Season 3: Episode 4 *** Have NOT read the books/SPOILERS ***MOD Note Post#1+69

AlmightyCushion

iamanengine wrote: »

The bit with Theon was a major WTF moment? Don't see why the young lad went to all the trouble of freeing him only to bring him back to the same place, doesn't make sense to me at all.

The only reason I can see is he might be trying to impress the higher ups and progress up the ranks. A prisoner escapes and kills a bunch of soldiers and you manage to bring him in on your own alive. That is bound to impress people and make you look good. It could also just be that he's a sadistic bastard and took great pleasure in it. Given the look on his face I certainly wouldn't rule that out.

golfball37

I think he took Theon to gain his trust, so he could find out the truth about Winterfell and the Stark boys. Once he found that out he led young Greyjoy back.

Dempsey

Yep, it was a cruel confidence trick with Theon to find out information

expectationlost

who is holding greyjoy again?

Rosy Posy

iamanengine wrote: »

The bit with Theon was a major WTF moment? Don't see why the young lad went to all the trouble of freeing him only to bring him back to the same place, doesn't make sense to me at all.

My take on it was that he's a sadist and wanted to torture his mind as well as his body. The gleeful look on his face when he was tied on the rack was chilling.

Also he probably got major kudos for bringing him back. He was just the lad sweeping the floors, I'm sure he's in for some kind of promotion.

Oops, exactly what Almighty Cushion said, should probably read to the end of the thread before replying

Rosy Posy

expectationlost wrote: »

who is holding greyjoy again?

The Boltons of the Dreadfort. Starks banner men. They have a reputation for cruelty and their sigil is a flayed man. They're the same crowd that have Jaime and Brienne.

The interactive map and the guide to the houses on the HBO site is really good.

I haven't read the books btw.

Rosy Posy

DL Saint wrote: »

I interpreted that as she was going to sacrifice one of Stannis' kids to the Lord of Light or something, you could be right though...

I didn't think Stannis had kids, I thought his wife was sickly and had only stillbirths.

Tzar Chasm

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I didn't think Stannis had kids, I thought his wife was sickly and had only stillbirths.

I am a book reader, but i'm fairly sure there was a reference to stanis wife and daughter in the last season, the daughters name is shireen, can't remember the missues name offhand, but I think they were on the beach when melisandre burned the statues, where they went after that is anyone guess.

DL Saint

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I didn't think Stannis had kids, I thought his wife was sickly and had only stillbirths.

I thought he had, I could be wrong, but I thought it was mentioned previously...

titan18

DL Saint wrote: »

I thought he had, I could be wrong, but I thought it was mentioned previously...

They did both. Mentioned in one episode he had no children, and his wife had just given stillbirths. Then in an episode much later, they mentioned he had a child, and they've cast her at least.

Kuhnt Pounder

What a brilliant episode.

Rosy Posy

titan18 wrote: »

They did both. Mentioned in one episode he had no children, and his wife had just given stillbirths. Then in an episode much later, they mentioned he had a child, and they've cast her at least.

At 3.03 she says 'she has given you no sons, only stillborns, only death' and the they make the beast with two backs...:eek:

oxygen

Im surprised everyone is asking why the guy brought Theon back to his captives. I just assumed it was because he wanted to give him a bit of hope before taking it straight back off him in a form of sadism. He was grinning when Theon was put back in the stocks.

The information he got wasnt that useful I thought, just that Theon killed two boys.

pixelburp

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Im surprised everyone is asking why the guy brought Theon back to his captives. I just assumed it was because he wanted to give him a bit of hope before taking it straight back off him in a form of sadism. He was grinning when Theon was put back in the stocks.

The information he got wasnt that useful I thought, just that Theon killed two boys.

But also that the two Stark kids are definitely alive - or at least weren't actually killed by Theon - assuming the Boltons (and it's still just good guesswork as to whether they are or not, but it's likely) are still nominally reporting to Rob, then it looks like himself & moma Stark will get some form of good news at last.

Hyzepher

These Bolton guys have me confused.

