Where to make savings in education budget

mick kk

It was interesting watching prime time last night. They had a guy on from the UK. His point was that if you ask the staff where the problems are, then you can save money in that manner, rather than the "one-size fits all" approach to cutting the cost of the public sector.

So, does anyone see anywhere we could make savings in the education sector?

My feelings are that the 33 hours of CP1 we do are actually an inefficeiny and a complete waste of time in many schools.
My suggestion is to use that [roughly 1 hr. per week] for supervision and substitution.

I actually voted no because of these 33 hours and the complete waste of time that they are. I felt that the 47 hours on top of the 33 would be too much - It would have resulted in more days with 9 classes per day and then 2 hours of sitting around talking nonsence after school which would just have been too much to take!

So, does anyone have any other suggestions on where they could save money in the education budget?

Susie120704

It was actually the 33 hours increased to 49 hours not an extra 47 hours

Susie120704

Cutting a lot of the inspections would both save money and lessen stress on teachers. Performance can be measured through results and less inspections

hfallada

Reduce the amount of years spent in school and therefore reduce numbers of new teachers needed. I think Irish spend the most years in primary and secondary school in Europe. Germany recently cut 13 years spent in school to 12 years. Condense 8 years of primary into 7 years and abolish 4 th years in secondary as if ask a majority of students they gain very little.

Susie120704

Transition year is essential to enable students to mature. Cutting it would be detrimental to their development and would mean less would get to college as they would not have the maturity to study properly.

spurious

Three or four small schools in most Irish towns triplicating resources and non-pay expenses.

Inspector Coptoor

^^^^


Best point here.

We needs more schools in the 1000 student bracket as running costs/site costs tend to be similar regardless of site size

spurious

It would also do away with the 'better school' nonsense locally.

highly1111

yep - simple economies of scale. Too many schools. Obviously schools in rural areas have to be provided but by merging schools you'd make sufficient savings to provide a bus service between villages.

doc_17

Susie120704 wrote: »

It was actually the 33 hours increased to 49 hours not an extra 47 hours

Unless you weren't in S&S, in which case it would be an 49

doc_17

Probably won't be popular with language teachers but the orals could be looked at for saving a bit of money.

Personally I'd teach an extra hour a week instead of the 33 hours extra we were forced to do. Be enter use of my time but I wouldn't be happy with the effect it would have on teachers with part tie jobs

highly1111

Another suggestion is to scratch the payment system for supervising state exams - it should be a lottery system for permanent staff but you could T&C it so that you wouldn't be selected more than once every 5 years or however it could be worked out. But I do find it strange that we pay teachers to supervise the state exams. (I don't know ANY permanent teachers who apply to do it - but I'm sure they're are some)

On the same vein you could also make it mandatory for teachers to correct the state exams once every 7 years or something??

I've only thought of these 2 suggestions off the top of my head - I'm sure that there are several difficulties which I've overlooked.

Chemical Burn

mick kk wrote: »

It was interesting watching prime time last night. They had a guy on from the UK. His point was that if you ask the staff where the problems are, then you can save money in that manner, rather than the "one-size fits all" approach to cutting the cost of the public sector.

So, does anyone see anywhere we could make savings in the education sector?

My feelings are that the 33 hours of CP1 we do are actually an inefficeiny and a complete waste of time in many schools.
My suggestion is to use that [roughly 1 hr. per week] for supervision and substitution.

I actually voted no because of these 33 hours and the complete waste of time that they are. I felt that the 47 hours on top of the 33 would be too much - It would have resulted in more days with 9 classes per day and then 2 hours of sitting around talking nonsence after school which would just have been too much to take!

So, does anyone have any other suggestions on where they could save money in the education budget?

Abolish transition year and Junior Cert

Inspector Coptoor

highly1111 wrote: »

Another suggestion is to scratch the payment system for supervising state exams - it should be a lottery system for permanent staff but you could T&C it so that you wouldn't be selected more than once every 5 years or however it could be worked out. But I do find it strange that we pay teachers to supervise the state exams. (I don't know ANY permanent teachers who apply to do it - but I'm sure they're are some)

On the same vein you could also make it mandatory for teachers to correct the state exams once every 7 years or something??

