Gay Adoption?

Daith

Trudiha wrote: »

Yeah it is about equality, every single child should have the same right to two parents responsible for their welfare. The children of gays and unmarried folks should have equality to the children of married heterosexuals.

And not this farcical situation where the state allows one person to adopt and become a family but won't recognize the second parent.

Vote no to equal marriage to protect the children indeed. Red herrring if there ever was one.

Bannasidhe

Trudiha wrote: »

Yeah it is about equality, every single child should have the same right to two parents responsible for their welfare. The children of gays and unmarried folks should have equality to the children of married heterosexuals.

Absolutely - we are supposed to have removed the stigma of illegitimacy from our legal system but we have not removed all the legal implications.

Currently, we have a situation where the State is saying 'these particular children have only one parent' when in reality the have two and in the case of the children of gay couples the State is actively preventing those children from having two legally recognised parents by denying those parents the right to marry.

Phill Ewinn

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Absolutely - we are supposed to have removed the stigma of illegitimacy from our legal system but we have not removed all the legal implications.

Currently, we have a situation where the State is saying 'these particular children have only one parent' when in reality the have two and in the case of the children of gay couples the State is actively preventing those children from having two legally recognised parents by denying those parents the right to marry.

Jeez. This is just mode of it. Marriage isn't a panacea as I said already. Gay couples can adopt. Dragging the marriage thing around like some ball and chain in every other thread is tiresome.

VinLieger

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Jeez. This is just mode of it. Marriage isn't a panacea as I said already. Gay couples can adopt. Dragging the marriage thing around like some ball and chain in every other thread is tiresome.

Eh no they cant, a gay person can adopt, couples cannot. Also you ignoring every request to explain your reasoning against gay marriage apart from simply saying "its different duh" is also tiring.

1ZRed

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Jeez. This is just mode of it. Marriage isn't a panacea as I said already. Gay couples can adopt. Dragging the marriage thing around like some ball and chain in every other thread is tiresome.

Dragging around the same argument that gay marriage is different only because it's two people of the same sex without discussing it any further and dodging questions as to why it is different bar two men or two women is what is most tiresome tbh

Bannasidhe

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Jeez. This is just mode of it. Marriage isn't a panacea as I said already. Gay couples can adopt. Dragging the marriage thing around like some ball and chain in every other thread is tiresome.

Have you actually read the posts in this thread Phill?

Did you miss all of those ones that have clearly stated that gay couples cannot adopt?

Married couples can adopt as a couple - civil partnershipped couples cannot.

There are no circumstances under which a gay couple can adopt as a couple.

Gay individuals can adopt. Gay couples can not adopt because they are not married.

I not sure how many other ways I can put this...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Jeez. This is just mode of it. Marriage isn't a panacea as I said already. Gay couples can adopt. Dragging the marriage thing around like some ball and chain in every other thread is tiresome.

Seeing as the other thread got locked, I'll ask here:

If gay couples are different from married couples (don't need you to explain, accepted) then should they be treated differently in the eyes of the law, and if so why?

Daith

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Jeez. This is just mode of it. Marriage isn't a panacea as I said already. Gay couples can adopt. Dragging the marriage thing around like some ball and chain in every other thread is tiresome.

So after page after page of people saying "gay couples can't adopt" you come back with "gay couples can adopt" and calling it tiresome.

Trudiha

Honestly, it's like a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

Phill Ewinn

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Seeing as the other thread got locked, I'll ask here:

If gay couples are different from married couples (don't need you to explain, accepted) then should they be treated differently in the eyes of the law, and if so why?

I never said they should be treated differently. Not ever have I said that. I can repeat what I did say but it will get ignored as usual.

Sierra 117

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

I never said they should be treated differently. Not ever have I said that. I can repeat what I did say but it will get ignored as usual.

Well, when you constantly repeat what you've said without explaining it then it's no wonder you're ignored.

Phill Ewinn

VinLieger wrote: »

Eh no they cant, a gay person can adopt, couples cannot. Also you ignoring every request to explain your reasoning against gay marriage apart from simply saying "its different duh" is also tiring.

We all know gay people are adopting and raising children but no one seems to talk about the logistics of it. How? Where? Who? What? It’s in the interest of making things a bit more manageable, and dispelling some myths that some friends decided to set up the website IrishPinkAdoptions.com.

It is different, DUH!

