decline of english football

celtictiger32

ive noticed a slight tinge of panic in some of the english media recently over englands uefa coefficient ranking. with spain on top england look to fall to third with germany leapfrogging them into second. germanys domination of barcelona in the first leg semi final would seem like they will rule the roost for the next few seasons but who knows. if italy or france overtake england it would see them lose a champions league place, big spenders psg could see to that becoming a reality. man utd have won the english league but many would say they are well behind some of the leading euro clubs. will they lose a CL spot in the coming years and how far could they drop in the rankings?

DazMarz

Again?????

klose

Look at the list of semi finalists/ finalists and winners of the last few years and report back

So what you're saying is... is English football done?

murpho999

i think the ops post title should be 'decline of english language'

(Written in OP's style!).

NIMAN

If Madrid lose to Dortmund tomorrow will we see a thread about the decline of Spanish football?

Red Crow

I would of thought it was fairly obvious? With teams like Man City and Chelsea whom have such a high will to spend and attempt to mount countless of players together it then damages the league as a whole. Man City have lots of strong players but none of real European experience except for Tevez and Toure. They've performed poorly largely becuase they have gotten tough draws but also becuase they aren't situated to European football. These financial juggernauts have the expense to buy most players in the league.

I also think that the decline of Liverpool has also coincided with the decline of English teams performances in the Champions League as a whole. However, these things swing in roundabouts and as the Premier League sides adjust to having a competitive top 5/6 sides then over the next few years you'd expect the likes of Man City to improve their European performance massively.

I think also English teams aren't producing their own youngsters on the same level that German and Spanish teams are. Also I don't think that English sides have the same grip on their league as the top two in Spain and Germany do.

Ultimately I think bad management at Liverpool, Chelsea and Man City have hampered the European success of English teams whilst also hindering their domestic success. Continental european players seem to be more attracted to German and Spanish teams rather than the English teams as it was 5/6 years ago. It'll all swing back again as English teams will probably improve greatly over the next Summer.

theoneeyedman

I dunno I think the op makes a valid enough point. Obviously, around these parts, any questioning that the EPL and in particular Man U are the bestest in the whole wide world are going to be ridiculed. However, United won the league at a canter, wwithout a functioning midfield, City have dropped way off last years level, Chelsea are a basket case and this is one of the weakest Arsenal sides in the last 10 years. Even Spurs are close to Champions league without having a functioning forward line, and as for Liverpool, less said tge better.

It is clear that overall, English teams have dropped off of the top European level over the last 2 years ( notwithstanding Chelseas freakish CL win last year). I'm not saying it's in terminal decline, but it will be interesting to see how it pans out over the coming years, especially if UEFA have yhe balls to enforce financial fair play rules

mike65

Didn't we do this thread about a month ago?

Neil3030

Well tonight one team absolutely murdered another team who themselves would absolutely murder every team in the Premiership at present.

PhlegmyMoses

Neil3030 wrote: »

Well tonight one team absolutely murdered another team who themselves would absolutely murder every team in the Premiership at present.

But then Arsenal murdered the first team a month ago. Doesn't work like that.

mike65

I think Barca have been rumbled, they can't defend. If they don't have the ball in the areas they want it they are impotent.

celtictiger32

first of all apologies if there was another similar thread i just had a quick look and didnt see one, ive just been reading a few articles on it in english media pages. secondly i dont know why some of the funny fvckers bother with the stupid comments at the beginning of threads presumably trying to boost their 'thanks' count.

i was merely posing the situation if englands ranking would see them drop a CL spot and would this see them fall even further. i think it is very possible that italy could catch them and france too. yes chelsea and man city have the big bucks but it hasnt done them much good this year even though chelsea are still in the EL its not really where they want to be. i agree with an above poster where the english teams are not producing enough top class players from the younger ranks, surely that will also have a bearing on their national side long term.

celtictiger32

celtictiger32 wrote: »

i was merely posing the situation if englands ranking would see them drop a CL spot and would this see them fall even further. i think it is very possible that italy could catch them and france too. yes chelsea and man city have the big bucks but it hasnt done them much good this year even though chelsea are still in the EL its not really where they want to be. i agree with an above poster where the english teams are not producing enough top class players from the younger ranks, surely that will also have a bearing on their national side long term.

Have you looked at the co-efficients? England will "lose" ~4 points at the end of the season to France and Italy but Spurs are still in Europe while no French or Italian teams are. England will still be at least 12-13 points ahead at the start of next season assuming Spurs do nothing, it'll take another 2-3 years the same as this year for England to lose a spot and I can't see them doing as badly in the CL against next season for a start.

