Milk Price- Please read Mod note in post #1

Farmer Ed

barnaman wrote: »

As an Agriloan? Mortgage rates at that for sure but not seen any Agri loans that low even though same bloody thing ie loan secured on land.

The banks are robbing people. Their getting money for nothing and lending it on for a tidy margin. Backing brave my arse. More like robbing brave.

kevthegaff

barnaman wrote: »

As an Agriloan? Mortgage rates at that for sure but not seen any Agri loans that low even though same bloody thing ie loan secured on land.

Near templemore barnaman? I am paying just above 2% on loans from 08, loans atm around 5%

barnaman

Would plus that a billion if I could. Paying back 135,000 in interest which is plenty and thats if base stays at zero.

barnaman

kevthegaff wrote: »

barnaman wrote: »

As an Agriloan? Mortgage rates at that for sure but not seen any Agri loans that low even though same bloody thing ie loan secured on land.

Near templemore barnaman? I am paying just above 2% on loans from 08, loans atm around 5%

Add your reply here.

No Tipp town side of Cashel. What size are those loans? You could have old loans not available anymore as we are recapitilising the banks. Know a lad on tracker mortage that seems to be paying 1 per cent interest on his loan not a chance get one of those these days!

barnaman

Just saw last bit around 5 yeah 5.4 which I have seem right then.

kevthegaff

barnaman wrote: »

Add your reply here.

No Tipp town side of Cashel. What size are those loans? You could have old loans not available anymore as we are recapitilising the banks. Know a lad on tracker mortage that seems to be paying 1 per cent interest on his loan not a chance get one of those these days!

70k and 50k

frazzledhome

My thoughts on bank finance for what it's worth.

You supply the necessary info

You get approval, verbal

Offer documents arrive in the post and most think great I'll sign these. This is the point where people need to pause.

Any offer letters I've received an elephant wouldn't sign. You need to go through line by line, noting any changes you want.

In writing let them know and this is where the real negotiation starts. Some are so delighted with the offer and perhaps due to time constraints sign immediately.

Oh, I almost forgot the dolly bird selling life insurance will also visit for a few signatures.

You do not need to take their cover and in fact in some cases cover isn't actually required. If you do take be sure to get financial advice as if you pop your clogs the bank will get paid but your kin may have phuck all after the tax bill. The folly bird will be paid as that's where your first 1-2 yrs premiums go.

Thread slowly, they will slow things as much as possible to frustrate you into accepting their original offer.

My rule is that they are mearly money shops and like any other purchase one should always bargain and never accept the first offer.

They have teams of spotty graduated who's mother still knots their ties forming letters to drown you in paper.

The negotiating doesn't start till you get your offer letter

kowtow

frazzledhome wrote: »

My thoughts on bank finance for what it's worth.

You supply the necessary info

You get approval, verbal

Offer documents arrive in the post and most think great I'll sign these. This is the point where people need to pause.

Any offer letters I've received an elephant wouldn't sign. You need to go through line by line, noting any changes you want.

In writing let them know and this is where the real negotiation starts. Some are so delighted with the offer and perhaps due to time constraints sign immediately.

Oh, I almost forgot the dolly bird selling life insurance will also visit for a few signatures.

You do not need to take their cover and in fact in some cases cover isn't actually required. If you do take be sure to get financial advice as if you pop your clogs the bank will get paid but your kin may have phuck all after the tax bill. The folly bird will be paid as that's where your first 1-2 yrs premiums go.

Thread slowly, they will slow things as much as possible to frustrate you into accepting their original offer.

My rule is that they are mearly money shops and like any other purchase one should always bargain and never accept the first offer.

They have teams of spotty graduated who's mother still knots their ties forming letters to drown you in paper.

The negotiating doesn't start till you get your offer letter

Excellent advice, and you are perfectly right about the personae of retail banks. Ireland was probably the last to convert to this money shop culture (at least compared to US, UK) but we've done it with a vengeance.

