Restrict A3 riders gears

Chips Lovell

I must pin a number on some weekend to find out what all the fuss is about.

wav1

buffalo wrote: »

Drogheda's just too flat for me wav! I did the Connor-Coombes last year as an A4, great race. And have to admire the amount of work that must go into hosting senior men's and ladies' races, and a youth stage race all in one weekend. But sadly, I chose hills this year. What's happening in July?

Thanks for the info, my respect for/awe of the juniors just increased a notch!

Brendan Campbell memorial Sun July 28th.13 x laps of same circuit as Peter Bidwell last Sat.
Also promoting Dunsany GP for A3s A4s and Women on Sun 12th May
as Shay Elliott Mem doesn't cater for anything below A2.

buffalo

wav1 wrote: »

Brendan Campbell memorial Sun July 28th.13 x laps of same circuit as Peter Bidwell last Sat.
Also promoting Dunsany GP for A3s A4s and Women on Sun 12th May
as Shay Elliott Mem doesn't cater for anything below A2.

I'm four points off A2, so if you want me at Dunsany, you'll have to get your lads to keep beating me until then.

wav1

kerryscoob wrote: »

As a parent of one of current crop of juniors, the guys follow these threads and get a great kick out of the reading material.
We must remember these guys have been training since Oct. 5 times a week and once their season kicks off as Wav says this will up. Their season really ups from July. Watching my fella I'd be telling him to rest up but his spins may be 2hrs at a very easy heart rate.My tuppence worth, majority of 3s are flogging themselves to death training. But these juniors train consistent. As regards an easy life I think we always look back on school as been easy but nowadays peer, points, study, drinking culture are all massive distractions. These guys are driven to succeed, love the bike, the craic and the desire to hurt each other. Wav will testify these guys off the bike are messers and enjoy the banter.
Their parents are living the memories every Monday, the juniors have already moved on and planning the weekend ahead.

Have to agree.A shower of messers,who plot to try and beat each other,but on the whole thet all get on great.This is only an issue this year because theres so many of them of a certain standard.To be honest its a great issue as a few yrs ago I honestly didn't think we'd get back to this.17 Irish riders in 2009 Junior Tour.Some moving out next year but by what i seen at Ras na N'og at the weekend theres another crop on the way.Still think regardless of what some may feel,that the correct decision was taken as regards keeping them all the equal of A3 status.A few yrs ago they would have been shoved up A2[prematurely]get hammered and dissapear.Theres an element of real enjoyment on it for them as it is.As regards the A3s riding 52x14 dont think that would help anyone really.As posted many times by me,the ideal scenario[and I think we're going to achieve it in a couple of years]is back to Junior specific racing.I look forward to it as the few times that happens as it is ie The Junior Tour and Nat Champs its great stuff.

dave2pvd

wav1 wrote: »

Have to agree.A shower of messers,who plot to try and beat each other,but on the whole thet all get on great.This is only an issue this year because theres so many of them of a certain standard.To be honest its a great issue as a few yrs ago I honestly didn't think we'd get back to this.17 Irish riders in 2009 Junior Tour.Some moving out next year but by what i seen at Ras na N'og at the weekend theres another crop on the way.Still think regardless of what some may feel,that the correct decision was taken as regards keeping them all the equal of A3 status.A few yrs ago they would have been shoved up A2[prematurely]get hammered and dissapear.Theres an element of real enjoyment on it for them as it is.As regards the A3s riding 52x14 dont think that would help anyone really.As posted many times by me,the ideal scenario[and I think we're going to achieve it in a couple of years]is back to Junior specific racing.I look forward to it as the few times that happens as it is ie The Junior Tour and Nat Champs its great stuff.

I recall racing back in '88 and '89 as a junior. We had huge fields. 100 riders would not have been an unusual number. We were never combined - other than in races with handicap. Different times, for sure.

Pablo Rubio

dave2pvd wrote: »

I recall racing back in '88 and '89 as a junior. We had huge fields. 100 riders would not have been an unusual number. We were never combined - other than in races with handicap. Different times, for sure.

Different times alright......If I recall correctly myself , some of the Juniors in the years 88-89 and years close to that were winning A1 races.

dave2pvd

Pablo Rubio wrote: »

Different times alright......If I recall correctly myself , some of the Juniors in the years 88-89 and years close to that were winning A1 races.

