The DP World Tour Thread

Kevin Finnerty

Is Beef playing the women's or men's Tourney anyone know?

First Up

Joe_ Public wrote:

The men’s and women’s tournaments have been held concurrently for several years now, the only difference this year is the involvement of the LPGA. That gives an indication of how successful the concept has been and reckon it won’t be long before it’s introduced to the US and probably Europe as well.

Probably only manageable where there are two courses available for the first two rounds but its a nice idea.

Joe_ Public

First Up wrote: »

Probably only manageable where there are two courses available for the first two rounds but its a nice idea.

That’s true. There is actually a LET tournament in morocco where they do it too so it has caught on a bit though whether the pga would be interested is a moot point. Down the line - say, 20+ years from now - when the gap between male and female starts to close, the landscape may well look a little bit different.

Mantis Toboggan

I'd like to see them playing the same course to see how they compare.

Joe_ Public

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

I'd like to see them playing the same course to see how they compare.

Assume you mean they play off men’s tees so you have men hitting wedges/short irons into greens and women long irons/hybrids. Don’t really see the point of it on that basis, we all know how it turns out.

Mantis Toboggan

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Assume you mean they play off men’s tees so you have men hitting wedges/short irons into greens and women long irons/hybrids. Don’t really see the point of it on that basis, we all know how it turns out.

You'd be surprised, the woman can fairly smack it. Most other sports they play the same conditions as the men.

HighLine

Still a huge difference between men and women. There are a few exceptions but really they couldn't play from the same tees as men and expect to be competitive.

(2018 stats)

Joe_ Public

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

You'd be surprised, the woman can fairly smack it. Most other sports they play the same conditions as the men.

I think I’m just being realistic. There are some women who can smack it - Jutanugarn, Lexi Thompson, that Danish golfer whose name I forget, Nanny something or other!! - and they are getting longer, but still Jutanugarn or Thompson wouldnt be in the top 200 on the pga tour for average driving distance. Women still can’t get near a cut on the pga tour. The gap will narrow and close but it will take years for it to happen.

RoadRunner

Take this with a massive pinch of salt, as I've no evidence to back this up, but based solely on the footage I've seen of male/female golf at the top level:
- Ladies hit the fairway far more often
- Better at putting (no discernable difference anyway)
- Chipping, pitching similar
- Better temperament
- There's a difference in the 190ish yard range where a male pro might be hitting a 6-7iron which flys high and stops but the female has to swing a low hybrid or fairway wood to reach same green and takes the bunkers more into play.

I might just be seeing the good drives, or the putts that actually fall etc etc.. might be interesting to see stats.

One thing is the amount of people at the male pro events is far higher. A 300+ yard drive into absolutely terrible rough is ALWAYS found. Mostly the rough is trampled down, or the guys can hit wide and get relief from stands and stuff. I suspect if a male and female pro were to both play, hmm, corballis or something like that, the scores might be close.

PS. Does tiger woods have a relative who was playing in austrlia for the ladies?

Kevin Finnerty

RoadRunner wrote: »

Take this with a massive pinch of salt, as I've no evidence to back this up, but based solely on the footage I've seen of male/female golf at the top level:
- Ladies hit the fairway far more often
- Better at putting (no discernable difference anyway)
- Chipping, pitching similar
- Better temperament
- There's a difference in the 190ish yard range where a male pro might be hitting a 6-7iron which flys high and stops but the female has to swing a low hybrid or fairway wood to reach same green and takes the bunkers more into play.

I might just be seeing the good drives, or the putts that actually fall etc etc.. might be interesting to see stats.

One thing is the amount of people at the male pro events is far higher. A 300+ yard drive into absolutely terrible rough is ALWAYS found. Mostly the rough is trampled down, or the guys can hit wide and get relief from stands and stuff. I suspect if a male and female pro were to both play, hmm, corballis or something like that, the scores might be close.

PS. Does tiger woods have a relative who was playing in austrlia for the ladies?

Cheyenne, his niece.

Joe_ Public

There was an interesting piece with harrington a couple of weeks ago, may have come from a corporate event he was doing, in which he predicted a woman would win a pga tour event in his lifetime (actually not certain what timeline he placed on it but was along those lines anyway). Said the key aspect was coaching and mentality and when women golfers get those benefits, the gap will gradually get narrower and narrower. Obviously many might disagree with him (pele and african countries winning world cups springs to mind) but I found them very intriguing comments all the same.

Edit: can’t link from phone but there was a piece in sunday indo on it 2 weeks ago.

GreeBo

RoadRunner wrote: »

Take this with a massive pinch of salt, as I've no evidence to back this up, but based solely on the footage I've seen of male/female golf at the top level:
- Ladies hit the fairway far more often

The shorter you hit it the more fairways you will hit by definition.

Agreed on the scores if both were playing on a course without people to find their balls.

Henry Ford III

GreeBo wrote: »

The shorter you hit it the more fairways you will hit by definition...

I can hit it short and crooked too. It's a gift.

GreeBo

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I can hit it short and crooked too. It's a gift.

Sure, but the shorter it is the less trouble its in.

