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  • #152
    godwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭godwin


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    Honestly if you think giving your name to a guard is such a massive invasion of your civil rights then you have serious mental issues.


    I personally don't think it is,I have no problem with complying with simple requests , but I believe people have a right to not comply , after all it is their constitutional right.

    I'm asking you

    "are you're saying people who stand up for their civil rights as laid out in the constitution of this country are scumbags?"

    Because you said

    "Its one thing that really is a sign of an absolute bol*ocks, stating crap like "under what legislation" instead of answering a few simple questions and going on your way. Its the type of carry on you expect from a scumbag not a normal person with a bit of cop on"

    Please don't question dodge.


  • #153
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    He can give any number of reasons, you will just end up arrested at that messing.

    What reasons? What would the arrest be for ?


  • #154
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,713 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    godwin wrote: »
    I personally don't think it is,I have no problem with complying with simple requests , but I believe people have a right to not comply , after all it is their constitutional right.

    I'm asking you

    "are you're saying people who stand up for their civil rights as laid out in the constitution of this country are scumbags?"

    No, not in general but usually people who cite "their civil rights" as a reason for say not giving their name to a guard tend to be people with something to hide. People didn't fight for civil rights to aid people act up when dealing with those in authority for no reason whatsoever other than to act the bol*ocks.

    When I think of someone refusing to give their name to a guard, the first image that comes into my head is a person with their tracksuit tucked into their socks and a few similar dressed people around him saying "you've no right to ask him that" in a rough accent.
    RustyNut wrote: »
    What reasons? What would the arrest be for ?

    Failing to comply with the direction of a member of an Garda Siochana

    "If you refuse to give your name and address or give one that the Garda thinks is false or misleading, the Garda can arrest you without a warrant. The failure to give your name and address or to give a false or misleading one is an offence in itself"


  • #155
    godwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭godwin


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    People didn't fight for civil rights to aid people act up when dealing with those in authority for no reason whatsoever other than to act the bol*ocks.

    So why is it a civil right then? Should we remove due process because it forces parties to go to court to sort out trivial matters such as murder etc?

    I can tell by your replies that you seem to have a rather introverted and blinkered view of society.


  • #156
    godwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭godwin


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    Failing to comply with the direction of a member of an Garda Siochana

    "If you refuse to give your name and address or give one that the Garda thinks is false or misleading, the Garda can arrest you without a warrant. The failure to give your name and address or to give a false or misleading one is an offence in itself"

    Why don't you quote the full legislation , where it says you do not have to provide your name unless you are suspected of committing an offence?


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  • #157
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,713 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    godwin wrote: »
    So why is it a civil right then? Should we remove due process because it forces parties to go to court to sort out trivial matters such as murder etc?

    I can tell by your replies that you seem to have a rather introverted and blinkered view of society.

    Introverted and blinkered? Where are you pulling that from?

    I don't feel the need to be a nuisance for the sake of being a nuisance and you somehow think I have a blinkered view of society. You have a vivid imagination I'll give you that.


  • #158
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    Valetta wrote: »
    I have nothing to hide as it stands and I don't feel like I'm treated as a criminal.

    Having to carry an ID card won't change that.

    It seems to me that some people try as much as possible to be awkward just for the sake of it.

    If there were less of these then all these regulations might not be needed.

    Constantly having to prove myself to law enforcement agencies with ID actually would make me fell pretty ****, to be perfectly honest.

    Mandatory ID is a different issue to complying with the Gardaí asking questions. I will answer a Gard no problem, but what is the need for ID? I just don't understand it.


  • #159
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,713 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    godwin wrote: »
    Why don't you quote the full legislation , where it says you do not have to provide your name unless you are suspected of committing an offence?

    Because if you are asked your details in a friendly way and comply with noting to hide you will be let on your way but if you start refusing you are immediately making yourself look guilty and even if the guard suspected you of noting, behaving like that will very quickly make him suspect you of something.

    Would you not rather just have an easier life and avoid the hassle by co-operating?


  • #160
    godwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭godwin


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    Introverted and blinkered? Where are you pulling that from?

    I don't feel the need to be a nuisance for the sake of being a nuisance and you somehow think I have a blinkered view of society. You have a vivid imagination I'll give you that.

    Once again , how is being aware of your civil liberties as enshrined under the irish constitution , using your civil liberties as enshrined under the irish constitution , being a nuisance?

    The Garda have no right just to randomly stop and ask anyone for their name etc , unless they suspect you of committing a crime - it's wrote in Article 40.3 of the Irish constitution. Being randomly stopped and questioned is an abuse of a man / womans personal liberty and freedom.

    I say blinkered as I kinda find it amusing that the people you regard as "scumbags" due to their choice in fashion , are more aware of their civil liberties than you who seems to think they are clued in.


  • #161
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,713 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    godwin wrote: »
    I say blinkered as I kinda find it amusing that the people you regard as "scumbags" due to their choice in fashion , are more aware of their civil liberties than you who seems to think they are clued in.

    A good criminal will know the law better than anyone, it's in their interest.

    Also I never said I didn't know my civil liberties I just don't feel the need to exercise them in these situations when it really is just to be akward.


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  • #162
    godwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭godwin


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    A good criminal will know the law better than anyone, it's in their interest.

    Once again , condemning people on nothing more than the grounds of fashion or the knowledge of their civil liberties.


  • #163
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    No, not in general but usually people who cite "their civil rights" as a reason for say not giving their name to a guard tend to be people with something to hide.

