why are umemployed given money for nothing?

nino1

I would like to debate this point. Just this specific point.
Why are people on the dole not made to work 20 hours or so a week for their dole money?
This would still leave them with loads of time to seek employment and at least they would be doing something productive for their money rather than getting hand outs.

3DataModem

nino1 wrote: »

I would like to debate this point. Just this specific point.
Why are people on the dole not made to work 20 hours or so a week for their dole money?
This would still leave them with loads of time to seek employment and at least they would be doing something productive for their money rather than getting hand outs.

1. Because people haven't voted for politicians who will support this?
2. Because the admin costs in forcing unwilling people to work 20 hours per week exceed the benefit.

Capri86

Umemployed?

OU812

Absolutely agree with you.

There's a huge amount of community effort which could be done from street sweeping, community gardening, graffiti removal etc.

The person doing it would have a sense of worth & contribution.

I'd say 14 hours though. 2 x 7 hour days.

Unfortunately I think insurance would be an issue as would council unions.

(I'm currently out of work btw)

wardy2

Fully agreed with ya on that I'd have a mate who left school early and has been on the welfare since then.

No intentions to find work he just stays up all night and sleeps all day...

zenno

nino1 wrote: »

I would like to debate this point. Just this specific point.
Why are people on the dole not made to work 20 hours or so a week for their dole money?
This would still leave them with loads of time to seek employment and at least they would be doing something productive for their money rather than getting hand outs.

They already are, and more and more unemployed people will be very soon as well. It's called TUS and a lot of people are already on it. Also jobsbridge is forced on unemployed folk as well so most will be working 19 and a half hours a week on TUS and the rest will be on jobsbridge full time 5 days a week for an extra €50.

This is already in motion for a lot of unemployed so i don't get your point.

The plan is to get everyone off the live register and working in a voluntary work-placement scheme like TUS and also a jobsbridge scheme. But the problem with jobsbridge is that your employer does not pay you a cent. The social welfare pay you your €188 a week plus an extra €50 top-up for travel expenses, the employer pays you zero.

bbam

zenno wrote: »

They already are, and more and more unemployed people will be very soon as well. It's called TUS and a lot of people are already on it. Also jobsbridge is forced on unemployed folk as well so most will be working 19 and a half hours a week on TUS and the rest will be on jobsbridge full time 5 days a week for an extra €50.

This is already in motion for a lot of unemployed so i don't get your point.

Along with TUS the CoCouncils are already working on an employment scheme. Initially 3000 places but I've heard up to 9000 places being talked about too.


Personally I don't think people should be forced onto these schemes until they are two or three years after being made unemployed. For many they have paid their PRSI and tax for decades to cover for being made unemployed.
Also they should systematically start recruiting those who are longest on the scratcher in every area. This isn't happening at all. The serially unemployed should be targeted first.

Iano_128

I agree! I know a guy whose unemployed since he left school and saw him on Facebook chatting to his friends about their 2 week trip to Ibiza this Summer and about how much money he spent in the bookies the other day. Sickens me that I'm working 40+ hours a week and can just comfortably pay my bills and have a decent enough social life, but people like him are on the dole and get to go off to Ibiza for 2 weeks and gamble our tax money away. I do know of a few people that are working 19 hours a week but don't know what it is that makes them have to work while others don't. Could be how long someone has been on it but I'm only guessing.

I got an infraction there last week for commenting on someones post asking if she can go on holidays for 3 weeks on the Welfare and still claim the 3 weeks dole.

Busted Flat.

http://northernvoicesmag.blogspot.com/2012/02/government-work-for-your-dole-scheme-in.html

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theweek.co.uk%2Fpolitics%2Fwelfare-reform%2F51498%2Fgovts-work-your-dole-programme-crisis-or-not&ei=a6J2UamyDsHX7AbMtoHYCQ&usg=AFQjCNGS-vzDoufjN4HyUgGXixmwSCUtSw&bvm=bv.45512109,d.ZGU

the_syco

You have to be careful, as it will lead to some people getting sacked, and replaced by people who don't want to be there, at no cost to the employer.

DarkJager

nino1 wrote: »

I would like to debate this point. Just this specific point.
Why are people on the dole not made to work 20 hours or so a week for their dole money?
This would still leave them with loads of time to seek employment and at least they would be doing something productive for their money rather than getting hand outs.

