Gay Adoption?

WayneMolloy

wonderfulname wrote: »

Doesn't really answer the question as to why people use their mistaken impression gay parents raise gay kids as an argument against same sex adoption...

I'd disagree with your point btw but it's off topic so you can PM for those opinions!

I dont oppose same sex marriage or adoption. If there was a referendum on either, I would probably abstain from voting. Its an issue that I am neutral on.

Vomit

1ZRed wrote: »

Society conditions you into thinking what is normal. Remember people thinking that the white race was superior to every other race/being on earth and everything else was abnormal and not accepted and for that to be normal thinking?

It's only in the last few thousand years with mainstream religion that the only emphasis is on man/woman relationships because it was in their benefit to promote and emphasise that. Before that differing sexualities were accepted and all was normal because it wasn't a big deal until a book said so 2000 years ago.

If you lived in Ancient Rome I doubt you'd still hold the same views as you do now as it was commonplace for both genders to experimet with the opposite and same sex. It was normal then and society made it so. Then religion changed that and ruled that out and then that was "the new normal".

And on the yin-yang point; homosexuality has it's place in evolution because if it didn't have a benefit it wouldn't still be around. There are theories that homosexuality was there as a back if the parents of a child were to get killed that they could be there to protect and raise that child. Even then it is thought there role was in protecting and providing for the rest of the community as they wouldn't have the burden of child rearing themselves. In times of food shortage that would be a big advantage to the rest of the group. It's quite logical reasoning.

That's why I do believe the more we move away from the influence of religion and look at things in a more basic and rational way will we see homosexuality as truely normal. It's kind of funny because it's actually going backwards to when it was never an issue to begin with. This is all society at work which determines what is normal. "Boy meets girl" will still be there, but there will be other options too that are just as emphasised.

I don't agee with your opinion that homosexuality will never be seen as truely normal, but I also believe progress will only move as quick as it's most stubborn opponent, so it's a long journey ahead but we'll get there eventually.

Yes we all know about ancient Rome etc. Society changes- we can cite many things from ancient times that are no longer practised, or have been outlawed/changed etc.

Your point about evolution isn't accurate - something doesn't need to exhibit an actual benefit in order for it to survive natural selection. Take Tourette's syndrome for example: no benefit, but not enough of a threat to general survival to die out.

Here's what Dawkins actually says on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHDCAllQgS0

4:37 is the main part of his understanding of the subject.

You keep talking about how Religion ruined everything, but it's not as simple as that. And please don't talk about racism...that's a different topic altogether.

Bannasidhe

wylam wrote: »

@Bannasidhe, I don't understand the point you are making. I commented on the fact that in my experience people from west cork are not as open minded as Majestic made out. Just because you know at least 1 open lesbian couple in EVERY town in west cork does not mean that the people are tolerant of their sexuality.Just because they are nice to your face doesn't mean the rumor mill isn't working overtime in the back round.And whether they have good jobs or not doesn't really seem relevant.

and I think you missed my point that if West Cork is as intolerant as you portray it lesbian couples (often with their children) would not up sticks and move there. Which they are doing. In bloody droves.

Not to mention the number of lesbians who are from West Cork and are out and proud in their home towns with no one bothering them. They are not 'incomers' - they are from West Cork and still live there by choice.

You may have had the awful experience of being treated as an 'incomer' but none of the people I know who moved have commented on any negative reaction so I cannot help but wonder if you are projecting?

Calhoun

Its actually a terrible state of affairs gay people being able to adopt, think of all the rights they would be taking away from heterosexual couples :pac: :pac: :pac:, oh wait it wont actually change anything .

I personally feel society on a whole would benefit as it would make everyone that bit more equal. Example i can think of is in family courts, if two men could adopt we could finally get away from the bias that is shown in court when a heterosexual couple get divorced and kids are involved.

Shifting the paradigm away from a gender view and more about the individual can only be a good thing.

NuMarvel

WayneMolloy wrote: »

I dont oppose same sex marriage or adoption. If there was a referendum on either, I would probably abstain from voting. Its an issue that I am neutral on.

When there is a referendum, as you're not opposed to it, I would ask that you vote yes. I know it won't affect you personally, but that vote could be the difference as to whether a friend of yours, or a family member, or even a child of yours in the future, can get married.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

and I think you missed my point that if West Cork is as intolerant as you portray it lesbian couples (often with their children) would not up sticks and move there. Which they are doing. In bloody droves.

