NBA Playoffs 2012/13

Dublin Red Devil

Come on Pacers.

Nuri Sahin

Turnover \o/

Dublin Red Devil

Poor Paul George will be feeling like sh1t if that pass to the bench cost them this game

Dublin Red Devil

Paul George. You fcking Legend. What a shot

Nuri Sahin

Oh my holy hell. Big time 3 to tie from George. ****ing Pacers better cover the spread at least here, I've seen Heat blowout too many teams in OT in the past not to be worried

Dublin Red Devil

OT

Nuri Sahin

Very odd decision to take out Hibbert there.................

Professional Griefer

boooooooo

Nuri Sahin

Wow! Wade fouls out. Pacers ahead by 1 with 2 seconds left.

Nuri Sahin

Holy crap LeBron FTW! :pac:

Dublin Red Devil

Unbelievable

Carcharodon

Should of made LeBron make the jumper, got too tight on him, easy to say this from my house I know.

NufcNavan

Where was the big man to slide over in the paint?


Gutted.

ButtersSuki

Pacers have to be gutted after that loss. To be still in the game and leading for large parts after all the turnovers and then having seemingly won the game in OT only for Vogel to take Hibbert out of the game on the biggest 2 possessions of it. Daft. His Press Conference afterwards was all about the threat of leaving Bosh open. Seriously? Make Bosh beat you, not LeBron.

Will have to see how they react. Miami have form in playing poorly Game 1 and blowing out the opposition in Game 2, but Pacers have shown they have a template to beat the Heat and the front line size is clarly causing the Heat major problems. Can't see the Birdman having another decent game like that so the pressure will be on.

padraig_f

Jesus H. Christ. Indiana's whole success in the game was having Hibbert under the rim and forcing the Heat to take jump-shots. Then for the biggest two possessions of the game, he takes him out and gives Lebron two layups. What the **** was he thinking?

Coached a great game and then totally blew it.

Paully D

I know it's only game one, but that sort of defeat is exactly the type of defeat that can just completely deflate the whole team.

Absolutely crazy not to have Hibbert on the court for that last play. Once, fair enough, you can put it down to a mistake but Vogel didn't even learn from that on the second try after George nailed those three FT's. It was plain stupidity.

padraig_f

I posted a pic from game 6 of the Knicks series where Carmelo lost Paul George and got to the rim, only to be rejected by Hibbert.

Similar thing happened last night...

ButtersSuki

You couldn't make it up......

From NBA.com:

MIAMI – Indiana Pacers coach Frank Vogel has called Roy Hibbert “the best rim protector in the game.” That same Vogel took that same Hibbert off the floor on two critical defensive possessions late in overtime of Game 1 of the Eastern Conference finals on Wednesday.

The result? Two LeBron James layups and a 103-102 Miami Heat victory in overtime. Commence the torching of Vogel.

Vogel is very good at his job, the architect of the No. 1 defense in the league. But on more than one occasion in these playoffs, he has been caught over-coaching. This isn’t the first time he’s sat Hibbert on a late-game defensive possession, but it’s the time that decision came back to really bite him in the rear end.

Indiana was in position to steal Game 1 and home-court advantage in the series. Paul George got them to overtime with a 32-foot bomb at the end of regulation and, after James’ first Hibbert-less layup, got them a one-point lead with three clutch free throws with 2.2 seconds on the clock in OT.

After the Heat called timeout, Hibbert was on the floor.
I repeat, Hibbert was on the floor. And it was just one possession earlier when James beat George Hill off the dribble and got a layup because Hibbert wasn’t on the floor.

But Vogel looked at Miami’s lineup and called his own timeout, for the sole purpose of replacing Hibbert with Tyler Hansbrough. Over-coaching 101.
“That’s the dilemma they present when they have Chris Bosh at the five spot and his ability to space the floor,” Vogel said afterward. “We put a switching lineup in with the intent to switch, keep everything in front of us, and try to go into or force a challenged jump shot.”