Yep. 2 of them were in my old club: Kennedy and Duff. (St. Tiernan's).

dedocdude

have ye considered the possibility that the current juniors are not that good, but that the current A3's are really bad? ;-)

Slo_Rida

dedocdude wrote: »

have ye considered the possibility that the current juniors are not that good, but that the current A3's are really bad? ;-)

Brilliant, prepare for the wrath :eek:

Brads locks

Our current juniors are as good a bunch as we have seen in a quite a few years,the kanturk lads and most of the NRPT team would get up in any of the shorter 1and 2 races, in particular Eddie Dunbar would give any 1st cat a run for there money, as for restricting gears for a3s, complete rubbish, if your trying to get the 3s to improve their standard then just get them to train more.

fondriest

Brads locks wrote: »

Our current juniors are as good a bunch as we have seen in a quite a few years,the kanturk lads and most of the NRPT team would get up in any of the shorter 1and 2 races, in particular Eddie Dunbar would give any 1st cat a run for there money, as for restricting gears for a3s, complete rubbish, if your trying to get the 3s to improve their standard then just get them to train more.

"Train more" sure why didn't I think of that before ?

dedocdude

Well think about it - every year there is a usually a new comer to the sport that goes right the way thru the ranks in the season, starting off at the lowest level, ending up an A1 by the time the races run out e.g. Damian Shaw a couple of years ago, you could argue that year the junior's ranks were not so rich that year, so what about Con Collis, think he started in 08'? Would have had Lavery, Bennett, Downey etc as juniors in his combined races - hardly soft touches there - he flew thru the ranks.

So perhaps the current juniors talent is hindering the promotion of worthy A3's to advance to a higher grade, but maybe there are no Shaw's/Collis' this year. Its a valid point.

Slo_Rida

dedocdude wrote: »

Its a valid point.

We'll be the judge of that

fondriest

dedocdude wrote: »

Well think about it - every year there is a usually a new comer to the sport that goes right the way thru the ranks in the season, starting off at the lowest level, ending up an A1 by the time the races run out e.g. Damian Shaw a couple of years ago, you could argue that year the junior's ranks were not so rich that year, so what about Con Collis, think he started in 08'? Would have had Lavery, Bennett, Downey etc as juniors in his combined races - hardly soft touches there - he flew thru the ranks.

So perhaps the current juniors talent is hindering the promotion of worthy A3's to advance to a higher grade, but maybe there are no Shaw's/Collis' this year. Its a valid point.

It is a valid point , BUT. I think the Shaw/Collis type rider will still get promoted but what about the other 10 riders that would have gotten promoted . Yes when Lavery and Bennett were riding in the combined races they took a lot of the points along with the supervets like OLoughlin , Bracken ,etc but the idea of going away from combined races was because of riders finishing the season on 150+ points and losing other riders from the sport . The current set up is making a mockery of the "ability " grading system .
Saying that I do agree that the junior riders should be on the most part protected from the top A1's and 160 km races . It's a tough one to call for C.I. Or maybe it isn't .

wav1

fondriest wrote: »

It is a valid point , BUT. I think the Shaw/Collis type rider will still get promoted but what about the other 10 riders that would have gotten promoted . Yes when Lavery and Bennett were riding in the combined races they took a lot of the points along with the supervets like OLoughlin , Bracken ,etc but the idea of going away from combined races was because of riders finishing the season on 150+ points and losing other riders from the sport . The current set up is making a mockery of the "ability " grading system .
Saying that I do agree that the junior riders should be on the most part protected from the top A1's and 160 km races . It's a tough one to call for C.I. Or maybe it isn't .

Huge amount of juniors went of the radar in 2010 and 2011 when there was no jun category in Cycling Ireland.They were everything from A4 to A1.Jun Champs came around in Sept 2011 and about 20 riders in it.Nobody knew who was junior or wasn't.Now they have at least their identity back.Theres about 15 or more of them now,who under the old system would have been gone out of A3.I'll say it again,that they would be good enough to go up but to what long term cost.As the season progresses a lot of them will ride up in A1/A2 races with the permission of C I to prepare for specific events.I feel thats plenty for them for now.
Back in early March in Navan an early breakaway group consisted of 9 riders [5 juns and 4 A3s].Those 4 A3s have now gone up to A2 and they did so quite rapidly.To be honest I think the presence of the juns in the races for the most part is lifting a lot of the A3s and making it really good competitive racing.These decisions are made at C I AGM and I for one will be hoping and fighting to keep the system as is for now,as the junior specific races would be the real goal I feel.
I dont know and im not going to bite on the earlier post re how good the present day juns are,but whats apparent at most races is that there are about 20 of them or so with a fair amount of ability.Back in 2008 in the Lavery/Bennett time there were only about a half dozen or so.Thats what makes this years crop of juniors different I think.

