Gay Adoption?

Nodin

cast_iron wrote: »

No it doesn't. One is a judgement on the ability of the parents. The others is a judgement on whether such a situation is the best thing for the child. There's a subtle but distinct difference.

Load of cack. The best parents are the best parents. Theres no proof of adverse effects on the child from same sex families.

Airitech

I think it's important for a child to have strong positive role models/examples of both sexes in their lives growing up, but that doesn't necessarily have to be a parent. That should never be an obstacle to a gay couple adopting.

cast_iron

Nodin wrote: »

Load of cack. The best parents are the best parents. Theres no proof of adverse effects on the child from same sex families.

I never said there was. I don't need a study or anything other equality hocus-pocus to form the opinion that a child is better off with a mother and father over 2 fathers/2 mothers.

The fact that I am in the minority on here with that opinion says more about the demographic of AH than anything. I think this equality lark can only go so far.

Bannasidhe

Airitech wrote: »

I think it's important for a child to have strong positive role models/examples of both sexes in their lives growing up, but that doesn't necessarily have to be a parent. That should never be an obstacle to a gay couple adopting.

I agree.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Daith

cast_iron wrote: »

I never said there was. I don't need a study or anything other equality hocus-pocus to form the opinion that a child is better off with a mother and father over 2 fathers/2 mothers.

Based on no evidence whatsoever. Trust me you're not equal to me.

blatantrereg

Seachmall wrote: »

The argument that a child needs a male and female parent is clearly undermined by single parent families. And the idea that a heterosexual couple is preferential over a homosexual one is undermined by studies done on the topic.

This - post #6 - should have closed discussion on the matter really. 450 posts later and people still know better than all those journal papers and their evidence. Plain bigotry is all it is.

wonderfulname

cast_iron wrote: »

I never said there was. I don't need a study or anything other equality hocus-pocus to form the opinion that a child is better off with a mother and father over 2 fathers/2 mothers.

The fact that I am in the minority on here with that opinion says more about the demographic of AH than anything. I think this equality lark can only go so far.

If you weren't of the opinion that furthering your knowledge of a topic as to better inform you opinion amounted to 'hocus-pocus' you might be aware you are also in the minority in this country as a whole...

Bannasidhe

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

My dad will be surprised when I tell him I was raised without a father.

Do you mind if I leave breaking the bad news til tomorrow as it just happens to be his 80th birthday today so I don't want to upset him by telling him some bloke on the internet said he didn't help raise me?

He's gone out to dinner with his 74 year old girlfriend. Bless.

You are the one laying down what is ideal and how your configuration is more ideal than mine. You dragged my family into this by denigrating it against some imagined 'ideal' which you just happen, by the by, to fit.

'scuse me for calling you on it.

NuMarvel

cast_iron wrote: »

I never said there was. I don't need a study or anything other equality hocus-pocus to form the opinion that a child is better off with a mother and father over 2 fathers/2 mothers.

You realise that to say something is better or best, you actually need to research the alternatives, right? Please tell me you knew that...

darced

This post has been deleted.

Airitech

darced wrote: »

My mistake I missed a post and now realise you were talking about your own child.

The same thing stands your child wont know what it's like to have a father and will not have as rounded an upbringing.

I didnt drag your family anywhere,we are talking about adoption preference.

You are not calling me out on anything by the way.

I accept that boys need a male role model and someone they can talk to about male issues but why does that have to be a father? Uncles, grandfathers etc can be just as good in that role?

Daith

Airitech wrote: »

I accept that boys need a male role model and someone they can talk to about male issues but why does that have to be a father? Uncles, grandfathers etc can be just as good in that role?

Or teachers. Same with single mother's raising children.

And it's incredibly naive to suggest someone didn't have a balanced upbringing because they didn't have a mother and father.

pragmatic1

orestes wrote: »

No it doesn't, it's a question that shouldn't even have to be asked.

You're a question that shouldn't even have to be asked.

NTMK

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

As someone who hasn't spoken/seen to his father since i was 10 i beg to differ as i am sure a lot of people here will agree with

you don't need to have a father figure in your life to be well rounded. whatever things your father taught you i taught myself because of this and the fact that my "non-standard" family was stable i always succeeded at whatever i put my mind to. I've missed nothing due to a lack of a father figure

Its not about what your family consists of its how stable it is. to claim someones child is missing out because there is no father in the picture is plain wrong and borderline insulting

Bannasidhe

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

'I didnt drag your family anywhere'

'your child wont know what it's like to have a father and will not have as rounded an upbringing'

Would you listen to yourself?