Vogel’s fear was that, if Hibbert stuck by the basket to protect the rim, Bosh could free up a teammate with a screen or knock down an open jump shot.

The Pacers did switch as the Heat set multiple screens on the inbounds play. But when James caught the ball at the top of the key, George closed out a little too hard. The Heat had the floor spaced well, so when James blew by George, there was no one in position to help or protect the rim. James laid the ball in with his left hand and the buzzer sounded.
Game over. Opportunity lost.

“Obviously, with the way it worked out, it would have been better to have Roy in the game,” Vogel said. “But you don’t know. If that happens, maybe Bosh is making a jump shot and we’re all talking about that.”

And maybe if Hibbert was on the floor and James just scored over him, we’re talking about the Heat’s offensive mentality. After attempting 11 mid-range shots in the first quarter (and only five from the restricted area), they attempted just 13 mid-range shots (and 31 from the restricted area) over the remaining 41 minutes.

They didn’t let Hibbert’s presence keep them away from the rim. They smartly attacked the Pacers’ defense both from the middle and from the baseline, drew Hibbert’s attention, and dumped the ball off to cutters for layups and dunks.

“We’re an attacking team,” Heat coach Erik Spoelstra said. “It takes a great commitment and effort to be able to do it together, to get our attack. So you play a very good defensive team like this, you might not necessarily get it on the first option of your attack. And you have to have the poise and patience to work your offense, get to the proper spacing, move bodies, and have those opportunities in the paint.”
(Someone send that quote to the New York Knicks.)

“The first quarter, it was more of taking the first available look,” Spoelstra continued. “And a lot of times, it was that pull-up or long jumper.”
After averaging just 30.7 points in the paint in three regular season meetings against the Pacers, the Heat had almost twice that (60) on Wednesday. And all of their biggest buckets of the night came at the rim, including a Dwyane Wade layup over Hibbert in the final minute of regulation and a Bosh put-back over Hibbert in the final minute of OT. So it’s not as if Hibbert was stopping everything.

But you have a much better chance of protecting the rim with Hibbert on the floor than with him on the bench. In his 12 minutes off the floor in Game 1, the Heat were 9-for-12 in the restricted area and just 1-for-9 elsewhere. And if the 7-foot-2 guy is in the game and protecting the rim on that final possession, you can certainly live with the elsewhere.

Hibbert was obviously disappointed afterward, but he had his coach’s back.
“I could see why Coach wanted to take me out,” he said. “With 2.2 seconds left on the clock, they can throw it to Bosh and I’m over-committing in the paint and he can hit a jump shot. My mentality is always to protect the rim. I wish I was in there, but I have complete faith in Coach’s decisions.”
If the situation comes up again, the decision might be different.
“I would say we’ll probably have him in the next time,” Vogel said.
The Heat have now won 46 of their last 49 games. Opportunities to beat them do not come often. Vogel can only hope that there is a next time.

Carcharodon

That last play is really being over thought, got to love the media and "experts". Not many players are able to drive to the rim with 2 seconds left from where he was, george overplayed him if anyone should get the blame.

BQQ

Carcharodon wrote: »

That last play is really being over thought, got to love the media and "experts". Not many players are able to drive to the rim with 2 seconds left from where he was, george overplayed him if anyone should get the blame.

+1

Vogel wanted to give the Heat a contested jumper rather than an open jumper, which Bosh would have had if Hibbert had been in the game.

Paul George sold himself and Lebron punished him.
Nothing wrong with the defensive play - just executed badly.

Doesn't really matter anyway, Lebron was gonna knock it down regardless. :cool:

recyclebin

Avoided the result all day and only got to watch the Pacers game now. What a game! I don't think either team lead by more than 5. I thought George was going to do a Reggie and win the game with that amazing 3 and then the 3 free throws. It was just so like what Reggie would have done I thought we had gone back to the 90's. My heart was pounding so hard in OT. It was so tense and was gutted when Le Bron stole it in the last 2.2s.

