Could you see Man Utd going into a Liverpool style decline?

Pj!

The high chances are that United will no longer be as dominant as they have been for so long.

But it's difficult to imagine a massive decline. Going to be a hell of a lot of pressure on David Moyes.

Cantona's Collars

No hope,the building blocks for the future have been well laid by Fergie,any manager who comes in already has a great young squad in place.

Ganymede Glow

zerks wrote: »

No hope,the building blocks for the future have been well laid by Fergie,any manager who comes in already has a great young squad in place.

Only takes a couple of bad decisions to unravel that. I'd say they're safe for now though

Allyall

I think it's inevitable.
Fans will be wanting to blame somebody when things aren't going the way they want it. Media will jump on the bandwagon, the Owners with Ferguson gone, will be able to hire and fire.

People aren't really realising how important Ferguson is, how much control he has at the club. No manager will ever have that again. He is Manchester Utd. He'll still be running things for a while, and he has left a decent team behind, Zaha and other players coming next season already.

But how long will the next Manager be given to prove himself? How much of a say will he actually have in the day to day managing? You can bet your house Ferguson will still be very heavily involved.
The decline will have to happen, because one day, a manager is going to be building a team on his own. When he tries that, there will be players that think they're too big to listen etc.. There will be hiccups, bad buys, players that don't fit.. So many things to consider.. and when that starts to happen, they will finish outside the top four.

Liverpool style decline -> 8th in the Premiership is the lowest they've finished since their 'glory days', and that was in 93-94, and they look to match that this season.

When Ferguson is gone, and his team are gone behind him, what then? To find another Manager of his caliber may not happen again for a long long time, and even if it did, it wouldn't necessarily be Utd that would find them.

Pj!

Allyall wrote: »

I think it's inevitable.
Fans will be wanting to blame somebody when things aren't going the way they want it. Media will jump on the bandwagon, the Owners with Ferguson gone, will be able to hire and fire.

People aren't really realising how important Ferguson is, how much control he has at the club. No manager will ever have that again. He is Manchester Utd. He'll still be running things for a while, and he has left a decent team behind, Zaha and other players coming next season already.

But how long will the next Manager be given to prove himself? How much of a say will he actually have in the day to day managing? You can bet your house Ferguson will still be very heavily involved.
The decline will have to happen, because one day, a manager is going to be building a team on his own. When he tries that, there will be players that think they're too big to listen etc.. There will be hiccups, bad buys, players that don't fit.. So many things to consider.. and when that starts to happen, they will finish outside the top four.

Liverpool style decline -> 8th in the Premiership is the lowest they've finished since their 'glory days', and that was in 93-94, and they look to match that this season.

When Ferguson is gone, and his team are gone behind him, what then? To find another Manager of his caliber may not happen again for a long long time, and even if it did, it wouldn't necessarily be Utd that would find them.

Fergie will be still around. Obviously not in the way he has been but he'll be there and still a part of things.

gnfnrhead

They will always be there or thereabouts. Worst decline would be a year or two without winning much while the new manager gets to grips with things.

Allyall

Pj! wrote: »

Fergie will be still around. Obviously not in the way he has been but he'll be there and still a part of things.

That's what i said..

You can bet your house Ferguson will still be very heavily involved.
The decline will have to happen, because one day, a manager is going to be building a team on his own.

Liam O

Allyall wrote: »

That's what i said..

Do you think Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich etc. are going to go into a decline when they next change their manager (probably at least 2 out of 3 of them this season)? Just so I know.

ThirdMan

Liam O wrote: »

Do you think Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich etc. are going to go into a decline when they next change their manager (probably at least 2 out of 3 of them this season)? Just so I know.

I agree. They say money doesn't buy success. But it can buy the best players and the best managers. There might be a few rocky years ahead, but eventually it'll be business as usual. That's a damning indictment of the modern game, but it's the truth.

weldoninhio

Liam O wrote: »

Do you think Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich etc. are going to go into a decline when they next change their manager (probably at least 2 out of 3 of them this season)? Just so I know.