Are these not the same guys that went with Theon to find the Stark kids and then suggested that they kill 2 boys instead. If that's the case then they already know they are still alive.

Maybe I have the Boltons and some other guys mixed up - I don't think it's clear who has Theon

Cookiemunster

Hyzepher wrote: »

These Bolton guys have me confused.

Are these not the same guys that went with Theon to find the Stark kids and then suggested that they kill 2 boys instead. If that's the case then they already know they are still alive.

Maybe I have the Boltons and some other guys mixed up - I don't think it's clear who has Theon

The guys originally with Theon in Winterfell were Greyjoy men who came with him from the Iron Isles. Roose Bolton then sent his men to Winterfell to get it back from Theon.

Rosy Posy

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The guys originally with Theon in Winterfell were Greyjoy men who came with him from the Iron Isles. Roose Bolton then sent his men to Winterfell to get it back from Theon.

The Ironborn who were at Winterfell with Theon handed him over to the Boltons. There's a scene where Robb Stark tells Bolton to instruct his bastard son to pardon the Ironborn men and allow them to go home provided they gave up Theon. From this, and the fact that they are torturing Theon on a rack that is the house's sigil ('the flayed man of house Bolton, a tad gruesome for me'-Jaime Lannister when they're approached by Locke and his men) you can infer that he is being held by the Boltons despite the fact that they don't formally introduce themselves.

calex71

Rosy Posy wrote: »

The Ironborn who were at Winterfell with Theon handed him over to the Boltons. There's a scene where Robb Stark tells Bolton to instruct his bastard son to pardon the Ironborn men and allow them to go home provided they gave up Theon. From this, and the fact that they are torturing Theon on a rack that is the house's sigil ('the flayed man of house Bolton, a tad gruesome for me'-Jaime Lannister when they're approached by Locke and his men) you can infer that he is being held by the Boltons despite the fact that they don't formally introduce themselves.

MOD NOTE - Not aimed solely at you poster
I'll say this once and once only to you and others here (they know who they are), take it to the book readers thread !!!!!

If there is a problem feel free to PM me or the other mods and discuss.

TheUsual

I just caught up now with this episode at last.

Looks like trouble ahead, army, dragons, pissed off Queen, civil war, not to mention armies at the wall.
Almost feel sorry for the captured and tortured former heroes. Could be 3 messy deaths next week ?
Hard to tell, would be nice to concentrate on what is brewing over the wall.

Rabidlamb

I'm an avid watcher but a lot of what's going on in the north has me confused.

Who is holding Theon ?, why let him escape to gain his trust, fair enough that the kid found out about the Stark boys but what about the 4 riders he killed from his own clan, the ones who were going to rape Theon, none of this adds up.

The Castle Black Crows go north, have a beating at the Fist of the First Men, come back to the daughter raping father then some minor character goes nuts which leaves about 6 of them who are obviously canon fodder once Mance Ryder arrives. I can't remember why they went North to begin with but this whole section seems like a lazy plot device to get them out of the way.

Who is holding Jamie & Briene ?, I want it spelt out in colour & slowly god-dammit.

Besides that I'm really enjoying how this series has picked up.
I liked the fact the CGI budget got a boost & we got to sense what an army of 8,000 looks like.
If only they has thought of buying a few boats
Much better than seeing Robb's battlefields or Harrenhall last season after the event cause they hadn't the money to show an army let alone a battle.

Witcher

Rabidlamb wrote: »

The Castle Black Crows go north, have a beating at the Fist of the First Men, come back to the daughter raping father then some minor character goes nuts which leaves about 6 of them who are obviously canon fodder once Mance Ryder arrives. I can't remember why they went North to begin with but this whole section seems like a lazy plot device to get them out of the way.

The Nights Watch went beyond the Wall to find out why the wildlings are abandoning their villages and to find Jon's uncle; Benjen Stark.

krudler

Is Benjen dead? I can't even remember at this point

dogski

This is one of my favourite shows! Its great

Rosy Posy

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Who is holding Theon ?

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Who is holding Jamie & Briene ?, I want it spelt out in colour & slowly god-dammit.