You are now telling me that my son's upbringing was not as rounded as your childrens will be while claiming not to be denigrating my family structure.

You feel able to make this judgement call- and it is a judgement call- based on zero knowledge about my son bar the fact that he is crap at DIY (as is my 6' 5" brick sh*thouse army sergeant brother-in-law and short arse self-made millionaire brother).

I would say he is more rounded that most men as he genuinely sees women as equal, has no issue with changing nappys, cooking dinner, brushing his daughter's hair, doing the shopping and cleaning his flat.

He is a former ice hockey player (no suitable rink in Cork so he had to give it up), rugby player and showjumper.

He does volunteer work. He has spoken (by invitation) at Conferences and written extensively on the topic of unmarried father's rights.

He is also a bearded 6' 2" giant mutant footed Star Trek/Star Wars/ Battlestar / Dr Who watching, t-shirt with 'amusing' slogan wearing, gamer who complains that LOTR and GOT deviate too much from the books who gets super excited about what his samsung phone can do (zzzzzz) and spends his free time arguing with people like you on boards.ie while eating cold pizza out of the box and mainlining coffee- he also enjoys a pint or two.....
sounds like a typical geek bloke to me in his late 20s.

Except that he has a girlfriend and a full-time job.

His girlfriend seems very pleased with how rounded he is... apart from the DIY...she's crap too so they get me to do it - as does my sister, my brother just pays someone.

Your whole opposition to gay adoption is that mummy plus daddy is better ...oops, I mean more 'ideal'...than a mummy plus mummy or a daddy plus a daddy.

My family is mummy plus mummy so yes- I do have something to call you on.

1ZRed

Airitech wrote: »

I accept that boys need a male role model and someone they can talk to about male issues but why does that have to be a father? Uncles, grandfathers etc can be just as good in that role?

I had a dad and I had none of all that growing up. What does that say about needing a male role model growing up?

He was there but he wasn't hands on. I said before that I'd would've been best had I two very involved parents instead of one. So from having both a mom and dad and being happy growing up I still say that two good, involved parents is what's best. Gender isn't important.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Bannasidhe

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Forgive me if what you say holds no water - yup, what you say is wrong again.

You did bring my family into it by saying gay parents are less than ideal.

Make such a statement and you can't complain if you get called on it and don't like it.

Sierra 117

I have to ask just what it is exactly that a mother and father bring to the table that's so necessary for a child's development? Because saying such assumes that all mothers and fathers are the exact same which isn't true.

Some mothers will be more sensitive and emotional with their kids, whilst others will be more tough love. The same is true for dads.

Some mothers will encourage their kids to play sports whilst others will encourage them to read more books. The same is true for dads.

I mean, mams and dads don't all fall into the same standardized checklist. They'll all have their own ideas as to what is best for their children which will fall in line with some parents but differ wildly with others.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Bannasidhe

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I believe same-sex parents as equal to opposite parents - there is no ideal. There are good parents and bad parents and that is not determined by sexual orientation or gender but by individual ability.

The ideal is/are parent(s) who love, care, listen, chastise, teach, play, nurture, house, feed, protect, are there and devote time to their children.
Their genitalia is immaterial.

Airitech

1ZRed wrote: »

I had a dad and I had none of all that growing up. What does that say about needing a male role model growing up?

He was there but he wasn't hands on. I said before that I'd would've been best had I two very involved parents instead of one. So from having both a mom and dad and being happy growing up I still say that two good, involved parents is what's best. Gender isn't important.

I think it is. Men and women are equal but very different. A man will never understand what is like to be a woman and vice versa.

There will be gender specific problems children encounter that would help to have someone of the same sex to talk to as well as just seeing a positive role model of that sex. One obvious example would be two gay men raising a daughter who has just begun menstruating. I'm sure you would agree that it would be helpful (but not necessary) for the daughter to have an aunt, grandmother etc. to talk to about that.

I feel many people's opinion of the roles of both sexes in bring up a child can be tainted by absent, uninvolved or abusive parents. I didn't experience that so I cant really understand what that's like.

I was lucky to have two involved, postive parents so I have seen how it is a good thing to have that in your life, particularly in the case of my father.

