How do YOU teach Irish - for secondary school múinteoirí Gaeilge

halfmoon123

For all those Irish teachers for sec schools out there, how do you go about teaching Irish in school? Do you teach it through English or do you do your classes all through Irish?

Afollower

My son is studying for Jnr Cert and his Hons Irish teacher teaches through English which is just crazy - please please please teachers, if you're teaching Irish, speak Irish!!

tomissex

halfmoon123 wrote: »

For all those Irish teachers for sec schools out there, how do you go about teaching Irish in school? Do you teach it through English or do you do your classes all through Irish?

Through Irish but a touch on English sometimes for harder grammar aspects. I also reward the students for their use of Irish in the classroom - a raffle ticket each time (big raffle at the end of year for easter eggs and stuff) and a Gaeilgeoir of the week competition. Works very well, students really like it

derb12

Afollower wrote: »

My son is studying for Jnr Cert and his Hons Irish teacher teaches through English which is just crazy - please please please teachers, if you're teaching Irish, speak Irish!!

I am not an Irish teacher - but I don't agree that it is crazy to teach irish through english. I learnt french through english and we did pretty well.
A pet hate of mine is the way that Irish text books have no english in them. All other languages explain the grammar through english and give translations at the back. I think Irish teachers have a tough job, with little help from home in most cases - but making the book all Irish means that parents can't help their kids at all. It's sad how many kids don't know what tuiseal ginideach or modh coinniollach actually mean.

Samantha4

Yeah, I totally agree with you there - bring on some of the explanations in English with some interesting ways of explainin' it and the kids would have it in less than a week. Dead easy. Teach it like maths, or like science, where they're allowed make mistakes. And what the hell if they do. That's how scientists learn their trade.

Caiseoipe19

derb12 wrote: »

I am not an Irish teacher - but I don't agree that it is crazy to teach irish through english. I learnt french through english and we did pretty well.
A pet hate of mine is the way that Irish text books have no english in them. All other languages explain the grammar through english and give translations at the back. I think Irish teachers have a tough job, with little help from home in most cases - but making the book all Irish means that parents can't help their kids at all. It's sad how many kids don't know what tuiseal ginideach or modh coinniollach actually mean.

Not being smart, but the vast majority of words come across in second level could be found in a dictionary or on focal.ie or the likes.

To the OP, I think it obviously all depends on the class and the levels of Irish they already have. You don't want to have some weak students falling behind because they haven't a clue what you're saying, but at the same time, I think generally the more the students hear and interact with the language the better.

@tomissex I like the idea of raffle tickets as an incentive...might just try that myself sometime!

Caiseoipe19

Samantha4 wrote: »

Yeah, I totally agree with you there - bring on some of the explanations in English with some interesting ways of explainin' it and the kids would have it in less than a week. Dead easy. Teach it like maths, or like science, where they're allowed make mistakes. And what the hell if they do. That's how scientists learn their trade.

That's just ridiculous. Are you an Irish teacher may I ask? And learning Maths/Science and learning a language are very different things.

Afollower

derb12 wrote: »

I think Irish teachers have a tough job, with little help from home in most cases - but making the book all Irish means that parents can't help their kids at all. It's sad how many kids don't know what tuiseal ginideach or modh coinniollach actually mean.

I'm not a teacher and I do believe that teaching teens is a tough job and I'm not just referring to teachers of Irish.

However, I think that by Junior Cert year, particulary in Honours class, the teacher should be conducting the class primarily in Irish and encouraging the students to use the language as much as possible in class.

Learning French or German through English is a totally different argument - after all, our children have been learning Irish since they started in Jnr Infants eleven years ago and if they have the ability to do Hons Irish then they must have a reasonable grasp of the language.

I'm not sure what you mean by the comment "with little help from home" as the discussion is about the use of English/Irish in the classroom.

derb12

Cygnus wrote: »

Not being smart, but the vast majority of words come across in second level could be found in a dictionary or on focal.ie or the likes.

Firstly, you can't always just look up words in Irish as the spelling my change with additions of seimhús and urús. Secondly - why should they have to look them up? Surely the approach should be to not put obstacles in the way of the students themselves or their parents who are trying to help them.

Afollower wrote: »

Learning French or German through English is a totally different argument - after all, our children have been learning Irish since they started in Jnr Infants eleven years ago and if they have the ability to do Hons Irish then they must have a reasonable grasp of the language.