You can be 10 degrees off centre and hit every fairway if you only hit it 200, if you hit it 350 that 10 degrees has you in the trees.

ligerdub

RoadRunner wrote: »

Take this with a massive pinch of salt, as I've no evidence to back this up, but based solely on the footage I've seen of male/female golf at the top level:
- Ladies hit the fairway far more often
- Better at putting (no discernable difference anyway)
- Chipping, pitching similar
- Better temperament
- There's a difference in the 190ish yard range where a male pro might be hitting a 6-7iron which flys high and stops but the female has to swing a low hybrid or fairway wood to reach same green and takes the bunkers more into play.

I might just be seeing the good drives, or the putts that actually fall etc etc.. might be interesting to see stats.

One thing is the amount of people at the male pro events is far higher. A 300+ yard drive into absolutely terrible rough is ALWAYS found. Mostly the rough is trampled down, or the guys can hit wide and get relief from stands and stuff. I suspect if a male and female pro were to both play, hmm, corballis or something like that, the scores might be close.

No disrespect but I think you're mind is playing tricks there. Men tour players are better than women tour players in pretty much every aspect of the game, including short game. There's not much of a difference in putting but I'd wager the stats would show the average male tour pro to be better than the average female tour pro.

I don't want to be critical of women golfers, but they don't stand much of a chance of winning a mens tour event (European or US). Has there been an example of a decent finish by a woman in a mens event?

These comparisons do nothing for the womens game anyway. Last years womens open was one of the great tournaments of the year in the sport. Thinking too much about how they'd measure up against the men diminishes their achievements (rightly or wrongly).

GreeBo

^

not easy to compare as the mens stats are more plentiful and different but:

GIR = Women
Putts per Round = Men
Sand Saves = Even
FIR = Women
Scoring Average = Even

ligerdub

GreeBo wrote: »

^

not easy to compare as the mens stats are more plentiful and different but:

GIR = Women
Putts per Round = Men
Sand Saves = Even
FIR = Women
Scoring Average = Even

GIR, FIR and scoring average are reflective of the length of the course and/or their driving distance. If they play from the same tees then women would have higher FIR than men as 240 yard shots can be offline to a wider degree and hit the fairway than a 300 yard one can.

Similarly if you hit the fairway then you've got a better chance to hit the green. This may also be why men have a lower average putts per round.

Scoring average should be pretty much even given they are setup to be similar tests, but they aren't playing the same courses as each other.....different tees means a different test.

The most reliable comparable stat there is sand saves.

GreeBo

ligerdub wrote: »

GIR, FIR and scoring average are reflective of the length of the course and/or their driving distance. If they play from the same tees then women would have higher FIR than men as 240 yard shots can be offline to a wider degree and hit the fairway than a 300 yard one can.

Similarly if you hit the fairway then you've got a better chance to hit the green. This may also be why men have a lower average putts per round.

Scoring average should be pretty much even given they are setup to be similar tests, but they aren't playing the same courses as each other.....different tees means a different test.

The most reliable comparable stat there is sand saves.

I dont think its that simple.

The LPGA courses are as designed for women to play on as the PGA courses are for men. So the fairways narrow and hazards are located where the drives are landing. Same for both.

They are hitting similar clubs for their approach, now LPGA might be from 150 and PGA might be from 190, but if they are both hitting a 7i then who cares?


Its boils down to a question of how you view it.
Is it:
- Who hits the best 7i?
OR
- Who hits it the best from X distance?

Joe_ Public

I like watching women’s golf and standard is high, but i wouldn’t be convinced they measure up, on average, with the men on any metric. That’s just from observation really, purely subjective, not based on any stat.

I remember watching women’s open at lytham last year and how many of them struggled in the bunkers (plenty of male pros struggle with them too in fairness). The winner Georgia Hall made sensible choice of laying up on the tee to avoid fairway bunkers and playing long approaches.

I would say their short games are not generally as good because they don’t need to be. They don’t play augusta or us open type set ups on lpga tour so I’m not sure what conclusions you can draw from comparing stats.

spacecoyote

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I like watching women’s golf and standard is high, but i wouldn’t be convinced they measure up, on average, with the men on any metric. That’s just from observation really, purely subjective, not based on any stat.

I remember watching women’s open at lytham last year and how many of them struggled in the bunkers (plenty of male pros struggle with them too in fairness). The winner Georgia Hall made sensible choice of laying up on the tee to avoid fairway bunkers and playing long approaches.

I would say their short games are not generally as good because they don’t need to be. They don’t play augusta or us open type set ups on lpga tour so I’m not sure what conclusions you can draw from comparing stats.

Is the data on the LPGA available anywhere. I know that there is copious info on the mens game.

I would think that long game is a pointless comparison. Realistically the best reasonable comparison would to be to look at proximity numbers for the distances in from 150yrds to green I would say.

Outside of that putting & Up&Down/Sandsave data should be a relatively level playing field

Joe_ Public

spacecoyote wrote: »

Is the data on the LPGA available anywhere. I know that there is copious info on the mens game.

I would think that long game is a pointless comparison. Realistically the best reasonable comparison would to be to look at proximity numbers for the distances in from 150yrds to green I would say.

