Could you see Man Utd going into a Liverpool style decline?

dd972

Not an ABU thread but just wondering what will happen when SAF, Giggs, Scholes, Rooney et al have gone, If you're old enough to remember the 80's and earlier the Liverpool domination seemed to be imperious and eternal and I'm still not sure that Man Utd have entirely eclipsed it, one area being the number of Euro triumphs.

Do you think Utd would maybe win the EPL more intermittently if they appointed a Guardiola or a Mourinho? or if they screwed up on their next couple of managerial appointments they could be destined for a wilderness spell a la Liverpool?

There's always the argument that in the modern era their global brand, stadium and revenue could be a bulwark against such a decline.

Chucky the tree

With their ability to generate huge money it should make a Liverpool style decline very very difficult. I certainly think them keeping pace with the number of titles they have won with Fergie as being very unlikely though.

wandatowell

Fergie is too good to even let the slightest chance of this happening


Plus the club is too good not to appoint the right man to take charge once AF steps down.


So emmmmm no.

CSF

dd972 wrote: »

Not an ABU thread but just wondering what will happen when SAF, Giggs, Scholes, Rooney et al have gone, If you're old enough to remember the 80's and earlier the Liverpool domination seemed to be imperious and eternal and I'm still not sure that Man Utd have entirely eclipsed it, one area being the number of Euro triumphs.

Do you think Utd would maybe win the EPL more intermittently if they appointed a Guardiola or a Mourinho? or if they screwed up on their next couple of managerial appointments they could be destined for a wilderness spell a la Liverpool?

There's always the argument that in the modern era their global brand, stadium and revenue could be a bulwark against such a decline.

It is hard to say what will happen until we know who is going to take on the job. If they get the next appointment right, all the structures are in place for that person to build a dynasty of their own.

niallo27

Let them enjoy tonight anyway before they turn ****e.

Xavi6

All comes down to the next appointment for me. There's a generation of fans, United or otherwise, who don't know life without Fergie and if they get it even slightly wrong there could be a serious shock for those so used to constant success.

Players have come and gone over the past twenty odd years but the manager has been constant and delivered year on year. That sort of input is going to be nearly impossible to replace.

McLeish for United :pac:

Fowler87

dd972 wrote: »

There's always the argument that in the modern era their global brand, stadium and revenue could be a bulwark against such a decline.

Ya summed it up there. Too much financial revenue for that ever to happen. Not old enough to remember pre sky sports era of football but it was a different system where the margin between success and financial rewards were non existent compared to nowadays.

Blatter

It'll be difficult to replicate the consistency that Ferguson has achieved but as said, the sheer amount of revenue the club generates will almost certainly see them remain a top club in the long term. Even if their next managerial appointment went pear shaped they'd still have an abundance of resources to recover fairly sharpish.

Madrid, Barca, Bayern, United, Chelsea, City and PSG are all almost guaranteed to be considerable forces in the long term regardless of what manager they have.

Winston Payne

Eminently possible if SAF's successor isn't the right choice. It could all follow on from there. It takes surprisingly little time to wreck a club.

kryogen

Honestly?

No

eagle eye

They have always been a huge club and been able to attract top talent. Its all about having things right at the club. When Ferguson decides to step down as manager there needs to be a clean break from the club. He cannot move upstairs as this is only going to cause problems for the new manager. This is what happened in the 70s and early 80s after Busby retired from management but then became a director for United.

If Ferguson moves into some role which allows him to remain at Old Trafford I predict things go bad at United. If he makes a clean break I predict they will remain quite successful.

kryogen

Keeping him around in the style of Bobby Charlton or something would be no problem for me, Bayern keep their elders around and it causes them no problems (in terms of on field success)

He should have nothing to do with team affairs though.

Oranage2

I couldn't see them declining outside the top 4, but winning the league won't be a giving even next season city and chelsea will have proper goes at it, though I think it'll be uniteds last chance of winning it next season before the mega rich clubs take over.

But if you look at the united team their midfield has declined so much since the giggs, keane, scholes, Beckham era, the defense isn't as good either as Rio is getting on a bit. its clear to see united can't just go out and buy the best player for the most money anymore,

upandcumming

wandatowell wrote: »

Fergie is too good to even let the slightest chance of this happening


Plus the club is too good not to appoint the right man to take charge once AF steps down.


So emmmmm no.

I'm sick to my bollocks of hearing what Fergie will or will not let happen.