Peterx

Having a strong cadre of juniors in the A3 ranks is a fantastic addition for both the juniors and the A3's. The stronger A3's who do get the upgrade will be more prepared for the A2 ranks after racing the good juniors.

The weaker juniors and the weaker A3's can work together when they get dropped and that's great.

The strong A3's are the ones getting shafted by a ridiculous decision* to not make use of technology (which is being used in the A1/2 race on the same day in the same place) and thus not receiving their allocated points and getting the upgrade that their improved cycling deserves.

(apologies for continually banging on about the farce of the video being usable to separate A1/2 and not junior/A3 but it annoys me in the same way the use of the word helmet annoys many)

wav1

Peterx wrote: »

Having a strong cadre of juniors in the A3 ranks is a fantastic addition for both the juniors and the A3's. The stronger A3's who do get the upgrade will be more prepared for the A2 ranks after racing the good juniors.

The weaker juniors and the weaker A3's can work together when they get dropped and that's great.

The strong A3's are the ones getting shafted by a ridiculous decision* to not make use of technology (which is being used in the A1/2 race on the same day in the same place) and thus not receiving their allocated points and getting the upgrade that their improved cycling deserves.

(apologies for continually banging on about the farce of the video being usable to separate A1/2 and not junior/A3 but it annoys me in the same way the use of the word helmet annoys many)

Theres where the real problem lies.First Actual A3 in Nenagh was 9th and got 2 pts as opposed to the 10 he should/could have got for being 1st A3 in a race over 100k.

Chips Lovell

wav1 wrote: »

To be honest I think the presence of the juns in the races for the most part is lifting a lot of the A3s and making it really good competitive racing.These decisions are made at C I AGM and I for one will be hoping and fighting to keep the system as is for now,as the junior specific races would be the real goal I feel.

Agree with you. I think putting them into A3 both protects them from over-racing but also makes junior racing a lot more visible, both of which are a good thing. If junior racing continues to grow at the rate it's going at now, it won't be long before we have the numbers to start having Junior races alongside senior promotions, which will also solve the A3 points issue.

Beasty

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

If junior racing continues to grow at the rate it's going at now, it won't be long before we have the numbers to start having Junior races alongside senior promotions, which will also solve the A3 points issue.

That in itself brings additional logistical problems though. wav1 and the Drogheda guys put on a fantastic weekend to accomodate both open and youth racing, and Stamullen did the same the previous weekend. Other clubs/officials need to step up to plate if we are going to try and squeeze another category into an already crowded calendar (BTW, my solution would be to allow more than one club to put on events in the same Province on the same day to spread the load around a bit more)

buffalo

Beasty wrote: »

That in itself brings additional logistical problems though. wav1 and the Drogheda guys put on a fantastic weekend to accomodate both open and youth racing, and Stamullen did the same the previous weekend. Other clubs/officials need to step up to plate if we are going to try and squeeze another category into an already crowded calendar (BTW, my solution would be to allow more than one club to put on events in the same Province on the same day to spread the load around a bit more)

But then you hit the problem of clubs making a loss on running events, because the fields are reduced. Might be solved if one club put on the A1/2/3 events, and the other puts on A4, women and juniors, or something. Then you go to one place according to your category, but the load is still spread.

Musings.

wav1

Beasty wrote: »

That in itself brings additional logistical problems though. wav1 and the Drogheda guys put on a fantastic weekend to accomodate both open and youth racing, and Stamullen did the same the previous weekend. Other clubs/officials need to step up to plate if we are going to try and squeeze another category into an already crowded calendar (BTW, my solution would be to allow more than one club to put on events in the same Province on the same day to spread the load around a bit more)

I know this is a bit off topic,but when you talk about a crowded calender,some problems ahead in the near future.
Sun May 12th Shay Elliott/Dunsany GP depending on category
Sun May 19th Mark Hayden Carlow CANCELLED
Sun May 26th Betty Darcy Mem CANCELLED
Sun June 2nd No race on Leinster Calender
Sun June 9th Meath G P.
So from May 12th to June 9th no Sunday race in Leinster.Bit of a bummer to say the least.Going to have to come up with something if I can push it.

Beasty

buffalo wrote: »

But then you hit the problem of clubs making a loss on running events, because the fields are reduced. Might be solved if one club put on the A1/2/3 events, and the other puts on A4, women and juniors, or something. Then you go to one place according to your category, but the load is still spread.

