to carry out repairs or whatever. I know they can claim through the PRTB and they might get lucky and see their money several months down the line, but its hardly a fair solution.

    I know tenants will have stories like yours and use them as justification for withholding the last months rent, and to be honest I completely understand where you are coming from, but dont try and pretend that its fair practice, because what you are doing is basically no better than a dodgy landlord withholding your deposit; if you have left the property (and I dont mean you personally!) in a state that would require a deduction from the deposit, then you have very much unfairly left a landlord out of pocket.


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    #15
    burke027
    Registered Users Posts: 501 ✭✭✭burke027


    Ok I accept your point. But the situation needs a radical overhaul. But there are seriously bad landlords out there and a lot of people no that. So u think its fair what happened me. I needed my deposit to put towards my deposit for the new place and instead I had to borrow from a friend in order to get the required monies together. Now I'm lucky to be able to afford to pay that back. But you look at all the others that ain't able to and that landlords do this all the time and also intimidate tenants.
    As I said there are also plenty of decent ones out there to. But it is always the bad cases that are highlighted and there seem to be lots of them.
    My advice is to keep the deposit as they said and get them out of the property ASAP.
    Try keep the costs to a minimum and then cut ur loss and put it down to a learning curve.


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    #16
    SineadMarie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 208 ✭✭SineadMarie


    Also they've had 3 months notice that the lease would not be extended we issues them with it in writing also.


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    #17
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    SineadMarie wrote: »
    Also they've had 3 months notice that the lease would not be extended we issues them with it in writing also.

    It doesnt matter how much notice you issued them; you cant turn around and tell a tenant that at the end of the lease we will not be renewing and you must vacate. The best you can do is not renew the lease, and when then issue the tenant notice of termination under the terms of the part 4 tenancy. Under these terms however there are a number of specific reasons set out for termination, and if you are not issues a notice of termination for one of those reasons then it is not valid. See the link below for more details.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

    If you want to use the late payment of rent as a reason for terminating the lease then you must follow the proper procedure for doing so (as outlined by odds_on above).


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    #18
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    burke027 wrote: »
    Ok I accept your point. But the situation needs a radical overhaul. But there are seriously bad landlords out there and a lot of people no that. So u think its fair what happened me. I needed my deposit to put towards my deposit for the new place and instead I had to borrow from a friend in order to get the required monies together. Now I'm lucky to be able to afford to pay that back. But you look at all the others that ain't able to and that landlords do this all the time and also intimidate tenants.
    As I said there are also plenty of decent ones out there to. But it is always the bad cases that are highlighted and there seem to be lots of them.
    My advice is to keep the deposit as they said and get them out of the property ASAP.
    Try keep the costs to a minimum and then cut ur loss and put it down to a learning curve.

    Im not for a second suggesting what happened to you is fair, and I completely understand where you are coming from, but you have to understand that not every landlord is dodgy, and if you turn around and pull that trick of not paying the last months rent to a landlord, and you have caused damage to their property, then you are basically no better than the landlord who tries to unjustly withhold a tenants deposit. Im sure most tenants would try to make right any damage even if they were withholding the last months rent, but there are a lot who would just tell the landlord where to go with themselves.

    Basically, Im not disagreeing with your logic, I just dont think that its right to say that its fair practice!


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    #19
    Lyn256
    Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭Lyn256


    I'm a tenant and have been in the property that I'm in for the last two and a half years. My landlord collects the rent in person every month. Its due on the 1st and he texts me around that day to ask me when he can call. (He's above board and we're registered)
    We get on well and the reason he collects the rent in person is that after 14 years as a landlord he's had every type of tenant and at least this way he gets paid and he (usually gets to have a quick look at the house when he comes into sign the rent book)

    Just something to keep in mind for future tenants.

    (Also my friends husband is a landlord and he also collects in person too-same reason)


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    #20
    SineadMarie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 208 ✭✭SineadMarie


    burke027 wrote: »
    Ok I accept your point. But the situation needs a radical overhaul. But there are seriously bad landlords out there and a lot of people no that. So u think its fair what happened me. I needed my deposit to put towards my deposit for the new place and instead I had to borrow from a friend in order to get the required monies together. Now I'm lucky to be able to afford to pay that back. But you look at all the others that ain't able to and that landlords do this all the time and also intimidate tenants.
    As I said there are also plenty of decent ones out there to. But it is always the bad cases that are highlighted and there seem to be lots of them.
    My advice is to keep the deposit as they said and get them out of the property ASAP.
    Try keep the costs to a minimum and then cut ur loss and put it down to a learning curve.

    Think its terrible what happened to you totally unfair karma will come back and bite him for that.


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    #21
    SineadMarie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 208 ✭✭SineadMarie


    Lyn256 wrote: »
    I'm a tenant and have been in the property that I'm in for the last two and a half years. My landlord collects the rent in person every month. Its due on the 1st and he texts me around that day to ask me when he can call. (He's above board and we're registered)
    We get on well and the reason he collects the rent in person is that after 14 years as a landlord he's had every type of tenant and at least this way he gets paid and he (usually gets to have a quick look at the house when he comes into sign the rent book)

    Just something to keep in mind for future tenants.