Not to mention the number of lesbians who are from West Cork and are out and proud in their home towns with no one bothering them. They are not 'incomers' - they are from West Cork and still live there by choice.

You may have had the awful experience of being treated as an 'incomer' but none of the people I know who moved have commented on any negative reaction so I cannot help but wonder if you are projecting?

In fairness, West Cork is great to the gays. We just don't like the blow ins. Except the German blow ins, they spend big, so they're fine.

And off topic, how does a thread about gay adoption have so many posters connected to one small part of the country??

wylam

@Bannasihe, Maybe you're right, maybe the reason they seemed intolerant and pig ignorant to me is because I'm straight!!!! With all these lesbian women arriving I fear i'll end up being "the only straight in the village"

darced

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darced

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padd b1975

Madam_X wrote: »

If it's nurture, how come Boy George, whose father was a brute and brothers turned out to be tough ****ers... is queen of queens?

It could be an act of rebellion towards his macho siblings.

Perharps his ramping up of the campness was his way of saying 'in your face family!' instead of responding with the sort of behaviour tough ****ers would expect.

shopaholic01

darced wrote: »

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Be careful here Redzer, you're going to be analysed (no pun intended):

darced wrote: »

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gcgirl

The crazies are still here I see!!

You don't choose to be Gay

I really wish people would really get a can of cop on

shopaholic01

padd b1975 wrote: »

It could be an act of rebellion towards his macho siblings.

Perharps his ramping up of the campness was his way of saying 'in your face family!' instead of responding with the sort of behaviour tough ****ers would expect.

So people 'chose' to be gay to annoy their relatives? Would children adopted by gay parents 'chose' to be straight to annoy their parents?

HEADLINE: Cure for gayness disovered.

Madam_X

If you really want to have sex with women, you'll have sex with women, not men when you don't actually want to, in order to make a point - and for so many decades.

1ZRed

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I am.

darced wrote: »

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That's a tired stereotype. I used to think that it might have been true just from the depiction in the media but on actually meeting a fair few gay lads it doesn't stand up. The only difference I've noticed is that the ones with more understanding fathers were happier, both still gay though.

1ZRed

padd b1975 wrote: »

It could be an act of rebellion towards his macho siblings.

Perharps his ramping up of the campness was his way of saying 'in your face family!' instead of responding with the sort of behaviour tough ****ers would expect.

That's balls. I've yet to meet anyone who would actually choose to be gay at all never mind to just piss anyone off.

What's the excuse for camp straight men? You probably assume them to be gay like everyone assumes me to be straight on meeting me.

padd b1975

shopaholic01 wrote: »

So people 'chose' to be gay to annoy their relatives? Would children adopted by gay parents 'chose' to be straight to annoy their parents?

HEADLINE: Cure for gayness disovered.

Sorry, you misinterpreted my post.

My point is that he may have chosen to be extremely camp to annoy his relatives.

The fact that he is attracted to other men and his reasons for being that way are not in dispute by me.

B0jangles

darced wrote: »

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Do these same families produce lesbians to the same extent, if not, why not?

Why would single mothers (who'd have to be pretty tough to survive, and possibly have reasons to be cross with straight men) not produce lots of lesbian daughters?

Why wouldn't abusive, homophobic fathers not produce more lesbian, man-phobic daughters?

Maybe because the reasons people are lesbian/gay are more deep-seated and complex than having had ****ty gender role-models as children?

padd b1975

1ZRed wrote: »

That's balls. I've yet to meet anyone who would actually choose to be gay at all never mind to just piss anyone off.

What's the excuse for camp straight men? You probably assume them to be gay like everyone assumes me to be straight on meeting me.

My point was questioning his campness, not his sexuality.

Camp straight men??

It takes all sorts to make the world go round:o

shopaholic01

padd b1975 wrote: »

Sorry, you misinterpreted my post.

My point is that he may have chosen to be extremely camp to annoy his relatives.

The fact that he is attracted to other men and his reasons for being that way are not in dispute by me.

So you're saying he made a conscious decision to be 'more' gay?

I didn't realise there were degrees of gayness.

K-9

padd b1975 wrote: »

Sorry, you misinterpreted my post.

My point is that he may have chosen to be extremely camp to annoy his relatives.

The fact that he is attracted to other men and his reasons for being that way are not in dispute by me.

Chose to be extremely camp? Jaysus, if he is that good an actor he should try Hollywood.