Bannasidhe

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

I never said they should be treated differently. Not ever have I said that. I can repeat what I did say but it will get ignored as usual.

Please do repeat as my memory is that you did say gay couples are 'different' therefore should not be treated the same as straight couples.

Any chance of a retraction of your 'gay couples can adopt' comment?

1ZRed

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

I never said they should be treated differently. Not ever have I said that. I can repeat what I did say but it will get ignored as usual.

You did. You want gay couples to get treated differently to straight couples because they are different in your eyes. That's what your whole point has been centred around.

You are actually the one who is ignoring us. We asked you to explain why and you just go around in another circle saying we are ignoring you. I don't get what you're trying to achieve or convince in us.

Bannasidhe

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

It is different, DUH!

In what way is it 'different' Phill?

Adding a 'DUH' does not an argument make.

Phill Ewinn

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Please do repeat as my memory is that you did say gay couples are 'different' therefore should not be treated the same as straight couples.

Any chance of a retraction of your 'gay couples can adopt' comment?

Retract that. Whatever your agenda is here, misquoting me won't accelerate your cause.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

I never said they should be treated differently. Not ever have I said that. I can repeat what I did say but it will get ignored as usual.

Not nessecary. I aske DO you think they should be treated differently BECAUSE you never said they should or shouldn't. Care to answer?

Bannasidhe

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Jeez. This is just mode of it. Marriage isn't a panacea as I said already. Gay couples can adopt. Dragging the marriage thing around like some ball and chain in every other thread is tiresome.

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Retract that. Whatever your agenda is here, misquoting me won't accelerate your cause.

Where did I misquote you Phill?

StewartGriffin

The scientific approach would be to make a list of all the reasons a gay couple should be able to adopt and balance it against a list of reasons why they shouldn't. This would then have to be compared against similar lists for non-gay couples.
I suspect you would then be left with a single question - how important is it for a child's welfare and development to have both a male and a female role model in the parenting structure? Beyond that I can't think of any differences.

Another scientific question - since homosexuality exists in other species, are there any instances of gay couples rearing chicks/cubs in the animal kingdom?

Phill Ewinn

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not nessecary. I aske DO you think they should be treated differently BECAUSE you never said they should or shouldn't. Care to answer?

In the other thread I pointed out that 160 differences could be tackled by examining same sex partnership legislation.

That point was dismissed by most of the militant shower. Instead they want a gold star and a pat on the head. The militants won't accept the fact that the two different relationships are different. The 'marriage as a panacea to everything' campaign goes on.

Sierra 117

The two relationships aren't different.

nozzferrahhtoo

StewartGriffin wrote: »

The scientific approach would be to make a list of all the reasons a gay couple should be able to adopt and balance it against a list of reasons why they shouldn't. This would then have to be compared against similar lists for non-gay couples.

Indeed. Actually a slightly modified and improved (in my opinion of course) approach would be to make a list of all the things that a child actually requires for a healthy and successful upbringing. Love, protection, food, education so on so on so on.

Then using THAT list find one thing on it that any one parental configuration can not provide, or provide significantly worse, than any other parental configuration.

The reason why I would declare it "improved" above is that I have asked this very thing now of many... many... anti gay adoption campaigners and propagandists. I have not received one single reply as yet.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

In the other thread I pointed out that 160 differences could be tackled by examining same sex partnership legislation.

third time: I never spoke about differences. I asked: do you think gay and staraight couples should be treated differently in the eeys of the law? Yes or no?

Phill Ewinn

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Please do repeat as my memory is that you did say gay couples are 'different' therefore should not be treated the same as straight couples.

Any chance of a retraction of your 'gay couples can adopt' comment?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

third time: I never spoke about differences. I asked: do you think gay and staraight couples should be treated differently in the eeys of the law? Yes or no?

I'm meant to respond to you when all you do is misquote me, give me attitude and try paint me with your brush?


For the first time. I don't wish to carry out a conversation with you.

wonderfulname

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

...the two different relationships are different.

Once again, how?

Bannasidhe

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

I'm meant to respond to you when all you do is misquote me, give me attitude and try paint me with your brush?


For the first time. I don't wish to carry out a conversation with you.

Don't throw all of your toys out of the pram at once Phill else you will have nothing left to play with.

If you have an issue with any of my responses to you - feel free to use the report button.

Or you could just point out where I allegedly misquoted you.