It's already been mentioned but the decision to bench Hibbert really was mind boggling.

Roll on game 2. Even if Pacers win it I can't see them going on a run of 3 wins to maintain home court advantage. Can see it going 2-2. I would settle for that at this moment in time.

It's probably a year too early for this Pacers team as they are so young and they should have Granger back next season.

Whether it happens this year or next I will still be screaming at the TV rooting for the Pacers!

Carcharodon

padraig_f wrote: »

I posted a pic from game 6 of the Knicks series where Carmelo lost Paul George and got to the rim, only to be rejected by Hibbert.

Similar thing happened last night...

Hilbert is a great shot blocker and shot changer but to insinuate that he would of blocked LeBron is really presumptuous. You do realize that Carmelo was going for a dunk and James had a lay up but that's besides the point, a million different things could of happened.

padraig_f

Carcharodon wrote: »

That last play is really being over thought, got to love the media and "experts". Not many players are able to drive to the rim with 2 seconds left from where he was, george overplayed him if anyone should get the blame.

I'm not sure if I'm one of the experts in quotation-marks, but it's not that we think we're experts, we're not. It's the opposite, it's that this is pretty basic stuff, and it's just amazing that a coach in the ECF made such a mess of it.

Paul George may have made a slight mistake, but it pales into insignificance compared to the coaching mistake. If a player makes a slight positional mis-step, and it leads to an open layup, it's the whole defensive play-design that's wrong, not the player's mis-step.

Vogel said after the game:

“Obviously, with the way it worked out, it would have been better to have Roy in the game, but you don’t know. If that happens, maybe Bosh is making a jump shot and we’re all talking about that.”

I'm just looking at Chris Bosh's shooting stats there, away from the rim, he's well below 50%. If you're so concerned about giving up a <50% jump-shot, you allow an open layup, your priorities are all wrong.

padraig_f

Carcharodon wrote: »

Hilbert is a great shot blocker and shot changer but to insinuate that he would of blocked LeBron is really presumptuous. You do realize that Carmelo was going for a dunk and James had a lay up but that's besides the point, a million different things could of happened.

Wasn't saying the same thing was going to happen. If Hibbert is near the rim, the most likely thing is that Lebron doesn't even attempt a layup, and takes some kind of jump-shot instead. Which means about a <50% shot vs. the virtual 100% layup he did get = huge win for the defense.

Carcharodon

padraig_f wrote: »

I'm not sure if I'm one of the experts in quotation-marks, but it's not that we think we're experts, we're not. It's the opposite, it's that this is pretty basic stuff, and it's just amazing that a coach in the ECF made such a mess of it.

Paul George may have made a slight mistake, but it pales into insignificance compared to the coaching mistake. If a player makes a slight positional mis-step, and it leads to an open layup, it's the whole defensive play-design that's wrong, not the player's mis-step.

Vogel said after the game:



I'm just looking at Chris Bosh's shooting stats there, away from the rim, he's well below 50%. If you're so concerned about giving up a <50% jump-shot, you allow an open layup, your priorities are all wrong.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. Hindsight is 50/50 and maybe Hibbert would of stopped the layup, a total what if...as no one knows what way the play would of broke down. In my opinion George made a really big mistake, he doesn't over play LeBron and LeBron is then unable to spin for layup and forced to take jump shot which would equal a successful defensive sequence as every Miami player would of had a contested jump shot.
Give credit to LeBron too for a great execution.
The sooner the Pacers can get back on the floor the better, it's only game 1 in Miami, plenty of time.

recyclebin

I would have taken the chance with Hibbert for the last play. The ball was always going to go to Le Bron and he had a choice of either attacking the ring or make a long shot.

The worst thing that could have happened was that Hibbert would foul James and put the pressure on him to make both free throws. Either that or Le Bron would have had to make a looping shot over Hibbert.