Ok, so, I promise you that I haven't read the books, I've just watched the whole series very recently and have a good memory.

Have a look at this composite of the scenes with Roose Bolton (the Stark's bannerman)

At 5.28 Robb Stark has a conversation with Roose Bolton who is instructing his bastard son to take back Winterfell. Robb says that 'Any Ironborn who surrender will be allowed to return safely to their homes...with the exception of Theon Greyjoy'. Bolton responds 'I expect his countrymen will turn on him as soon as they hear the offer'. Robb wants him brought back alive to answer for his crimes (see 3.13).

(Incidentally, at 2.50 Bolton says 'let me send word to my bastard at the Dreadfort'. We can assume that this is the Bolton's castle and the scene of the torture chamber).

In this scene at 1.48 , Theon's second in command (Dagmer Cleftjaw according to the imdb) knocks Theon over the head and says, 'Let's go home'. From this you can infer that they took Robb Stark's offer (passed down by Bolton's bastard) of pardon in return for handing over Theon, and that they have, indeed, gone home.

This is one sign that Theon has been taken by the Boltons.

As for the flaying thing being their signature method of torturing prisoners, in this scene

Bolton is trying to encourage Robb to torture the prisoners to get information, saying that it is customary in his house, to which Robb replies that his father had outlawed flaying. This was what made me assume that he would not approve of what was being done to Theon. In that scene, as in the previous one mentioned, you can see the outline of the Bolton sigil of the flayed man on his breastplate (I only noticed this when I went back to find the scenes).

As for the Bolton's sigil, this is made more explicit in the scene I referred to in my post when Jaime and Brienne are apprehended by Locke- in this clip at 3.32, Jaime says 'the flayed man of house Bolton, a bit gruesome for my taste' and you get a good clear look at the sigil on the banner.

I think that from all this evidence its perfectly clear who the Bolton's are and that they're pretty shady and into torture.

Slow and colourful enough for you?

Rosy Posy

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Who is holding Theon ?, why let him escape to gain his trust, fair enough that the kid found out about the Stark boys but what about the 4 riders he killed from his own clan, the ones who were going to rape Theon, none of this adds up.

I reckon that the guy who released Theon and then brought him back was working on his own and both a sadist and looking to move up in the world from dungeon sweeper to torturer. I'd say that he let him go so that he could apprehend him again, getting the credit for that, while blaming the deaths of the 4 lads on Theon, who would get it even worse as he had now done something to them personally, fuelling the youngfella's sadism, and also conveniently creating openings in four higher up positions, one of whom he could fill. Also it looks like he got a kick out of fcuking with his mind. Fairly brilliant of the young lad, assuming you've got absolutely no morals and think its a laugh to torture people mentally and physically. He seems like a psycho to me...that look on his face!!

Rabidlamb

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Slow and colourful enough for you?

Now that's some fine work right there.

Rosy Posy

Rabidlamb wrote: »

The Castle Black Crows go north, have a beating at the Fist of the First Men, come back to the daughter raping father then some minor character goes nuts which leaves about 6 of them who are obviously canon fodder once Mance Ryder arrives. I can't remember why they went North to begin with but this whole section seems like a lazy plot device to get them out of the way.

I think that its incredibly important because these are the only ones (besides Manse Rayder's army) who can confirm the threat of the White Walkers. Sam was supposed to be sending ravens in the opening of the first episode of the seasons, presumably to warn the other Night's Watchmen. Now that they're all scattered and leaderless no one reliable can bring this news back to the rest of Westeros, who think the Walkers are just an old ghost story. I wonder if this is going to be part of Sam's function in surviving, as well as the crusade of Jon Snow.

I also think that they built it up quite well. Ben Stark and his rangers went missing and the wite showing up at Castle Black made them suspicious, so they went off to find answers. They keep on telling us that the Nights Watchmen are all the dregs, so what would you expect, especially when they've just cremated one of their own who they suspect Craster of starving to death. They know that he makes sacrifices to the White Walkers and Rast mentions in this episode that he wouldn't be surprised if Craster would sacrifice them if the Walkers came calling.