Outside of that putting & Up&Down/Sandsave data should be a relatively level playing field

Apart from lpga website not sure where you’d get a detailed breakdown, it’s not half as comprehensive as the pga version though.

The short game figures probably wouldn’t be that far off. On reflection I was probably being harsh on the women’s game above because I mostly only watch the majors so I would be judging them on the hardest, most pressure filled events. Male or female, i doubt i have seen many better short games than Lydia Ko’s, just a shame to see her struggling way she is past couple of years.

ligerdub

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think its that simple.

The LPGA courses are as designed for women to play on as the PGA courses are for men. So the fairways narrow and hazards are located where the drives are landing. Same for both.

They are hitting similar clubs for their approach, now LPGA might be from 150 and PGA might be from 190, but if they are both hitting a 7i then who cares?


Its boils down to a question of how you view it.
Is it:
- Who hits the best 7i?
OR
- Who hits it the best from X distance?

It is that simple.

The womens fairways would have to be narrower than the mens fairways in order for it to be comparable, and there's no evidence that's the case (or is there?). Let's say the fairway was X yards wide at the average mens landing area then the margin of error is much smaller than if the fairway was X yards wide at the average womens landing area. It's a matter of angles and margin of error.

Similarly the nearer shot with the same club is not comparable. The target is smaller for the person further away. It's a tougher shot simple as that.

Do you think it's easier for a darts player to hit a bullseye from 20 yards or 15 yards?

Fair comparisons are difficult given the natural strength advantage that men have on average, which is probably why it's unfair to compare the 2 sexes.

It does however stand to reason that the skillset (adjusted for strength differences) on the mens tour would be better than the womens game. There a big imbalance in the number of men competing to get into the top 150 or so in the mens game than the same battle in the womens game.The same is true at each point in the rankings.

Fair enough to appreciate the skill levels in the womens game, and they do have to exert more effort for the same distance, but making the suggestion that they're on the cusp of winning a tour event or that they're better than the average mens tour player is pie in the sky stuff.

Joe_ Public

Don’t believe anyone is suggesting a woman is on the cusp of winning a pga event to be honest, brittany lincicome was the last to try last year and missed the cut by 9 or 10 shots I believe it was.

RoadRunner

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Don’t believe anyone is suggesting a woman is on the cusp of winning a pga event to be honest, brittany lincicome was the last to try last year and missed the cut by 9 or 10 shots I believe it was.

Cool, just looked this up, the cut was -4 and she shot +5, so well off. Being the only girl, and one of only five ever to play on the mens tour may have got to her during the first round, opening with a 78 with both a double and triple on the card. Then with no chance of making the cut for her second round her scoring improved, and she had 5 birdies and an eagle on the second day. 4 under total for the par 5's over the two days, but 7 over for the par 3's won't cut it! It wasn't longer holes that were the problem, interestingly the par three's were all 190-210y in length which I suggested earlier was a problem range for ladies. The top guys and even good amateurs can hammer a mid-iron to climb high and land softly at this range. I'd like to see more females compete with the guys on the same layout courses. I don't see a win being likely on a normal course being honest, but I'd say it's very likely to see some cuts being made. If sponsors invites could be got they may have a better chance at getting a bigger payout at the end of the day. Like making the cut and finishing something like 36th place may represent similar prize money to a 3rd or 4th place finish in a regular ladies event, but then sponsors would run riot with that.

Joe_ Public

Without seeing card it’s hard to be sure. Sometimes par 5s are the easiest holes, eminent birdie chances, while the 500+ yard par 4s truly separate the men from boys (or women as case may be!)

But do think it’s a good idea for more pga sponsors invites for women. As long as it isn’t a marketing gimmicky thing like with Michelle Wie, then it can only be a good thing for all involved and there are a handful of women currently who could give it a go on the right course I reckon.

callaway92

spacecoyote wrote: »

I would think that long game is a pointless comparison. Realistically the best reasonable comparison would to be to look at proximity numbers for the distances in from 150yrds to green I would say.

Outside of that putting & Up&Down/Sandsave data should be a relatively level playing field

Looking at data in work - Sand saves % and Avg Putts per round % are very similar for Men's and Women's Top 5 in 2018's seasons.

Mantis Toboggan

Any idea what went on in Australia? Course must have been alot tougher based on the scoring.

Joe_ Public

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Any idea what went on in Australia? Course must have been alot tougher based on the scoring.

Winds up to 40mph apparently, 6 hour plus rounds. Doesnt seem like it was a whole lotta fun there yesterday.

slave1

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Winds up to 40mph apparently, 6 hour plus rounds. Doesnt seem like it was a whole lotta fun there yesterday.

Quick round for Paul so...

Diego Tristan

Final results for the Irish players involved at the Vic Open in Australia...


MEN'S EVENT:

T17 Paul Dunne & Michael Hoey (€12,169 each)

T27 Gavin Moynihan (€9,188)

150 Conor Purcell (amateur, missed 36 hole cut)

WOMEN'S EVENT:

T44 Leona Maguire (made 36 hole cut, but missed 54 hole cut to play final round by 1 shot - prizemoney for T44 was US$ 4,101)