The sex myth

Three Seasons

Czarcasm wrote: »

To quote Helen Lewis, in her book review of "The Sex Myth" in The New Statesman-




http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2012/04/review-sex-myth-brooke-magnanti


And check out Ms. Magnati's reply to an e-mail sent to her by another book reviewer here-

http://quietgirlriot.wordpress.com/2012/05/13/bad-science-a-review-of-the-sex-myth-by-brooke-magnanti/


Her "buy into my bullshìt, or go fcuk yourself" attitude to a critique of her work doesn't exactly bode well for her reputation as a "scientist" now, does it?


Scientist my àrse! :pac:

She's highly accomplished in numerous disciplines. What reason do you have to doubt her scientific competence other than her choice of swear words?

sbsquarepants

Three Seasons wrote: »

I've certainly had my ass and balls groped on countless occasions.

That's not including the number of times women have reversed their ass into my crotch to seduce me or glanced the back of their hand off my crotch.

Go on you irresistible divil you!:D

In my own personal experience women can be very touchy feely especially after a few drinks or when in a group. Take hen parties, i've been "assaulted" countless times by them, from just something like having my ass pinched to being seriously groped and stripped. I'd say practically every man above 20 or so has been at some stage. It is very much a double standard. If the genders were reversed you could easily be talking serious criminal charges.
But i suppose it's a lot less intimidating than the reverse ie a goup of drunken men all pawing at some girl. But that being said, it very much weakens the case of those who carry on like an slap on the ass is every bit as serious as a gang rape.

tritium

Czarcasm wrote: »

It's like saying a doctor doesn't know anything about a particular illness when they would have far more experience and knowledge about the illness than the person who suffers from it. The person who suffers from it only knows what it's like for them, the doctor will have seen far more patients present with the illness and have a much wider background knowledge of the illness.

that's a fairly poor analogy though- a doctor will spend years in dedicated study of their particular field as a scientific discipline, applying established analytical standards of proof. That's very different to what we see in this context. A doctor will also use the information provided by their patients to derive a diagnosis and treatment- again very different to the scenario here, where the 'patient' is often selectively ignored or dismissed.

There's too many links I could put here about her agenda, but let me at least present to you an article from thejournal.ie in which she puts forward her agenda-

http://www.thejournal.ie/former-belle-de-jour-concerned-about-irish-sex-workers-legislation-777305-Feb2013/

I'm unclear what this is meant to show? Basically she says that sex workers should have an input into hearings that will directly impact them. What's the issue? She actually specifically says that it would be preferable to get the view of Irish sex workers rather than her own non-local perspective. I don't really see much of an agenda at work here tbh. I dunno, I'm no expert on the woman so maybe you can give a better link...,

Quite ironic that you should put it that way when Ms. Magnati's career not only depends on people buying into her point of view, but also buying her books that ironically enough are based on bad science, personal opinion, and shìtty statistics while she tries to pass herself off nowadays as a scientist.

As I understand it she has a msc in epidemiology and a phd in forensic science. In those circumstances I think she's entitled to describe herself as a scientist!

Again im not a reader of her work but given the reputation she seems to have garnered with her initial literary work I suspect she could write about poo on a stick for a couple of books and still sell a healthy number of copies.

smash

sbsquarepants wrote: »

But that being said, it very much weakens the case of those who carry on like an slap on the ass is every bit as serious as a gang rape.

I don't condone this kind of activity but those who consider it a sexual assault need their head checked to be honest. It's just someone acting the dick.

And hen parties... yea, a million times worse than a group of lads!

trickymicky

antodeco wrote: »

That an empty packet of crisps and a hair bobbin is perfect contraception

So when is she due ???:)

Lingua Franca

smash wrote: »

I don't condone this kind of activity but those who consider it a sexual assault need their head checked to be honest. It's just someone acting the dick.

From the same guy who objected to the term rape culture, ladies and gentlemen! :rolleyes:

smash

Lingua Franca wrote: »

From the same guy who objected to the term rape culture, ladies and gentlemen! :rolleyes:

What's your point here?

You think a pinch on the ass is 'rape culture'?

Lingua Franca

I think trivialising sexual assault is rape culture.

Exactly what can be done to my body against my will before you'd consider it sexual assault?

Czarcasm

Three Seasons wrote: »

She's highly accomplished in numerous disciplines. What reason do you have to doubt her scientific competence other than her choice of swear words?