I've only thought of these 2 suggestions off the top of my head - I'm sure that there are several difficulties which I've overlooked.

This simply wouldn't work.
The state exams run well because a lot people do the job year on year.

The same could be said with the correcting, which is soul destroying work & deserves remuneration.

joebloggs32

doc_17 wrote: »

Probably won't be popular with language teachers but the orals could be looked at for saving a bit of money.

Personally I'd teach an extra hour a week instead of the 33 hours extra we were forced to do. Be enter use of my time but I wouldn't be happy with the effect it would have on teachers with part tie jobs

Spot on. This week we have a teacher who is away from class, but a sub is brought in and paid, while the one who is away is also paid for the week even though she is not there, but is actually being paid to do other work during this time. So that is three wages for two jobs. The orals are also very disruptive as students come and go.
They should have them at Easter, less disruptive and less expensive.

highly1111

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

This simply wouldn't work.
The state exams run well because a lot people do the job year on year.

The same could be said with the correcting, which is soul destroying work & deserves remuneration.

I think the supervision idea could work - but I completely agree with you about the correcting - it is the soul destroying from what I have heard. Unfortunately, despite applying for it several times I've never gotten it. But if we need to get savings, it might be worth looking at. That said, I'm *just* a subject teacher and have never being involved in management so I'm sure there is more obvious suggestions.

derb12

But is it not soul-destroying because of the bulk of exams that teachers have to correct - massive bags full of 500 papers or more?
If more people did it, there would be less for each person to do, so less effort needed.
I would certainly be up for correcting say 100 papers every two years - roughly twice the number of LC/JC students I usually have so it could balance out with other teachers doing it every other year.
I haven't corrected exams for a while as I would barely break even on childcare costs, and I do feel that my approach to exams and corrections isn't as razor sharp as a result.
Interesting - we discussed this general topic here a few years back. I don't think anyone in the dept was looking here for ideas, or have there been any non-detrimental cost savings introduced in the meantime?
At least the poxy TC fee has gone down!

My suggestion for cost savings are around exams. I agree that that double/triple payment for orals is mad. Also, in my school, any student using a laptop needed a separate exam centre, invigilator etc. Surely they could use one room and just ban the really clickity clackety keyboards?
Also, it is absolutely necessary that students sit exams in their own school? Could larger more economic exam centres not be used?

teacherhead

Totally agree re: the oral exams. Paying three times. Orals could be held over Easter save on subbing, I know subs would lose out but it is outrageous.

Ag Science projects also - are they written only? or is there a physical item? Afaik they are just a folder - piggyback them onto the paper and mark them in June like the history / junior science etc.

While I'm at it, Junior cert project work could be photographed and compiled into a folio and despatched in a similar way. I know it is difficult to assess quality of finish etc. from a photo - even giving the class teacher a fee per candidate payment and reducing the costs on travel / subsistence for examiners would be beneficial in savings terms.

DCG projects are printed out on expensive paper in colour and posted to Athlone, in addition there is a CD sent with an electronic copy. Why not just mark the electronic copy and use email?

Will I stay going?

2011abc

Yes,go and KEEP going -and take Highly111 with ya !You guys ARE Ruairi's two young 'special advisors' spamming right !?Correct and supervise LC for free on a rota basis ???!!!How about asking a language teacher if they want to come in for free over Easter hols for orals (not that many dont do 'rehearsals' then anyway )Teachers union members have sent their message ...Not another minute,not another cent !!!