Some people will have all that and have difficulties in life while many who don't go on to be happy well rounded people.

Daith

Airitech wrote: »

Some people will have all that and have difficulties in life while many who don't go on to be happy well rounded people.

Sure but this isn't just a same sex marriage issue. A single Dad raising a daughter would present the same challenge.

My parents had no idea about gay stuff but I coped ;-)

K-9

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I would say he is more rounded that most men as he genuinely sees women as equal, has no issue with changing nappys, cooking dinner, brushing his daughter's hair, doing the shopping and cleaning his flat.

Those are unnatural things for fathers to do, in my day there was none of that gender swapping stuff, men worked, and women did all that. It's the natural order of things, and that's the way things should stay forever and ever!

Airitech

Daith wrote: »

Sure but this isn't just a same sex marriage issue. A single Dad raising a daughter would present the same challenge.

That's what I mean. Regardless of the context, be it a same sex couple or a single parent, a child should have a positive role model of their own sex available to them, someone who understands what they are going through at a particular time.

What I said in my first post in this thread was that this doesn't have to be a parent so it shouldn't ever be a barrier to a same sex couple adopting. But I think it is important to recognise that men and women face different challenges growing up.

I still think that a same sex couple that provide a child with a safe loving home will make good parents.

Edit: as for the parents not knowing about gay stuff that's just the same. Would you not have found it helpful to have had a gay relative or friend to talk to about things? Just goes to show that straight couples don't have the answer to everything.

Czarcasm

The way I figure it, the ideal scenario for a child is that they are surrounded by positive role models, be they male, female, heterosexual, homosexual, transgendered, transexual, again the list goes on, essentially what they all have in common is that they are human beings, but the beauty of this, is that they are all different as individuals in their own right.

They all bring something different and share their diverse life experiences and education with my child, things I will never be able to teach him in ten lifetimes, but ten people will be able to teach him about their life experiences, and increase his knowledge and understanding of the world around him.

Knowledge that will foster his understanding and respect for diversity, to treat people as individuals to avoid the pitfalls of prejudice, bigotry, racism (again the list goes on), and labelling individuals into categories and groups, because no two individuals are exactly the same as each other.

Bannasidhe

K-9 wrote: »

Those are unnatural things for fathers to do, in my day there was none of that gender swapping stuff, men worked, and women did all that. It's the natural order of things, and that's the way things should stay forever and ever!

Meh, my Mam's dad did all of that stuff too as my Nan also worked outside the home- he also taught his daughters and sons to knit, sew, iron, cook, read and polish shoes (and brass buttons) as my Nan hadn't the patience.
His son found the sock knitting/darning lessons very handy when he ended up in the Korean War, meant he always had socks. The boot/button polishing was handy too as U.S. army MP's are expected to look shiny.

cast_iron

wonderfulname wrote: »

If you weren't of the opinion that furthering your knowledge of a topic as to better inform you opinion amounted to 'hocus-pocus' you might be aware you are also in the minority in this country as a whole...

I would be a bit surprised of the majority of Irish people were in favour of gay adoption. Boards is by no means a good cross section of Irish society.

While I don't doubt gay couples are well capable of bringing up a child, I think a child is better off with a mother and father wherever is practically possible. That's not an opinion based on ignorance. It's a subjective opinion that can't e proven to be right or wrong.

wetfoot

I am of the gay, I have heterosexual parents who did their very best to ensure that I would grow up, get a reasonably healthy man with a work ethic and maybe become a part time secretary once the children were at school. I turned out to be their worst nightmare, a gay. And not only that, a short haired girl-gay, not even one of the ones that they could pass off as straight at family gatherings.

I've no real idea why, despite their best efforts, I turned out to be the opposite of the product of my upbringing. But I've read this thread and it's reminded that around the time that I started to question my sexuality in 1983, one evening that summer my father came home drunk from a work do and an hour later my mother came downstairs trembling, necked a whole glass of sherry and spat out the words "he's drunk, he's drunk and he's crossed a line". I've read this thread and I now know that he probably tried to do her up the wrong 'un and as I was in the same house obviously this act had the ripple effect of giving me transmitted by air gay-ness.

squod

wetfoot wrote: »

he probably tried to do her up the wrong 'un

Pics or GTFO. Forum rules!

