Milk Price- Please read Mod note in post #1

Deepsouthwest

Milked out wrote: »

Ours are
Bovine disease levy 0.06c
Dairy inspection levy 0.1c
Dairy research levy 0.018c
Irish dairy board levy 0.14c

U should never look at it on a cost per litre basis, wait for the end of yr statement and see what it all adds up to then, and then add that on to massive amount of tax we had to pay over the last few wks, and then the accountants couple of €k on top of that, all comes to a crazy amount of money out of ur pocket with no thanks.
Sometimes ur better off not to think about these things!

whelan2

Are all these payments compulsory?

Buford T. Justice XIX

whelan2 wrote: »

off my latest milk cheque the following were deducted
Bord Bainne 44.43
Dairy research levy 11.43
Dairy council levy 37.80
Govt services 54.00
Disease eradication 32.40
National milk agency 11.13
Fmp levy 38.18
total 229.37 :eek:
wtf is government services and if they are getting 50 euro a month off the average farmer what does it go towards

I imagine Govt Services would be the milk ring test for brucellosis. Or that could be Disease eradication, just spotted that now.

That's a damn good question, W2. I'll ask at the AGM this week.

whelan2

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I imagine Govt Services would be the milk ring test for brucellosis. Or that could be Disease eradication, just spotted that now.

That's a damn good question, W2. I'll ask at the AGM this week.

600 euro a year to goverment services and thats just from me , imagine the total of it?

atlantic mist

How do u join FMP? Do you have to buy quota at 15 euro a liter? wouldnt imagine to many enter, closed shop at this stage.
Winter milk supplier here not a FMP member.

On spin out i wondered why the plc was keeping liquid milk and all the liquid milk lads in meeting stayed very quite which i though was very unusual, but it does keep suppliers in different groups easy to throw a bone to keep quite at times, good strategy. whats the avg liquid milk price for this year?

what happens when we flatten supply curve will plc/competitors be able to buy milk cheaper from us in manufacturing and bottle it for the supermarkets, manufacturing suppliers are used to being paid less than liquid milk equivalent

stretch film

atlantic mist wrote: »

How do u join FMP? Do you have to buy quota at 15 euro a liter? wouldnt imagine to many enter, closed shop at this stage.
Winter milk supplier here not a FMP member.

On spin out i wondered why the plc was keeping liquid milk and all the liquid milk lads in meeting stayed very quite which i though was very unusual, but it does keep suppliers in different groups easy to throw a bone to keep quite at times, good strategy. whats the avg liquid milk price for this year?

what happens when we flatten supply curve will plc/competitors be able to buy milk cheaper from us in manufacturing and bottle it for the supermarkets, manufacturing suppliers are used to being paid less than liquid milk equivalent

Liquid milk is a closed shop , similarly winter scheme is too.
No scope therefore for any existing supplier to increase winter output to help spread costs let alone room for new entrants.

No benefits given to liquid lads post demerger I can think of.
Price is manufacturing base + bonus over winter. Coop top up also going to liquid suppliers . Before you rear up over that one , be careful not to annoy your grain supplying neighbour.


Whatever about late lactation milk displacing liquid ,there are lads calving cows ayr effectively and getting only manuf price on this milk. So thats a curve flattening excercise in insanity imo. Gratefully accepted by processors.


On the levies , they will have increased by 50% by 2020 if the "harvest" predictions are met. Save some of your ire at the local branch meeting of the ifa for this issue. What was sufficient funding pre quota should be similar post.

WheatenBriar

Liquid milk contracts are not a closed shop in Glanbia, there was at least one new entrant last year,who bought liquid contract for the first time and now attends FMP meetings
There may have been more

stretch film

WheatenBriar wrote: »

Liquid milk contracts are not a closed shop in Glanbia, there was at least one new entrant last year,who bought liquid contract for the first time and now attends FMP meetings
There may have been more

Glad to hear that. What area roughly was this in.
I've picked up by his posts that A mist is from my neck of woods and it is certainly closed down here .
Alot of levies passed over and not a teaspoon of quota coming our way.
One poster here has a plan to double his liquid quota in line with overall expansion . The pool he will purchase from is certainly closed as long there is enough takers within a certain geographical area

Timmaay

WheatenBriar wrote: »