2 different types of unemployed; the ones who have worked for years, paid taxes and are now out of work and those who have never worked a day in their lives.

I don't agree that type 1 should be forced in to anything like this. They aren't recieving "hand outs", they are simply getting assistance back from the taxes they paid while working.

Type 2 however should be put to work, even community work for a minimum number of hours per week. At least they'd be making some contribution towards what they are getting then.

zenno

bbam wrote: »

Along with TUS the CoCouncils are already working on an employment scheme. Initially 3000 places but I've heard up to 9000 places being talked about too.


Personally I don't think people should be forced onto these schemes until they are two or three years after being made unemployed. For many they have paid their PRSI and tax for decades to cover for being made unemployed.
Also they should systematically start recruiting those who are longest on the scratcher in every area. This isn't happening at all. The serially unemployed should be targeted first.

I agree with this completely, but the way the department of social welfare are going about this, it seems they don't care how long you are with them as they are seriously under pressure to get the unemployment stat's down no matter what it takes.

When you do start this TUS scheme, you have no choice in the matter because if you fail to tick the box saying you will do it, you will be automatically cut off from your payment.

spank_inferno

If the unemployed clean the streets, cut the grass etc, what will the council staff employed to do that work do?

How would it save money?

What does the OP plan to do about the 20+ applicants for every available job ratio?

zenno

spank_inferno wrote: »

If the unemployed clean the streets, cut the grass etc, what will the council staff employed to do that work do?

How would it save money?

What does the OP plan to do about the 20+ applicants for every available job ratio?

I can see problems with these schemes indeed down the line or possibly already as there is a gut feeling that payed workers could be let go and TUS employees taken on, but whether this is happening now already needs to be investigated.

It says clearly on the application pdf form.....

THIS SHOULD BE COMPLETED BY THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMUNITY/VOLUNTARY ORGANISATION
On behalf of __________________________________________ (please insert the
name of your community/voluntary organisation) I, the undersigned, submit this
application to the Tús Programme and declare that all the information given is true and
complete to the best of my knowledge and belief. I acknowledge that any placement
awarded must be used for the purpose stated and not used to replace existing job that
was made redundant. I also understand that information supplied in or accompanying this
application may be made available on request under the Freedom of Information Acts
1997 and 2003.

Source: http://www.fingalleaderpartnership.ie/images/stories/fingalforms/tus%20placement%20application.pdf

PS: You have to be on the live register for 12 months before you are eligible for TUS.

Sadderday

I always wondered why can't most of the people on the dole job seeking spend some of their day doing volunteer work in a homeless shelter/soup run/clean up operations etc etc

....... surely, when do you get an interview you can stress then that you are trying to utilise your time doing good and progressing along with society rather than watching tv
?

(not generalising, just wondering?)

See, I have a friend that hasn't bothered in a job since leaving school 10 years ago. Not interested in helping do up a CV and sits around all day on the Xbox, now he is up against people with 10 years experience if he goes for a job... he doesn't even have anything to contribute to an interview if discussing what he did with his free time

In fairness he did do the odd course over the years but I'm convinced its so his dole wouldn't get cut ?

NIMAN

spank_inferno wrote: »

If the unemployed clean the streets, cut the grass etc, what will the council staff employed to do that work do?

How would it save money?

What does the OP plan to do about the 20+ applicants for every available job ratio?

To be fair there is plenty of work to keep the unemployed and the council staff working. To think the council staff would all be laid off or lying around doing nothing is nonsense.

I do think its a decent enough idea, but again it should only apply to those out of work long term, so that it will particularly target the 'dont want to work' brigade who couldn't even work when we had 'full employment' and there were jobs everywhere.

nino1

NIMAN wrote: »

it should only apply to those out of work long term, so that it will particularly target the 'dont want to work' brigade who couldn't even work when we had 'full employment' and there were jobs everywhere.

I agree 100%, I meant to say that in the op.
I have every sympathy fo those that worked hard pai their taxes and are genuinely looking for work.

Sadderday

I dont understand how people can sit around all day long though for years on end.

..... i'm sure there are some people that are compelled to keep active and are probably helping out in the odd oxfam shop or vincent de pauls.