VinLieger

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

I'm meant to respond to you when all you do is misquote me, give me attitude and try paint me with your brush?


For the first time. I don't wish to carry out a conversation with you.

Pretty sure that was your entire argument from the other thread

Heres several of your posts stating they are different so shouldnt be allowed marry, curiously cant find one post of yours explaining how they are different but if you can please show us

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84169315&postcount=179
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84178487&postcount=306
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84179513&postcount=342
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84191942&postcount=464
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84192252&postcount=471

NuMarvel

Deleted User wrote: »

It certainly would be an ideal to work towards. However no system is perfect from adoption placement to dole payouts. People always find ways to "work the system". I just feel that GIVING them a reason to do so and in some ways compelling them to do so (Either you find away to act single or you simply can not apply) is probably not the best first step to be making.

The assessment process is intensive, possibly bordering on invasive (but with good reason). Anyone who can fool the HSE and the Adoption Authority into believing they are a single person living alone should get a job a a spy. Maybe even a ninja!

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Jeez. This is just mode of it. Marriage isn't a panacea as I said already. Gay couples can adopt. Dragging the marriage thing around like some ball and chain in every other thread is tiresome.

You might want to educate yourself on the adoption process and who can and cannot adopt jointly.

I'll summarise: married couples can adopt jointly. This means an adopted child has a legal relationship with both parents, which is handy in so many ways, great and small. Gay couples can't marry. Ergo, they can't apply jointly. This means that an adopted child will only have a legal relationship with the person applying. This causes all sorts of problems for the child great and small, especially if something happens to the sole legal parent.

Sierra 117 wrote: »

The two relationships aren't different.

He knows, but I think he's just trying to distract us. His posts aren't relevant to the topic, so I suggest we ignore and let him on with it.

Phill Ewinn

NuMarvel wrote: »

The assessment process is intensive, possibly bordering on invasive (but with good reason). Anyone who can fool the HSE and the Adoption Authority into believing they are a single person living alone should get a job a a spy. Maybe even a ninja!



You might want to educate yourself on the adoption process and who can and cannot adopt jointly.

I'll summarise: married couples can adopt jointly. This means an adopted child has a legal relationship with both parents, which is handy in so many ways, great and small. Gay couples can't marry. Ergo, they can't apply jointly. This means that an adopted child will only have a legal relationship with the person applying. This causes all sorts of problems for the child great and small, especially if something happens to the sole legal parent.



He knows, but I think he's just trying to distract us. His posts aren't relevant to the topic, so I suggest we ignore and let him on with it.

I disagree, obviously. If those 160 differences were addressed there'd be no barrier to same sex couples adopting. Something I have no opinion on BTW.

NuMarvel

NuMarvel wrote: »

Anyone who can fool the HSE and the Adoption Authority into believing they are a single person living alone should get a job a a spy.

As I said before - I certainly hope you are right but I do not know either way.

I do remember the old saying however: Anyone who believes they have made their process fool-proof has likely just underestimated the ingenuity of fools.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

I'm meant to respond to you when all you do is misquote me, give me attitude and try paint me with your brush?


For the first time. I don't wish to carry out a conversation with you.

Me? What conversation? Or was I in there by mistake?

CdeC

crockholm wrote: »

Same said procedure should rule out the mentally unstable heterosexuals too.

Yes but nature doesn't rule out these people. Gay people want to be parents too. Why not let them. It is beneficial for a child to be clothed fed and loved in a stable home.

Gender does not play a role, the nature of the parents relationship does.

Oh and people who think that gay relationships are fine but not for children. I believe this to be an oxymoron.

Either gay is ok or not.

CdeC

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Bring him hunting to kill something aged 10

Daith

Deleted User wrote: »

As I said before - I certainly hope you are right but I do not know either way.

I do remember the old saying however: Anyone who believes they have made their process fool-proof has likely just underestimated the ingenuity of fools.

Sorry I'm not sure what you are talking about? Gay people don't have to lie to adopt if they are in a relationship? Their partner will be assessed also but will not have any rights to the child.

If you think that a gay person might want to hide the fact that they're in a relationship (no idea why) it's no different than a single straight person trying to adopt and hiding in a relationship.

Daith

CdeC wrote: »

Bring him hunting to kill something aged 10

If the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn’t, it’s that girls should stick to girls’ sports, such as hot oil wrestling, foxy boxing, and such and such

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Single Mums and Dads seem to manage it. Are you sure you;re nto creating a problem here for the sake of it?