Liquid milk contracts are not a closed shop in Glanbia, there was at least one new entrant last year,who bought liquid contract for the first time and now attends FMP meetings
There may have been more

Last year you actually couldn't even sell liquid there were that many trying to exit, and so few wanting to buy. Shows where the liquid market is heading, it's just not worth the effort of running a seperate calving/drycow/Ai/grazing group for the likes of 20/30 cows which is about all that many liquid farmers around me would need to cover their liquid quota, combine that with quotas gone, it makes much more sense to run a compact calving 120 herd easily managed by 1 man, than say 80 split and him bursting his balls all year around.

stretch film

Timmaay wrote: »

Last year you actually couldn't even sell liquid there were that many trying to exit, and so few wanting to buy. Shows where the liquid market is heading, it's just not worth the effort of running a seperate calving/drycow/Ai/grazing group for the likes of 20/30 cows which is about all that many liquid farmers around me would need to cover their liquid quota, combine that with quotas gone, it makes much more sense to run a compact calving 120 herd easily managed by 1 man, than say 80 split and him bursting his balls all year around.

if those guys/gals decided to pack it in where does their unsold quota go?

there are quota holders(small?) all over the glanbia area leaving gallons unfilled and hence they evapourate into thin air instead of remaining in another farmers possession. these are a limited pool of higher value "production rights " and parochialism is keeping them out of fellow farmers hands (fellow FMP members).

while the collective negotiations etc is the strongest benefit of FMP, the slack management of liquid quota is not allowing interested suppliers maintain those gallons
and allow those who want to exit to do so

Timmaay

I'd be surprised if there are many unfilled liquid quota litres out there, bar exceptional circumstances like tb depopulation etc (and probably plenty of that in Wicklow ha), but anyways in general any liquid milk farmer I'd know would be the opposite, oversupplying their liquid contract most winters, this is due to poor fertility and too many winter/late spring milkers.

stretch film

Timmaay wrote: »

I'd be surprised if there are many unfilled liquid quota litres out there, bar exceptional circumstances like tb depopulation etc (and probably plenty of that in Wicklow ha), but anyways in general any liquid milk farmer I'd know would be the opposite, oversupplying their liquid contract most winters, this is due to poor fertility and too many winter/late spring milkers.

fair enough but why should someone who wants to exit be unable too due to due to a buyer not being available in his locality.

Timmaay

stretch film wrote: »

fair enough but why should someone who wants to exit be unable too due to due to a buyer not being available in his locality.

That was for one of the trading schemes only, Glanbia had to go out and actively encourage some farmers to buy more liquid quota if it suited them, which helped balance it out for the last scheme. Would have made sense here to buy some short term as I've a poor enough surplus winter milk bonus, however if you purchase any your excluded from selling it for 3yrs, and I'll hopefully be well on my way to compact spring calving by then. If you under supply your liquid quota for the month you'll really only get a slap on the wrist supposed anyways. It's not as if say afew farmers under supplying will make a huge difference, when loads others are hugely over supplying ha, not much change of Glanbia being ever short on liquid milk over the winter any day soon!

atlantic mist

stretch film wrote: »

Liquid milk is a closed shop , similarly winter scheme is too.
No scope therefore for any existing supplier to increase winter output to help spread costs let alone room for new entrants.

No benefits given to liquid lads post demerger I can think of.
Price is manufacturing base + bonus over winter. Coop top up also going to liquid suppliers . Before you rear up over that one , be careful not to annoy your grain supplying neighbour.

no grain neighbours only manufacturing milk so im safe enough:) ive no issue with grain or liquid milk getting coop top ups

we have been trying to get additional winter quota but was told they want us to reduce our winter volume not increase it

freedominacup

Timmaay wrote: »

That was for one of the trading schemes only, Glanbia had to go out and actively encourage some farmers to buy more liquid quota if it suited them, which helped balance it out for the last scheme. Would have made sense here to buy some short term as I've a poor enough surplus winter milk bonus, however if you purchase any your excluded from selling it for 3yrs, and I'll hopefully be well on my way to compact spring calving by then. If you under supply your liquid quota for the month you'll really only get a slap on the wrist supposed anyways. It's not as if say afew farmers under supplying will make a huge difference, when loads others are hugely over supplying ha, not much change of Glanbia being ever short on liquid milk over the winter any day soon!