Its an odd contrast, when negotiating small / personal loans there is this mad pretence going on that the loan will certainly paid back, because default is a dirty word. As a result contractual terms (90% of which are there to cover default) don't get an airing and often come back to bite the unlucky borrower.

Ironically, on big commercial lending deals the size, term, and rate can be summed up in a 30 character SMS or bloomberg headline. We normally leave them till last. Almost all we talk about during loan negotation is how little we're prepared to risk to the bank as security (if we're the borrower) and how little the bank is prepared to take, or how flexible it's pre-default terms will be in order for it to get the business. We'd often have virtually designed the future bankruptcy of a building or portfolio before we'd shaken hands on the finance of it.

Farmer Ed

Some of these msas afectifly mean you have agreed to secure the co ops borrowings also with a guarantee to supply your milk. The worst part is at least one agreement I saw does not just apply to the co op but also extends to any new owner of the co op should it be taken over. Essentially the co op is using the farmer as security with the banks. It's a pity more people didn't read that a bit more carefully before signing.

kowtow

Farmer Ed wrote: »

The worst part is at least one agreement I saw does not just apply to the co op but also extends to any new owner of the co op should it be taken over.

Yup, those kind of unequal novation clauses are one of the things that bug me.

Banks always reserve the right to sell the loan asset on.

For the sake of equality, you should reserve the right to sell or transfer the loan obligation on... or in the case of the co-op the benefit of the MSA.

alps

kowtow wrote: »

Yup, those kind of unequal novation clauses are one of the things that bug me.

Banks always reserve the right to sell the loan asset on.

For the sake of equality, you should reserve the right to sell or transfer the loan obligation on... or in the case of the co-op the benefit of the MSA.

It was so very dissapionting that the farmers needs and requirements were not negotiated for in the drawing up of some of these MSAs. I can never forgive the farmer reps in Dairygold for not looking after the farmers side in things like the tax treatment of their investment. Kowtow refers to anoth er glaring ommission at the time, and that is that a farmer cannot now sell his business as a going concern....The farmer really needed that freedom, to "assign or transfer"(as the coop can) the msa in the event of he selling the farm.
These types of inclusions would have made no significant difference to what the coop needed out of the msa, but farmer reps just let us down in so many ways, particularly in their defensiveness when items were pointed out....

whelan2

ANY January milk prices yet?

Water John

Alps that is one of the breakdowns as a result of a dysfunctional IFA. There is so much tie in between board members and senior IFA people in the dairy sector.
So many opinions and motions eg independent milk testing, never saw the light of day. Or you had senior IFA people speaking against ind testing at coop meetings. Even though that was IFA policy.
Any IFA office holder publicly supporting a contrary view should resign.
That has to stop.

alps

Water John wrote: »

Alps that is one of the breakdowns as a result of a dysfunctional IFA. There is so much tie in between board members and senior IFA people in the dairy sector.
So many opinions and motions eg independent milk testing, never saw the light of day. Or you had senior IFA people speaking against ind testing at coop meetings. Even though that was IFA policy.
Any IFA office holder publicly supporting a contrary view should resign.
That has to stop.

Breakdown of farmer representation at coop level John......not everything in the world is the fault of the IFA.....
However it was impossible to build traction in the IFA regarding this issue.....The reason being, if the farmer representation was ok with it, then it's ok.....

atlantic mist

alps wrote: »

It was so very dissapionting that the farmers needs and requirements were not negotiated for in the drawing up of some of these MSAs. I can never forgive the farmer reps in Dairygold for not looking after the farmers side in things like the tax treatment of their investment. Kowtow refers to anoth er glaring ommission at the time, and that is that a farmer cannot now sell his business as a going concern....The farmer really needed that freedom, to "assign or transfer"(as the coop can) the msa in the event of he selling the farm.
These types of inclusions would have made no significant difference to what the coop needed out of the msa, but farmer reps just let us down in so many ways, particularly in their defensiveness when items were pointed out....

