Opinions on theory

pinkypinky

Hi All,

I have a theory about a great-great grandfather of mine...but could use some fresh eyes to compare please.

1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000193401/

1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003791419/

First off, I'm confident this is my family and that it's the same family on each census. Notice that John Long has put his place of birth as Dublin City on the 1911 and Co. Cork on the 1901 (with Ireland initially written in).

I know that there are age errors and the number of years married for the older couple is out by 3 years on 1911 - I have all the relevant certs.

Question: is he likely to have forgotten he was from Cork? My grandmother, whose family this is, always said her father, the Peter Reilly living with them in 1911 was from Youghal but through military records, I have traced his birth cert and baptism to Dublin. I think she possibly got confused between her father and grandfather who died within a couple of years when she was a small child.

Question: is it the same handwriting? The census enumerator possibly filled out some of the 1911 - the very distinctive P in both Peter and his own signature suggest that.

I'd love some second opinions please.

shanew

difficult one - there are similarities in the handwriting, e.g. A, T and E, but also some differences - the one that's bothering me is the difference in the g at the end of Long. There's a distinctive extra flourish at the end on 1901 thats absent in 1911.. on both the form and signature. Wonder if maybe one the other members of the family filled it in ?

shanew

the hand writing on the 1901 form looks to be a little less tidy, and all slants to the right, whereas it's slightly neater and the names at least very upright on the later return. On the 1911 return there's some slightly better spelling - Electrician vs Electrican, Mary vs Marey

I see what you mean about the P being similar, but I dont think the enumerator filled that in... his 'a' looks different to the ones on the form, although based on a very small sample of 1

If it was another, possibly younger, family member filling the form in maybe they didn't know where John was born ?

pinkypinky

I think it's quite possible another family filled it in, and that too could explain the errors in ages. However, in my experience, Cork accents stay strong. I don't know what kind of knowledge a Dubliner would have had of other counties' accents but if my parent was from another place and had an obvious accent, surely I'd know what it was. All speculation, of course.

shanew

Wonder would comparing any the forms of those next-door to see if writing is similar... not sure it would be very definite

good point about the accent - wonder if the rest of the family grew up with a touch of a Cork accent in the house from John, would they even notice any more ?

I've a similar one with a gtgtgt-grandmother who we eventually found on 1901 census, and her place of birth is given as 'Dublin'. The story we heard was that she was born in Cork c1833, which is where she married ... The census form was filled in by her son in law.

P. Breathnach

My grandfather was born in Wicklow in 1881. This is a fact I knew from my childhood. I was surprised to find, when I started my family research, that none of my siblings or cousins knew that: the general view among those who had any opinion on the question is that he was from Dublin. The reason is simple: he was born in Wicklow, but his parents moved to Dublin when he was very young.

Might it be a similar story with John Long?

P. Breathnach

My inner comedian wants to participate in this discussion:
- You were born in Cork, you say?
- Yes.
- I always thought you were a Dub. How come you were born in Cork?
- That's where my mother was at the time.

And there is a real point to be made about maternal location. It often happened that a woman returned to her mother's home for the delivery of a baby. It happened most often with the first-born. It might have been that John Long was born at his maternal grandparents' home in Cork although the family home was in Dublin.

mari2222

The church records at irishgenealogy.ie have a few people of that name baptised around the right time......maybe there is something on it for you.

pinkypinky

mari2222 wrote: »

The church records at irishgenealogy.ie have a few people of that name baptised around the right time......maybe there is something on it for you.

Yes, that's the trouble, and I had found what I thought was the right John Long with father named David on there in Dublin but when I finally got the 1901 census, it threw a spanner in the works.
This is his marriage.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/fca70d0096922

And I thought this was a very good match for baptism.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/c9300b0192473

There's no suitable John Long for the right decade of birth in Cork that I've found (1840s) with a father called David.

shanew

based on the marriage, both sets of parents lived in Dublin City at the time (Clarendon St. & Bishop St.) - wonder if a trace back of marriages and baptisms of their children might help in determining if/when they moved from Cork ?

P. Breathnach

And you have this marriage for David Long and Eliza Murphy: http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/b3fdf00422126. Note that one witness was Margaret Dunne, who was a sponsor at John Long's baptism.

The surname Murphy is reasonably consistent with the possibility that John Long's mother was from Cork.

shanew

^^ I like this theory .... year before the baptism, same parish, rare father's name - def. worth following up, although not much to go on with the early St. Andrews records...


@pinky - any clues from your other records on this family as to Eliza's maiden name ?

p.s. plus the poss. Margaret Dunn[e] connection

P. Breathnach

There were 5 Eliza Murphys baptised in Youghal between 1815 and 1825.

pinkypinky

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And you have this marriage for David Long and Eliza Murphy: http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/b3fdf00422126. Note that one witness was Margaret Dunne, who was a sponsor at John Long's baptism.

The surname Murphy is reasonably consistent with the possibility that John Long's mother was from Cork.

Yes, I had previously thought this was the parents - until I saw the Cork thing.
Hadn't noticed the Margaret Dunne before (how?!) so this makes it even more likely.

pinkypinky

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/cbfebc0323494

This is a sister of the John Long baptised in 1846.

I haven't found any other children. In John's own kids, there are no Long godparents, only from his wife's side, which might support the theory that the parents were dead and he had no surviving siblings.

A John Long is godfather to a MARIA CHRISTINA TIMMINS in 1870, born to parents Alicia Long and William Timmins of 38 Wicklow St - possible sister?

tanoralover

pinkypinky wrote: »

A John Long is godfather to a MARIA CHRISTINA TIMMINS in 1870, born to parents Alicia Long and William Timmins of 38 Wicklow St - possible sister?

Additional children of this couple are John William (b 1861), William (b 1865, 34 North Cumberland St) and Joseph Michael (b 1878, 41 Summer Hill).