Xavi6

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you looked at the co-efficients? England will "lose" ~4 points at the end of the season to France and Italy but Spurs are still in Europe while no French or Italian teams are. England will still be at least 12-13 points ahead at the start of next season assuming Spurs do nothing, it'll take another 2-3 years the same as this year for England to lose a spot and I can't see them doing as badly in the CL against next season for a start.

You mean Chelsea

Blatter

Just had a look at the coefficients and it doesn't seem England are in any danger of losing the 4th CL spot anytime soon. Italy are a fair bit outside. Spain, England and Germany are all fairly close.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient#Current_ranking

monkey9

I'd say overall, English and in general British football is ok at the moment, OP. Nothing to worry about!

Duck Soup

Here's the thing. Did anyone have an English side marked down to win the Champions League this year?

What about next year?

Kirby

Duck Soup wrote: »

Here's the thing. Did anyone have an English side marked down to win the Champions League this year?

What about next year?

If Chelsea get Jose back and if City get a better manager.........both could be serious, serious contenders. It's also worth remembering that United were unlucky against Madrid and easily could have gone through.

English football is fine. People just get carried away.

larchielads

here is a break down of what european countries have been most dominant since the formation of the champs league.

Finalists: Winners:

Italy 11 Spain 6
Spain 9 Italy 5
England 9 England 4
Germany 6 Germany 2
France 2 France 1
Holland 2 Holland 1
Portugal 1 Portugal 1

Italy have been the most "dominant" if you like if you add the amount times they've been to a final and the amount of times they've won(16)

Spain come second with (15)

England third (13)

Germany fourth (8)

France and Holland tie for fifth (3)

Portugal sixth (1)

But obviously Spain has the most wins in the comp with 6 so i suppose they're really the "dominant" force.

The English clubs aren't really in that much of a decline they're only 2 wins behind(4) the dominant Spanish clubs(6) from a competition that been running for the last 21 years.

Xavi6

Xavi6 wrote: »

You mean Chelsea

I do.

Duck Soup

Kirby wrote: »

If Chelsea get Jose back and if City get a better manager.........both could be serious, serious contenders. It's also worth remembering that United were unlucky against Madrid and easily could have gone through.

English football is fine. People just get carried away.

Everyone's in with a shout. All I'm saying is that the outset of the year, if you had to pick one team, which would it be? I would have said Barca (like most everyone else), with Bayern as strong contenders. An English team - and I say this as a lifelong Chelsea fan - wouldn't have figured in my reckoning.

So yes, always in with a shout but I would have been surprised to see any of them figure in a final this year or next. Chelsea leaks goals, Man U's midfield looks weak by European standards and Man City are erratic.

I'm not getting carried away. I'm just saying none of the current English teams are particularly good by European standards.

Liam O

Duck Soup wrote: »

Everyone's in with a shout. All I'm saying is that the outset of the year, if you had to pick one team, which would it be? I would have said Barca (like most everyone else), with Bayern as strong contenders. An English team - and I say this as a lifelong Chelsea fan - wouldn't have figured in my reckoning.

So yes, always in with a shout but I would have been surprised to see any of them figure in a final this year or next. Chelsea leaks goals, Man U's midfield looks weak by European standards and Man City are erratic.

I'm not getting carried away. I'm just saying none of the current English teams are particularly good by European standards.

At the start of this season would you have thought that both Chelsea and City would be knocked out in the group stage?

Before the knockout draw would you have thought that both United and Arsenal wouldn't make the quarter finals?

This year is an anomaly. There will be at least 3, probably 4 english teams in the last 16 next season and if they can avoid the big 3 until the quarters or 1 or 2 of them until the semis then they all stand a great chance. United's weak midfield was good enough against Real when the teams were even, City had a few injuries this season and a manager who wasn't playing his best team.

German football is in a bubble now imo due to the strength of Bayern and Dortmund. Dortmund wont stay in the elite group of European teams and will be a bit of a Lyon type situation imo. Always in the quarters but unable to take that final step, selling their crown jewel to their biggest domestic rivals is an indicator that they wont be at the top echelon for long imo.

City, Chelsea, United, Arsenal and Spurs are all going to get better throughout the offseason too. Decline of the league? Something people say to make it look like they watch more worldwide football than the people they talk to.

12gauge dave

The big investment in homegrown youth is the big diference i feel. we have to import out best players while spain and germany are id say atleast 60% homegrown youth.
I remember a few months back barcelona had all 11 players on the pitch come through thier academy,thats a fantastic achievment.
It was a poor year for the premier league in europe and domestically too with man united tearing away with it whilst being very consistent not great to be fair.
Still by far the most entertaining league in my opinion

Duck Soup

Liam O wrote: »

At the start of this season would you have thought that both Chelsea and City would be knocked out in the group stage?