Madrid, Barca and Bayern all have much better teams than United and have all changed coaches a few times over the past few years so there isn't a "Fergie style" standard in place throughout the entire club. So no.

Allyall

Liam O wrote: »

Do you think Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich etc. are going to go into a decline when they next change their manager (probably at least 2 out of 3 of them this season)? Just so I know.

I thought we were talking about Manchester Utd, who have had the same Manager for the last 26 years, and he controls the club, and will they go into a decline when he goes..

I don't even know how to begin to compare what is essentially a 2 horse league, to Manchester Utd's run under Ferguson.

But just so you know, No, i don't think that Barca or Real Madrid will go into a decline, even if they lost their team and had to rebuild 7 or 8 this season.

Bayern Munich, also incomparable.


Ferguson did this pretty much on his own. Nobody else has achieved the same. It puts an incredible amount of pressure on the first person to take control on their own.

It puts an incredible amount of pressure on the next manager, but at least Ferguson will still be there.

Pudders

Liam O wrote: »

Do you think Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich etc. are going to go into a decline when they next change their manager (probably at least 2 out of 3 of them this season)? Just so I know.

Real and Barca have no competition other than each other in terms of money.

Bayern other than Dortmund ditto.

Man United have at least 3, could argue 4/5 others snapping at their heels. And the next moneybags buyer will look at another premiership club.

So I actually couldn;t see Bayern, Barca or Madrid going into serious decline but it could happen to Man United because they face much more significnat and richer competition than those.

djPSB

I don't think Fergie will too bothered about what happens from here on.

The more the next guy fails, the better Fergie looks.

CSF

djPSB wrote: »

I don't think Fergie will too bothered about what happens from here on.

The more the next guy fails, the better Fergie looks.

That is pure rubbish.

yabadabado

some lads are really clutching at straws here.With Uniteds set up and ability to generate money they will be a successful team for some time yet.

Marty McFly

No one can guarantee they will be successful or go into decline but to claim with the size of the club it can't happen to United is plain stupid, Liverpool still have financial clout but can't get it right at the moment.

Chelsea have spent loads yet are battling for 3rd 4th spot this season.

They cannot be compared to Madrid, Barcelona or Munich why because if you play in them leagues they really are the only teams to play for there the team to aspire to and rarely does anyone challenge that.


In the EPL you have Chelsea, City, and United who can all outbid each other in wages and transfers, then you have Arsenal who are starting to get more finances available and are chomping at the bit to get back up there, along with Liverpool and Spurs who have spent vast amounts.

There could be a knock on effect from Fergie retiring a hangover almost from huge changes at the club it really all boils down to how the club handles it and who they appoint, its more than likely we wont see United go into decline but to say its not possible is naive.

The_Kew_Tour

You can never say never.

We could become the new Leeds.

Moyes could be a great. League titles won't come as often I guess. Maybe in Europe our fortunes go little better.

It's very hard to know. Deep down I think Utd will be just fine.

messinkiapina

Nobody would have imagined 20 years ago that Liverpool would be where they are now. To be fair, United today are a much better run club than Liverpool were when they fell from grace. Still, in a period of transition if you make a few bad decisions you can get caught in a downward spiral, there are a big couple of years ahead for United.

Allyall

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

It's very hard to know. Deep down I think hope Utd will be just fine.

True.. You can't predict it. They could end up dominating for another 20 years.

One of the other reasons i think it's so different to Spain and Germany, is that those clubs mentioned have been set up differently and for a long time, have many established people behind them (People that grew up with those clubs, and genuinely want, and know what is best for those clubs, and the type of game they play). Football as a business in the UK is relatively new, so Americans/Saudi Businessmen/Russian Billionaires etc.. are buying clubs, and relying on their own judgement (of which, in the case of the Americans and Saudi lads, they know nothing to little about), and their boards judgement to pick the right people to advise them who to appoint where. Then those appointed have to be doing a damn good job, and in a relatively short period of time, or they could get the boot pretty quick.