B0jangles

shopaholic01 wrote: »

So you're saying he made a conscious decision to be 'more' gay?

I didn't realise there were degrees of gayness.

To be sure there are: it's all calculated on the Sondheim scale.

:P

gcgirl

padd b1975 wrote: »

My point was questioning his campness, not his sexuality.

Camp straight men??

It takes all sorts to make the world go round:o

I know a few really camp straight men

Sulla Felix

Think it's stupid that a single person can adopt a child but not a couple unless the couple are straight. Afaik the straight couple don't even have to be married!

1ZRed

padd b1975 wrote: »

My point was questioning his campness, not his sexuality.

Camp straight men??

It takes all sorts to make the world go round:o

You think they don't exist? You'd be very mistaken for thinking that, you probably assume them to be gay so you don't realise.

For many camp guys it's actually something they can't help as it's within their personality. Being honest, I used to dislike their attitude, because to me, it correlated to being stereotypically gay which I hated, as I wasn't. They get some abuse from the majority of gay men and straight men, yet they continue because they can't help it. I actually realised that and let them off. It's not my thing but feck it, live and let live.

That's why I don't believe it's put on in the majority of cases as they just can't help it unless they repress it to fit in and avoid the abuse. There's just no benefit to playing it up and acting more camp out of nowhere unless you are camp by your nature.

shopaholic01

B0jangles wrote: »

To be sure there are: it's all calculated on the Sondheim scale.

:P

Is there an equivalent for straightness?

Madam_X

1ZRed wrote: »

You think they don't exist? You'd be very mistaken for thinking that, you probably assume them to be gay so you don't realise.

For many camp guys it's actually something they can't help as it's within their personality. Being honest, I used to dislike their attitude, because to me, it correlated to being stereotypically gay which I hated, as I wasn't. They get some abuse from the majority of gay men and straight men, yet they continue because they can't help it. I actually realised that and let them off. It's not my thing but feck it, live and let live.

That's why I don't believe it's put on in the majority of cases as they just can't help it unless they repress it to fit in and avoid the abuse. There's just no benefit to playing it up and acting more camp out of nowhere unless you are camp by your nature.

Some guys do over-camp though - guys I've known who pretended to be hetero when we all knew they were more than likely gay, because they were innately camp. Then when they came out, they went to town on the camp - I guess because they felt so much freedom due to coming out. I'm not being critical of it, but to be fair to those who feel it can be over-done, they're not necessarily wrong.

B0jangles

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Is there an equivalent for straightness?

I was going to suggest the Segal scale but I thing those pesky Gays have managed to infiltrate Segal fandom too (in an ironic way).

Seriously though, Sondheim musicals are pure-strain gay-friendly awesomeness. Check out 85 year old Angela Lansbury singing at his testimonial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Fa_kn5iVYU

Pity me, I was forced to watch that awful Depp Sweeney Todd about 10 times by my awesome brother who is gay, when he actually just loves the Lansbury version which I really do love. He also introduced me to Sondheim musicals in general.

Dude rocks.

Sondheim's ok too

1ZRed

Madam_X wrote: »

Some guys do over-camp though - guys I've known who pretended to be hetero when we all knew they were more than likely gay, because they were innately camp. Then when they came out, they went to town on the camp - I guess because they felt so much freedom due to coming out. I'm not being critical of it, but to be fair to those who feel it can be over-done, they're not necessarily wrong.

Oh I'm not saying you're wrong. In fact I had it in mind while typing that but didn't want it to get too long and OT so I said the majority don't play it up instead of all of them don't.

I agree with you though, it's the freedom they feel when they come out to express themselves when they couldn't have before that causes a few to go overboard. They usually do settle down a bit from what I've observed. Still camp but less "flaming" I should say

shopaholic01

B0jangles wrote: »

I was going to suggest the Segal scale but I thing those pesky Gays have managed to infiltrate Segal fandom too (in an ironic way).

Seriously though, Sondheim musicals are pure-strain gay-friendly awesomeness. Check out 85 year old Angela Lansbury singing at his testimonial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Fa_kn5iVYU

Pity me, I was forced to watch that awful Depp Sweeney Todd about 10 times by my awesome brother who is gay, when he actually just loves the Lansbury version which I really do love. He also introduced me to Sondheim musicals in general.

Dude rocks.

Sondheim's ok too

Oh dear! I really need to check if I'm straight, just in case I'm just rebelling.