I think that statement summarises the main problems with the approach to Irish in schools. About 50% of students take Irish at higher level in the JC, even though they have been learning the language for 11 years by then. Around 70% of students take French at higher level even though they have been learning it for only 3 years. Something is amiss here and it can only be the approach taken in the teaching and learning of the two languages. The extra 20% who have the ability for HL French surely have the ability for HL Irish so why are they opting out? Personally, what I see with my students, is that they lose touch with the language at some point (usually before secondary school) and then there is no way back in, as the books give them no real guidance unless they are prepared to go and look up every word.

Afollower wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by the comment "with little help from home" as the discussion is about the use of English/Irish in the classroom.

Pardon me. There is obviously no link whatsoever between parental support and student achievement ... oh no wait
Okay, so to make my point more pertinent to the classroom - if I was teaching Irish, I would give my students notes and explanations around the grammar etc that are in English.

Rochester

Surely to goodness there is an industry norm. I can't believe what I am reading here. The fact that each poster who has teaching experience has a different way of getting the subject across (or not) is staggering. What a joke.

Afollower

derb12 wrote: »

Firstly, you can't always just look up words in Irish as the spelling my change with additions of seimhús and urús. Secondly - why should they have to look them up? Surely the approach should be to not put obstacles in the way of the students themselves or their parents who are trying to help them.


I think that statement summarises the main problems with the approach to Irish in schools. About 50% of students take Irish at higher level in the JC, even though they have been learning the language for 11 years by then. Around 70% of students take French at higher level even though they have been learning it for only 3 years. Something is amiss here and it can only be the approach taken in the teaching and learning of the two languages. The extra 20% who have the ability for HL French surely have the ability for HL Irish so why are they opting out? Personally, what I see with my students, is that they lose touch with the language at some point (usually before secondary school) and then there is no way back in, as the books give them no real guidance unless they are prepared to go and look up every word.

Pardon me. There is obviously no link whatsoever between parental support and student achievement ... oh no wait
Okay, so to make my point more pertinent to the classroom - if I was teaching Irish, I would give my students notes and explanations around the grammar etc that are in English.

Your first statement regarding not being able to look up words because of the possible addition of seimhús or urús - if the Foclóir won't do it for them, there's always Google Translate, although I'm sure the Muinteoir wouldn't approve of that particular tool.

"Why should they have to look them up?"
You are joking, right? In case you're not - because that it what one does when one encounters a word in any language which one does not understand.

Maybe the fact that 20% (your statistic) less students opt for Hons Irish than Hons French is because of the lazy teaching methods employed by some Irish teachers.

I never said there is no need for parental support and I fully agree that such support and encouragement enhances student performance, however, no amount of parental support makes up for poor teaching practice.

derb12

Afollower wrote: »

"Why should they have to look them up?"
You are joking, right? In case you're not - because that it what one does when one encounters a word in any language which one does not understand.

No I am not joking. For the many students who have bugger all Irish, having to look up every single word of your irish text book is a daunting task. We either want them to learn the language or we don't. So why not facilitate their learning by giving them accessible explanations. I am looking at LC students in my school who just did their Irish orals and who can't even say the words "irish book" in Irish.

Afollower wrote: »

Maybe the fact that 20% (your statistic) less students opt for Hons Irish than Hons French is because of the lazy teaching methods employed by some Irish teachers.

I looked up the statistic in the chief examiners' reports. I don't buy that 1/5 of Irish teachers are lazy. They'd have to be exceptionally lazy to negate the 8 year head start they supposedly have on their French teaching colleagues. I believe that the overall approach to Irish language teaching is all wrong and I think that having 0% English in the text books and classrooms is a major factor.

Look, I've said my bit as it is something i feel strongly about. I'm not an Irish teacher, so by the title of the thread my input isn't requested here anyway. Let us agree to disagree.

spurious

A few posts here are dancing close to being against the forum charter.

If you haven't already, please read it.

Let's keep it on topic with relevant helpful replies, thanks.

drvantramp

Rochester wrote: »

Surely to goodness there is an industry norm. I can't believe what I am reading here. The fact that each poster who has teaching experience has a different way of getting the subject across (or not) is staggering. What a joke.

No , because children or teenagers are not an industry.
People believing education is an industry - now that is a joke.

It is not for example a " 9 out of 10 cats prefer whiskas" scenario.

spurious

I know my Irish teaching colleagues try their best to have an 'Irish only' policy in their classes, but ours have two levels in the one class, sometimes with children whose English is poor and who are exempt from Irish sitting in the back.
It's not all 'Dead Poet's Society'.

Samantha4

Cygnus wrote: »

That's just ridiculous. Are you an Irish teacher may I ask? And learning Maths/Science and learning a language are very different things.