It's all fairly complicated.. :rolleyes:

I think Brendan Rodgers may have gotten fairly lucky, in that he was appointed to Liverpool at a time when the both the fans and the owners wanted someone to spend a decent amount of time at the club, and have a proper shot at it, rather then continuing to have a manager a season.

Time will tell..

OldmanMondeo

I can see it getting worse for them. Yes they are generating a lot of money, but they owe a hell of a lot more. Fergie was there that long that the Glaziers knew the fan back lash, especially after putting so much debt on the club, would end their ownership.

Should they pick the wrong manager, they could quite easily slip down the league table and be in the position Arsenal are currently in, barley able to get into CL. Utd without CL would cost them dearly.

The fans there will expect to be challenging for the league and CL every year, new manager comes in and doesn't deliver straight away could cause big problems. When Fergie took over, the money at stake was not as big or important as it is now.

As a Liverpool fan, I do hope they fall off our perch...

Paul Tergat

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

I can see it getting worse for them. Yes they are generating a lot of money, but they owe a hell of a lot more. Fergie was there that long that the Glaziers knew the fan back lash, especially after putting so much debt on the club, would end their ownership.

Should they pick the wrong manager, they could quite easily slip down the league table and be in the position Arsenal are currently in, barley able to get into CL. Utd without CL would cost them dearly.

The fans there will expect to be challenging for the league and CL every year, new manager comes in and doesn't deliver straight away could cause big problems. When Fergie took over, the money at stake was not as big or important as it is now.

As a Liverpool fan, I do hope they fall off our perch...

Not yours anymore chief!

Courtesy Flush

dd972 wrote: »

Not an ABU thread but just wondering what will happen when SAF, Giggs, Scholes, Rooney et al have gone, If you're old enough to remember the 80's and earlier the Liverpool domination seemed to be imperious and eternal and I'm still not sure that Man Utd have entirely eclipsed it, one area being the number of Euro triumphs.

Do you think Utd would maybe win the EPL more intermittently if they appointed a Guardiola or a Mourinho? or if they screwed up on their next couple of managerial appointments they could be destined for a wilderness spell a la Liverpool?

There's always the argument that in the modern era their global brand, stadium and revenue could be a bulwark against such a decline.

Any team can go into a decline. United in particular are not in a great position financially, given the debt on the club. They have great revenue but with Fergie gone and success no longer guaranteed there could easily be a barren spell

OldmanMondeo

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Not yours anymore chief!

I know, and after that smelly bunch, we will have to get a new one...

enfant terrible

Liam O wrote: »

Do you think Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich etc. are going to go into a decline when they next change their manager (probably at least 2 out of 3 of them this season)? Just so I know.

Well Barcelona did go five seasons without winning the league from 99-04

Marty McFly

Looks like Rooney could be following Ferguson and getting the hell out of Manchester United reports flying around he has handed in a transfer request.

Moyes could have a re building job on his hands first season in charge, I'd imagine Giggs and Scholes will be call it quits aswell.

OctavarIan

Marty McFly wrote: »

Looks like Rooney could be following Ferguson and getting the hell out of Manchester United reports flying around he has handed in a transfer request.

Moyes could have a re building job on his hands first season in charge, I'd imagine Giggs and Scholes will be call it quits aswell.

He handed one in a couple of weeks ago, he was told he wouldn't be going anywhere.

What will happen from July 1st is up in the air. Moyes might assess things differently.

Will I Amnt

Marty McFly wrote: »

Looks like Rooney could be following Ferguson and getting the hell out of Manchester United reports flying around he has handed in a transfer request.

Moyes could have a re building job on his hands first season in charge, I'd imagine Giggs and Scholes will be call it quits aswell.