Genuine money saving suggestions ?How about cutting back on the scandalous waste in paying for school buildings and supplies ?Pitiful quality work given to lowest bidder at multiples of the sensible cost of the item/work.Bag of sugar ?69c from Lidl ,Hell no that'll be 3.99 from the 'official' supplier (teacher cant be bothered/doesnt have time to get it from Lidl as good will eroded /wont be repaid for ages etc )Minor renovation work in a specialist room?/Upgrade toilet facilities ?10-20k max with a bit of help thrown in by a few local handy folk ?HELL NO!!! 100-200k with multiple (multi thousand)redrafts by architects as budget shrinks from 200k to 150k to 100k ...Jesus Wept!

Inspector Coptoor

2011abc wrote: »

Yes,go and KEEP going -and take Highly111 with ya !You guys ARE Ruairi's two young 'special advisors' spamming right !?Correct and supervise LC for free on a rota basis ???!!!How about asking a language teacher if they want to come in for free over Easter hols for orals (not that many dont do 'rehearsals' then anyway )Teachers union members have sent their message ...Not another minute,not another cent !!!

To be fair - the point here was that three wages wouldn't be paid to do 2 jobs.

The teachers doing orals sign up to do the extra work & they do & should get paid for it, BUT it shouldn't be during school time allowing them to double job.

I correct LC exams, if my pay was touched got that, I wouldn't do it, BUT, it's done outside term time.

There are huge inefficiencies in the DES.
It's a very expensive Dept to run as most of the money goes on paying people's wages, circa 75%, but the other 25% could be & now needs to be, better spent.

byhookorbycrook

Get rid of prefabs that are rented at a huge cost over many years. Do away with hard copies of various school circulars etc. Pay R Quinn a teacher rate. Make sure all tds retire and do not attempt to claim a teaching pension AND a Dáil pension.

rainbowtrout

teacherhead wrote: »

Totally agree re: the oral exams. Paying three times. Orals could be held over Easter save on subbing, I know subs would lose out but it is outrageous.

Ag Science projects also - are they written only? or is there a physical item? Afaik they are just a folder - piggyback them onto the paper and mark them in June like the history / junior science etc.

While I'm at it, Junior cert project work could be photographed and compiled into a folio and despatched in a similar way. I know it is difficult to assess quality of finish etc. from a photo - even giving the class teacher a fee per candidate payment and reducing the costs on travel / subsistence for examiners would be beneficial in savings terms.

DCG projects are printed out on expensive paper in colour and posted to Athlone, in addition there is a CD sent with an electronic copy. Why not just mark the electronic copy and use email?

Will I stay going?

That's not making savings, that's cutting corners.


I don't think it's fair to make cost cutting suggestions if you are not familiar with the subject and lump it in under 'sure it'll be grand'

Ag Science involves an oral interview. So no, projects can't just be sent off in an envelope.

If you are assessing a construction project, it would be an insult to a student if they have put work into the construction or finish of the project to just say we'll photograph that and mark it based on the photograph.

Many people wouldn't buy furniture based on a photo, they would want to feel it, touch it, sit on it, see the build quality, look at the materials it's made from, check the finish.

Don't relegate physical projects to a cost cutting exercise. Cost cutting should be about making real savings where they can be made, not cut costs and reducing quality as a result.



Actual money saving ideas:

In towns where further education centres are running and often offering the same courses under different schemes (PLC, FAS, VTOS, BTEI etc). Merge them, offer the same thing, and students can apply for the various grants and entitlements on a case by case basis. There is terrible waste in the adult education sector in duplication of courses where some are oversubscribed and in others students are not eligible to enrol on a course in one centre because they will lose their social welfare entitlements but if they enrol on the same course in another centre they won't. Ridiculous set up.



Expenses for examiners, everything to be vouched for. Currently examiners on the road for oral exams etc can claim for the overnight allowance if they are more than 15 miles from their home. That wasn't a typo, it is 15 miles.

TheDriver

33 hours are CP and PT meetings. S&S is on top of this so indeed it would be 37/49 hours extra on top of that.