The fact that most of her blog (which I've followed for a number of years, and read her books, and watched her interviews), is mostly based around promoting herself and her "sex sells" stories rather than any peer reviewed papers published in any scientific journals. She's peddling myth and personal opinion as if it were scientific fact, mixed in with a few salacious details of her previous sexual history, mixed in with pure myth and fantasy.

She no doubt is highly educated, but a good education doesn't correlate with being a good scientist. There are god botherers who call themselves scientists too, and would be far more qualified than Ms. Magnati. Does that mean we should take their word over Ms. Magnati? Of course not, not without a healthy dose of scepticism, which is why you have to delve further into the background of any research, do your own research so to speak before you form an opinion one way or the other, not just take the first opinion that comes to hand because it agrees with yours.

Three Seasons

Czarcasm wrote: »

The fact that most of her blog (which I've followed for a number of years, and read her books, and watched her interviews), is mostly based around promoting herself and her "sex sells" stories rather than any peer reviewed papers published in any scientific journals. She's peddling myth and personal opinion as if it were scientific fact, mixed in with a few salacious details of her previous sexual history, mixed in with pure myth and fantasy.

She no doubt is highly educated, but a good education doesn't correlate with being a good scientist. There are god botherers who call themselves scientists too, and would be far more qualified than Ms. Magnati. Does that mean we should take their word over Ms. Magnati? Of course not, not without a healthy dose of scepticism, which is why you have to delve further into the background of any research, do your own research so to speak before you form an opinion one way or the other, not just take the first opinion that comes to hand because it agrees with yours.

Who says I agree with everything she says???

Henlars67

Rosy Posy wrote: »

This attitude makes my blood boil. It is precisely this line of thinking that creates a rape culture in our society that manifests in teenage rapists posting photos of their crimes on Facebook, and rape victims taking their own lives because of the stigma attached to them.

How about this for a sex myth- the myth of the rapist hiding down an alley with a knife. Most rapists are known to their victims. Sexual assault does not have to be violent. Having sex with someone who is unconcious or too drunk to give consent is rape. Just because someone has slept with you before or has consented at an earlier time does not give you carte blanche to have sex with them again without obtaining their consent.

The reason that rape and sexual assault is so shockingly underreported is because of the societal attitude that casts aspersions on the victim, as well as the social stigma that comes attached, which filters down through the system to result in the abysmally low conviction rate for rapists.

Like another poster here, I find the one in four statistic low. I would have put it closer to three in four, especially if you take war zones into account. What makes you so sure of yourself as to presume to question the statistic? Most rape survivors don't advertise the fact. Many will only share their story with a handful of trusted confidants. Many more will tell no one. Due in part to having to come up against the kind of attitude displayed by you. Fwiw, I don't think you are a rapist, misogynist or monster, merely a product of our society. I hope that you can be open enough to do a little research in this area, adjust your attitude, then try to change someone else's.

what attitude? said that I find it absurdly high, if it's accurate then it's absolutely shocking, that is why I question it.

I didn't state it as a fact.

cheers for the reply though.

It's much better than any reply I've gotten when I previously asked it.

--Kaiser--

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I think trivialising sexual assault is rape culture.

Exactly what can be done to my body against my will before you'd consider it sexual assault?

You are the one trivialising sexual assault by saying that a pinch in the ass qualifies. I think it's an insult to woman who have been sexually assaulted.

I've been groped, had my ass pinched and slapped by women, I've had all the buttons ripped off my shirt by a hen party. Would you say that hen nights are part of a rape culture? Or that they are just drunk, rowdy women being idiots?

IM0

saying 1 in 4 means precisely fuck all if you dont say where the sample data was taken. for example, taking it during a war somewhere in a third world country = very high number no doubt, taking your data in the middle of dublin will probably show something else, and like wise somewhere in India probably different again.

stats like this are pretty much useless, and are only collected to further an ajenda :rolleyes:

the ajenda being if it can be 'shown' by stats that sexual assault is so high, then the people making the stats [the organisations which have a part to play in 'fixing' the 'victims'] use this to lobby for more funding to keep themselves in a job and getting funding. apply the same logic to most chariatible 'NGO's too.

IM0

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I think trivialising sexual assault is rape culture.