well have to bring milk supply into valuation of land, the land is worth more if your supplying west cork coops, strathroy or lakelands:)

got my MSA delivered yesterday, (i never signed previously as my name was not on milk account, have been warned i will miss all future bonuses, im wondering could i achieve better going it alone, between dwags organics and all the cottage industry that we should have here has me thinking) oh decisions decisions, if you sign the MSA can you actually start producing finished product at home or is that considered supplying someone else?

atlantic mist

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2016/0215/768054-oil/

iran back in the oil game, first load heading to france

Water John

I don't know where you are or who you supply, Mist, but I'd give it a lot of thought before signing any long term contract.
If its a short MSA, which some processors offer I would be much more amenable.

Alps, I know full well the 'blocking' done within the IFA. This did not begin in the recent past as some are trying to spin. Easily 15/20 years.

When IFA went to look at representing farmers who were approached for land options for wind farms in the midlands, they approached the top firm of solicitors in Ireland on renewable energy, Beauchamps, to structure the options and leases. This is for a very niche group.
Amazingly, no such approach was even considered to represent farmers when MSA's were enforced by processors on dairy farmers.
Each farmer was left to his own devices.
That is exactly the role of IFA.

Farmers need to be very ready for the next round of such negotiations. Don't go in to be picked off one by one.

rangler1

Water John wrote: »

I don't know where you are or who you supply, Mist, but I'd give it a lot of thought before signing any long term contract.
If its a short MSA, which some processors offer I would be much more amenable.

Alps, I know full well the 'blocking' done within the IFA. This did not begin in the recent past as some are trying to spin. Easily 15/20 years.

When IFA went to look at representing farmers who were approached for land options for wind farms in the midlands, they approached the top firm of solicitors in Ireland on renewable energy, Beauchamps, to structure the options and leases. This is for a very niche group.
Amazingly, no such approach was even considered to represent farmers when MSA's were enforced by processors on dairy farmers.
Each farmer was left to his own devices.
That is exactly the role of IFA.

Farmers need to be very ready for the next round of such negotiations. Don't go in to be picked off one by one.

That really reinforces my argument, completely different commitee involved with wind farms than dairy, so not surprising there's a different approach. the commitee needed outside expertise and got it. commitees work independent of each other. it's not that milk is more or less important, it's just a different commitee, in fact i was on that project team and can't remember any dairy farmer being on it.....nice to see you praising at least one commitee that i was on.
Can't understand you guys being so critical and yet not bothering to get involved......wouldn't be my way

Dawggone

Was Simon in Brussels today?

France's Min for Ag (Le Foll) was in Brussels today pushing proposals to up base intervention trigger price...and pushing for any aid to be linked to farmers that drop their level of production.

Seemingly his proposals are gaining traction with German, Spanish, Italian and Polish counterparts.

Looks like he is swinging both barrels at Ireland and Holland?

RightTurnClyde

whelan2 wrote: »

ANY January milk prices yet?

Glanbia, is holding Jans price @ 25

Dawggone

atlantic mist wrote: »

well have to bring milk supply into valuation of land, the land is worth more if your supplying west cork coops, strathroy or lakelands:)

got my MSA delivered yesterday, (i never signed previously as my name was not on milk account, have been warned i will miss all future bonuses, im wondering could i achieve better going it alone, between dwags organics and all the cottage industry that we should have here has me thinking) oh decisions decisions, if you sign the MSA can you actually start producing finished product at home or is that considered supplying someone else?

Organic is starting to look increasingly attractive...
However I'm reluctant to go down the road of a large processor branding and marketing my produce. Just doesn't sit right with me...

Dawggone

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Glanbia, is holding Jans price @ 25

Is that inc Coop support and vat?

Water John

You'll have to develop the project yourself Dawgone.
Look at the Glenisk model. What did they sell for a few years ago and still run the business?

Dawggone

Water John wrote: »

You'll have to develop the project yourself Dawgone.
Look at the Glenisk model. What did they sell for a few years ago and still run the business?