Fair play

SolarFlash

Sadderday wrote: »

I dont understand how people can sit around all day long though for years on end.

drugs help

GarIT

We need a system where dole is paid for a maximum of 52 weeks in any 10 year period. Then we need a community employment scheme where anyone can work 3 days a week for €200 in their local community. It won't save money but it creates a fair system. Also on this system people on the dole shouldn't be required to seek employment.

Sadderday

SolarFlash wrote: »

drugs help

Sounds kinda sad though for the long termers

Especially for those that would prefer to have work.

Melion

Everything was discussed here

http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84284013#post84284013

zenno

I will say, the main issue with the likes of jobsbridge is that companies and businesses will not employ folks for an average paid wage when they can simply take on a forced jobsbridge applicant and pay them nothing.

I do not see this as policed as it should be to stop businesses taking advantage of cheap labour. Unfortunately, the forced jobsbridge applicant in most cases will not see a full paid job after the nine months working say in tesco or numerous other similar stores as these businesses know quite well that they can just take on another intern when the nine months are up of the previous intern and still make profits without having to pay the intern.

It is obviously wide open to abuse.

Pharaoh1

To be fair I think this is one area that is pretty well covered.
Apart from those already mentioned such as Tus there are the CE schemes, JI and RSS.
In many ways they are a good example of where the state does things pretty efficiently. I know guys who for example bring their own tools to work which (a) keeps the costs down and (b) ensures that the stuff is looked after.

Also the admin is minimal and the admin people are local and take on people who are likely to work avoiding (as my neighbour calls them the "unemployable unemployed") those who won't or can't do anything useful.


But there is a limit to how much workfare the state can run and for many it has become an end in itself with the ambition to get on or stay on the CE.

Interestingly it is also imo a huge enabler of the black economy as anyone that goes onto these schemes is no longer under the scrutiny of the DSP and many are earning a decent income doing a few hours CE (or week on week off) and 2-4 days a week working for cash. PRSI is paid on these schemes so that is all above board.
I think this is especially true in rural areas especially with seasonal work on farms or turf cutting and the like.

alpaca_man

"it should only apply to those out of work long term, so that it will
particularly target the 'dont want to work' brigade who couldn't even work when
we had 'full employment' and there were jobs everywhere.

That's all well and good but the "won't work" brigade all have brass necks and years of experience in making excuses. I can foresee that if this scheme were brought in there would be an epidemic of people with "alcohol issues" and "depression" and "chronic pain" rendering them "disabled". Then they'd proably use the opportunity to get on the disability aswell as being on the scratch.

zenno

alpaca_man wrote: »

That's all well and good but the "won't work" brigade all have brass necks and years of experience in making excuses. I can foresee that if this scheme were brought in there would be an epidemic of people with "alcohol issues" and "depression" and "chronic pain" rendering them "disabled". Then they'd proably use the opportunity to get on the disability aswell as being on the scratch.

These schemes are already in, and in place since 2011 ?.

You cannot be on the 'scratch' as you say and be on disability at the same time. You are either eligible for one or the other. Also you would need an act of God to get on disability nowadays as they are even forcing people on disability into these schemes i kid you not.

Sleepy

Whilst unemployed back in 2009 I offered my services as an expert in their ERP system to the local council near where I lived at the time with the aim of keeping up to date and having something on my CV for my time off, maybe getting myself into a position where I'd prove so useful they would want to hire me. My skills were worth over €1000 a day to the council at the rates they paid their main provider and while they hadn't been buying much time off my former employer, there certainly would have been things they'd have liked to have done if they could have afford them.

I didn't get so much as an email to tell me they weren't interested.

KyussBishop

Might as well go the whole hog and provide a Job Guarantee; it is more expensive (thus doubt Ireland could afford it at current debt levels), but it would actually be a much better way of dealing with periods of economic crisis, than simple unemployment is.

This way, you could move everyone off of the dole into work, and you could even create guaranteed jobs for the disabled too, to suit their abilities.

Xcellor

Well there are those who have worked all their life's and have made PRSI contributions/paid tax/contributed to society. I don't class them as "getting money for free".

Then there are the welfare junkies who have worked a few on and off jobs. Who are now long term unemployed bums. I class them as "getting money for free" Also single mothers who use their child as an excuse for being lazy good for nothing, sucking every benefit and abusing medical cards for every runny nose...

There are always exceptions but the sense of entitlement of people who have never contributed to the system that they are feeding off drives me crazy.