The only way to get their attention and it would cost a bit would be with no warning to tell them there would be no milk collection from 17th to 22nd of Dec. I guarantee you a reaction in that circumstance. Every producer would have to pull together (near impossible I know) but if they did the chaos that ensued would ensure that supermarkets as well as processors would be at the negotiating table very quickly asking how much.

Buford T. Justice XIX

freedominacup wrote: »

The only way to get their attention and it would cost a bit would be with no warning to tell them there would be no milk collection from 17th to 22nd of Dec. I guarantee you a reaction in that circumstance. Every producer would have to pull together (near impossible I know) but if they did the chaos that ensued would ensure that supermarkets as well as processors would be at the negotiating table very quickly asking how much.

You're assuming Strathroy will not be able to make up a fairly large portion of the shortfall.

WheatenBriar

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

You're assuming Strathroy will not be able to make up a fairly large portion of the shortfall.

Well you'd have to have their co operation
Some of whats saved from that IFA salary could be returned to suppliers as strike pay...

freedominacup

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

You're assuming Strathroy will not be able to make up a fairly large portion of the shortfall.

Yes I am but it's a pretty safe assumption if they have little notice. Second assumption is that when Mary soap is doing her Christmas shop she's going to want her brands and if there's no fresh irish branded dairy available you'd have to hope she's not going to be happy.

kowtow

freedominacup wrote: »

when Mary soap is doing her Christmas shop she's going to want her brands and if there's no fresh irish branded dairy available you'd have to hope she's not going to be happy.

Especially if the brand that isn't there is Baileys.

Buford T. Justice XIX

WheatenBriar wrote: »

Well you'd have to have their co operation
Some of whats saved from that IFA salary could be returned to suppliers as strike pay...

freedominacup wrote: »

Yes I am but it's a pretty safe assumption if they have little notice. Second assumption is that when Mary soap is doing her Christmas shop she's going to want her brands and if there's no fresh irish branded dairy available you'd have to hope she's not going to be happy.

Mary will still want the sup of milk for her tea and cereal for the kids in the morning so she will go where she can get milk, any Stratroy retailers. And a fair chunk of those will stay there, reducing demand and creating a surplus supply.

Look, I'm not arguing about the need for action, just pointing out the possible after effects.

stretch film

freedominacup wrote: »

The only way to get their attention and it would cost a bit would be with no warning to tell them there would be no milk collection from 17th to 22nd of Dec. I guarantee you a reaction in that circumstance. Every producer would have to pull together (near impossible I know) but if they did the chaos that ensued would ensure that supermarkets as well as processors would be at the negotiating table very quickly asking how much.

I wonder has the opportunity passed on that one . So much non liquid milk available to fill the gaps even within glanbia.
When it was never employed as a tactic when it would have had a bigger impact it wont be now imo

Gii reckon they have a handy 6M litres to pass through bellview 2 week of January

Timmaay

Doing as the French do and smash office windows with ducksh1it would be a much more effective method if we were to go down the protest road ha.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I imagine Govt Services would be the milk ring test for brucellosis. Or that could be Disease eradication, just spotted that now.

That's a damn good question, W2. I'll ask at the AGM this week.

I rang the creamery and found out what the deductions were for.

Bovine disease 0.060c/l. This is for the Milk Ring test for Brucellosis
Dairy Research Levy 0.036c/l. This is for Teagasc research (old AFT Levy)
Inspection Levy 0.100c/l. This is for general inspections of plant and hygiene and storage.
NDC levy 0.070c/l. This is the National Dairy Council levy to promote milk and help rugby players drink more for us;)

whelan2

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I rang the creamery and found out what the deductions were for.

Bovine disease 0.060c/l. This is for the Milk Ring test for Brucellosis
Dairy Research Levy 0.036c/l. This is for Teagasc research (old AFT Levy)
Inspection Levy 0.100c/l. This is for general inspections of plant and hygiene and storage.
NDC levy 0.070c/l. This is the National Dairy Council levy to promote milk and help rugby players drink more for us;)

Any idea on govt services?

kowtow

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I rang the creamery and found out what the deductions were for.

Inspection Levy 0.100c/l. This is for general inspections of plant and hygiene and storage.