:rolleyes:

Marty McFly

cambo2008 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

:pac::pac: is there a reason your rolling your eyes? Stupid post.

Is Ferguson not retiring? Yes, are there wide reports Rooney has handed in a transfer request? Yes. Therefore what I said is true so go roll your eyes somewhere else or at least make your post worthwhile we can all roll our eyes :rolleyes:.

Will I Amnt

Marty McFly wrote: »

:pac::pac: is there a reason your rolling your eyes? Stupid post.

Is Ferguson not retiring? Yes, are there wide reports Rooney has handed in a transfer request? Yes. Therefore what I said is true so go roll your eyes somewhere else or at least make your post worthwhile we can all roll our eyes :rolleyes:.

Your post didn't deserve anything more.
Here have another :rolleyes: :pac:

Marty McFly

cambo2008 wrote: »

Your post didn't deserve anything more.
Here have another :rolleyes: :pac:

The bit you highlighted is a figure of speech :rolleyes::cool:, some United fans sure are a sensitive bunch or just stupid going by your last two posts so far im not sure which.

At least the first response to my post was good and gave me the facts. Good to see some United fans are capable of words not just rolleyes.

The_Kew_Tour

The one plus is that United record with Scottish managers is handy enough. ;-)

Will I Amnt

Marty McFly wrote: »

The bit you highlighted is a figure of speech :rolleyes::cool:, some United fans sure are a sensitive bunch or just stupid going by your last two posts so far im not sure which.

At least the first response to my post was good and gave me the facts. Good to see some United fans are capable of words not just rolleyes.

Make up your mind, are you calling me sensitive or stupid?
One of them could get you in trouble...

Fergie is retiring from his managerial position and taking on another role at the club. He's not getting the hell out of Manchester United. That's what I was rolling my eyes at.

Marty McFly

cambo2008 wrote: »

Make up your mind, are you calling me sensitive or stupid?
One of them could get you in trouble...

Fergie is retiring from his managerial position and taking on another role at the club. He's not getting the hell out of Manchester United. That's what I was rolling my eyes at.

Oh I know one of them could get me in trouble, hence why I said im not sure yet which one of them it is .


Well see now from what I've read he was retiring and didn't mention him moving upstairs wasn't aware of that, see amazing what can be achieved when you use words and communicate instead of trying to be smart and rolling eyes around the place and nit picking .

Well then Ill rephrase my original sentiment to say it now appears aswell as Ferguson retiring from his managerial role it looks like Rooney want's out and Moyes could have a bit of a rebuilding job on his hands fresh out the traps. It could be an interesting few months at Manchester United.

Will I Amnt

Marty McFly wrote: »

Oh I know one of them could get me in trouble, hence why I said im not sure yet which one of them it is .


Well see now from what I've read he was retiring and didn't mention him moving upstairs wasn't aware of that, see amazing what can be achieved when you use words and communicate instead of trying to be smart and rolling eyes around the place and nit picking .

Well then Ill rephrase my original sentiment to say it now appears aswell as Ferguson retiring from his managerial role it looks like Rooney want's out and Moyes could have a bit of a rebuilding job on his hands fresh out the traps. It could be an interesting few months at Manchester United.

Fair enough.

Now see what happens when you phrase things a bit better and closer to the truth

Mikeyt086

Marty McFly wrote: »

:pac::pac: is there a reason your rolling your eyes? Stupid post.

It was his reaction to your pathetic attempt at implaying Fergie wanted to "get the hell out of United". As if he is jumping a sinking ship, instead of riding off into the sunset after delivering title #20.

Understandably fans of other teams are licking their lips at the prospect of Manchester United losing arguably the greatest manager of all time, but the attempts to make the situation worse than it actually is, is nothing more than clutching at straws. Oh no, Rooney wants out! He has flattered to deceive and something has to change, either his attitude or his club. He is no longer top dog and it looks as if he doesn't want to fight to re-gain that status. Oh no Giggs and Scholes are off! Giggs is hit and miss these days and when did Paul Scholes last play? Both club legends, both have had an ever shrinking role in the recent successes of the club.