Exactly what can be done to my body against my will before you'd consider it sexual assault?

nothing after you say no, simple.

tritium

Rosy Posy wrote: »

This attitude makes my blood boil. It is precisely this line of thinking that creates a rape culture in our society that manifests in teenage rapists posting photos of their crimes on Facebook, and rape victims taking their own lives because of the stigma attached to them.

How about this for a sex myth- the myth of the rapist hiding down an alley with a knife. Most rapists are known to their victims. Sexual assault does not have to be violent. Having sex with someone who is unconcious or too drunk to give consent is rape. Just because someone has slept with you before or has consented at an earlier time does not give you carte blanche to have sex with them again without obtaining their consent.

The reason that rape and sexual assault is so shockingly underreported is because of the societal attitude that casts aspersions on the victim, as well as the social stigma that comes attached, which filters down through the system to result in the abysmally low conviction rate for rapists.

Like another poster here, I find the one in four statistic low. I would have put it closer to three in four, especially if you take war zones into account. What makes you so sure of yourself as to presume to question the statistic? Most rape survivors don't advertise the fact. Many will only share their story with a handful of trusted confidants. Many more will tell no one. Due in part to having to come up against the kind of attitude displayed by you. Fwiw, I don't think you are a rapist, misogynist or monster, merely a product of our society. I hope that you can be open enough to do a little research in this area, adjust your attitude, then try to change someone else's.

Wow, where to start. Maybe by pointing out the irony of attacking a poster with a stream of unsubstantiated assertions and then suggesting they do some research. Tell us, why do you think your three in four assertion has any more credibility then the less than one in four the poster implied?

I don't mean this as a dig at you, but the biggest problem in debating issues like this is everyone want their opinion to be fact, and shouts down any dissent. The reality is there are complex reasons for the type of society we have today, and to simplistically throw out terms like rape culture goes nowhere to understanding them!

Henlars67

I was in a pub once where a hen party had scorecards and would hold up a rating for each man who walked passed their table, which was every man in the pub at some stage as they were next the toilets.

Most men got groped or had their arse slapped.

I suppose most people would class it as innocent fun but imagine it was a group of lads on a stag night doing the same to every woman who passed by.

Lingua Franca

Henlars67 wrote: »

sexually assaulted

Lingua Franca wrote: »

sexually assaulted

Lingua Franca wrote: »

groped on the street and in crowds, to give you the 'softest' examples

Lingua Franca wrote: »

everything from unwelcome gropings to rape.

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I was groped at the age of 14 by two grown men in a crowd at a concert. I was groped on the stree at the age of 30 by a teenager who ran up behind me and assaulted me.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

slap on the ass

smash wrote: »

a pinch on the ass is 'rape culture'?

I'd say the guys trying to reduce sexual assault down to a pinch on the ass are trivialising rape culture.

And a pinch on the ass does indeed qualify, no one has any business laying their hands on another's body in a sexual manner without their consent.

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

You are the one trivialising sexual assault by saying that a pinch in the ass qualifies. I think it's an insult to woman who have been sexually assaulted.

I've already said that I've been sexually assaulted several times. Am I insulting myself? Frankly, it doesn't matter what you think.

I've been groped, had my ass pinched and slapped by women, I've had all the buttons ripped off my shirt by a hen party. Would you say that hen nights are part of a rape culture?

That kind of behaviour is, yes. I'm as disgusted by that kind of behaviour from women as from men.

Or that they are just drunk, rowdy women being idiots?

If a bunch of men grope me, pinch and slap my bum and rip the buttons off my clothes against my will and without my consent, are they just drunk rowdy men being idiots?

I guess that answers my earlier question of what should be allowed to be done to me before it's considered sexual assault. Thankfully, the law takes my view and not yours.

Lingua Franca

IM0 wrote: »

nothing after you say no, simple.

But everything that happens before I say no is fair game?

smash

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

You are the one trivialising sexual assault by saying that a pinch in the ass qualifies. I think it's an insult to woman who have been sexually assaulted.

Couldn't have put it any better than this.

Lingua Franca

Indeed, I bet you couldn't.

IM0

Lingua Franca wrote: »

But everything that happens before I say no is fair game?

well by definition, and adding a pinch of troll

smash

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Indeed, I bet you couldn't.

Because it makes perfect sense. You are aligning a pinch on the arse with actual rape.