1ZRed

Airitech wrote: »

I think it is. Men and women are equal but very different. A man will never understand what is like to be a woman and vice versa.

There will be gender specific problems children encounter that would help to have someone of the same sex to talk to as well as just seeing a positive role model of that sex. One obvious example would be two gay men raising a daughter who has just begun menstruating. I'm sure you would agree that it would be helpful (but not necessary) for the daughter to have an aunt, grandmother etc. to talk to about that.

I feel many people's opinion of the roles of both sexes in bring up a child can be tainted by absent, uninvolved or abusive parents. I didn't experience that so I cant really understand what that's like.

I was lucky to have two involved, postive parents so I have seen how it is a good thing to have that in your life, particularly in the case of my father.

Some people will have all that and have difficulties in life while many who don't go on to be happy well rounded people.

Well I meant gender isn't so important in the sense of parents, if you might have thought I was talking about something deeper besides that. Positive and influential role models will be what is best I think.

I agree that things might be a bit awkward but then again we don't really know. I never had same sex parents, so if I did, I could've have been very open and close to them and it mightn't have been an issue as that 'job' wouldn't have just fallen to the mother by default like in straight parents. I don't know though, it mightn't be at all. But having an auntie or grandmother there too as a bonus couldn't hurt at all, I agree.

I don't believe my view of anything has been tainted. I was stupidly happy growing up and I have a great mom, my dad is not uninvolved in a hugely bad-sounding way, it's just that he was there and supported the family very well but didn't have a very hands-on approach with me. I don't think it's distorted my view of the family unit at all because I'm old enough to understand the reasoning behind all of that.

Like I said, everything typical that you'd see on TV that involves a father teaching his son I just did myself. It wasn't an issue at all, I just got on with it. It didn't negatively affect me at all, so although it would've been welcome, it wasn't paramount.
I'm sure if I'd two very involved parents like my mother they could've even chipped in helping me and it would've been of benefit too, so really anyone at all that could be there to help you out instead of none at all is going to be a plus.

So I believe I came from a fairly conventional family and that's my view on it, baring in mind I also don't see myself as having been tainted by any aspect of it that would influence how I see the role of both sexes compared to other people such as yourself. I was happy and never really left wanting, the same as yourself it would seem.

Bannasidhe

wetfoot wrote: »

I am of the gay, I have heterosexual parents who did their very best to ensure that I would grow up, get a reasonably healthy man with a work ethic and maybe become a part time secretary once the children were at school. I turned out to be their worst nightmare, a gay. And not only that, a short haired girl-gay, not even one of the ones that they could pass off as straight at family gatherings.

I've no real idea why, despite their best efforts, I turned out to be the opposite of the product of my upbringing. But I've read this thread and it's reminded that around the time that I started to question my sexuality in 1983, one evening that summer my father came home drunk from a work do and an hour later my mother came downstairs trembling, necked a whole glass of sherry and spat out the words "he's drunk, he's drunk and he's crossed a line". I've read this thread and I now know that he probably tried to do her up the wrong 'un and as I was in the same house obviously this act had the ripple effect of giving me transmitted by air gay-ness.

Post of the Thread!

Trudiha

Thanks for sharing that, Wetfoot, it as was very brave of you. I hope that you're able to find a support group or something.

wonderfulname

cast_iron wrote: »

I would be a bit surprised of the majority of Irish people were in favour of gay adoption. Boards is by no means a good cross section of Irish society.

While I don't doubt gay couples are well capable of bringing up a child, I think a child is better off with a mother and father wherever is practically possible. That's not an opinion based on ignorance. It's a subjective opinion that can't e proven to be right or wrong.

They are, the surveys are quoted in this thread, I'd link you but I'm afraid you'd cry equality witch. Your opinion is rooted in ignorance and has been shown to be wrong, again you can find this information on thread.

NuMarvel

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Again, no it isn't. The law doesn't stop gay people applying to adopt. Nor is adoption the only way for gay couples to raise children. If you don't want gay people raising children, you're way too late.

cast_iron wrote: »

While I don't doubt gay couples are well capable of bringing up a child, I think a child is better off with a mother and father wherever is practically possible. That's not an opinion based on ignorance. It's a subjective opinion that can't e proven to be right or wrong.

Looks like you're ignorant of the definition of ignorance. An assessment of the suitability of one set of parents based on absolutely no observation or experience is literally ignorant. Your opinion is based in ignorance.