Out of interest what exactly are these inspections and how often do they take place?

As far as I am aware we have to have a council inspection before we supply any milk to the co-op but none of my neighbours can ever remember having one. I think since they'd already been milking since God was a boy by the time the inspections came in they just ticked a box somewhere.

I'm assuming that Bord Bia inspections etc. are a separate deal.

Buford T. Justice XIX

whelan2 wrote: »

Any idea on govt services?

Those are the only ones Kerry are charged for

kowtow wrote: »

Out of interest what exactly are these inspections and how often do they take place?

As far as I am aware we have to have a council inspection before we supply any milk to the co-op but none of my neighbours can ever remember having one. I think since they'd already been milking since God was a boy by the time the inspections came in they just ticked a box somewhere.

I'm assuming that Bord Bia inspections etc. are a separate deal.

My understanding is that is a fee to pay for the on-site Dept staff in each processing site. They would be in charge of making sure all the storage and sites are clean and free from risk and the book keeping is accurate.

Basically, we pay to make sure everything is kept above board in the plants and storage.

kowtow

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Those are the only ones Kerry are charged for

My understanding is that is a fee to pay for the on-site Dept staff in each processing site. They would be in charge of making sure all the storage and sites are clean and free from risk and the book keeping is accurate.

Basically, we pay to make sure everything is kept above board in the plants and storage.

So these are the inspections at the creamery / plant not at the farm?

Good business when you can get your supplier to pay your overheads...

stretch film

kowtow wrote: »

So these are the inspections at the creamery / plant not at the farm?

Good business when you can get your supplier to pay your overheads...

Milk Quality control levy another of those beauties.

mahoney_j

Local area meetings on for Arrabawn coop this week ,there's 2 additional meetings for our new Glanbia and dairygold ex suppliers in Carlow and mallow in early January .......,

kowtow

I'm beginning to think that the biggest service the IFA has ever done farmers is to explode in this fit of greed and arrogance and wake us all up to the sheer number of different people and organisations helping themselves to easy money (no easier than a compulsory levy) on the back of hard, dangerous, and typically ill rewarded work.

The status quo is never so strong that it can't be questioned, cleaned up, turned on it's head and made fit for purpose - and that goes for every co-op, processor, factory, quango, association & whatever else in the chain.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

whelan2

:eek: the milk price thread moved off the front page. Was any one at the liquid milk meeting last night?

kowtow

There's a charming little video here of intensive grass based dairy in the UK in the 1960's..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqu02eXMnuU&sns=em

It's striking that the margin over concentrate per cow was £120... which (wait for it) is between £2,000 and £5,000 in today's money depending on which measure you use. His gross margin per acre was £76 (£1,233 to £3,745 in today's money).

Haven't got the UK historical series to hand but land prices at the time were likely to be in the very low hundreds (if that) per acre, so the margin on a single cow would likely have bought the acre she stood on.

Doesn't hurt to ask ourselves how we managed to get this far, with all the progress.

darragh_haven

kowtow wrote: »

There's a charming little video here of intensive grass based dairy in the UK in the 1960's..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqu02eXMnuU&sns=em

It's striking that the margin over concentrate per cow was £120... which (wait for it) is between £2,000 and £5,000 in today's money depending on which measure you use. His gross margin per acre was £76 (£1,233 to £3,745 in today's money).

Haven't got the UK historical series to hand but land prices at the time were likely to be in the very low hundreds (if that) per acre, so the margin on a single cow would likely have bought the acre she stood on.

Doesn't hurt to ask ourselves how we managed to get this far, with all the progress.

There has been unbelievable progression but the fruits of that progressing , like cream, rises to the top. Top of the coops, top of the IFA and top to the seller (supermarket )

keep going

kowtow wrote: »

There's a charming little video here of intensive grass based dairy in the UK in the 1960's..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqu02eXMnuU&sns=em

It's striking that the margin over concentrate per cow was £120... which (wait for it) is between £2,000 and £5,000 in today's money depending on which measure you use. His gross margin per acre was £76 (£1,233 to £3,745 in today's money).

Haven't got the UK historical series to hand but land prices at the time were likely to be in the very low hundreds (if that) per acre, so the margin on a single cow would likely have bought the acre she stood on.