However it boils down to a system that makes it too easy to abuse and get hooked on.

Qualitymark

Do you know, this is a fantastic idea. Irish wages are way too high, especially in the public sector, and our exports could be way more competitive.

But why limit it? With 14% employment (admitted), and many of the people now on the dole highly skilled and qualified, it's a time we could have some really creative thinking. What about giving people on the dole taxis and allowing them to earn? Those with high literacy and numeracy skills could teach, allowing us to lower the wages of teachers. Anyone with an entrepreneurial skill could be given big advantages in setting up in business, so that other small businesses would have to compete much harder for the limited amount of money people have to spend. Our hospital doctors are working insane hours, and hospitals are already breaking down, so it surely won't make much difference if we give some basic training to people who can't find work, and allow them to help with treating patients. And what about the Dail - we could definitely lower the salaries of some of the politicians, and their advisers, if we brought the unemployed in to help govern the country.

OU812

Sadderday wrote: »

..... i'm sure there are some people that are compelled to keep active and are probably helping out in the odd oxfam shop or vincent de pauls.

Fair play

You're not allowed to do that on the dole. You have to be available for work & if you're volunteering somewhere, you're not. ****ty system.

RichardAnd

The internship scheme is being abused to procure labour free of charge, I have little doubt that any such "work-for-dole" idea would garner similar mis-use. Most people on the dole don't want to be there and I can speak from experience that it's a soul destroying experience. Leave them alone, it's miserable enough as it is already.

nino1

Steady on there, I'm all for getting people on the dole to contribute but your ideas are a bit far fetched!!!

Qualitymark wrote: »

Those with high literacy and numeracy skills could teach, allowing us to lower the wages of teachers.

As the Croke park agreement talks show you can't just lower the wages of teachers, I think the unions might have something to say about that!

Qualitymark wrote: »

Our hospital doctors are working insane hours, and hospitals are already breaking down, so it surely won't make much difference if we give some basic training to people who can't find work, and allow them to help with treating patients.

I hope that is tongue in cheek and your not actually suggesting people on the dole help treat patients! It's takes a bit more than "basic training" to do that!

spank_inferno

A lot of posts are: "I work so why don't they"

Sure, if someone on the dole can wear an ill-fitting suit and mumble a speech poorly then they can be low cost TD's!!

Qualitymark

And of course there are an awful lot of people thrown on to the dole who are computer workers of one sort or another. Irish programmers' salaries could be much more competitive if they were lowered by bringing these people back into the workforce as state-supported interns.

donkey balls

First of all OP you cannot just get people on the dole to start cleaning the streets/roads they would need a medical& induction training along with PPE,As for the job bridge scam were by employers are getting free labour courtesy of noonan sticking his fingers in to my and others private pensions.
When my fixed term contract ended with the company that I work for I went down to the dole office to sign on within 6 weeks they sent me a letter stating they wanted to see me for a meeting.
At the meeting they are going to discuss training opportunities available to me and job seeking efforts,Now the thing is over the last five years since been made redundant I have spent just under 5k of my own money in training.
Yet the likes of FAS/DSW could not help me I happen to know plenty of people who have worked all of their lives and have found them selves signing on,So OP should they be made clean the streets etc after them paying taxes/prsi all there lives.

squod

Here's an idea. Sack everyone form private and public jobs. Interview everyone for these vacant jobs and have the best/most suitable people occupy positions.

If we're left with 450,000 without work then maybe we could look at the OPs offer again. But bear in mind, we had 4% unemployment before the economy was destroyed.

NIMAN

Have you any idea how costly an exercise it is to hire 1 person for a firm?

Its an expensive process that can take months, trying to rehire the entire countrys workforce sounds like a plan:rolleyes:

Qualitymark

squod wrote: »

Here's an idea. Sack everyone form private and public jobs. Interview everyone for these vacant jobs and have the best/most suitable people occupy positions.

If we're left with 450,000 without work then maybe we could look at the OPs offer again. But bear in mind, we had 4% unemployment before the economy was destroyed.

I see a flaw. If we sack everyone, we'll have sacked the HR people. How do we hire people without HR people to interview and assess them? Who will interview the interviewers? Who will hire the hirers?

cikearney

I have been on the dole a couple of times and have always looked for work to the best of my ability, getting up early every day and getting onto job sites, going to local FAS employment office, calling every plumber in the yellow pages offering my services for little or nothing, going into every bar, club, restraunt, dunnes stores etc. with cv in hand, this has worked out in my favour a couple of times.