Bannasidhe

Daith wrote: »

If the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn’t, it’s that girls should stick to girls’ sports, such as hot oil wrestling, foxy boxing, and such and such

or ordinary boxing and rugby where they are more successful then men.

Daith

Daith wrote: »

Sorry I'm not sure what you are talking about? Gay people don't have to lie to adopt if they are in a relationship? Their partner will be assessed also but will not have any rights to the child.

Is that Ireland? How does it differ from country to country. Most of what I hear in this debate comes from the US so I am unsure how it differs here.

However even then I would still worry that if you are in a gay couple and you are told the system is against gay adoption then you might feel tempted to do your best to simply not mention the partner for fear the system is some how biased against you.

The whole atmosphere and approach seems to me a bad one. If gay couples are allowed adopt if they do it as one single person then why not simply go the whole way and allow gay couples to adopt? It has never made sense to me - which is all my original point said.

VinLieger

Deleted User wrote: »

Is that Ireland? How does it differ from country to country. Most of what I hear in this debate comes from the US so I am unsure how it differs here.

However even then I would still worry that if you are in a gay couple and you are told the system is against gay adoption then you might feel tempted to do your best to simply not mention the partner for fear the system is some how biased against you.

The whole atmosphere and approach seems to me a bad one. If gay couples are allowed adopt if they do it as one single person then why not simply go the whole way and allow gay couples to adopt? It has never made sense to me - which is all my original point said.

Cus ignorant people think if gay couples can adopt then the kid will 100% turn out gay, at least if its only 1 official gay parent then its a 50/50 chance they will turn out straight or gay :P

/sarcasm just in case phill is reading

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Is that Ireland? How does it differ from country to country. Most of what I hear in this debate comes from the US so I am unsure how it differs here.

However even then I would still worry that if you are in a gay couple and you are told the system is against gay adoption then you might feel tempted to do your best to simply not mention the partner for fear the system is some how biased against you.

The whole atmosphere and approach seems to me a bad one. If gay couples are allowed adopt if they do it as one single person then why not simply go the whole way and allow gay couples to adopt? It has never made sense to me - which is all my original point said.

Different countries have different laws - and in the case of the U.S. different States have different laws - so it is not really pertinent to a discussion on Gay adoption in Ireland.

Gay couples cannot adopt in Ireland as a couple because that is available only to married couples - and gay couples cannot marry. Catch 22.

Those who insist on dragging the issue of adoption into the debate on marriage tend to ignore the fact that sexual orientation is not a bar to becoming an adoptive parent but being unmarried is a bar to adopting as a couple.

Daith

Deleted User wrote: »

However even then I would still worry that if you are in a gay couple and you are told the system is against gay adoption then you might feel tempted to do your best to simply not mention the partner for fear the system is some how biased against you.

The whole atmosphere and approach seems to me a bad one. If gay couples are allowed adopt if they do it as one single person then why not simply go the whole way and allow gay couples to adopt? It has never made sense to me - which is all my original point said.

Oh no fully in agreement with you. It makes no sense at all. It's also grossly unfair on the children. As has been said many times before about this.

It also makes a mockery of all those against same sex marriage who say "it's about the children". When voting no to these equal marriage harms children.

Bannasidhe

VinLieger wrote: »

Cus ignorant people think if gay couples can adopt then the kid will 100% turn out gay, at least if its only 1 official gay parent then its a 50/50 chance they will turn out straight or gay :P

/sarcasm just in case phill is reading

Jeeze - did my son turn out to be straight even though both of his biological parents were gay and he was raised from birth by a same sex couple because I birthed him and didn't adopt him??? :eek:

Damn!

Bannasidhe

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Single Mums and Dads seem to manage it. Are you sure you;re nto creating a problem here for the sake of it?

Even 'single' gay adoptive moms and dads manage it.

VinLieger

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Jeeze - did my son turn out to be straight even though both of his biological parents were gay and he was raised from birth by a same sex couple because I birthed him and didn't adopt him??? :eek:

Damn!

Never had a chance

Bannasidhe

VinLieger wrote: »

Never had a chance

He's not only straight - he's a breeder.

VinLieger

Bannasidhe wrote: »

He's not only straight - he's a breeder.

:eek: have you told the authorities?