IM0

smash wrote: »

Because it makes perfect sense. You are aligning a pinch on the arse with actual rape.

which is in.fuckin.credible and actually disgusting

Lingua Franca

smash wrote: »

Because it makes perfect sense. You are aligning a pinch on the arse with actual rape.

No, I'm very clearly aligning sexual assault with sexual assault. You're reducing sexual assault down to 'a pinch on the arse'.

smash

Lingua Franca wrote: »

No, I'm very clearly aligning sexual assault with sexual assault. You're reducing sexual assault down to 'a pinch on the arse'.

Tell a rape victim that you got sexually assaulted and then qualify it with "A guy slapped my ass" and see how much sympathy you get. Actually, say it to anyone at all and see how much sympathy you get... :rolleyes:

Czarcasm

Three Seasons wrote: »

Who says I agree with everything she says???

I never said you did?

You asked-

Three Seasons wrote: »

She's highly accomplished in numerous disciplines. What reason do you have to doubt her scientific competence other than her choice of swear words?

I was merely answering your question.

Lingua Franca

smash wrote: »

Tell a rape victim that you got sexually assaulted and then qualify it with "A guy slapped my ass" and see how much sympathy you get. Actually, say it to anyone at all and see how much sympathy you get... :rolleyes:

I am a rape victim. And I'm sick to death of men telling me what violations of my bodily integrity I should be putting up with.

sbsquarepants

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I'd say the guys trying to reduce sexual assault down to a pinch on the ass are trivialising rape culture.

And a pinch on the ass does indeed qualify, no one has any business laying their hands on another's body in a sexual manner without their consent.

Shít. I came to work quite happy go lucky this morning, but that was before i realised i'd been the victim of repeated sexual assaults over the last 2 decades.

There is a very definite distinction between rowdy behaviour and sexual assault - Stevie Wonder can see that. Most people can distinguish between the two and don't overstep the mark, some sickos unfortunately do. But to compare a cheeky pinch on the bum with dragging some poor girl down a lane is patently ridiculous and, as has been noted already, is insulting to those unfortunate enough to have suffered an actual assault

flutterflye

What is sexual assault though?
I'm not talking about the obvious, more that line where it may or may not be.
If I was out and a guy started feeling me up and slapping my ass etc... I would consider that just some drunk gobsh1te acting like a d1ck, and I'd just move away from him.
But if he did the exact same thing to another girl, she may feel that to be sexual assault.
Does your subjective perspective make it sexual assault?
Same for harassment in the workplace etc...

Oh and I know far too many girls who have been raped, so I fully believe that statistic of 1 in 4, if not more.

smash

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I am a rape victim. And I'm sick to death of men telling me what violations of my bodily integrity I should be putting up with.

I don't believe anyone has told you what to put up with. I also think your experience of being raped has skewed your views of what most would consider trivial things such as a slap on the ass, as one does not lead to the other. Then again, I might as well talk to a wall because I'm a man and clearly you've discounted our views.

Anyway, a fun thread derailed and now getting heated so I'm out.

Three Seasons

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I am a rape victim. And I'm sick to death of men telling me what violations of my bodily integrity I should be putting up with.

Who has said you should put up with a slap on the ass? The simple point being made is its not even anywhere close to rape to put it mildly.

wandatowell

WTF is it about men who think they can just go and slap a womens ass??? I've commented on this before and it pisses me off.

If some guy slapped the future Mrs. Towells ass I'd have ZERO issue pulling him up on his behaviour.

sbsquarepants

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I am a rape victim. And I'm sick to death of men telling me what violations of my bodily integrity I should be putting up with.

I'm really sorry to hear that. It's completely understandable so why you wouldn't see the funny side of a pinch on the bum or so on. People who haven't been in your position might see it differently though.

Lingua Franca

Three Seasons wrote: »

Who has said you should put up with a slap on the ass? The simple point being made is its not even anywhere close to rape to put it mildly.

Which is why I (repeatedly) called it sexual assault. It was smash who tried to put words in my mouth by saying that I aligned it with rape.

Lingua Franca

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'm really sorry to hear that. It's completely understandable so why you wouldn't see the funny side of a pinch on the bum or so on. People who haven't been in your position might see it differently though.

Yep, which is why it's best to err on the side of caution and not touch strangers.

Uriel.