Before the knockout draw would you have thought that both United and Arsenal wouldn't make the quarter finals?

No. One more time I'm saying that at the start of the CL season, I couldn't see any English team winning the trophy. There are too many weakness in each English team to compete successfully over the length of the competition against the likes of Bayern, Barcelona and Real Madrid.

Make up your own mind as to whether there's been a decline in English football or whether other teams have simply gotten better.

The_Kew_Tour

In 2 years time we could be talking about Spanish football, then German, then back to England.

These things go around in circles.

Liam O

Duck Soup wrote: »

No. One more time I'm saying that at the start of the CL season, I couldn't see any English team winning the trophy. There are too many weakness in each English team to compete successfully over the length of the competition against the likes of Bayern, Barcelona and Real Madrid.

Make up your own mind as to whether there's been a decline in English football or whether other teams have simply gotten better.

So you didn't see a City team with a mean defense, very solid CM and the likes of Silva, Aguero, Yaya etc. going forward as a contender? I certainly did. 2 of the semi finalists were in their group. It was just mistakes at the back which they weren't really making in the league at that time that cost them.

You didn't see a United team that added one of the best strikers in the world and one of the best players in Germany to a team that though they went out in the group stage last season, still had basically the same core as the one that made the final in 2011 as contenders? They just about got beat by the team who are one of the likely winners of the tournament.

Chelsea who won it last season? Alright they were obviously going to miss Drogba, but with Mata getting better and the addition of Hazard and Oscar they were more than capable of improving overall on last season.

Arsenal obviously were going to be going through a transition but still a lot of really good players there, capable of beating anyone.

Anyone talking about a decline is deluding themselves imo and it will show next season and in the Summer when all of these teams make serious signings.

gosplan

Poor league this year IMO.

No complete team in the entire league.

Man U were having a laugh for the first six months - conceding the first goal and then coming back just to show they could.

I know that it doesn't work like that but it was kind if like someone playing against their kid brother most of the time.

There are no complete teams this year. Man U could be but it hasn't been necessary.

Neil3030

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

But then Arsenal murdered the first team a month ago. Doesn't work like that.

Only because Arsenal had been murdered in the first leg and Bayern were complacent. Very much an exception to the overall picture.

Liam O

gosplan wrote: »

Poor league this year IMO.

No complete team in the entire league.

Man U were having a laugh for the first six months - conceding the first goal and then coming back just to show they could.

I know that it doesn't work like that but it was kind if like someone playing against their kid brother most of the time.

There are no complete teams this year. Man U could be but it hasn't been necessary.

United's main problem has been the lack of consistent personnel and tactics. Fergie was trying a couple of formations early in the season just to give players games and the squad is quite deep but also slightly bloated. There is one too many strikers at the club and one too many backup centre mids. Anderson, despite being impressive for the first time in years was relegated to the bench and god knows what's happening with Nani. Can see them both turning into good additions to whoever comes in for them, Nani a great one provided he gets the game time. Welbeck would be my choice for the striker option to go but I do like his versatility and think he could do well in a deeper role, if Dembele was able to be moulded into a CM then Welbeck can too imo. Dembele does still lack positioning a lot of the time though still. Still too many players with something to prove and not enough squad space for them imo.

Dempsey

English Football has definately taken a step back this season, whether it can gain that ground on the Bundesliga or La Liga is another question.

Going forward, i think the German Bundesliga is well ahead of any other league in many aspects of how its run and how the clubs run themselves.

Jax Teller

Top 2 in Spain & Bayern are better than Man Utd & City, probably Dortmund at the moment also but they won't keep this up .

But when you compare the rest of the top 4/5 teams though I'd consider Spurs/Arsenal/Chelsea stronger than Atl Madrid/Real Sociedad/Valencia & B Leverkusen/Schalke 04/SC Freiburg all day long .

Madworld

12gauge dave wrote: »

The big investment in homegrown youth is the big diference i feel. we have to import out best players while spain and germany are id say atleast 60% homegrown youth.
I remember a few months back barcelona had all 11 players on the pitch come through thier academy,thats a fantastic achievment.
It was a poor year for the premier league in europe and domestically too with man united tearing away with it whilst being very consistent not great to be fair.
Still by far the most entertaining league in my opinion

"We" eh......... :cool:

Duck Soup

Liam O wrote: »

So you didn't see a City team with a mean defense, very solid CM and the likes of Silva, Aguero, Yaya etc. going forward as a contender? I certainly did. 2 of the semi finalists were in their group. It was just mistakes at the back which they weren't really making in the league at that time that cost them.