It's not quite the disaster some clearly want it to be.

Mr.Nice Guy

I liked Gab Marcotti's answer to this question on ESPN Press Pass:

'Only if they appoint Graeme Souness.'

Allyall

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Understandably fans of other teams are licking their lips at the prospect of Manchester United losing arguably the greatest manager of all time, but the attempts to make the situation worse than it actually is, is nothing more than clutching at straws. Oh no, Rooney wants out! He has flattered to deceive and something has to change, either his attitude or his club. He is no longer top dog and it looks as if he doesn't want to fight to re-gain that status. Oh no Giggs and Scholes are off! Giggs is hit and miss these days and when did Paul Scholes last play? Both club legends, both have had an ever shrinking role in the recent successes of the club.

It's not quite the disaster some clearly want it to be.

It's in the thread title...

Anyway, As a fan of another team, i am not licking my lips at the prospect of Utd losing Ferguson - Which, by the way, i don't think is what is happening, (not by a long shot).

I'd have much preferred to win, with him at the helm, as (as you quite rightly stated) he is arguably the greatest manager of all time..
Any defeats utd suffer next season, or the season after, will probably be met with some excuse about the Manager, (His choice of team/style of play/substitutes etc.) when there is a full uninjured squad, or the majority of one.

Not that the other team could be better. It will probably be an attempt to take the shine off the win for the other team.

But all i will say to that will be, "Welcome to reality.."

One thing is for certain, if the new manager doesn't gel immediately, (depending on how much influence he will have with Ferguson still there)
Losses and draws will be a tough pill to swallow for the fans. Every loss, every draw the Media, and fans alike will be scrutinising every bit of the match. Some fans will panic, and start to call for his head, the media will do their normal circus, but probably more so, because of whose shoes he is filling and what club he is managing. I don't envy him for that.

It would take a special kind of person to sit back and be Ferguson's puppet, so i am still not sure how much "authority" the new manager will have.
But if he has full reign, He will not be as successful as Ferguson. *The odds on that must be a million to one.
I wouldn't say Ferguson would want to chop and change Managers either, as he has seen the damage that can do to clubs. That numpty down in Chelsea is the only one that hasn't.


*After thinking about it, maybe not. It takes a good manager to spot a good manager. Ferguson has obviously seen something in the next manager.
If (for example) Moyes is appointed, he could be Fergusons last great/greatest signing for the club.

Marty McFly

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

It was his reaction to your pathetic attempt at implaying Fergie wanted to "get the hell out of United". As if he is jumping a sinking ship, instead of riding off into the sunset after delivering title #20.

Understandably fans of other teams are licking their lips at the prospect of Manchester United losing arguably the greatest manager of all time, but the attempts to make the situation worse than it actually is, is nothing more than clutching at straws. Oh no, Rooney wants out! He has flattered to deceive and something has to change, either his attitude or his club. He is no longer top dog and it looks as if he doesn't want to fight to re-gain that status. Oh no Giggs and Scholes are off! Giggs is hit and miss these days and when did Paul Scholes last play? Both club legends, both have had an ever shrinking role in the recent successes of the club.

It's not quite the disaster some clearly want it to be.

:pac::pac::pac::pac: ok its confirmed you united fans are an awfully sensitive bunch it was a figure of speech nothing more nothing less was implied by it get grip of yourselves for christ sake :pac:.

I never said United was a sinking ship nor did I imply Ferguson was getting out of one :pac:, I have nothing but respect for Ferguson as a manager the best manager the EPL has seen and and unbelievable motivator of players he has gotten the best out of some very average teams, That may be true about Scholes, Giggs and Rooney but with three players leaving are you saying he wont have to bring in his own players to replace them? which mean a bit of a re building process? Which was was what I implied, nor did I state it was a disaster anywhere in my post.