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Which is why I (repeatedly) called it sexual assault. It was smash who tried to put words in my mouth by saying that I aligned it with rape.

If I slapped you in the face would that be sexual assault?

What about the chest?

Amirani

wandatowell wrote: »

WTF is it about men who think they can just go and slap a womens ass??? I've commented on this before and it pisses me off.

You could say the same about women who do it to men. They're just idiots, and gender isn't a factor in their idiocy.

Lingua Franca

Uriel. wrote: »

If I slapped you in the face would that be sexual assault?

What about the chest?

No, that's assault. Do you really need this explained to you?

tritium

wandatowell wrote: »

WTF is it about men who think they can just go and slap a womens ass??? I've commented on this before and it pisses me off.

If some guy slapped the future Mrs. Towells ass I'd have ZERO issue pulling him up on his behaviour.

I'm assuming you'd be equally quick to pull up any woman who slapped one of your male friends on the ass?

smash

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Which is why I (repeatedly) called it sexual assault. It was smash who tried to put words in my mouth by saying that I aligned it with rape.

Lingua Franca wrote:

I'd say the guys trying to reduce sexual assault down to a pinch on the ass are trivialising rape culture.

Clearly you did... Rape Culture!

Lingua Franca

smash wrote: »

Clearly you did... Rape Culture!

You hate the term but you don't know what it means. Alright then.

Three Seasons

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Yep, which is why it's best to err on the side of caution and not touch strangers.

Well I certainly wouldn't think it's wrong for anyone to tap me on the arm to get my attention. I assume you don't have an issue with that.

smash

Lingua Franca wrote: »

You hate the term but you don't know what it means. Alright then.

Rape culture is a concept used to describe a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.

A slap on the ass IS NOT excusing, tolerating or condoning rape!

Lingua Franca

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Yep, which is why it's best to err on the side of caution and not touch strangers in a sexual manner.

Clearer?

B0jangles

Just wanted to say I agree with everything you're saying Lingua

sbsquarepants

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Yep, which is why it's best to err on the side of caution and not touch strangers.

I don't! I think it's a bit sleazy to be honest, i personally would never pinch a strangers bum or anything like that. But i see it all the time, and i've had it done to me countless times and not really minded. In absolute terms it's not that bad a thing to do. I think your experience has clouded your judgement on the issue tbh.

Lingua Franca

smash wrote: »

A slap on the ass IS NOT excusing, tolerating or condoning rape!

No.

But it is excusing, tolerating and condoning sexual violence.

Here's some more.

Examples of Rape Culture:

Blaming the victim (“She asked for it!”)
Trivializing sexual assault (“Boys will be boys!”)
Sexually explicit jokes
Tolerance of sexual harassment
Inflating false rape report statistics
Publicly scrutinizing a victim’s dress, mental state, motives, and history
Gratuitous gendered violence in movies and television
Defining “manhood” as dominant and sexually aggressive
Defining “womanhood” as submissive and sexually passive
Pressure on men to “score”
Pressure on women to not appear “cold”
Assuming only promiscuous women get raped
Assuming that men don’t get raped or that only “weak” men get raped
Refusing to take rape accusations seriously
Teaching women to avoid getting raped instead of teaching men not to rape

IM0

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Clearer?

so what about if they have a fetish for elbows? then thats sexual assault is it

B0jangles

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I don't! I think it's a bit sleazy to be honest, i personally would never pinch a strangers bum or anything like that. But i see it all the time, and i've had it done to me countless times and not really minded. In absolute terms it's not that bad a thing to do. I think your experience has clouded your judgement on the issue tbh.

Why does this always happen?

When someone talks about the relationship between unwanted sexual touching and rape culture they are told that saying such things is trivializing actual rape.
When the same person then says they themselves have been raped, then the dismissal switches to them being a damaged person who naturally has a skewed attitude to such matters.

It really is heads I win, tails you lose, isn't it?

smash

Lingua Franca wrote: »

No.

But it is excusing, tolerating and condoning sexual violence.

Violence? If someone slapped your back is it violence? Only if you want it to be...

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Here's some more.

Why did you highlight: Trivializing sexual assault (“Boys will be boys!”) there? Every man here has said they've had women do it to them!

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Tolerance of sexual harassment

"Sexual harassment refers to persistent and unwanted sexual advances"
A slap in jest is generally not persistent. If it was persistent then it's a different matter.