Bannasidhe

VinLieger wrote: »

:eek: have you told the authorities?

Nah. I'm waiting to see if he pays the Property Tax on my house (where he doesn't live) as the demand was addressed to him.

If he doesn't - I'm dobbing him in.

Corkfeen

becost wrote: »

Well I have one question for all the liberal supporters of gay adoption. Would you have preferred to have been raised by two mummies or two daddies? It's a yes/no answer. If everyone is 100% honest, I won't expect to get one Yes.

I would have no preference, in adoption processes the goal should be for the child to be provided with the most capable of the candidates. Sexual orientation shouldn't be an issue.

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Family structures have many variations so two same sex parents isn't inherently unnatural.There is no question over their capabilities as parents. Same sex adoption has been legal in places for around a decade, same sex couples have been raising children for a lot longer and the studies have proven that same sex parents are as capable as any other parent.

I was bullied in school, had two heterosexual parents and i'm straight. I was bullied over my appearance and there were gay people in my year who were extremely popular amongst all. What does this prove? People get bullied over any old ****e and resolving the issue of bullying is of far greater importance unless you want to eliminate all the possible reasons a person can be bullied.

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You have a background in psychology? I'm assuming that you don't given that you're speaking out of your arse. Unless you can provide proof for your claims.

K-9

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

I disagree, obviously. If those 160 differences were addressed there'd be no barrier to same sex couples adopting. Something I have no opinion on BTW.

Mod:

I can't understand why you've 8 posts in a thread about a topic you've no opinion on. Don't post on this thread again thank you.

Czarcasm

I'll just throw some thoughts out here and see if we can move the discussion on a bit:

For starters anyway, employment law in Ireland states that you cannot discriminate against a person on the nine grounds listed below:

• Gender
• Marital status
• Family status
• Sexual orientation
• Religion
• Age
• Disability
• Race/colour/nationality/ethnic or national origins
• Membership of the travelling community.


So, if you cannot discriminate against a person on these grounds, then it could be argued that Irish legislation contradicts itself when it comes to the differences between family and employment law, and because protection of the family is one of the cornerstones of Irish legislation, then why could those same anti-discrimination measures not be applied in respect of protecting the family, no matter the dynamics or the members that make up that family? In MY opinion, every family dynamic is different, but every family should be offered equal protection of the state.

Secondly, with regard to my opinion that every family is different, again in my opinion, there ARE differences between how a child is raised in a heterosexual relationship and an LGBT relationship. That's not to say that one is better or deserves more validity than the other; that is to say that as individuals- a man and a woman will raise a child differently to how two men or two women or two trans people will raise a child, or even how a single person will raise a child (we could go on all day with the various permutations and combinations, not to mention children raised in polygamous or polyandrous relationships), because male and female brains are wired far differently than they are similar. There is also the question of the parent's values and their outlook on life.

Therefore in my opinion at least, we could get hung up on the face that their parents' sexuality has an influence on the child, or we could accept that it is only ONE relevant influence on a child, given that they are also exposed to other relatives, friends and neighbours on an almost daily basis. What I'm saying is that while their parents' influence has a major bearing on the child's world view, unless the parents (or single parent, male or female!) keep the child in a bubble, there is no guarantee that the child will share the same values and ideals as their parents as they grow and develop themselves as individuals.

I don't know many gay parents personally, but those I do know, when I meet them, the LAST thing we discuss is our children (tbh we have better things to be talking about!), but our children would share pretty much the same ideas and core values, that is that they would treat every individual with the same respect as they would expect for themselves. I could say the same for many single parents I know. I've met not more than a handful of parents who try and influence their child into thinking negatively of the opposite sex, I've met and dealt with parents who as people are complete cnuts, and treat their children like they are just possessions, and not individuals in their own right with their own thoughts, feelings and beliefs. Their sexuality in most cases is irrelevant, but some parents choose to make it relevant in the same way as some parents place an emphasis on religion.

The point being really that anyone can be a parent, and anyone can be an influence on a child, and the only thing that really matters at the end of the day is whether a person is a positive, or a negative influence on a child. I'd personally prefer all factors be taken into account when decisions are made in whether a person or persons will be a positive or negative influence on a child, and to that end, LGBT people should be afforded the same rights, opportunities and supports the State offers to heterosexual people.

The Irish State ITSELF shouldn't be allowed to discriminate on the grounds of gender or sexual orientation!