Dia's Muire dhuit, a Cygnus, a chara.
Yes, you are more than welcome to ask, and I am happy to answer.
I have taught Irish from National School to postgraduate University level, and have published books on the matter. (Note: can I expect some cynicism ?!)I'm happy to engage with people who are serious about discussing Irish, and who are open-minded, so this is all I will say on the matter. But if you read carefully what I wrote you will see that I qualified my statement regarding the teaching of Irish vis a vis the teaching of Maths/Science. There are similarities between the techniques and approach that can be used in helping students to get a grasp on the principles in Maths and Science, and those that can be used to teach a language, for example, Irish. I didn't say that teaching Irish IS teaching Maths.
I could ask 'Are you an Irish teacher yourself,' but I think I may know the answer.
All the best
Samantha4

CookieMonster.x

I'm in 6th year and my teacher teaches through Irish. She adds in the odd English word or translates to English. I think that's the best way to teach. My classes are mixed ability and a lot of the weaker people say that they have improved just from listening to irish in class. Friends in other classes say they find it difficult to speak Irish because they are never asked to speak a word of it.
Speaking Irish is te best way to go!

gaeilgebeo

Afollower wrote: »

My son is studying for Jnr Cert and his Hons Irish teacher teaches through English which is just crazy - please please please teachers, if you're teaching Irish, speak Irish!!

How ironic.
Most of the students I get for Irish grinds come for grinds to get explanations/help for aspects of the course that are never explained/translated/made clear to them because the teacher teaches 100% through Irish.

mick kk

Here are a few things I use:

1. WinGléacht - very useful if you have a projector. If you don't have it, its a dictionary on your computer BUT...and here is the beauty of it...if you click on a noun it will give you the tuiseal ginideach uimhir uatha agus uimhir iolra and if you click on a verb it will give you a list of all the tenses for the verb including saorbhriathar, aidiacht bhriathartha etc.
My students have it on their computers [the ones who wanted it] and its better than any dictionary or goole translator. Its about €25 for the disc and its the best €25 I have ever spent.

2. Nuacht na seachtaine - Every weekend I'd put a powerpoint of images together from google images of items from the worlds of news, entertainment, and sport and would use it with all my groups to give them opportunities to speak the language.

3. Theres a useful resource on froebel.ie called E-leathanach - its updated every week and is useful as it has current topics covered in it and you can beem it up on a projector and get students to ask eachother questions i.e. they make up questions. Its most suitable for weaker students from 1st to 3rd year.

4. Youtube videos are useful for particular topics e.g. football bloobers, extreme weather videos, cookery videos...the students describe in Irish what they see/saw/expect to see on the video [different tenses]. It helps to keep them focused and again, it gives opportunities to speak the language

5. lurgan.biz....music videos with lyrics on the screen like karaoke...great for teaching vocab and grammer and if students will sing along, record on dictaphone or mobile phone and replay to the class...great fun with first years!

As regards the debate on english or irish in the classroom, I am in favour of Irish...the students get used to it because we are actually saying the same things all of the time - using pictures aswell helps to avoid english as you can point instead of say the word in English....students often resist it at first but do get used to it after a couple of weeks.

Samantha4

derb12 wrote: »

It's sad how many kids don't know what tuiseal ginideach or modh coinniollach actually mean.

I think the reason why the students are encountering difficulties with Irish grammar is because (perhaps?) the teachers aren't too sure themselves of how to explain the communicative aspects of Irish grammar, and only explain or understand the technical aspects. Grammar and its usage is multi-faceted, and until that is appreciated, it will never be understood. Also, students may not be familiar with the living Gaeltacht language. The Modh Coinníollach is basically just how we say in Irish the English equivalent of 'Will you have a cup of tea' - except we say 'An ólfá cupán tae' as in 'Would you drink a cup of tea.' The Tuiseal Ginideach is just like feminine words dressing themselves up as masculine; and masculine words taking on a feminine appearance (in the singular). That's the technical aspect of it. But the communicative side of that is where the TG is used to stress noun usage rather than the use of noun/adjective, as in English. There are basically 5 COMMUNICATIVE contexts in which the TG is used, and the TECHNICAL aspects (declensions, etc.) cannot be imbibed until those are understood. In addition to that, the syntax is not being explained to the students. An example: 'The magic/wondrous method' in English (noun,adjective) tends towards the TG in Irish, 'Modh an Aoibhnis' (noun, noun).
That's the basic cornerstone of the TG in the living language. It's not anything as hard as it's made out to be, and it can even be fun.
Any more questions?! Happy to help out with any grammatical problems.
Slán tamall.
Sám.