Musings.

Which brings us back to the prize money point - it does seem however that clubs survived on smaller fields in the past - it's only the last few years as I understand it, that numbers have grown significantly

However I do accept that some of the other costs associated with putting on events have increased. I would also question whether time has come to increase entry fees by a couple of euros to reflect additional costs

The only way I see of getting more races on the same roads on the same day is to run some of them back to back rather than simultaneously. Although there no problem in principle with that (and indeed that's what happened with the past 2 weekends youth racing), it does put more of a strain on the support and requires additional buy-in from the communities affected if you are running races for the whole day on a particular circuit rather than a maximum of around 4 hours

Beasty

wav1 wrote: »

I know this is a bit off topic,but when you talk about a crowded calender,some problems ahead in the near future.
Sun May 12th Shay Elliott/Dunsany GP depending on category
Sun May 19th Mark Hayden Carlow CANCELLED
Sun May 26th Betty Darcy Mem CANCELLED
Sun June 2nd No race on Leinster Calender
Sun June 9th Meath G P.
So from May 12th to June 9th no Sunday race in Leinster.Bit of a bummer to say the least.Going to have to come up with something if I can push it.

Do you know the reasons for those cancellations? - it surely cannot be numbers given how many have been turning up so far (I appreciate it usually starts to drop off a bit around this time)

buffalo

Beasty wrote: »

Do you know the reasons for those cancellations? - it surely cannot be numbers given how many have been turning up so far (I apprecaiet it usually starts to drop off a bit around this time)

The Hayden and Darcy races are cancelled!? News to me.

fondriest

buffalo wrote: »

The Hayden and Darcy races are cancelled!? News to me.

I hadn't heard about the Hayden race but the Darcy race is cancelled according to Slipstream cc site .

wav1

Beasty wrote: »

Do you know the reasons for those cancellations? - it surely cannot be numbers given how many have been turning up so far (I appreciate it usually starts to drop off a bit around this time)

Slipstream C C announced that due to lack of sponsor Betty/Sam Darcy wouldn't be going ahead.
The Hayden race is normally in July,but this year applied for in May.
Not 100% sure but the word is its not happening
The bank holiday w/end in June has nothing in Leinster on Fri/Sat/Sun
This would be the weekend that traditionally the Swords G P would have happened,and theres no replacement event.
When compiling the calender earlier I had worries in this regard and it looks as if they are coming through.
May 19th is not really a problem as the Emyvale club have their event,which is always well supported by Leinster riders.Other 2 w/ends look like a washout lads.Ras Donegal is the option for June w/end but because it starts on the Friday is not possible for many.

wav1

buffalo wrote: »

The Hayden and Darcy races are cancelled!? News to me.

You learn all the time.

dave2pvd

The issues being raised in this thread are not unique to the Irish racing scene. I race in the US. To compare:

* Your races are much cheaper to enter.
* Our juniors cannot race above cat 3 (we have 5 categories).
* Cat 3s grumble about faster/skinnier/fitter juniors here too.
* If for example you are a cat 3 in a combined cat 2/3 event, then your actual finish position is what points are assigned to - you don't calculate finish position by removing the cat 2s.
* You all seem to have sandwiches at the end of your races. And tea. (I sometimes imagine a Mrs. Doyle-like figure standing at the finish line, teapot in hand).
* It seems camera systems and RFID tags have been very slow to be introduced properly in Ireland.
* Associated with the above, organizers not distinguishing between categories for prize-giving is ridiculous. All that takes is pressing the sort button.
* There seems to be no 'template' for race flyers. You know, a pdf that goes up on the organizer/club website with the race info on it. Including payout/prizes and how deep. That part should not be a mystery.
* Finally, like you guys, we have our share of problems with races. For the most part, people are tolerant of things - after all, the people running the events tend to be volunteers.

Plastik

wav1 wrote: »

Slipstream C C announced that due to lack of sponsor Betty/Sam Darcy wouldn't be going ahead.
The Hayden race is normally in July,but this year applied for in May.
Not 100% sure but the word is its not happening
The bank holiday w/end in June has nothing in Leinster on Fri/Sat/Sun
This would be the weekend that traditionally the Swords G P would have happened,and theres no replacement event.
When compiling the calender earlier I had worries in this regard and it looks as if they are coming through.
May 19th is not really a problem as the Emyvale club have their event,which is always well supported by Leinster riders.Other 2 w/ends look like a washout lads.Ras Donegal is the option for June w/end but because it starts on the Friday is not possible for many.