Doesn't hurt to ask ourselves how we managed to get this far, with all the progress.

While the techniques have changed not alot wrong with the principles.btw loved the two lads spreading bag

Dawggone

darragh_haven wrote: »

There has been unbelievable progression but the fruits of that progressing , like cream, rises to the top. Top of the coops, top of the IFA and top to the seller (supermarket )

+1.

Kowtow touched on it last night on another thread.

It's the Monsanto's, Cargill's, Nestlé et al that are making the majority of the margin on our produce. The "invention" of cheap subsidized grains in the U.S. (and globalised markets) have spawned the monster that is modern agriculture.

Looking at the video brought me back to childhood when our produce was seen as FOOD. Now we need subsidies to produce a 'product' so that a processor can make food from it...like...chicken nuggets!

kowtow

Dawggone wrote: »

+1.

Looking at the video brought me back to childhood when our produce was seen as FOOD. Now we need subsidies to produce a 'product' so that a processor can make food from it...like...chicken nuggets!

Hmm.. no question that things cannot proceed indefinitely on the basis that the farmer risks more to get less, the consumer pays the same, and the chain pockets the difference - which although vastly oversimplified seems to be the case since about 1970 (*so* much about our life changed from 1971 onwards..)

That IFA thread sums the problem up in a nutshell though, when you start reading it you see farmers quite rightly complaining about the wider industry ripping them off.

By the time you get to the end you begin to realise how the industry gets away with it.

Dawggone

kowtow wrote: »

Hmm.. no question that things cannot proceed indefinitely on the basis that the farmer risks more to get less...


.

I don't agree. It will proceed indefinitely.
It is the established infrastructure of the industry that we do business in.
For any meaningful change to that infrastructure it would take a complete reversal of attitude of both consumer and producer alike.

kowtow

Dawggone wrote: »

I don't agree. It will proceed indefinitely.
It is the established infrastructure of the industry that we do business in.
For any meaningful change to that infrastructure it would take a complete reversal of attitude of both consumer and producer alike.

It's difficult to imagine the producer preferring today's returns over those referred to above? And is the consumer really more comfortable with agri-business and it's output - especially when you consider the hidden costs in healthcare & taxation he / she has to shell out to support it?

I think you are right though that neither consumer nor producer will make a change happen in their own right.

But that doesn't mean that the market itself won't.

A farm in today's world trades almost as if it was risk negative - millions invested, together with a significant quantity of valuable labour, to obtain a return which may well be less than the value of the labour itself. Even on a big farm, the returns are at or below what we would normally consider risk free assets, long duration bonds etc.

The financial return is the "price" of the risk, when you accept a low return you are paying a high price for the risk asset -

Just as we under-priced (overvalued) subprime in 2007/8 by paying 5x what we should have for baskets of rubbish debt, farmers today are holding and financing farms at imputed valuations, including their own labour, which would shame a gold plated sovereign debt - albeit that most of them are doing so from their own pockets with their own labour for perfectly admirable reasons.

But Eventually risk must re-price. A debt crisis among farmers? (imagine interest rates at 14% with land at today's prices..), a rapid collapse in land prices? A big collapse in a part of the processing chain when they finally run out of room to manoeuvre? A processed food scare/health crisis on a grand scale?

Any of them would have massive political consequences as well as economic.

* I should add that it is just about possible that farms are not overvalued, but in fact are the only thing that is correctly valued. It may be that the market is telling us that everything else is actually much riskier than we think. After all, when all the sovereign nations collapse and their debt goes up in flames, the farm and the skills you use to run it will at least feed you - provided that you are prepared to drink raw milk of course. And the processor / co-op / supply chain & the IFA will no longer be a problem.

kevthegaff

Got an msa in post today from arrabawn!

mahoney_j

kevthegaff wrote: »

Got an msa in post today from arrabawn!

Me too what u think ,u going to meeting tomorrow night

kowtow

I wonder how many at the top of the co-ops are frantically digging out their contracts tonight to see what the severance might be like if things take a turn for the worse...

keep going

kowtow wrote: »

Hmm.. no question that things cannot proceed indefinitely on the basis that the farmer risks more to get less, the consumer pays the same, and the chain pockets the difference - which although vastly oversimplified seems to be the case since about 1970 (*so* much about our life changed from 1971 onwards..)