In saying that I didn't expect that at all, it was pretty shocking, especially the way they killed Commander Mormont. I feel sorry for Craster's daughter-wives, I doubt the remaining Crows will be much better to live under than Craster.

Paleface

Is their any chance that the guy who released Theon is actually Roose Boltons bastard and he was just disguising himself as being lower down the pecking order so as not to rouse Theon's suspicions?

I can't remember that we've been formally presented with that character so in theory it could be any of them.

Rosy Posy

Paleface wrote: »

Is their any chance that the guy who released Theon is actually Roose Boltons bastard and he was just disguising himself as being lower down the pecking order so as not to rouse Theon's suspicions?

I can't remember that we've been formally presented with that character so in theory it could be any of them.

Why would he kill four of his own guys tho? If this was the case then surely he could have been just as effective by bringing Theon to 'safety' and having a chat along the way. Do they really have enough men in their army to sacrifice four of them completely needlessly?

pixelburp

Thing is with the Theon plotline, it's not the first development that has been a bit confusing, if not unexplained. Don't forget we're nearly half-way through season 3 and still no clearer as to who sacked Winterfell. While it's a case of logical guesswork that the Boltons are holding Theon, Jamie & Brienne (although with the latter two we know it for sure), there has been no hint as to who trashed the Stark capital at the end of series 2. Between this and the bizarre tactic by Theon's torturer (which I think in any other show would have been called out as a lazy red-herring) there's a lot frustratingly unexplained about Theon's arc.

Rabidlamb

Does anyone else get a sense this season that some of the characters who haven't been moving about much shot all their scenes in one afternoon.
I'm thinking of Tywin, Ryder, Robb, Danny, Jon Snow etc..

I get the sense they've made a conscious effort to do this for the actors sake.

Paleface

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Why would he kill four of his own guys tho? If this was the case then surely he could have been just as effective by bringing Theon to 'safety' and having a chat along the way. Do they really have enough men in their army to sacrifice four of them completely needlessly?

I realise that wouldn't make sense unless he was completely ruthless, which from what I gather the Boltons are, and it further lured Theon into a false sense of security to get the information out of him without harming him physically. Robb wants him alive, not tortured to death.

TheUsual

I think a second watch will help with this season more than Seasons 1 & 2.
A lot of new characters, twists and plots will make sense on a second watch.

I just caught up since halfway through season 2, so my head is spinning at the moment.

Just wondering how much of a threat Daenerys and her Dragons will really be if there is a massive zombie attack at the same time. The two forces are not united and she will just be a nuisance rather than a big player.
Great acting and effects at the moment though.

ricero

to anyone that has read the books without spoiling, is it safe to assume that roose bolton (ratz from paths to freedom) is a major character in the books and thus will be in the tv series ?

Rosy Posy

pixelburp wrote: »

Thing is with the Theon plotline, it's not the first development that has been a bit confusing, if not unexplained. Don't forget we're nearly half-way through season 3 and still no clearer as to who sacked Winterfell. While it's a case of logical guesswork that the Boltons are holding Theon, Jamie & Brienne (although with the latter two we know it for sure), there has been no hint as to who trashed the Stark capital at the end of series 2. Between this and the bizarre tactic by Theon's torturer (which I think in any other show would have been called out as a lazy red-herring) there's a lot frustratingly unexplained about Theon's arc.

This feature is one of the things I love about this show. There are lots of loose ends for you to speculate over and the smallest details come back in larger ways later on. I prefer everything not to be spelled out- they keep you waiting as they drip feed information which adds to the suspense. I also love how no one is safe and anything can happen- for example, Ned Starks' execution blew me away!

Rosy Posy

TheUsual wrote: »

Just wondering how much of a threat Daenerys and her Dragons will really be if there is a massive zombie attack at the same time. The two forces are not united and she will just be a nuisance rather than a big player.

I have to say that at some point in the future I'm envisaging some kind of end game scenario where the fight for power shifts to a fight for survival and they all have to decide whether they will join together to fight the walkers or continue to squabble and get turned into zombies. I think that Jon Snow is going to be instrumental in this as a bridge between the wildlings and those north of the wall.