Build schools correctly to start with to save costing a fortune in repairs.
Close down multiple schools in towns
Oral exams/corrections etc SEC is desperately inefficient
Exam centres in general

On another point, is it correct that part of our sub to the unions goes to the labour party?

killbillvol2

Someone should forward these suggestions to our socialist Minister for Education, as soon as he gets back from Thatcher's funeral.

whiteandlight

Why not have orals the week after school ends in june in 5th year? Have them out of the way for students before the leaving cert. would prevent the triple payments and also spread the extra money a bit further as you would have to chose state exams/orals instead of both.

Practical realities I think should leave the correction as it is. It would cost a fortune in admin to try and organise it as suggested with teachers doing 100 papers every 2 years. I do think that teachers should be encouraged to do it even if the pay is poor so I would propose a cut in the number of papers per teacher and a relative adjustment to pay with more teachers hired to do it. I would happily do 150-200 papers but once you go above the 250 mark your brain just fries.

I honestly believe many of the enormous expenses in schools are to do with poor investment in education over the years but would require investment to reduce them. Eg
Heating:
buildings are poorly insulated and prefabs leak heat. Dreadful controls in many schools mean heating times cannot be adjusted easily
Electricity:
rooms don't have sensor lights meaning that students and teachers inevitably forget to turn off lights when they should. Hot water provision is not really necessary except in the labs/kitchens/staff room.
Technology:
A tablet and projector plus software combine to eliminate the need for costly markers and dusters (I have this now and it's great but had to pay for it myself)
Students using tablets mean class specific handouts can be created and don't need to be printed/photocopied
Teachers using tablets with enforced paperless school would result in an enormous reduction in outlay on paper/ink/toner
VECs management
Learn how to use a computer. The amount of ridiculous paperwork is insane in particular the farce of teacher cover forms in Kildare (if not others) which have to be handwritten on a weekly basis. This is an utter waste of time for staff, management and the VEC office staff.
Reform of admin side:
dept of education share and force VEC to use their system of payments/staff management. There should be no need to have someone read each individual form when it could all be entered and processed digitally. Automatic acknowledgement to all email received. Time frame on all queries/contacts. Ring back if you say you will (personal bugbear not specific to the department!)

That's just some off the top of my head..

Edit: I may have gone off on one-sorry!!

Boober Fraggle

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Why not have orals the week after school ends in june in 5th year? Have them out of the way for students before the leaving cert. would prevent the triple payments and also spread the extra money a bit further as you would have to chose state exams/orals instead of both.

Practical realities I think should leave the correction as it is. It would cost a fortune in admin to try and organise it as suggested with teachers doing 100 papers every 2 years. I do think that teachers should be encouraged to do it even if the pay is poor so I would propose a cut in the number of papers per teacher and a relative adjustment to pay with more teachers hired to do it. I would happily do 150-200 papers but once you go above the 250 mark your brain just fries.

A lot of students improve greatly over the summer, and in 6th year in oral work, it would cut out the opportunity to go to the gaeltacht/abroad to improve language skills for the oral. I appreciate your point though. They could be done in the October midterm/the February midterm or Easter. I think some language teachers who are reluctant to leave their classes during term time would be more likely to want to go out and correct too.

More correctors would mean more expense for the SEC. Where would they find hall/rooms big enough to hold conferences? It would become unwieldy and standards would drop. They would also have to pay out more in travel expenses and administration fees.

Are VEC's in their present form necessary? What do they do? I'm not in a VEC school, so I may be off course, but I think they are an extra layer of administation which could be done without.

solerina

I think that as many people have said the Orals are the biggest waste of money (along with music and Home Ec practicals) if you want to supervise them you should be doing it during mid term/easter holidays so that only 2 payments are involved not 3.....that will make a decent start anyway.

mick kk

Another one is the conference for the art practicals [jc] - it takes place during school week and teachers are covered by a sub - paying two people to do one job. Should take place at weekend or midterm although it means less opportunities for a sub.


As regards the vouched expenses for the orals and correcting, the thing is that with the USC, PAYE, PRSI, and Pension levy, all of this work has become not worthwhile doing [although a very good experience] which means the overnights just about make it worthwhile....alternatively, end the expenses and pay for this work properly - but I doubt this would actually happen.