    What do you base this statement on ? Some facts or something you think might be the way it is.

    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    People didn't fight for civil rights to
    Give them up for no good reason.


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »

    When I think of someone refusing to give their name to a guard, the first image that comes into my head is a person with their tracksuit tucked into their socks and a few similar dressed people around him saying "you've no right to ask him that" in a rough accent.

    This says a lot about you.


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    Failing to comply with the direction of a member of an Garda Siochana

    "If you refuse to give your name and address or give one that the Garda thinks is false or misleading, the Garda can arrest you without a warrant. The failure to give your name and address or to give a false or misleading one is an offence in itself"

    Only under very limited circumstance but that was pointed out before.


  • #164
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Chemical Burn wrote: »
    yes, they are the root of a lot of issues, because they are undocumented and can not be monitored

    No need to look to the foreigners for being undocumented and un-monitorable?... We've our own home grown subsection of society that fits that bill in many cases.


  • #165
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »

    Also I never said I didn't know my civil liberties I just don't feel the need to exercise them.

    the day might come when you will feel the need to exercise them, let's just hope we still have some left...


  • #166
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,713 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    godwin wrote: »
    Once again , condemning people on nothing more than the grounds of fashion or the knowledge of their civil liberties.

    You were suggesting that people I was calling a scum bag were smarter than me in knowing the law, I was merely pointing out that often criminals have the best understanding of the law. I was not saying that some who knows the law is a criminal.

    RustyNut wrote: »

    This says a lot about you.

    It does, it says I have eyes and I can see the type of person who dresses like the above is usually at the very least a want to be hard man and often involved in some form of trouble or other. You won't find many people disagreeing with me either.

    I really can't see why you feel the need to refuse to give your name if asked. What are you gaining from it, is it just the little victory in your own head? It's not as if it even happens except when driving unless there is a very good reason.

    Do you refuse to give your name and say where you are coming from when asked at a check point?


  • #167
    Feathers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    But if you start refusing you are immediately making yourself look guilty and even if the guard suspected you of noting, behaving like that will very quickly make him suspect you of something.

    So you agree that Gardaí would stop and question you even if he didn't suspect you of anything?


  • #168
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    As I have the right of silence I refuse to answer your questions...


  • #169
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,713 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    Feathers wrote: »
    So you agree that Gardaí would stop and question you even if he didn't suspect you of anything?

    Why not, they don't have to be accusing you of anything to want to ask you questions. They may want to know if you saw anything, witnessed an accident, robbery etc etc. normally they wouldn't need your details but if they happened to ask for them I would personally have no issue whatsoever giving them.

    I will ask again, do the people who feel so strongly about giving "nothing away" refuse to provide your name and where you have come from and are going to if asked at a checkpoint?


  • #170
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »

    I will ask again, do the people who feel so strongly about giving "nothing away" refuse to provide your name and where you have come from and are going to if asked at a checkpoint?

    I have a legal obligation to produce a current driving licence at a check point and allways comply with the law.

    If I am not obliged to then that's a different matter.


  • #171
    godwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭godwin


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    Why not, they don't have to be accusing you of anything to want to ask you questions.

    Not if you want to answer , if you don't , they do.


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  • #172
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    RustyNut wrote: »
    I have a legal obligation to produce a current driving licence at a check point and allways comply with the law.

    If I am not obliged to then that's a different matter.

    Why? Do you mean you would just withold your name on principle?


  • #173
    godwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭godwin


    SB2013 wrote: »
    Why? Do you mean you would just withold your name on principle?

    But that's a right , nothing to do with principals.


  • #174
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    godwin wrote: »
    But that's a right , nothing to do with principals.

    It's a right that goes both ways. It's a choice. You have the right to answer or not to answer. By answering the question you will likely be assisting the Garda in doing his job in a more speedy fashion. By declining to answer you will be making his job more difficult. So i am asking, will you decline to answer simply because it is your right.


  • #175
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    SB2013 wrote: »
    Why? Do you mean you would just withold your name on principle?

    I would exercise my right to protect my privacy.


  • #176
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    RustyNut wrote: »
    I would exercise my right to protect my privacy.

    Genuine question: Why?


  • #177
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Valetta wrote: »
    Genuine question: Why?

    Because it is a right that we have and I believe that if we dond exercise these rights then we will loose them.

    If something serious happened of course we should all cooperate with the police etc.

    But just as an example, say a photographer is out and about takin pictures when he spots and photographs two Gardai giving someone a beating for no reason. They then spot him with the camera and ask his identity but they are not in a position to make a legal demand as he has not given them reason.

    Would you think it's in the photographers best intrest to give up his right to privacy in these circumstances or should he just tell them everything they want to know and hope it does not get used against him ?


  • #178
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    First off, how would he know they were giving the guy a beating for no reason?

    Secondly, if he were to make a complaint he would have to give his details anyway.


  • #179
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Valetta wrote: »
    First off, how would he know they were giving the guy a beating for no reason?

    Secondly, if he were to make a complaint he would have to give his details anyway.

    Because the guy was handcuffed face down on the ground and he doesn't want to make a complaint.

    Should he not have a right to protect his privacy in these circumstances.


  • #180
    OhHiMark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭OhHiMark


    "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."


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  • #181
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    RustyNut wrote: »
    Because the guy was handcuffed face down on the ground and he doesn't want to make a complaint.

    Should he not have a right to protect his privacy in these circumstances.

    No.


This discussion has been closed.
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