You didn't see a United team that added one of the best strikers in the world and one of the best players in Germany to a team that though they went out in the group stage last season, still had basically the same core as the one that made the final in 2011 as contenders? They just about got beat by the team who are one of the likely winners of the tournament.

Chelsea who won it last season? Alright they were obviously going to miss Drogba, but with Mata getting better and the addition of Hazard and Oscar they were more than capable of improving overall on last season.

Arsenal obviously were going to be going through a transition but still a lot of really good players there, capable of beating anyone.

Anyone talking about a decline is deluding themselves imo and it will show next season and in the Summer when all of these teams make serious signings.

I'll just end up repeating myself - Chelsea ship goals; United so-so midfield; City erratic.

But you're onto something about City having two semi-finalists in their group. My point is that that other teams have made greater strides forward and the English teams - for all their strengths - I wouldn't have seen progressing to the final. And so it's proved.

For the sake of clarity, I don't think the English teams are in decline. But I do think other teams have made bigger improvements.

So I return to my original premise. Who do you see winning it next year? An English team? At this moment in time - and after last night's match - I'd say Bayern.

If you had to choose one team to win it in 2014, who would it be?

Liam O

Duck Soup wrote: »

I'll just end up repeating myself - Chelsea ship goals; United so-so midfield; City erratic.

But you're onto something about City having two semi-finalists in their group. My point is that that other teams have made greater strides forward and the English teams - for all their strengths - I wouldn't have seen progressing to the final. And so it's proved.

For the sake of clarity, I don't think the English teams are in decline. But I do think other teams have made bigger improvements.

So I return to my original premise. Who do you see winning it next year? An English team? At this moment in time - and after last night's match - I'd say Bayern.

If you had to choose one team to win it in 2014, who would it be?

Fair enough point I guess. The big English teams are in transition though and there is a large turnover of players. When this stabilises, which could very well be this coming season then they will be back deep in the knockout stages.

Vurnon San Benito

To be honest, I don't think there's any arguing the fact English football is behind the likes of Germany, Spain. The way in which it is run is the main reason for that.

I think the last two EPL campaigns are indicative of the decline of the game in England. Don't get me wrong, I think last season was an unbelievable one (NUFC finishing 5th :pac: and the last day title race), but there is a little bit of a gap developing yet again - but scarily, not just between Top 4, its more of a top half division, the rest below seem light years away.

Maybe that's just me. We need to follow the German league though, so attacking, so well run, such entertainment; exactly what the beautiful game should be about.

CSF

Liam O wrote: »

if Dembele was able to be moulded into a CM then Welbeck can too imo.

Wut

Blatter

Neil3030 wrote: »

Only because Arsenal had been murdered in the first leg and Bayern were complacent. Very much an exception to the overall picture.

Tbh, I could easily see Barcelona being done at United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs or even Liverpool/Everton.

It was a very similar performance to their Milan away one, toothless in attack and terrible at the back. And Milan aren't a very good side.

Dempsey

Jax Teller wrote: »

Top 2 in Spain & Bayern are better than Man Utd & City, probably Dortmund at the moment also but they won't keep this up .

But when you compare the rest of the top 4/5 teams though I'd consider Spurs/Arsenal/Chelsea stronger than Atl Madrid/Real Sociedad/Valencia & B Leverkusen/Schalke 04/SC Freiburg all day long .

More evidence pointing to the contrary

Jax Teller

Dempsey wrote: »

More evidence pointing to the contrary

Which evidence is this ?
They're losing Gotze & Lewandowski has said he's not signing a new contract . Klopp is hot property right now wouldn't surprise me to see him move on also .

Dempsey

Jax Teller wrote: »

Which evidence is this ?
Their losing Gotze & Lewandowski has said he's not signing a new contract . Klopp is hot property right now wouldn't surprise me to see him move on also .

I misread your post, thought you said Bayern wouldnt be able to keep up


Dortmund do seem to be selling off star players without replacing them properly alright. The German Arsenal...

Oat23

Dempsey wrote: »

Dortmund do seem to be selling off star players without replacing them properly alright. The German Arsenal...

You could give them a chance to replace them before calling them the German Arsenal. It's only April.

What big players have they not replaced recently?

Sahin? Gündogan
Kagawa? Reus

Both improvements for me. Lewandowski is replaceable. Götze isn't, but they can sure as hell get a pretty decent player with the €37m they got for him.

Dempsey

Oatesy23 wrote: »

You could give them a chance to replace them before calling them the German Arsenal. It's only April.