I also think the two advisors Ruairí had on that documentary earlier this year could be culled, saving tens of thousands of euros....all they seemed to do was write his propaga....i mean speeches, and smoke fags.

They could also cut their losses with project maths inservices....I think its time to face up to the fact that maths teachers continue to teach this subject as they always did...by trying to predict the questions that will come up in the exam which is what students and parents want - and while news reports always show students measuring goalposts and working in [well-behaved!] groups, I don't think it continues like that when the cameras are gone!

Also, optional Leaving Cert Irish needs to be considered...or replace ordinary level with a cultural studies course thats not examined.

Also, seeing as we are self-evaluating ourselves now for free for the dept, we no longer need an inspectorate.

Liquidate the teaching council and put them and us out of our misery...use the stack of [our] cash that they have in the bank to hire some new teachers.

Shorter lunchtimes in schools on one or two days a week would reduce costs of supervision at lunchtimes.

Replace prefabs that are being rented with actual classrooms.

evolving_doors

solerina wrote: »

I think that as many people have said the Orals are the biggest waste of money (along with music and Home Ec practicals) if you want to supervise them you should be doing it during mid term/easter holidays so that only 2 payments are involved not 3.....that will make a decent start anyway.

Hmm I think you've missed the point of music and home ec...ive experienced alot of students with special needs who really shine when it comes to the practical element of music and home ec..I can't really envisage a situation where music would be a written exam only..maybe they could write about how they'd play their instrument!

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

how about taking a chunk of cash from those teachers earning 65k plus?I`m on my second FTC,teaching 22hrs a week yet last month i was paid a few euro shy of 2k. A more 'experienced' colleague showed me his payslip and I was unable to speak for the first five minutes of my next class.

TheDriver

Jaxx Damp Self-control wrote: »

how about taking a chunk of cash from those teachers earning 65k plus?I`m on my second FTC,teaching 22hrs a week yet last month i was paid a few euro shy of 2k. A more 'experienced' colleague showed me his payslip and I was unable to speak for the first five minutes of my next class.

because people earning over 65k are loaded............................ we all started on a payscale that was lot more than few euro shy of 2k. So are you telling me that your principal who has to work long hours and stay in a lot of the summer and fix all the problems should have his pay cut drastically?

Inspector Coptoor

Jaxx Damp Self-control wrote: »

how about taking a chunk of cash from those teachers earning 65k plus?I`m on my second FTC,teaching 22hrs a week yet last month i was paid a few euro shy of 2k. A more 'experienced' colleague showed me his payslip and I was unable to speak for the first five minutes of my next class.

That's an incredibly short sighted opinion.

Why cut off your nose despite your face?
Some day you will be that experienced teacher with a decent wage. Do you want to ****€ the bed now so you don't ever receive that wage?

That 2k a month, is that net? Surely has to be.

whiteandlight

solerina wrote: »

I think that as many people have said the Orals are the biggest waste of money (along with music and Home Ec practicals) if you want to supervise them you should be doing it during mid term/easter holidays so that only 2 payments are involved not 3.....that will make a decent start anyway.

Sorry definitely not cut the music practicals. It should have a proper graded performance element otherwise its not a proper music course. Unlike the orals as well many of the students need an accompanist (AKA the teacher) in the room with them for the exam. I have 17 pieces to practise this weekend My VP thought it would be funny to tell me he couldn't free me up. I nearly lost the plot.....

RealJohn

Probably wouldn't save an awful lot but they should get rid of the "coursework" for junior cert science and any other subject where they get marked for work done in school (there's one for home ec too I believe and CSPE I think?), at junior cert at least. Speaking from personal experience, both as a teacher and examiner, there is almost no value in them in practice because the fact is that the vast majority of the work is done by the teachers.
I've marked junior cert science for the last five years and every year, 99% of the coursework booklets from any one centre are almost exactly the same with all of the students saying the same thing in the same way and all of them getting between 100 and 130 marks out of 150. That, along with the 10% for the experiments (which in fairness, tends to show that some teachers do insist on the experiments being done properly at least) makes it almost impossible to fail the exam. What's the point in examining something if there's no chance of failing it? The only students who actually earn their grade are the ones who get As.

