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Letting agent inspecting house while renters not present

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    #32
    valleyoftheunos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭valleyoftheunos


    Tigger wrote: »
    if a tenant works 9-6 then they cant meet the agent during office hours without taking time off
    why should they take time off ?

    They don't have to take time off, what they do have to do is allow, by arrangement with the LL, access to the property for purpose of inspection. if they cannot or will not meet the LL or agent during reasonable hours it is entirely open to the Tenant to allow access in their absence. Failure to do so could put them in breach of their obligations under the lease and the Residential Tenancies Act.


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    #33
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    thegreatiam wrote: »
    As a quick aside.
    The landlord/agent needs to arrange a suitable time you agree on for an inspection. What constitutes a reasonable time?
    If the tenant worked shifts could they insist that the visit only take place at 2am?

    I ask cos I worked night for a long time and it frustrated me the way Id be expected to comply with meeting at 3pm
    Would I be within my rights to refuse a day time interruption?

    I told a landlord only after 11:30pm would suit me for certain unless he could wait until a Saturday 2 weeks away. I couldn't guarantee that I would be free as I was on call most days. He waited the 2 weeks.


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    #34
    valleyoftheunos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭valleyoftheunos


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    What if you're accused of theft? You need to protect yourself as well as thinking about the tenants rights.

    Fair point but it's on the tenant to be sure, making a false allegation could be very serious.


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    #35
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    They don't have to take time off, what they do have to do is allow, by arrangement with the LL, access to the property for purpose of inspection. if they cannot or will not meet the LL or agent during reasonable hours it is entirely open to the Tenant to allow access in their absence. Failure to do so could put them in breach of their obligations under the lease and the Residential Tenancies Act.

    If a tenant does not agree to an inspection in their absence the time has to be agreed by both parties. If that means waiting until Christmas holidays so be it. If the LL wants an earlier time he needs to agree on the tenants terms.


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    #36
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    They don't have to take time off, what they do have to do is allow, by arrangement with the LL, access to the property for purpose of inspection. if they cannot or will not meet the LL or agent during reasonable hours it is entirely open to the Tenant to allow access in their absence. Failure to do so could put them in breach of their obligations under the lease and the Residential Tenancies Act.

    Id like to see that one tested by the PRTB if Im honest. Reasonable hours works both ways; its not the tenants problem if the landlord/agent only wants to do their job during normal working hours, and I dont see it as reasonable to expect access to only be granted during normal working hours. If the tenant can prove that they have granted permission to inspect between the hours of 6pm-9pm any day of the week then Id be amazed if the PRTB ruled against them. They are being more than obliging towards the landlords request to inspect the property.


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    #37
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    Fair point but it's on the tenant to be sure, making a false allegation could be very serious.

    If I come home and my laptop isn't where I left it and not in the house and I agreed to having a LL enter while I was at work I would be straight on to the gardai. If the backdoor had been left unlocked and it had been stolen after the LL visited who would ever know he was innocent?

    Not a position I would put myself in.


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    #38
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    djimi wrote: »
    Id like to see that one tested by the PRTB if Im honest. Reasonable hours works both ways; its not the tenants problem if the landlord/agent only wants to do their job during normal working hours, and I dont see it as reasonable to expect access to only be granted during normal working hours. If the tenant can prove that they have granted permission to inspect between the hours of 6pm-9pm any day of the week then Id be amazed if the PRTB ruled against them. They are being more than obliging towards the landlords request to inspect the property.

    I don't get how the PRTB could rule against the tenant at all for not facilitating an inspection. There is no obligation for an inspection to happen, just that if the LL requests one it should be with prior notice at a mutually agreed time.


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    #39
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    Fair point but it's on the tenant to be sure, making a false allegation could be very serious.

    How can you prove the accusation wrong though? If they rang the agency about it, it could smear your name! Doubt could always be there. It was the point I was trying (and failed) to put across in my post. It is for your safety and for the safety of the tenant.


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    #40
    valleyoftheunos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭valleyoftheunos


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    If a tenant does not agree to an inspection in their absence the time has to be agreed by both parties. If that means waiting until Christmas holidays so be it. If the LL wants an earlier time he needs to agree on the tenants terms.

    Disagree
    djimi wrote: »
    Id like to see that one tested by the PRTB if Im honest. Reasonable hours works both ways; its not the tenants problem if the landlord/agent only wants to do their job during normal working hours, and I dont see it as reasonable to expect access to only be granted during normal working hours. If the tenant can prove that they have granted permission to inspect between the hours of 6pm-9pm any day of the week then Id be amazed if the PRTB ruled against them. They are being more than obliging towards the landlords request to inspect the property.