What big players have they not replaced recently?

Sahin? Gündogan
Kagawa? Reus

Both improvements for me. Lewandowski is replaceable. Götze isn't, but they can sure as hell get a pretty decent player with the €37m they got for him.

I dont think you can build a strong team mentality by constantly selling key players. Those replacements are certainly good but I dont see Dortmund improving until they hold onto their key players and then add more quality. If they can improve whilst maintaining the current transfer policy, i'll be first to congratulate them.

I would agree with you about Lewandowski & Gotze aswell.

celtictiger32

12gauge dave wrote: »

The big investment in homegrown youth is the big diference i feel. we have to import out best players while spain and germany are id say atleast 60% homegrown youth.
I remember a few months back barcelona had all 11 players on the pitch come through thier academy,thats a fantastic achievment.
It was a poor year for the premier league in europe and domestically too with man united tearing away with it whilst being very consistent not great to be fair.
Still by far the most entertaining league in my opinion

out of curiosity, where are you from?

If things stay as they are it'll mean that there's only been a Spanish team in one final in the last 4 years, let's talk about the decline of the Spanish game.

Dempsey

Deleted User wrote: »

If things stay as they are it'll mean that there's only been a Spanish team in one final in the last 4 years, let's talk about the decline of the Spanish game.

Thats last years news

DazMarz

Bear in mind, until Bayern Munich made an appearance in the Champions League Final in 2010, a German team hadn't appeared in the Final since 2002, and a German team haven't won the competition since 2001 (although that is likely to change this year, unless Madrid and Barca have miracles on their side).

In that time (the 8/9 year gap), English clubs have won the Champions League in 2005, 2008 and 2012. And there have been English finalists in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2012. That is very impressive. And you can be damn sure that the 4 English sides in next season's Champions League will not put in such poor shifts as they did this year (although, that is harsh on United; they were on the wrong side of a very dubious red card decision and up until then looked good against Madrid).

To say that English clubs are declining, I would look back over the last 10 years or so of European football and get back to me.

For god's sake, if we're to take such short term criteria into consideration, going on last night and tonight, Spanish football is in utter and complete freefall and disarray! :pac:

Duck Soup

DazMarz wrote: »

Bear in mind, until Bayern Munich made an appearance in the Champions League Final in 2010, a German team hadn't appeared in the Final since 2002, and a German team haven't won the competition since 2001 (although that is likely to change this year, unless Madrid and Barca have miracles on their side).

In that time (the 8/9 year gap), English clubs have won the Champions League in 2005, 2008 and 2012. And there have been English finalists in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2012. That is very impressive. And you can be damn sure that the 4 English sides in next season's Champions League will not put in such poor shifts as they did this year (although, that is harsh on United; they were on the wrong side of a very dubious red card decision and up until then looked good against Madrid).

To say that English clubs are declining, I would look back over the last 10 years or so of European football and get back to me.

For god's sake, if we're to take such short term criteria into consideration, going on last night and tonight, Spanish football is in utter and complete freefall and disarray! :pac:

Looking at it purely on the current standards of play, do any of the English teams bear comparison with Barca, Bayern or Dortmund? (RM I think grind out results and play in a disjointed manner for the quality of players that they have).

DazMarz

At the moment? No. English sides are riddled with specific weaknesses that mean they could not, at this moment in time, compete at the top level.

But during the summer, all English sides will strengthen and next season will be "interesting" to say the least.

St.Spodo

Fantastic to see the German model of nurturing skillful homegrown talent succeed. It's also great to see the connection the fans have with the players and the support they give the players.

kksaints

DazMarz wrote: »

Bear in mind, until Bayern Munich made an appearance in the Champions League Final in 2010, a German team hadn't appeared in the Final since 2002, and a German team haven't won the competition since 2001 (although that is likely to change this year, unless Madrid and Barca have miracles on their side).

In that time (the 8/9 year gap), English clubs have won the Champions League in 2005, 2008 and 2012. And there have been English finalists in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2012. That is very impressive. And you can be damn sure that the 4 English sides in next season's Champions League will not put in such poor shifts as they did this year (although, that is harsh on United; they were on the wrong side of a very dubious red card decision and up until then looked good against Madrid).

To say that English clubs are declining, I would look back over the last 10 years or so of European football and get back to me.

For god's sake, if we're to take such short term criteria into consideration, going on last night and tonight, Spanish football is in utter and complete freefall and disarray! :pac:

Just another thing to note. Germans teams records in the Europa League/UEFA Cup is very poor only 2 finalists since 1997 when they last won it (Schalke) and no teams left in this year tournament.