Paully D

Bookies give Pacers one less point tonight, making Miami 7.5 point favourites.

padraig_f

Carcharodon wrote: »

I think we will have to agree to disagree. Hindsight is 50/50 and maybe Hibbert would of stopped the layup, a total what if...as no one knows what way the play would of broke down. In my opinion George made a really big mistake, he doesn't over play LeBron and LeBron is then unable to spin for layup and forced to take jump shot which would equal a successful defensive sequence as every Miami player would of had a contested jump shot.
Give credit to LeBron too for a great execution.
The sooner the Pacers can get back on the floor the better, it's only game 1 in Miami, plenty of time.

I'm not trying to be results-oriented, I agree there's a whole range of things that could've happened, but to me, Hibbert being in the game makes the Heat much more likely to take a jump-shot, which is really your primary goal as a defense. You can't stop everything, your main goal is to force the team to take the kind of shot you want them to take. If you allow an open shot at the rim (and even if it's the result of a mistake), to me it's the opposite of everything you're trying to achieve as a defense. Particulary with Lebron, probably the thing he does best is finish at the rim, you want to avoid giving him that shot at all costs.

On the Paul George mistake, after the game he said:

"It was different. I'm used to being aggressive. That's the reason why I was aggressive. I'm used to having Roy back there. But, again, me being in that situation, I've got to know who's on the floor with me and know what we want from LeBron."

You can call it a mistake from Paul George, but in the heat of the moment, players play a lot on instinct, developed through practice and familiarity with their team-mates. There's a good reason for this, it's much quicker than rationally thinking things out. A coach should realise this, and not take players out of their comfort zone. Paul George plays mostly with Hibbert in there, a lot of his defensive instincts are based on Hibbert being behind him. So I think the play-design contributed to the mistake.


I'm ripping on Vogel a lot for these mistakes, but in general I think he's done a good job, sets his team up well, and they're well-coached. I think he's overthought this situation, trying to contest the jumper, and missed the wood for the trees a bit.

leggo

Interesting take on Hibbert-gate, from Grantland's most recent NBA Shootaround (love these btw):

Frank Vogel is going to become the Game 1 scapegoat for his decision to leave out Roy Hibbert — the man he designed his top-ranked defense around — on the final possession, which resulted in LeBron James's game-winning layup. But before you lay the blame at Vogel’s feet, it’s important to remember, when it comes to basketball strategy, things aren’t always as straightforward as they seem. Unlucky **** just happens, and a huge gray area exists between player error and coaching incompetence.

It’s easy to view James’s layup on a superficial level and come to the conclusion that Hibbert’s absence cost Indiana what would have been a crucial road win. After all, James got to the hoop and the Pacers' rim protector was out of the game because of the coach, therefore Vogel screwed up, right? That actually couldn’t be further from the truth.

Time, score, and situation dictate so much of the strategy during the late moments of basketball games. With 2.2 seconds on the clock and Miami inbounding on the side, Hibbert protecting the rim was virtually useless. Nearly every time in that situation, the offense’s play will call for some type of quick catch-and-shoot. The defense will be denying the opportunity for a drive, and with the time left on the clock any pass (other than the initial one from the inbounder) is a dicey proposition.

Any good coach, which Vogel is, is going to realize that the opposing team is very likely to run several off-the-ball screening combinations before the ball is even inbounded. The best way to counter that, from a defensive perspective, is to switch everything, because switching defenses are typically only bested by teams isolating against mismatches or slipping their screens. There wasn’t enough time for Miami to do the former, and the latter can be stopped with a potent combination of execution and communication.

This is why Vogel went with a lineup of his five most “switchable” players, or at least the five who had seen game action and weren’t the 5-foot-10 D.J. Augustin. Vogel’s decision to leave out Hibbert gave his team a chance to win — the primary goal of any coach. (The choice to leave Hibbert out with a minute left in OT is a totally different story when you remember that whole time-score-situation thing.) The way to judge a coach (or anything, really) is to evaluate the process, not the result.

Dublin Red Devil

What a finish to the 3rd