I'd hate to have a look at the United thread if this is the way some United fans in here post regulary.

Winston Payne

There was a few calling for SAF's head after we lost to Spurs earlier on this season. There will always be the likes of them.

Mikeyt086

Marty McFly wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac::pac: ok its confirmed you united fans are an awfully sensitive bunch it was a figure of speech nothing more nothing less was implied by it get grip of yourselves for christ sake :pac:.

I never said United was a sinking ship nor did I imply Ferguson was getting out of one :pac:, I have nothing but respect for Ferguson as a manager the best manager the EPL has seen and and unbelievable motivator of players he has gotten the best out of some very average teams, That may be true about Scholes, Giggs and Rooney but with three players leaving are you saying he wont have to bring in his own players to replace them? which mean a bit of a re building process? Which was was what I implied, nor did I state it was a disaster anywhere in my post.

I'd hate to have a look at the United thread if this is the way some United fans in here post regulary.

I'm sorry I couldn't decypher your code of smilies to find what you actually meant. That's the thing about the internet, if you write something, I will take it at face value as that's all I can take it as. Read the sentence "Rooney will join Ferguson in getting the hell out of Manchester United" and see how it looks?

Although I did enjoy the generalisation that all United fans need to get a grip. Always a classic. I didn't realise my gripe with your post was on behalf of the Man United supporters trust. :pac::pac::cool::pac::P:pac:

Marty McFly

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

I'm sorry I couldn't decypher your code of smilies to find what you actually meant. That's the thing about the internet, if you write something, I will take it at face value as that's all I can take it as. Read the sentence "Rooney will join Ferguson in getting the hell out of Manchester United" and see how it looks?

Although I did enjoy the generalisation that all United fans need to get a grip. Always a classic. I didn't realise my gripe with your post was on behalf of the Man United supporters trust. :pac::pac::cool::pac::P:pac:

There was no smilies in the original post , at face value to me it still looks ok its a simple figure of speech that you and another poster decided to read into way to much and got your knickers in a twist over.

If you had read my previous post in the thread or hell even read the following posts after that one you would have realised that was not my intention, instead of jumping the gun.

Nope but considering you were the second one to come in and get your knickers so easily in a knot over a simple figure of speech it doesn't hold well for United fans obviously not all are as sensitive about Ferguson retiring and can still have rational discussions. Im done since you still seem hell bent on that one single line and haven't actually addressed any football topics.

Mikeyt086

Marty McFly wrote: »

There was no smilies in the original post , at face value to me it still looks ok its a simple figure of speech that you and another poster decided to read into way to much and got your knickers in a twist over.

If you had read my previous post in the thread or hell even read the following posts after that one you would have realised that was not my intention, instead of jumping the gun.

Nope but considering you were the second one to come in and get your knickers so easily in a knot over a simple figure of speech it doesn't hold well for United fans obviously not all are as sensitive about Ferguson retiring and can still have rational discussions. Im done since you still seem hell bent on that one single line and haven't actually addressed any football topics.

.

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Oh no, Rooney wants out! He has flattered to deceive and something has to change, either his attitude or his club. He is no longer top dog and it looks as if he doesn't want to fight to re-gain that status. Oh no Giggs and Scholes are off! Giggs is hit and miss these days and when did Paul Scholes last play? Both club legends, both have had an ever shrinking role in the recent successes of the club.

It's not quite the disaster some clearly want it to be.

"I'm done."

grenache

We are in the era of megabucks, mass communication through satellite television and social media and the ability to tap into huge revenue streams through large foreign fanbase. United have made huge use of all of these and are now a much bigger and much different beast than to the club they were during the early 70s when their last decline took hold. What this all means is that a Liverpool style decline is improbable.

They may not keep on winning at the same rate, but they'll be the main challengers every season, of that you can be sure.