1ZRed

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Oh dear! I really need to check if I'm straight, just in case I'm just rebelling.

Just so happens I need to check and see if I'm gay

shopaholic01

1ZRed wrote: »

Just so happens I need to check and see if I'm gay

If it turns out that you're straight and I'm gay we'll have to put it down to being boardies friends!

On topic, I would like to see adoption approved for gay couples - seeing well adjusted children of gay couples might help dispel some of the myths associated with sexuality.

pragmatic1

orestes wrote: »

Why do people think that the ability to conceive a child is the same thing as the ability to be a good parent?

This deserves post of the day.

B0jangles

1ZRed wrote: »

Just so happens I need to check and see if I'm gay

You're attracted to the same sex but not a Sondheim fan?

FYI you're not actually gay, just straight-unfriendly.

How unsociable of you.

You monster.

:P

Czarcasm

darced wrote: »

In my opinion the vast majority of gay guys come from either a single mother or are raised in a home with a hard man father who is pretty abusive,and normally homophobic.
I've seen this too many times for it not to be a pattern

How many gay men would you have met in your lifetime, honestly now? And how many straight men have you met that were raised by a homophobic abusive father or a single mother?

I was practically raised by my neighbour as both my parents worked, and when they were around my father was an abusive prick, to put it mildly.

But my elderly neighbour taught me from an early age about compassion and respect for your fellow human beings, truly an amazing lady, and one I wish were around today to meet son as I know she would be a tremendous influence in his life.

Someone mentioned something interesting to me lately and it struck a chord with me-

A child isn't just raised by their parents, they are raised by a community. To me that means that while a child's parents are always supposed to be their primary influence, secondary influences such as relatives, friends and neighbours also have an influence in forming a child's view of the world around them.

Oh yes, the same woman also taught me how to shave when I first started shaving!

I also have a friend from childhood (my ex-girlfriend) who was raised by her father after his wife died of cancer, herself and her three sisters were all raised by their father who was an incredibly caring man, and my friend has been fostering children for years, she's not a lesbian and none of her sisters are lesbian, but some of her foster children have been lesbian and gay.


Basically your theory falls dead on it's àrse really IMO.

1ZRed

shopaholic01 wrote: »

If it turns out that you're straight and I'm gay we'll have to put it down to being boardies friends!

You sayin I'm gonna turn you gay? -_- :pac:

B0jangles wrote: »

You're attracted to the same sex but not a Sondheim fan?

FYI you're not actually gay, just straight-unfriendly.

How unsociable of you.

You monster.

:P

Didn't even know what a Sondheim was until I just googled it there. But I can't deny it. I just hate those durty breeders :pac:

Seachmall

Madam_X wrote: »

If you really want to have sex with women, you'll have sex with women

Then why is my sex life so shi? Hmm?!

WayneMolloy

There is a case in Connecticut of two gay men repeatedly raping two of their adopted sons.

Rightly or wrongly, cases like that will put people off same sex adoptions. Even if it can be proven that statistically, gay men are not more prone to abusing their adopted sons.

orestes

pragmatic1 wrote: »

This deserves post of the day.

No it doesn't, it's a question that shouldn't even have to be asked.

1ZRed

WayneMolloy wrote: »

There is a case in Connecticut of two gay men repeatedly raping two of their adopted sons.

Rightly or wrongly, cases like that will put people off same sex adoptions. Even if it can be proven that statistically, gay men are not more prone to abusing their adopted sons.

That's the first time heard of something like that, horrible stuff, but what about the countless times of the cases were sexual abuse has happened at the hands of straight parents?

I understand your point but I'm sure they'll forget the frequency of the latter when coming to conclusions unfortunately.

Bannasidhe

WayneMolloy wrote: »

There is a case in Connecticut of two gay men repeatedly raping two of their adopted sons.

Rightly or wrongly, cases like that will put people off same sex adoptions. Even if it can be proven that statistically, gay men are not more prone to abusing their adopted sons.

There was a case in Austria where a father imprisoned and repeatedly raped his daughter - impregnating her 7 times.

Rightly or wrongly, cases like that will put people off fathers. Even if it can be proven that statistically, fathers are not more prone to abusing their daughters.

Mardy Bum

WayneMolloy wrote: »

There is a case in Connecticut of two gay men repeatedly raping two of their adopted sons.

Rightly or wrongly, cases like that will put people off same sex adoptions. Even if it can be proven that statistically, gay men are not more prone to abusing their adopted sons.