I certainly don't have the know-how or the apetite for such a project. Way too old...

Water John

Ah Dawgone, we are mature not old.

kowtow

Dawggone wrote: »

I certainly don't have the know-how or the apetite for such a project. Way too old...

Hmmm.

Timmaay

Dwag you'll love this: https://charliehebdo.fr/en/edito/ploughing-up-the-grass-to-get-humped-up-the-ass/

WheatenBriar

Dawggone wrote: »

Is that inc Coop support and vat?

Yes
Real cost to them about 22c

Dawggone

Timmaay wrote: »

Dwag you'll love this: https://charliehebdo.fr/en/edito/ploughing-up-the-grass-to-get-humped-up-the-ass/

"Things are only cheap when you remove their value"...

Thing about that article is that three dairy farmers in Brittany took their own lives last week, because of milk price...Charlie Hebdo, is the kind of publication that Albert Camus would find amusing, but I find it grates a little bit. Camus was an absurdist and questioned whether suicide was the correct response to an absurd world...




The article uses Camus's philosophy to poke 'fun' (?) at farmers when blatantly implying that the answer is in front of their nose...organic.

Sorry off topic.



Edit. This post is not in the spirit of the thread so I'd like to add that I'm more of a Baudelaire kinda man!

RightTurnClyde

Dawggone wrote: »

Is that inc Coop support and vat?

Including vat and 1cent support

mahoney_j

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Including vat and 1cent support

The auld cookie jar must be getting small now ,gdt again expecting another drop this week with wmp expected to be back 10%.

Dawggone

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Including vat and 1cent support

I was speaking to someone that was at the N. Tipp's do with Mr.Brosnan speaking.
Not encouraging.
I was keeping an eye on RTE for the leaders debate at same time...
Jesus wept.



A bunch of buffoons with a handful of arts degrees between them...FFS.



Again off topic. Apologies.

frazzledhome

mahoney_j wrote: »

The auld cookie jar must be getting small now ,gdt again expecting another drop this week with wmp expected to be back 10%.

Loads still in it and it will continue for this year with €7/tonne rebate on all feed and Fertilizer.

A question for yourself, have ye been told yet much ye're milk is being subbed by?

mahoney_j

frazzledhome wrote: »

Loads still in it and it will continue for this year with €7/tonne rebate on all feed and Fertilizer.

A question for yourself, have ye been told yet much ye're milk is being subbed by?

Sure we're been paid what market is returning for our product mix !!!,very hard get straight answer on that ,we were told in November our base was rock solid till March cheque cashed as most of milk going to luquid .

frazzledhome

mahoney_j wrote: »

Sure we're been paid what market is returning for our product mix !!!,very hard get straight answer on that ,we were told in November our base was rock solid till March cheque cashed as most of milk going to luquid .

Price won't change for 2-3 mths, that business is done.

I know you don't believe coop isn't subbing milk

st1979

atlantic mist wrote:

got my MSA delivered yesterday, (i never signed previously as my name was not on milk account, have been warned i will miss all future bonuses, im wondering could i achieve better going it alone, between dwags organics and all the cottage industry that we should have here has me thinking) oh decisions decisions, if you sign the MSA can you actually start producing finished product at home or is that considered supplying someone else?

With Glanbia you can use your own milk for such a venture without messing up your msa.

Dawggone

frazzledhome wrote: »

Loads still in it and it will continue for this year with €7/tonne rebate on all feed and Fertilizer.

Out of interest, what price is a ton of rolled barley or maize in Glanbia?

What price is a ton of CAN or Urea?

Farmer Ed

Seems to me that the co op crying the most about having to raid the cookie jar doesn't even have a cookie jar. The only reason they didn't fall far behind the others before now, was the fear of losing more suppliers. The co ops with a poor product mix and large borrowings look set to be exposed badly this year. Just hope the stronger Co ops won't be tempted to drop the price in solidarity with them. This thing about having to support milk price is nothing more than an admission that they have no market for their product mix.