Such shite.

[-0-]

As soon as Fergie retires and Roy Keane takes over.

kryogen

Ferguson has always managed to respond to and rise above the challenge laid down by whatever big spending teams comes along, it was going to be the end of Uniteds dominance when Chelsea got the $$$, it was also the beginning of City dominance when they broke their duck since they have gazillions of $$$ to spend also.

Neither happened, as long as Fergie is there United will compete, the challenge is whether the next guy in, or maybe the guy after the next guy in, can rise to these challenges aswell, they are what makes the sport interesting, the next long term manager will need a serious set of skills on him!

For all his many many many excellent qualities, Fergie is not perfect and I will welcome the new manager whenever that comes along. Maybe we will even buy a central midfielder or two then, maybe try to impose ourselves on the biggest opponents rather then just try to nullify them and nick goals here and there

jethro081

i see it vividly and often.

it makes me feel things.

secret things.

Liam O

When Fergie goes there will be a manager who is more tactically adept come in. He probably wont be as good at squad building or motivation though unless it's Jose but unless he's given time to instill his philosophy on the team and can deal with the personalities of the likes of Rooney provided they are still there, then there could be some seasons of transition. Barca went on a couple of transition seasons a few years ago and came out all the better for it.

It's all hypothetical at this stage though.

chopperbyrne

Liam O wrote: »

When Fergie goes there will be a manager who is more tactically adept come in.

This is his record in management:

St. Mirren Scottish First Division (1): 1976–77

Aberdeen Scottish Premier Division (3): 1979–80, 1983–84, 1984–85
Scottish Cup (4): 1981–82, 1982–83, 1983–84, 1985–86
Scottish League Cup (1): 1985–86
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup (1): 1982–83
UEFA Super Cup (1): 1983

Manchester United Premier League (13): 1992–93, 1993–94, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09, 2010–11, 2012–13
FA Cup (5): 1989–90, 1993–94, 1995–96, 1998–99, 2003–04
League Cup (4): 1991–92, 2005–06, 2008–09, 2009–10
FA Charity/Community Shield (10): 1990 (shared), 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011
UEFA Champions League (2): 1998–99, 2007–08
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup (1): 1990–91
UEFA Super Cup (1): 1991
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

Where do people come up with such ****e?

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Go on decline?
Yes, it will be near impossible to keep up their record of PL titles in the modern era.

Go on a decline Liverpool-esque?
I can't see it happening. They will be title contenders for the next 10 or so years regardless of the manager, simply because they are Man United. Revenue has a big part to play in it, so too does the mentality of the club, and also the mentality of visiting teams. There would want to monumental fcuk up to go the way Liverpool went.

Liam O

chopperbyrne wrote: »

This is his record in management:


Where do people come up with such ****e?

Yes, because listing achievements invalidates my point. He's been poor at times in recent seasons tactically, relying on individual brilliance over the way the team have been drilled. It's also well publicised that a lot of training ground work has been done by his assistants for a long time. When he has had very good assistants have been the times that the team has played their best stuff. That's not to say he's bad tactically, but it is his biggest weakness as a manager.

chopperbyrne

The man has won 49 trophies with three different teams. He is arguably the best manager of all time and you're suggesting he is tactically weak?

doc_17

Ferguson's successor could well up being more successful than the man himself. With FFP coming in it could limit the ability of others to challenge. And if he is better equipped to challenge in Europe it will be really depressing.

Ardent

It's entirely possible to see such a decline. You just need David Moores at the helm of the club for a couple of decades!

ThunbergsAreGo

As people have said, Utd were "lucky" to become dominnt at a time when football exploded.

Thier ability to generate revenue will prevent them from suffering a decline.

Although in "modern journalism" a decline or crises would be three years without a title

doc_17

3 years? I'd say two is the limit

RikkFlair

If Graeme Souness gets the job, yeah :pac:

ThunbergsAreGo

RikkFlair wrote: »

If Graeme Souness gets the job, yeah :pac:

One can only pray

greendom

Is there any chance that the Glazer's financial model could cause a spanner in the works in the future. There's not much sign of it at the moment

Cantona's Collars

greendom wrote: »

Is there any chance that the Glazer's financial model could cause a spanner in the works in the future. There's not much sign of it at the moment

Not a hope,the debt looks like it'll be cleared in around 2 years and their aggressive campaign of sponsorship deals is raking in the cash,the kit deal with Nike is up for renegotiation in July and a huge amount will be generated from any new deal especially now that they are champions again.