That IFA thread sums the problem up in a nutshell though, when you start reading it you see farmers quite rightly complaining about the wider industry ripping them off.

By the time you get to the end you begin to realise how the industry gets away with it.

Not sure about that , the entire western economy and indeed life style is based on extracting a large margin on the work of poorer paid people in developing regions and relative cheap energy in the form of oil.to illustrate my point walk down any high street and how many shops are selling products actually manufactured in the developed world and then compare the margins they operate on, dont think the margins on food are any higher than on any other product.the entire retail economy including property values is dependant on cheap products being available, the only reason fa4mers are kept in business in the developed world is probably for food security
reasons.as buddy says "an army is only 3 square meals away from a mutiny"

RightTurnClyde

US coop is about to start applying quota to new or expanding suppliers
http://theglobaldairy.com/noticias/land-o-lakes-new-quota-shocks-eastern-milk-producers-44768/

kevthegaff

mahoney_j wrote: »

Me too what u think ,u going to meeting tomorrow night

I think it's not too stringent, I'll probably sign it but I'll have to read it again. Just wondering if we taken over will the msa still apply

wats the craic

kevthegaff wrote: »

I think it's not too stringent, I'll probably sign it but I'll have to read it again. Just wondering if we taken over will the msa still apply

how many yrs are you tied into and you leave freely without paying fines and 2 yrs notice

kowtow

kevthegaff wrote: »

I think it's not too stringent, I'll probably sign it but I'll have to read it again. Just wondering if we taken over will the msa still apply

You should argue against that as a point of principle although it will be very difficult to get. The value of any organisation when it comes to a merger is defined by how well it owns it's revenue stream, which is probably why MSA's are becoming a hot topic.

And the value of the organisation has a big influence on salaries and board positions in the merged entity.

But you should definitely argue for it, at least an accelerated option to exit the agreement in the event of a merger.

If you have it in front of you I'd be interested to hear what the wording is on allowing access to milk lorries for collection. Do you have to use reasonable efforts to provide access [and when] or "best efforts"?? The difference is an important one.

kevthegaff

keep going wrote: »

Not sure about that , the entire western economy and indeed life style is based on extracting a large margin on the work of poorer paid people in developing regions and relative cheap energy in the form of oil.to illustrate my point walk down any high street and how many shops are selling products actually manufactured in the developed world and then compare the margins they operate on, dont think the margins on food are any higher than on any other product.the entire retail economy including property values is dependant on cheap products being available, the only reason fa4mers are kept in business in the developed world is probably for food security
reasons.as buddy says "an army is only 3 square meals away from a mutiny"

+1 Good post
you'd wonder with gap divide between rich and poor across across the globe increasing will this affect intake of dairy products. You have to be worried about south America, eastern Europe, Russia increasing production, but will price restrict output or will they keep increasing production as food security measures. Maybe with the milk price lower wer seeing countries US and NZ starting the slow down, my biggest worry is other countries will push on. Hopefully not..

mahoney_j

kevthegaff wrote: »

I think it's not too stringent, I'll probably sign it but I'll have to read it again. Just wondering if we taken over will the msa still apply

Where u at meeting Thursday night ,personally and from crowd that was at it think it is very fair and balanced .12 month rolling contract with 6 month opt out and share requirement of 1.5 cent per litre which stops when price drops below 28 and kicks back in with no claw back when it goes back over 28'.i even met and was talking to some of the refugees !!!!!!,we took in from dairygold and they had no issue with it and when question was asked of them by top table that was there response along with if they were offered that by dairygold they would of probably staid

kowtow

mahoney_j wrote: »

Where u at meeting Thursday night ,personally and from crowd that was at it think it is very fair and balanced .12 month rolling contract with 6 month opt out and share requirement of 1.5 cent per litre which stops when price drops below 28 and kicks back in with no claw back when it goes back over 28'.i even met and was talking to some of the refugees !!!!!!,we took in from dairygold and they had no issue with it and when question was asked of them by top table that was there response along with if they were offered that by dairygold they would of probably staid

Doesn't sound unreasonable on the face of it.

mahoney_j

kowtow wrote: »

Doesn't sound unreasonable on the face of it.

I've had my share of grievances with coop but even I will admit it's fair ,balanced and non penal