    It does cut both ways but it doesn't mean it has to happen at the tenant's convenience although in fairness most agents will work until 6:30, perhaps 7. However if a tenant were to make access so conditional as to amount to a refusal I could easily see the PRTB go against the tenant.
    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    If I come home and my laptop isn't where I left it and not in the house and I agreed to having a LL enter while I was at work I would be straight on to the gardai. If the backdoor had been left unlocked and it had been stolen after the LL visited who would ever know he was innocent?

    Not a position I would put myself in.

    Who could prove he was guilty is the actual question.
    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    I don't get how the PRTB could rule against the tenant at all for not facilitating an inspection. There is no obligation for an inspection to happen, just that if the LL requests one it should be with prior notice at a mutually agreed time.

    If the Landlord reasonably requests one and you don't agree/allow/prevent it you're in breach.


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    #41
    valleyoftheunos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭valleyoftheunos


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    How can you prove the accusation wrong though? If they rang the agency about it, it could smear your name! Doubt could always be there. It was the point I was trying (and failed) to put across in my post. It is for your safety and for the safety of the tenant.

    Nobody has to prove their innocence, although I do take your point. In most cases its the agency that will want the agent to do the inspection so it wouldn't lie for them to take action against an agent for an unsubstantiated allegation. Its a difficult position that agents often find themselves in, the job has to get done is the simple fact. there are ways to protect yourself though, having a second agent with you and making sure the property is securely locked before you leave being the main two.

    Wrongful allegations could result in defamation proceedings against the person making the allegations.


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    #42
    donegal.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭donegal.


    if the la does let themselves in to do an inspection how would you know ? what would you go to guards with?
    (i'm presuming they're not going to rob anything)


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    #43
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    It does cut both ways but it doesn't mean it has to happen at the tenant's convenience although in fairness most agents will work until 6:30, perhaps 7. However if a tenant were to make access so conditional as to amount to a refusal I could easily see the PRTB go against the tenant.

    If the Landlord reasonably requests one and you don't agree/allow/prevent it you're in breach.

    It pretty much does have to happen at the tenants convenience. The tenant cannot completely block an inspection, but it must be carried out at a predetermined time that suits the tenant, and if that tenant works 9-5 then so be it; if the landlord wants to inspect the property then it will be outside of office hours.

    If a landlord requests an inspection and the tenant makes themselves available every evening during the week between 6 and 9 then they are more than fulfilling their obligation regarding inspections. If the landlord cant/wont carry out the inspection during those hours then its their own problem and they wont be carrying out an inspection.


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    #44
    valleyoftheunos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭valleyoftheunos


    djimi wrote: »
    It pretty much does have to happen at the tenants convenience. The tenant cannot completely block an inspection, but it must be carried out at a predetermined time that suits the tenant, and if that tenant works 9-5 then so be it; if the landlord wants to inspect the property then it will be outside of office hours.

    If a landlord requests an inspection and the tenant makes themselves available every evening during the week between 6 and 9 then they are more than fulfilling their obligation regarding inspections. If the landlord cant/wont carry out the inspection during those hours then its their own problem and they wont be carrying out an inspection.

    Respectfully disagree.


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    #45
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Im not really sure what your justification is for disagreeing with any of that, but fair enough.


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    #46
    valleyoftheunos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭valleyoftheunos


    djimi wrote: »
    Im not really sure what your justification is for disagreeing with any of that, but fair enough.

    Well I don't really see any grounds for any of your statements either in law or reason. Hence the disagreement.


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    #47
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,300 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    If the Landlord reasonably requests one and you don't agree/allow/prevent it you're in breach.
    If the LL demands work references (as many do), they will have to compromise and visit the tenants house when the tenant is not working. Over simplified? Most likely, but compromises work both ways, and not just to favour the LL.


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    #48
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    The law says that the tenant must give reasonable allowance for inspections. The law does not state that these inspections must take place during office hours. In my opinion someone offering 5 x 3-4 time slots in a week is more than reasonable. Unless you can show me some legislation that states that these times slots must take place during working hours?


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    #49
    Duckjob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    there are two possible readings to "It doesnt matter whether you're there or not" and I'm not sure that it's meant as you think it is.

    You might be within your rights to call the Guards but does that mean it's a good idea? Will it solve anything? Is it going to improve relations between you and the agent or landlord? A good relationship with the LL or Agent makes renting so much easier.