Not is it subjective either, but you're not interested in any of the reasearch hocus pocus, right?

paddy147

Do we have lots of homophobic people here on boards??

Lots of threads recently about gay people and people objecting to them and having issues with how they dress or act or even talk,even getting married or adopting now seems to be a huge issue for certain people here on this forum and in this country.

A gay person is a PERSON 1st and foremost....just like we are all persons and people.


So try and remember that part please




Get with the times and stop being so god damn homophobic.

.

StewartGriffin

anhedonia wrote: »

I believe Gay women should be allowed to adopt, but I dont believe gay men should be.

At first read this sounds a bit nuts, but when I think about it it's an interesting point.

If we forget the gay element for a moment - who would you rather adopt your child: 2 straight men living as communal partners or 2 straight women living as communal partners?

Nodin

cast_iron wrote: »

I never said there was. I don't need a study or anything other equality hocus-pocus to form the opinion that a child is better off with a mother and father over 2 fathers/2 mothers.

The fact that I am in the minority on here with that opinion says more about the demographic of AH than anything. I think this equality lark can only go so far.

Jaysus no. Them facts and that "reality"thing have been hijacked by the liberals. They might even have the cheek to be contrary to what you believe....

paddy147

StewartGriffin wrote: »

At first read this sounds a bit nuts, but when I think about it it's an interesting point.

If we forget the gay element for a moment - who would you rather adopt your child: 2 straight men living as communal partners or 2 straight women living as communal partners?

Or 2 people (regardless of gender and sexuality) who would nurture a child,love the child,give the child a propper loving upbringing and make sure that the child goes to school and grows up in a loving/caring family and safe house/enviroment.


Lots of male/female couples who cant do that for a child....but yet again we have issues here because 2 men want to raise a child together


Sexuality or gender doesnt come into it for me.


You all need to stop living in the stone age and stop being so homophobic.

StewartGriffin

Gay men are still men.
This is a fact.

Nodin

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Gay men are still men.
This is a fact.

We don't need your hocus pocus facts.

paddy147

Nodin wrote: »

We don't need your hocus pocus facts.

Whos we??



But yep,he is right.A gay man is a man.

I was shocked and gobsmacked to only learn of this now.

Thank god for the allmighty boards.ie so....:pac::D

StewartGriffin

Perhaps we should try to define what exactly "gay" is.
Most of the attitudes on this thread are based on misunderstandings.
Gay doesn't magically transform a man into some maternal being.
A gay man is no closer to being a woman than a straight man.

Seachmall

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Perhaps we should try to define what exactly "gay" is.
Most of the attitudes on this thread are based on misunderstandings.
Gay doesn't magically transform a man into some maternal being.
A gay man is no closer to being a woman than a straight man.

There are studies to suggest there are differences between a typical straight man's brain and typical gay man's brain in areas of empathy and emotions in general.

Simply taking a man and having him attracted to other men with no other psychological changes would provide little if any evolutionary benefit and would probably be detrimental to the species in general.

If there are clear distinctions it would support some current hypothesis on why gay people evolved (and survived).

wonderfulname

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Gay men are still men.
This is a fact.

It is indeed, why on earth do you think a man would be less apt as a parent solely because he is a man?

StewartGriffin

wonderfulname wrote: »

It is indeed, why on earth do you think a man would be less apt as a parent solely because he is a man?

But the question is not "Parent" but "Parents"

A Mother is a wonderful thing.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So, orientation doesn;t come into it then?

orestes

StewartGriffin wrote: »

At first read this sounds a bit nuts, but when I think about it it's an interesting point.

If we forget the gay element for a moment - who would you rather adopt your child: 2 straight men living as communal partners or 2 straight women living as communal partners?

So, in a discussion specifically about gay adoption, you want to make an interesting point by trying to forget the gay element?

Erm, are you sure you have thought this point through properly?

Corkfeen

paddy147 wrote: »

Do we have lots of homophobic people here on boards??

...

Get with the times and stop being so god damn homophobic.

.

They generally come out to lambaste the foreigners or the gay people. It would be funny if it wasn't so horrible. The even stranger part is that they blame the 'liberal media' and 'PC gone mad' and warn everyone to think of the children and shun accusations of being a bigot. It makes them sound like characters out of Father Ted. Yet, most of these posters have trouble creating what even sounds remotely like an argument.