And before people start wading in saying "well maybe some teachers do all the work for the students but I certainly don't", maybe that's true in some cases but it's in a minority of cases and a small minority at that (speaking only about junior cert science, just so we're clear) and rather than address this issue, the chief examiner is practically complicit in this (even though he's rightly, very anti-cheating and anti-obvious help from the teacher) by setting harder practicals each year to the point that some of them are completely unsuitable for junior cert students.

Get rid of the coursework and you reduce the amount of marking needed and thereby reduce the number of teachers needed (as they will be able to mark far more exams) and the amount they have to be paid per script (as they will have considerably less to correct).

Do it with science, home ec and CSPE (I think) and it increases the integrity of the examination process and saves money at the same time.

I get the impression that the same thing is going on at leaving cert too (which is more worrying) so there's probably more to be saved there too.

Edit - I would be against getting rid of actual practical exams though or examining projects where the actual results are examined like in woodwork etc. There is value in that (and money aside, I'd like to see something similar come in for science). It's just the write ups that the students get far too much help with that are valueless in most cases.

Inspector Coptoor

RealJohn - you're right about JC Science but given the new JC coming in, it's gonna be a non issue soon

solerina

Armelodie wrote: »

Hmm I think you've missed the point of music and home ec...ive experienced alot of students with special needs who really shine when it comes to the practical element of music and home ec..I can't really envisage a situation where music would be a written exam only..maybe they could write about how they'd play their instrument!

You totally missed my point....I didnt say get rid of the practicals...I said that along with the orals they should be done during the mid term break or the easter holidays to cut out some of the expense associated with them !!!

whiteandlight

solerina wrote: »

You totally missed my point....I didnt say get rid of the practicals...I said that along with the orals they should be done during the mid term break or the easter holidays to cut out some of the expense associated with them !!!

The issue with having the music practicals during the break is that I as a music teacher would have to come (unpaid) because I accompany my students in the exam itself. It's not a comfort/supervision thing-I actually play for them

spurious

There is no need to do away with the practicals which are an essential part of many subjects.
The process could be much more streamlined though, group schools locally in maybe groups of 6 or so, teacher from school A visits school B, teacher from B visits C etc. No need for high travel expenses, or any teacher being out of their school for more than a couple of days.

whiteandlight

I'm gonna throw it out there though I may be eaten. I cannot honestly see where the savings can realistically be made in education without anihilating our terms and conditions except by a pay cut.

And I would be prepared to take a (small) pay cut to keep them intact. The Proposed S and S scheme in particular would have had far more impact on my wages (as a non permanent employee) in the long run than a percentage paycut.

RealJohn

Yeah, I'd prefer a small pay cut across the entire public sector rather than sacrifice conditions. It's probably unrealistic to expect there to be no cuts so if they're cutting our pay (which they were anyway), I'd rather that they were honest about it at least and call a spade a spade.

joebloggs32

RealJohn wrote: »

Yeah, I'd prefer a small pay cut across the entire public sector rather than sacrifice conditions. It's probably unrealistic to expect there to be no cuts so if they're cutting our pay (which they were anyway), I'd rather that they were honest about it at least and call a spade a spade.

Me too. If the proposed changes to conditions come true we will suffer more in the long run.

Another small saving could be payroll slips. Surely they could email them and save on printing and postage.

whiteandlight

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Me too. If the proposed changes to conditions come true we will suffer more in the long run.

Another small saving could be payroll slips. Surely they could email them and save on printing and postage.

Definitely, that's an easy one. As well as man power organising the printing/postage

Fizzical

Not only would putting orals and practicals into the Easter or summer holidays save money, it would save an enormous amount of disruption in schools.

Postponing the new Junior Cert and the Literacy and Numeracy drive would save money. Neither are needed at all.