Anyone

Hard to say really, these days managers are not given any sort of time. What causes the biggest turmoil in a club is the constant turnaround of managers.

Put it this way....if Ferguson was starting off now, he wouldnt get anywhere near the amount of time he got when he started in the 80's.

Morzadec

United capitalised on their success in the 90s just when big money was coming into the game.

The game is largely about money. In general, the success you achieve is dependent on the money you have. There a few exceptions, a few other factors which, of course, can mean the difference between finishing 1st or 2nd, but in general the rich teams rise to the top.

It is possible United could go a few years without winning the title - Chelsea and City possibly have bigger spending power than them, and if they build a stable squad under a dominant manager then it's possible United trophy cabinet could go barren for a few years.

This type of slight decline is possible.

But I think it's highly unlikely they would ever drop out of the top 4 for more than a season. As far as the foreseeable future is concerned, this is just not likely at all. They will be 'there or thereabouts' as they say.

Short Answer: No

bad2dabone

It would be difficult to see united end up as a third tier side to be honest. They'd have to ****ing up consistently for years to end up like Liverpool.

Morzadec

bad2dabone wrote: »

It would be difficult to see united end up as a third tier side to be honest. They'd have to ****ing up consistently for years to end up like Liverpool.

I know we've been sh*t lately but we were still in the Premiership last time I checked!

DoctorGonzo08

Oranage2 wrote: »

I couldn't see them declining outside the top 4, but winning the league won't be a giving even next season city and chelsea will have proper goes at it, though I think it'll be uniteds last chance of winning it next season before the mega rich clubs take over.

Ye are one of the mega rich clubs and have been throught the PL. Apart from that silly statement I'd agree with the rest of your point. There could very well be a dip similar to Arsenal for instance, but with the franchise and worth of the club it will never fall further than that and it will only be a matter of time beofre they are winning leagues again.

Comparing them to Liverpool in the 80's is like comparing Apples and Oranges. The period of time that English clubs were banned from Europe really hurt Liverpool, as well as Arsenal & Everton at the time. Add to that the difference in wages, transfer fees etc and money becomes a huge difference. Liverpool's decline is the result of a completley different set of circumstances than if Utd were to do so.

Also, for those thinking that another manager is just going to come in and carry on, never mind improve after Ferguson is just being a little naive. Whoever is brought in is going to need time to bring in his philosphy, and will be under immense pressure in the shadow of what Ferguson achieved at the Club. In reality there will be a couple of attempts at replacing the manager until the right one comes along.

LuckyLloyd

25 years is a long time in any institution. I'd imagine the entire club is moulded in his image and way of thinking. The likes of Jose coming into that would send whirlwinds down the office corridors. It wouldn't matter necessarily if Jose's methods were excellent or he improved certain things - it's the fact that you would be exposing some people to change who haven't been subject to a fresh ultimate decision making perspective in a quarter century.

Seems like a poisoned chalice to me. Anything less than the League and / or a serious CL challenge is considered failure. That's the high standards that have been set.

wandatowell

upandcumming wrote: »

I'm sick to my bollocks of hearing what Fergie will or will not let happen.

Such shite.

relax bro

A2LUE42

Blatter wrote: »

It'll be difficult to replicate the consistency that Ferguson has achieved but as said, the sheer amount of revenue the club generates will almost certainly see them remain a top club in the long term. Even if their next managerial appointment went pear shaped they'd still have an abundance of resources to recover fairly sharpish.

Madrid, Barca, Bayern, United, Chelsea, City and PSG are all almost guaranteed to be considerable forces in the long term regardless of what manager they have.

Chelsea will be in meltdown when all the interest free loans are called in. It only takes a few years of poor management for any club to fade, or if other clubs get a huge injection of cash, the mega rich can become the also rans.

Augmerson

There have been wilderness years before for United but not in the same context as where they currently stand. I think they will certainly be contenders even without Ferguson in the years to come but may not see success across the board like before.

It'll only be when Ferguson is gone that we will realise how good he was. Nobody is going to replicate that success. I think some United fans will be very disappointed and disaffected if a new manager doesn't take off to a successful reign and will start asking serious questions but that's only natural. They will have to stick behind whoever gets appointed and give him 100% for a couple of years.