Greengrass1

Dawggone wrote: »

Out of interest, what price is a ton of rolled barley or maize in Glanbia?

What price is a ton of CAN or Urea?

350 for urea

pedigree 6

Greengrass1 wrote: »

350 for urea

Correct 10 euro dearer than the blue cover fertiliser and delivered in yard.

kowtow

mahoney_j wrote: »

The auld cookie jar must be getting small now ,gdt again expecting another drop this week with wmp expected to be back 10%.

Have a feeling in my bones that the GDT fall may have been overshot by the futures for the time being and might be a bit less painful than expected, but I could be very very wrong.

We'll see in an hour or two I expect.

atlantic mist

rolled barely 170 a tonne, 150 not rolled

if we are in an oversupply situation world wide where does the wasted product go/end up??

eu never lost money on intervention stock, world consumer retail prices havent dropped in line with commodities funny old world

frazzledhome

Farmer Ed wrote: »

Seems to me that the co op crying the most about having to raid the cookie jar doesn't even have a cookie jar. The only reason they didn't fall far behind the others before now, was the fear of losing more suppliers. The co ops with a poor product mix and large borrowings look set to be exposed badly this year. Just hope the stronger Co ops won't be tempted to drop the price in solidarity with them. This thing about having to support milk price is nothing more than an admission that they have no market for their product mix.

Only place I hear mention of support is here ??

keep going

kowtow wrote: »

Have a feeling in my bones that the GDT fall may have been overshot by the futures for the time being and might be a bit less painful than expected, but I could be very very wrong.

We'll see in an hour or two I expect.

Just so your not lonely , I think you might be right but its a case of bumping along the bottom for a while

kowtow

keep going wrote:

Just so your not lonely , I think you might be right but its a case of bumping along the bottom for a while

I'm sure you could be right.

Predicting cash prices over time frames longer than about 5 seconds makes me nervous.

Dawggone

kowtow wrote: »

Predicting cash prices over time frames longer than about 5 seconds makes me nervous.

True.
What makes me nervous is EU politicians meddling in a milk market...usually a poor outcome. French now pushing hard to curb supply. That will only help the Yanks and Kiwis...

patsy_mccabe

Dawggone wrote: »

True.
What makes me nervous is EU politicians meddling in a milk market...usually a poor outcome. French now pushing hard to curb supply. That will only help the Yanks and Kiwis...

Curb supply? Isn't that what Milk Quotas were for?

Dawggone

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Curb supply? Isn't that what Milk Quotas were for?

Yes.
The Kiwis had (imo), an open goal for over 30yrs...then we abolish quotas and less than a year later, push to bring them back again?? Crazy.
EU farmers are already subsidised by sfp. It's not like quotas were pulled overnight! It was signaled for years AND dairy farmers got a little taster what it could be like in '09.
I would be in favor of increasing intervention price in the short term, but no curb in supply.
Tillage farmers here are looking to the north west thinking wtf?

blackdog1

Dawggone wrote: »

Yes.
The Kiwis had (imo), an open goal for over 30yrs...then we abolish quotas and less than a year later, push to bring them back again?? Crazy.
EU farmers are already subsidised by sfp. It's not like quotas were pulled overnight! It was signaled for years AND dairy farmers got a little taster what it could be like in '09.
I would be in favor of increasing intervention price in the short term, but no curb in supply.
Tillage farmers here are looking to the north west thinking wtf?

I would only be in favour of quotas if it was enforced in every major supplying country and each year increased with demand. No point one country or group taking the pain and the rest getting a free ride.

jaymla627

blackdog1 wrote: »

I would only be in favour of quotas if it was enforced in every major supplying country and each year increased with demand. No point one country or group taking the pain and the rest getting a free ride.

How is it going to be implemented will their be a reference year like 2015, our will it go back to your original quota ...
Its an absolute minefield to be honest and could sink a good few new entrants/lads doubling numbers etc if it does come to pass