Fizzical

Musicmental85 wrote: »

The issue with having the music practicals during the break is that I as a music teacher would have to come (unpaid) because I accompany my students in the exam itself. It's not a comfort/supervision thing-I actually play for them

I find this strange - maybe I shouldn't.

If students need an accompanist, surely there is an accommodation for such?

How come the accompanist is expected to do it for free? Or is it a situation that has grown up because teachers offered their services during school hours?

Do students need to be accompanied or does it just help them if they are?

whiteandlight

Short of paying someone to do it, it is needed. the alternative is students using backing tracks which are not always available, not always in the right key and sometimes very difficult to follow. For singers in particular an accompanist really is necessary

maynooth_rules

Im a secondary school teacher so I am discussing something I dont have a great knowledge on here, but do primary school teachers who teach the younger groups finish teaching at 12/1? If so then why don't they be sent in to do team teaching in with an older age group that are in school until 3. Not money saving but certainly a better use of some primary school teachers hours

dambarude

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Im a secondary school teacher so I am discussing something I dont have a great knowledge on here, but do primary school teachers who teach the younger groups finish teaching at 12/1? If so then why don't they be sent in to do team teaching in with an older age group that are in school until 3. Not money saving but certainly a better use of some primary school teachers hours

They finish one hour earlier than the rest of the staff but must stay on the premises and do preparation (of which there is a lot for infant classes). There is an INTO directive which dictates that they cannot/ should not be deployed to other duties within this time. It's not much different to free periods that a secondary teacher might have - should they be obliged to take a resource class at this time?

In practice some infant teachers do undertake duties not directly related to their class at this time.

Miss Lockhart

dambarude wrote: »

They finish one hour earlier than the rest of the staff but must stay on the premises and do preparation (of which there is a lot for infant classes). There is an INTO which dictates that they cannot/ should not be deployed to other duties within this time. It's not much different to free periods that a secondary teacher might have - should they be obliged to take a resource class at this time?

In practice some infant teachers do undertake duties not directly related to their class at this time.

Do primary teachers have a set number of contracted teaching hours?

I don't necessarily agree with infant teachers being asked to do extra when their class is finished, but you are not comparing like with like. Second level teachers have a set number of hours for which they are contracted and they can be, and are, given other classes to make up those hours if for some reason their own groups are out.

Boober Fraggle

I think making suggestions for savings by changing working conditions for teachers outside your own sphere of knowledge is going to get people's backs up.

I'm sure there are many good reasons why infants teachers get that time concession for preparation.

dambarude

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Do primary teachers have a set number of contracted teaching hours?

I don't necessarily agree with infant teachers being asked to do extra when their class is finished, but you are not comparing like with like. Second level teachers have a set number of hours for which they are contracted and they can be, and are, given other classes to make up those hours if for some reason their own groups are out.

An infant teacher's contracted hours are the same as that of a teacher from first class up, i.e. 25 hours. Part of an infant teacher's contract hours is the 'infant hour'. The infant hour is spent preparing resources for infant classes, which would typically outnumber the resources required of a more senior class. That is the precedent.

I realise it's not comparing like with like.

mick kk

It would be on a par with saying secondary teachers shoulde take students during their "free"classes - I don't think imposing that idea on primary school teachers is a runner in fairness - those primary teachers have work to do during that time and cannot leave the school premises - in fairness to them, I don't think I would be able for anything after a morning with 4 year olds!

Did Ruairí and his two helpers fly a fag earlier in the year about children starting school when they are 5 or 6 or did I imagine this?


A definite way the SEC could save money is by having smaller centres for those that need assistance rather than having one in a room. Its a shocking waste of money - you could easily put 4 or 5 students in a large room who need assistance such as reader [obviously depends on how much help a student would require] rather than having 1 adult per student - in my experience, some of these students are finished their exam within a very short period of time. However, it would meen less work for those that do this work and that often tends to be new teachers.

I had to laugh last year at the examiner conferences - no free cup of tea or coffee during the break....the miserable f....