Tbh people who have such a phenomenally flawed view of the world and a clear inability to think critically have a lot more to worry about in themselves and their own intellect rather than gay marriage.

Seachmall

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Rightly or wrongly, cases like that will put people off same sex adoptions. Even if it can be proven that statistically, gay men are not more prone to abusing their adopted sons.

So much stupid in this post I can hardly bear it...ajkldfhsadsjknfhjkahfajkfnjknsajknfjkdanfjkdsfjkajsdfhasjk

shopaholic01

Bannasidhe wrote: »

There was a case in Austria where a father imprisoned and repeatedly raped his daughter - impregnating her 7 times.

Rightly or wrongly, cases like that will put people off fathers. Even if it can be proven that statistically, fathers are not more prone to abusing their daughters.

And let's not forget Fred and Rosemary West - straight people shouldn't be allowed have children, biological or adopted.

WayneMolloy

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Tbh people who have such a phenomenally flawed view of the world and a clear inability to think critically have a lot more to worry about in themselves and their own intellect rather than gay marriage.

It sticks in peoples minds. People are pretty impressionable, and those that oppose same sex adoption will use it to paint a particular picture.

If we do have a referendum on same sex marriage/adoption - it is going to be an absolute clusterf*ck.

Id probably leave the country for a month beforehand. Not joking either.

gcgirl

WayneMolloy wrote: »

There is a case in Connecticut of two gay men repeatedly raping two of their adopted sons.

Rightly or wrongly, cases like that will put people off same sex adoptions. Even if it can be proven that statistically, gay men are not more prone to abusing their adopted sons.

WTF ?????

I know far more heterosexual fathers that abused their kids than any LGBT parent(which is zero)

WayneMolloy

Seachmall wrote: »

So much stupid in this post I can hardly bear it...ajkldfhsadsjknfhjkahfajkfnjknsajknfjkdanfjkdsfjkajsdfhasjk

I dont know why you are all freaking out. I already said that I am neutral on the issue.

My point was that people are going to use this particular case, to suit their anti gay marriage/adoption agenda.

This is hardly an earth shattering or stupid statement to make

orestes

WayneMolloy wrote: »

There is a case in Connecticut of two gay men repeatedly raping two of their adopted sons.

Rightly or wrongly, cases like that will put people off same sex adoptions. Even if it can be proven that statistically, gay men are not more prone to abusing their adopted sons.

That case hasn't even made it to trial yet, the men have been accused by two of their foster children while others of their foster children are saying they are innocent.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/george-harasz-douglas-wirth-gay-couple-sexual-abuse-foster-sons_n_3039562.html

Even bringing it up here is pointless scaremongering.

Seachmall

WayneMolloy wrote: »

I dont know why you are all freaking out. I already said that I am neutral on the issue.

My point was that people are going to use this particular case, to suit their anti gay marriage/adoption agenda.

This is hardly an earth shattering or stupid statement to make

Three words.

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Rightly or wrongly

As in,

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Rightly or wrongly, cases like that will put people off same sex adoptions.

Do you really think that could be right? Really? REALLY?

oppenheimer1

This thread would have been more interesting with a poll.

Czarcasm

WayneMolloy wrote: »

There is a case in Connecticut of two gay men repeatedly raping two of their adopted sons.

Rightly or wrongly, cases like that will put people off same sex adoptions. Even if it can be proven that statistically, gay men are not more prone to abusing their adopted sons.

As anecdotal evidence goes, even that's scraping the bottom of the barrel, it's akin to the "all gay men are pedos" elephant in the room myth perpetuated by ignorance and a lack of understanding that christian groups would have their followers believe is true.

If you had wanted to use examples of people who should never be allowed adopt children, you could've had your pick of numerous celebrities who treat adopted children as fashion accessories, two in particular that spring to mind are Elton John and David Furnish, you could've said because they're gay, but I would've said it's because they treat adopted children like they're a fashion accessory.

I would also have countered your point using examples like Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, or Madonna, hell even Sacha Baron Cohen if you've ever seen the film "Bruno", ripped the pìss out of that particular phenomenon and played off all the myths surrounding adoption by people who were LGBT.

I'm just surprised we were 20 odd pages in before someone introduced that white elephant anecdote as "evidence" to suggest it's one of the reasons why LGBT people should not be allowed adopt children, especially when incest, sexual and physical abuse is far more common in heterosexual people.