Tzar Chasm

ricero wrote: »

to anyone that has read the books without spoiling, is it safe to assume that roose bolton (ratz from paths to freedom) is a major character in the books and thus will be in the tv series ?

as a book reader i'll let you in on a little secret

nothing is safe to assume, remember Ned Stark/Khal Drogo/Renley/Mormont, they all seemed to be major characters too, the only thing you can be sure of is that you can't be sure of anything

calex71

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

as a book reader i'll let you in on a little secret

nothing is safe to assume, remember Ned Stark/Khal Drogo/Renley/Mormont, they all seemed to be major characters too, the only thing you can be sure of is that you can't be sure of anything

You got lucky there with that post , I was full set to kick you up the arse and out of the forum

thiarfearr

I'm watching season 1 again, is it ever explained who ordered the second hit on Bran, with Tyrions sword?

AlmightyCushion

thiarfearr wrote: »

I'm watching season 1 again, is it ever explained who ordered the second hit on Bran, with Tyrions sword?

I can't remember. At a guess I'd say it was Jaime. He obviously didn't wanted people to find out about the whole riding his sister thing and he could easily get access to Tyrion's sword. Could be the Cersei either.

Washington Irving

thiarfearr wrote: »

I'm watching season 1 again, is it ever explained who ordered the second hit on Bran, with Tyrions sword?

As far as the TV show is concerned, no, it isn't.

Syferus

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Does anyone else get a sense this season that some of the characters who haven't been moving about much shot all their scenes in one afternoon.
I'm thinking of Tywin, Ryder, Robb, Danny, Jon Snow etc..

I get the sense they've made a conscious effort to do this for the actors sake.

Would you expect Jon Snow to be sipping some ale with Tyrion in King's Landing or Tywin flying up to the Wall to fight off some White Walkers were it not the crew making shooting easier 'for the actor's sake'? I don't know where you expect any of those characters to be but where they are. Everyone is where they are to service their character's storyline, nothing more.

Rosy Posy

thiarfearr wrote: »

I'm watching season 1 again, is it ever explained who ordered the second hit on Bran, with Tyrions sword?

Afair it wasn't said explicitly but there was a conversation in s01e02, when they find out that Bran might be alright where its alluded to. The Lannisters are having breakfast at Winterfell. Tyrion expresses disapproval but says that ultimately he is loyal to his family. Will have to go back and look at it again.

Degag

TheUsual wrote: »

Just wondering how much of a threat Daenerys and her Dragons will really be if there is a massive zombie attack at the same time. The two forces are not united and she will just be a nuisance rather than a big player.
Great acting and effects at the moment though.

Seeing as the dragons breathe fire and the Wights (and maybe the Walkers, not sure) are killed by it, i imagine she'll have a big part to play.

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I can't remember. At a guess I'd say it was Jaime. He obviously didn't wanted people to find out about the whole riding his sister thing and he could easily get access to Tyrion's sword. Could be the Cersei either.

If i was guessing i'd guess Jaime over Cersei seeing as Jaime and Tyrion actually got on AFAIR. Then again.... it's not like Jaime wouldn't.

thiarfearr

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Afair it wasn't said explicitly but there was a conversation in s01e02, when they find out that Bran might be alright where its alluded to. The Lannisters are having breakfast at Winterfell. Tyrion expresses disapproval but says that ultimately he is loyal to his family. Will have to go back and look at it again.

Its implied he knows about them, but when he's questioned he says he wouldn't be stupid enough to use his own weapon, and seems properly surprised when he's accused.

If it was Tyrion though, its funny people asking how can anyone have sympathy for Jaime Lannister after what he did to Bran when nearly everyone like Tyrion. Although watching the first season again brings back what a c**t Jaime was

muckisluck

calex71 wrote: »

You got lucky there with that post , I was full set to kick you up the arse and out of the forum

Not lucky. Just very damned clever. I enjoyed it anyway:D

RasTa

I've read the books won't say more then that but I do love reading this thread just to see the reactions. I couldn't wait after the first season so decided to read them all, did the same for Lord of the Rings.