I have friends who have been on the dole for 9+ years. Never been on a course, never asked for proof that they are activley looking for work, get up at what ever time the feel, smoke all day, in and out of the bookies all day out all weekend.

I even have a friend whom him and his girlfriend were on the social, decided the wanted to live together, looked for a house, got the deposit from you know who get extra money in the winter for heating, get extra money for the dog, have medical cards..........

I have also worked in a particular area of dublin for Dublin County Council. I started at half 8, couldn't get into anyones house until ten as they are either still sleeping or bringing the kids to school. Open tell you how much they claim, how much rent is, the money they get when the kid makes a communion/ confirmation even though they bought top of the range clothing for them on there last exotic holiday. And they too, well 80% of them have the same habbits.

I can go on forever but two more points, sorry.....

I was in my social welfare office opening a claim or something cant remember, but what i can remember was the woman and daughter infront of me, wwhere the mother was saying "she's (the daughter) 18 now, she wants the labour".

Also a friend with 2 kids, a wife and renting a house. Granted he had worked for many years, he is entitled, as is everyone, to make a claim. He has told me that between the money for him, the wife, the kids and the rent he's getting just shy of €650 a week and has no interest in giving it up for a job that pays €400 a week, plus he gets childrens allowance and school benifits and whatever else.

My point is I'm sick of the "Can't work, won't work" attitude in our country, there are many people genuinley out of work and seeking work and i'm not saying people aren't entitled to a social life or that they should get food stamps, but the do need to be seen to be actively looking for a set amount of job offers a day. Jobsbridge is gonna cripple people as well by making room for the cheap/ free labour, employer should have to meet criteria that that have not let anyone go in the last 12/18 months to avail.

The Irish system is backward, I have had my fair share of beeing effed around by FAS and the likes. The governing bodies need to get up off their arse's, listen to people who make some sort of sense and stop there backward motion of thinking.

Also to all the spongers "Get off your arse and look for a job".

Writing to you from Australia.

P.S I also think benifits should have to meet criteria such as job search evidence etc and if nothing is supplied benits should be reduced

s20101938

cikearney wrote: »

"Get off your arse and look for a job".

THERE ARE NO JOBS! GET IT?

KyussBishop

And before the inevitable 'yes there are jobs'; there are not enough jobs:

SCOOP 64

People with jobs are the lucky ones ,not the other way round.

Sadderday

i've gotten about 15 calls for interviews since i did up a good cv and sent it out in Feb.

There are jobs.

SCOOP 64

Sadderday wrote: »

i've gotten about 15 calls for interviews since i did up a good cv and sent it out in Feb.

There are jobs.

Did you get all 15 jobs!:D

Sadderday

I got one and I'm assuming 14 others were successful.

I'm just saying that I was really dedicated and spent a long time personalising cover letters and paid a small amount to have my CV guccied up.

I dropped into places with the CVs, called, emailed directly... just showed a real interest.

It's hard but not impossible.

SCOOP 64

No doubt there are jobs out there , one got the job, maybe 25 or more didn't.
still not enough jobs too go a round.

Sadderday

yeah your probably right there. shame that there are still people that aren't bothered looking because they think that they cant match competitors for the jobs...

Are there any places for people to go get free CV and interview advice (besides a recruitment agency) to help build confidence to try

SCOOP 64

The problem is also the type of people on the dole now, not just young people .the man now in his 40's or 50's ,worked in a factory for last 20yrs, most work now is tech work .IT. call centers etc... this man will struggle, 20 yrs in same factory wont count for much on his CV.

Devi

Why doesn’t the government incentives job creation, let’s say for every business that employs an unemployed person give them €100 per week towards the persons wages for the first few years. Government saves €88 per week + RA + medical cards + other benefits. Person feels good about themselves etc. Now at the same time start a tapering off program where benefits reduce over time to get the lazy ones moving. When you think about it businesses could employ someone for as little as €190 + prsi per week, they could almost start to compete with eastern European manufacturing with that kind of rates.

SCOOP 64

€190 per week ,hard supporting a family on that, if you are just talking about single people, might be a idea and do way with internship,for full time jobs.