    Agree a good relationship is definitely to be strived for, but:

    if a tenant states they dont want anyone in their home when they are not there, and the EA ignores this and rides roughshod over their rights by entering the property, then the EA needs an almighty kick up the arse.

    A visit from the Gardai and threat of prosecution for unlawful entry might help them realise the legal obligations that they MUST adhere to, whether it's convenient for them or not.


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    #50
    valleyoftheunos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭valleyoftheunos


    djimi wrote: »
    The law says that the tenant must give reasonable allowance for inspections. The law does not state that these inspections must take place during office hours. In my opinion someone offering 5 x 3-4 time slots in a week is more than reasonable. Unless you can show me some legislation that states that these times slots must take place during working hours?

    No where does it say that they must take place at times wholly convenient to the tenant either, I fail to see why nor has anyone offered any basis for, the belief that a tenant's working hours are so sacrosanct that they cannot be disturbed to fulfill an obligation under a lease yet a LL or Agent's can be.

    A Tenant signs up to the lease just as much as the LL and the tenant also has obligations under it. The tenant has full knowledge of the obligations involved including the requirement to allow access for inspections. They should only sign if they are prepared to fulfill those obligations.

    Taken objectively a request that an inspection be carried out during normal working hours is far more reasonable for both parties than one that requires it to be carried out as late as 9pm as you have suggested. there are any number of alternatives, the tenant can arrange for someone else such as a friend or family member to be present or as is often the solution, to be done in their absence, a solution from which they will suffer no prejudice.

    For the record I'm not now, nor have I ever, suggested that in such circumstances a LL would be entitled to carry out an inspection in the tenant's absence without the tenant's permission. What I am saying is that in such circumstances the tenant may be in breach of their obligations under the Residential Tenancies Act and most likely the terms of their lease and that could have ramifications in relation to Part 4 Tenancies, the PRTB and any possibility of a renewal of a lease.


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    #51
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,325 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Duckjob wrote: »

    A visit from the Gardai and threat of prosecution for unlawful entry might help them realise the legal obligations that they MUST adhere to, whether it's convenient for them or not.

    Unless there is an allegation of theft, a forced entry or a reasonable apprehension of fear, any entry by the landlord or its agent is a civil wrong and nothing to do with the gardai. There is nothing for which they coud prosecute.


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    #52
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    No where does it say that they must take place at times wholly convenient to the tenant either, I fail to see why nor has anyone offered any basis for, the belief that a tenant's working hours are so sacrosanct that they cannot be disturbed to fulfill an obligation under a lease yet a LL or Agent's can be.

    No tenant is demanding that an agent or LL disturb their working hours. In fact most tenants would prefer no inspection at all. If you want to do an inspection you better ask nicely and ask does X time suit.


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    #53
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    No where does it say that they must take place at times wholly convenient to the tenant either, I fail to see why nor has anyone offered any basis for, the belief that a tenant's working hours are so sacrosanct that they cannot be disturbed to fulfill an obligation under a lease yet a LL or Agent's can be.

    A Tenant signs up to the lease just as much as the LL and the tenant also has obligations under it. The tenant has full knowledge of the obligations involved including the requirement to allow access for inspections. They should only sign if they are prepared to fulfill those obligations.

    Taken objectively a request that an inspection be carried out during normal working hours is far more reasonable for both parties than one that requires it to be carried out as late as 9pm as you have suggested. there are any number of alternatives, the tenant can arrange for someone else such as a friend or family member to be present or as is often the solution, to be done in their absence, a solution from which they will suffer no prejudice.

    For the record I'm not now, nor have I ever, suggested that in such circumstances a LL would be entitled to carry out an inspection in the tenant's absence without the tenant's permission. What I am saying is that in such circumstances the tenant may be in breach of their obligations under the Residential Tenancies Act and most likely the terms of their lease and that could have ramifications in relation to Part 4 Tenancies, the PRTB and any possibility of a renewal of a lease.

    This debate has gone as far as I think it can. I have no idea how you think it is reasonable for a landlord/agency to expect a tenant to rearrange their working hours so that they can accommodate an inspection at a wholey unreasonable time of the day, but you dont seem to understand where I am coming from so theres little point in me continuing.

    Suffice to say that if it were to go in front of the PRTB, and the tenant could show that they made the property available any evening of the landlords choosing, there is no way on earth the PRTB would rule against them, as they are making every reasonable effort to accommodate the landlords request for a property inspection.

    Renting is not a 9-5 Mon-Fri business; landlords do not and can not operate to normal working hours.