There can be no way that a multiple manager season like the situation with Chelsea is allowed to develop where if you don't do well you are out. That cannot happen but I doubt it would anyway, different setup at United.

mike65

Well Utd spent nearly three decades as a drinking club that won some FA Cups so they do know what its like to fade into mild irrelevance but will that happen again? Unlikely. Whoever succeeds Fergie will need to be fairly inept to seriously damage the club - unforeseen ownership issues are more likely to do it.

ThunbergsAreGo

Augmerson wrote: »

There have been wilderness years before for United but not in the same context as where they currently stand. I think they will certainly be contenders even without Ferguson in the years to come but may not see success across the board like before.

It'll only be when Ferguson is gone that we will realise how good he was. Nobody is going to replicate that success. I think some United fans will be very disappointed and disaffected if a new manager doesn't take off to a successful reign and will start asking serious questions but that's only natural. They will have to stick behind whoever gets appointed and give him 100% for a couple of years.

There can be no way that a multiple manager season like the situation with Chelsea is allowed to develop where if you don't do well you are out. That cannot happen but I doubt it would anyway, different setup at United.

There is much people can criticise Ferguson for, but the mentality he has instilled throughout the club is incredible. How many of his players have gone on to be greater after they have left? O Shea, Brown etc, all hold multiple titles

It will be hard to replace

Looking at the trophies won by Liverpool the last 20 years it's not all that bad Plenty of clubs would only love half of it.

Football is different now, tons more money in the game. As long as Fergie is there they will be challenging for leagues . When he is gone there may well be a blip but I wouldn't expect them to fall away at all.

Iang87

wandatowell wrote: »

Fergie is too good to even let the slightest chance of this happening


Plus the club is too good not to appoint the right man to take charge once AF steps down.


So emmmmm no.

did you even read the op.

In 20 years time fergie will be probably dead, how would he stop that then.


Personally I would love to see it, although with clubs being such financial superpowers these days unfortunately they wont be allowed to fail

Will I Amnt

Iang87 wrote: »

did you even read the op.

In 20 years time fergie will be probably dead, how would he stop that then?

Zombie Fergie???

Iang87

cambo2008 wrote: »

Zombie Fergie???

to most of us he is the reincarnation of satan anyway

Augmerson

cambo2008 wrote: »

Zombie Fergie???

*crouched figure against a darkened skyline speaks with a Scottish accent whilst he sharpens sticks* The day will come, aye, when Fergie rises to feast upon the living and drag his mangled corpse once more in search of European and domestic glory....but I'll be ready *figure rises up, it's....DAVID MOYES!!*

Sappy404

dd972 wrote: »

Not an ABU thread but just wondering what will happen when SAF, Giggs, Scholes, Rooney et al have gone, If you're old enough to remember the 80's and earlier the Liverpool domination seemed to be imperious and eternal and I'm still not sure that Man Utd have entirely eclipsed it, one area being the number of Euro triumphs.

Do you think Utd would maybe win the EPL more intermittently if they appointed a Guardiola or a Mourinho? or if they screwed up on their next couple of managerial appointments they could be destined for a wilderness spell a la Liverpool?

There's always the argument that in the modern era their global brand, stadium and revenue could be a bulwark against such a decline.

It depends entirely on whether the Glazers (or any future owners) continue to provide transfer funds year in year out. With the medium/long-term state of the club's finances, they're kind of on a slippery slope, but continued investment in the squad has kept them where they are. If they can keep it up long enough to sort out the debt, or sell the club to someone who'll cancel it, they'll be fine.

Pj!

I think the one positive of United's owners is that they will let the footballing people make the footballing decisions when it comes to Fergie stepping down.

We've seen so many owners cock up at replacing managers in the last few years.

Sappy404

Pj! wrote: »

I think the one positive of United's owners is that they will let the footballing people make the footballing decisions when it comes to Fergie stepping down.

We've seen so many owners cock up at replacing managers in the last few years.

Is there an indication that they will?

Pj!

Sappy404 wrote: »

Is there an indication that they will?

What's your question sappy? Is there an indication that they will let the footballing people make the footballing decisions or is there an indication that they will cock up?

Sappy404

Pj! wrote: »

What's your question sappy? Is there an indication that they will let the footballing people make the footballing decisions or is there an indication that they will cock up?

Is there an indication that they'll "let the footballing people make the footballing decisions when it comes to Fergie stepping down"?