    (Also my friends husband is a landlord and he also collects in person too-same reason)

    Yea good point, my ex has decided to move in now we have the house together but have gone our seperate ways so i won't have this problem in the future


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    #22
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    burke027 wrote: »
    To be honest this seems to be the new thing. And if I'm being honest I think it's fair I had a landlord mess me around over my deposit a few years ago claiming the house was destroyed. When in fact the house was in a hell of a lot better condition then when I moved in. I ended up painting all the walls back to cream and laying some wooden floors as the carpet was filthy and we where expecting our baby. I even changed the blinds because there was mold on the old ones. I done all this because I liked the house and wanted to make it as comfortable as possible. The landlord was rouge and refused to give me the deposit back and kept fobbing me off. For that reason alone I now tell the land lords at the end of my contract if I'm moving out that they can use the deposit. As I've said once bitten twice shy.
    The time will come, as it has in England, that Irish landlords will be requesting more than 1 month's deposit to help cover this approach by tenants.

    I can envisage certain people with references that a landlord may consider as not being quite up to the make, having to pay one and a half to two times the monthly rent as a deposit.


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    #23
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    odds_on wrote: »
    The time will come, as it has in England, that Irish landlords will be requesting more than 1 month's deposit to help cover this approach by tenants.

    I can picture the scene now; three months left on a lease and the tenant is telling the landlord to keep the deposit in lieu of rent :P

    On a serious note though, before that happens we need to get a system in place where the holding of the deposit is taken out of the hands of landlords and is dealt with by a third party. Whatever about one months deposit, there is no way I would hand over a few grand of a deposit to a landlord in this country at the moment; with the stories that go around about landlords withholding deposits it would just be too much of a gamble to leave any more than a months worth with a landlord you dont know and have just started dealing with.


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    #24
    jd83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,445 ✭✭✭jd83


    The system is flawed. There are loads of dodgy landlords out their withholding deposits without good reason and loads of scumbag tenants wrecking properties and not giving landlords the chance to use the deposits to cover the costs of repair.

    PRTB needs a complete overhaul, it has to be one of the most unfit for purpose government organisations going! As the other poster said it needs to come up with a way to take the deposit out of the hands of the land lord and be held by a third party and also maybe increase the number or month or inflict harsh penalties on tenants not enabling the landlord to recoup costs of damages to property.


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    #25
    valleyoftheunos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭valleyoftheunos


    burke027 wrote: »
    To be honest this seems to be the new thing. And if I'm being honest I think it's fair.

    I can't agree with that, why should a landlord be left with no security deposit to offset any damage?
    burke027 wrote: »
    My advice is to keep the deposit as they said and get them out of the property ASAP.
    Try keep the costs to a minimum and then cut ur loss and put it down to a learning curve.

    Easily said by tenants, much tougher for LLs to actually do, especially when the the LL isn't at fault in anyway.
    djimi wrote: »
    I can picture the scene now; three months left on a lease and the tenant is telling the landlord to keep the deposit in lieu of rent :P

    On a serious note though, before that happens we need to get a system in place where the holding of the deposit is taken out of the hands of landlords and is dealt with by a third party. Whatever about one months deposit, there is no way I would hand over a few grand of a deposit to a landlord in this country at the moment; with the stories that go around about landlords withholding deposits it would just be too much of a gamble to leave any more than a months worth with a landlord you dont know and have just started dealing with.

    That would be an additional cost in a process that has too many such costs already.

    If withholding the final month's rent becomes a prevalent practice LLs are going to respond my seeking larger deposits in order to protect their properties and investments. In much of the US and Europe the Tenant pays, first month, last month and a deposit of a month's rent before moving in, that isn't a scenario that is going to assist tenants in this country.


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    #26
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    That would be an additional cost in a process that has too many such costs already.

    To be honest, Id be quite happy to pay a small fee if it meant my deposit was guaranteed secure and there was a fair process regarding final inspections and deductions.


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    #27
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    There should be a 3rd party bond system that both LL and tenant enter into. The a LL or a tenant should be able look this up, and refuse a tenant or avoid a LL who doesn't have an intact bond in place.


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    #28
    valleyoftheunos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭valleyoftheunos


    djimi wrote: »
    To be honest, Id be quite happy to pay a small fee if it meant my deposit was guaranteed secure and there was a fair process regarding final inspections and deductions.

    You might be but most tenants are of the opinion (perhaps quite rightly) that all costs related to letting a property should be borne by the LL. LLs naturally don't want to be hit with anymore compulsory costs.
    BostonB wrote: »
    There should be a 3rd party bond system that both LL and tenant enter into. The a LL or a tenant should be able look this up, and refuse a tenant or avoid a LL who doesn't have an intact bond in place.

    Well again there is going to be a cost associated with that. Furthermore neither tenants nor LLs are going to want to use a system that could see them loose out on lettings in the future.


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    #29
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    I can live with ignoring those that don't want to be tracked.


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    #30
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    You might be but most tenants are of the opinion (perhaps quite rightly) that all costs related to letting a property should be borne by the LL. LLs naturally don't want to be hit with anymore compulsory costs.

    With a scheme such as this one I would hope the majority of tenants would understand that it is in their best interests to have their deposit held by a third party, even if there is a cost involved. Especially since a lot of tenants (going by reading on here anyway) seem to have, at one time or another, been burned by a dodgy landlord.


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    #31
    valleyoftheunos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭valleyoftheunos


    BostonB wrote: »
    I can live with ignoring those that don't want to be tracked.

    Any system would have to be such that everyone can have faith in it and must not be capable of being unfairly prejudicial to either side.

    What counts as a complete bond? Even the best and most honest Tenants are sometimes liable for damage, what if they agree to a retention of part of the deposit for repairs? Does that mean they are marked as having an incomplete bond? does that mean that they could be excluded from accommodation in the future without the circumstances being considered? That would be unfairly prejudicial.


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