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    #54
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    No where does it say that they must take place at times wholly convenient to the tenant either, I fail to see why nor has anyone offered any basis for, the belief that a tenant's working hours are so sacrosanct that they cannot be disturbed to fulfill an obligation under a lease yet a LL or Agent's can be.

    Here's a difference for you. Tenant works 9-5 and has say, 1 hour commute each way (happens a lot). Agent wants to inspect at 4pm. Tenant has to leave work at 3pm to be home for the inspection. Costs the tenant 2 hours work.

    Agent doesn't lose any earnings by staying til 7. In fact, given that any viewings I've ever been to have happened in the evening it's actually WITHIN fairly normal working hours for the agent if they agree to 7pm.


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    #55
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    The issue is that some LLs don't realise that they are a service provider. They have a right to ensure their product it being used correctly but no tenant is going to jump through hoops to facilitate it. You could compare it to electricity meter readers.


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    #56
    discodavie
    Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭discodavie


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    I don't get how the PRTB could rule against the tenant at all for not facilitating an inspection. There is no obligation for an inspection to happen, just that if the LL requests one it should be with prior notice at a mutually agreed time.

    From the act

    Provisions regarding tenant’s obligations

    16.—In addition to the obligations arising by or under any other Obligations of enactment, a tenant of a dwelling shall—
    tenants.

    (c) allow, at reasonable intervals, the landlord, or any person or persons acting on the landlord’s behalf, access to the dwelling (on a date and time agreed in advance with the tenant) for the purposes of inspecting the dwelling,

    Nothing about whether or not the tenant is there

    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    Respectfully disagree.

    See above
    valleyoftheunos wrote: »
    Well I don't really see any grounds for any of your statements either in law or reason. Hence the disagreement.

    Well im gonna refer to the above.

    Most here are in somewhat of an agreemet on the fact that LL and LA are entitled to inspect

    So the debate comes down to the relationship you have with tenants or your LL.

    I only do an inspection after 3-4 months of a new tenancy and if not too happy then at same interval. Some tenants say go in , some make an appointment for a suitable time either way thats the job be it 10 am or 10pm its us who are deciding to do it.

    I'm only a few years in the business but if the tenant wants to be there and offers a slot of 6-9pm any day well id be there. 99% of my viewings are done in the evening anyway and if you took that to the prtb youd loose for sure.


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    #57
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    discodavie wrote: »
    From the act

    Provisions regarding tenant’s obligations

    16.—In addition to the obligations arising by or under any other Obligations of enactment, a tenant of a dwelling shall—
    tenants.

    (c) allow, at reasonable intervals, the landlord, or any person or persons acting on the landlord’s behalf, access to the dwelling (on a date and time agreed in advance with the tenant) for the purposes of inspecting the dwelling,

    Nothing about whether or not the tenant is there

    But you can't legally enter for an inspection without permission. If that permission is dependant on the tenant being with you then those are the rules.


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    #58
    discodavie
    Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭discodavie


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    But you can't legally enter for an inspection without permission. If that permission is dependant on the tenant being with you then those are the rules.

    agreed and not arguable except in opinion as the date and time must be agreed on


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    #59
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    discodavie wrote: »
    agreed and not arguable except in opinion as the date and time must be agreed on

    So if the tenant suggests any Sunday before 12 noon and Sundays don't suit the LL he can go without the inspection. Agreed?


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    #60
    discodavie
    Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭discodavie


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    So if the tenant suggests any Sunday before 12 noon and Sundays don't suit the LL he can go without the inspection. Agreed?

    No.

    Common sense to prevail. If in the case that a tenant works from 1pm that any day before 12 would be ok.

    That may not suit ll as he lives on the other side of the country.

    Tough as tenant makes place available for inspection as per the tenancy obligations.

    My experiences with the PRTB so far have been that if you make every reasonable effort and are responsible , professional and somewhat accomadating you will have no bother there.

    Or to put it another way :

    If tenant only offers you before 12 pm on Sunday and you cannot do that for whatever reason , you put in writing to tenant that inspection is a right of the LL , that unless the tenant could come to an arrangement regarding the inspection they will be in breach of thier obligations under the act.

    List out 5 or 6 times and days , say, sat before noon , Monday Wed anytime between 3-6 , tue Thursday 9am-1pm Friday afternoon but could arrange at whatever time suits as you try to spend Sunday with the family.

    If you did something like that and they still wouldn't accommodate they would be ,I'm my eyes in breach of thier obligations and would be subject to a NOT after a reasonable amount of time , say 2-3 weeks of trying


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