Terrible. Bray were looking to organise a Greystones Crit at some point this year and were given probably the only two weekends that were unworkable for the club - one being the weekend of the Elliott.

fixie fox

dave2pvd wrote: »

You all seem to have sandwiches at the end of your races. And tea. (I sometimes image a Mrs. Doyle-like figure standing at the finish line, teapot in hand)

Bless them all!

Beasty

dave2pvd wrote: »

You all seem to have sandwiches at the end of your races. And tea. (I sometimes image a Mrs. Doyle-like figure standing at the finish line, teapot in hand).

fixie fox wrote: »

Bless them all!

I'm sure buffalo will be there waiting for you all at the end of the Orwell Randonee, silver tray in hand ...

Chips Lovell

We had a burger van one year.

dedocdude

fondriest wrote: »

It is a valid point , BUT. I think the Shaw/Collis type rider will still get promoted but what about the other 10 riders that would have gotten promoted . Yes when Lavery and Bennett were riding in the combined races they took a lot of the points along with the supervets like OLoughlin , Bracken ,etc but the idea of going away from combined races was because of riders finishing the season on 150+ points and losing other riders from the sport . The current set up is making a mockery of the "ability " grading system .
Saying that I do agree that the junior riders should be on the most part protected from the top A1's and 160 km races . It's a tough one to call for C.I. Or maybe it isn't .

Actually - you have jogged my memory on Combined races from 07/08 - A3 riders were mad complaining about those supervets back then - and after a couple of years CI changed it so vets would be upgraded as normal - A3's were happy - till now, complaining again but now its juniors that are beating them.

fondriest

dedocdude wrote: »

Actually - you have jogged my memory on Combined races from 07/08 - A3 riders were mad complaining about those supervets back then - and after a couple of years CI changed it so vets would be upgraded as normal - A3's were happy - till now, complaining again but now its juniors that are beating them.

Sure we wouldn't be happy if there wasn't something to complain about .

Pawlie

dedocdude wrote: »

A3's were happy - till now, complaining again but now its juniors that are beating them.

Where they ?,thought they where always moaning like the A4 bunch :eek:.

Easy lads now don't go getting upset

buffalo

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

We had a burger van one year.

And we will again this year! *\o/*

Slo_Rida

Pawlie wrote: »

Where they ?,thought they where always moaning like the A4 bunch :eek:.

Easy lads now don't go getting upset

I heard A3's were just thinner versions of A4's...just as moany.

Pawlie

Don't forget they got bigger ego's too :-)

fondriest

Pawlie wrote: »

Don't forget they got bigger ego's too :-)

Well they do now :-)

chakattack

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

We had a burger van one year.

No offense but it was the most disgusting and unappetising food I've ever seen post event with no other options....and I was starving! A ball of grease for the carb starved athlete. I drank the coke and left asap to get some real food. Plenty seemed happy with it, just not for me.

The food at the midway point was the best I've ever had on a sportive though so well done there.

ROK ON

^ no pleasing some.
I had a glorious burger there last year.

slow

A big bonus for Juniors in their Leaving Cert year is that A3 races are 80 to 100km maximum. So, if they get in a good winter, they keep their fitness by racing at weekends and can concentrate on their studies midweek with some short, sharp intensity training. The extra 10 or 15km in A1/A2 races requires a lot of extra endurance training, thus robbing hours from studies.

There is no money in the pro game anymore. Unless you're in the top 200 in the world. Some of our 'pro' riders on continental teams earn €8 per day. PER DAY, not per hour !!!

These young juniors, their parents and coaches know the value of education. Most of them will ride their last race before the Leaving Cert this weekend and not race in open races again until the Paddy Flanagan. Riding a stage race over the May Bank Holiday weekend is within the 6 weeks it would take for a broken bone to heal, so you'll see some of the national squad juniors on the missing list for May.

So, A3s, go out and grab those points with both hands :-)

Chips Lovell

Beasty wrote: »

That in itself brings additional logistical problems though. wav1 and the Drogheda guys put on a fantastic weekend to accomodate both open and youth racing, and Stamullen did the same the previous weekend. Other clubs/officials need to step up to plate if we are going to try and squeeze another category into an already crowded calendar (BTW, my solution would be to allow more than one club to put on events in the same Province on the same day to spread the load around a bit more)

I agree, adding junior races into the mix will create more problems for race organisers. But I think this is a good problem to have. I do think more clubs need to start running races and that at busy weekends of the year, they should try have more than one promotion in some provinces.