HEC SF: Saracens vs Toulon, Sunday 28th April 3pm; Sky Sports 1

thomond2006

The battle of the unpopular clubs! For you neutrals it may be difficult to decide who you want to support here!

Toulon's 29-man squad:
Forwards: Steffon Armitage, Bakkies Botha, Virgile Bruni, Sebastien Bruno, Rocky Elsom, Juan Martin Fernandez-Lobbe, Carl Hayman, Gethin Jenkins, Nick Kennedy, Davit Kubriashvili, Chris Masoe, Jean Charles Orioli, Danie Rossouw, Simon Shaw, Andrew Sheridan, Jocelino Suta, Joe van Niekerk.

Backs: Delon Armitage, Mathieu Bastareaud, Nicolas Durand, Matt Giteau, Vincent Martin, Maxime Mermoz, Fred Michalak, Alexis Palisson, Jonny Wilkinson, David Smith, Sebastien Tillous-Borde, Rudi Wulf.

Orioli, Roussouw and Michalak are all back from injury, with Elsom also making an extended squad for the first time since signing a medical joker contract a few weeks ago.

Possible team:
Sheridan, Orioli, Hayman, Kennedy, Botha, Lobbe, S Armitage, Masoe;
Tillous-Borde, Wilkinson, Wulf, Giteau, Basteraud, Palisson, D Armitage (:rolleyes:)

Bench: Bruno, Jenkins, Kubriashvili, Roussouw, Van Niekerk, Michalak, Mermoz, Martin

No squad news from Saracens as yet, except that flanker Will Fraser is out.

ALLEZ RCT

Rightwing

Toulon

I'm going for Sarries, can't understand all this dislike for them. They are good enough to beat the sugardaddys at home, certainly they'd be as big outsiders as we are if this match was on in sth of france.

awec

Neither?!

Hope Toulon absolutely destroy them. Literally wipe the floor with them.

thomond2006

Neither?!

Rightwing wrote: »

I'm going for Sarries, can't understand all this dislike for them.

Here's a good start: http://www.times-series.co.uk/sport/10265280.Supporters_express_disgust_as_Saracens__fat_lady__sings_again/

There was also the controversy with the PA during the visit of Munster, where the club got heavily criticised by their own supporters for the unsportsmanlike carry on.

P_1

Toulon for me, lesser of the 2 evils. At least it's not Sarries v Ra€ing

Rightwing

Toulon

awec wrote: »

Hope Toulon absolutely destroy them. Literally wipe the floor with them.

That is funny, but why? Is it because they turned Ulster over?

thomond2006

Neither?!

Rightwing wrote: »

I'm going for Sarries, can't understand all this dislike for them. They are good enough to beat the sugardaddys at home, certainly they'd be as big outsiders as we are if this match was on in sth of france.

Saracens have a history of being sugardaddys as well to be fair, you can't throw that term at just Toulon.

Obviously I'm biased since I've been a fan of Toulon since living in France, but at least RCT have history. Very vocal supporters too.

Taco Corp

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/181230.html

not exactly going to be a sell out.

thomond2006

Neither?!

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/181230.html

not exactly going to be a sell out.

Cheapest ticket is £35 (€41). That wasn't very clever.

I bet the ERC regret that this fixture wasn't in Marseille, would have probably sold out.

sydthebeat

Neither?!

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/181230.html

not exactly going to be a sell out.

just looking at those stats.. .leinster v munster croke park 2009 will never be beaten for attendance

.ak

Rightwing wrote: »

I'm going for Sarries, can't understand all this dislike for them. They are good enough to beat the sugardaddys at home, certainly they'd be as big outsiders as we are if this match was on in sth of france.

• Exhibit A) The players; Ashton, Farrell, Borthwick, Stevens, etc
• Exhibit Off-field antics, using the wolf/wolfpack PR thing, blaring PA music over opposition fans, having 'fat lady' sing before match is over...
• Exhibit C) The most boring brand of Rugby, ever.
• Exhibit D) Play their 'home' games thousands miles away from fans.
• Exhibit E) Did I mention the boring rugby?

totallegend

Neither?!

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/181230.html

not exactly going to be a sell out.

Oh dear.

Saracens paying the price for moving their home games all over the shop? I wonder has any marketing been done?

.ak

sydthebeat wrote: »

just looking at those stats.. .leinster v munster croke park 2009 will never be beaten for attendance

Yeah, that's another reason I'd add onto the list, their fans! Jesus if an Irish team was playing in Twickers for a semi the place would be full.

Rightwing

Toulon

.ak wrote: »

• Exhibit A) The players; Ashton, Farrell, Borthwick, Stevens, etc
• Exhibit Off-field antics, using the wolf/wolfpack PR thing, blaring PA music over opposition fans, having 'fat lady' sing before match is over...
• Exhibit C) The most boring brand of Rugby, ever.
• Exhibit D) Play their 'home' games thousands miles away from fans.
• Exhibit E) Did I mention the boring rugby?

Certainly (B) that's awful.

Of the players, Ashton is the only 1, I don't like his antics.

thomond2006

Neither?!

.ak wrote: »

• Exhibit A) The players; Ashton, Farrell, Borthwick, Stevens, etc
• Exhibit Off-field antics, using the wolf/wolfpack PR thing, blaring PA music over opposition fans, having 'fat lady' sing before match is over...
• Exhibit C) The most boring brand of Rugby, ever.
• Exhibit D) Play their 'home' games thousands miles away from fans.
• Exhibit E) Did I mention the boring rugby?

Tbh Toulon are worse than Saracens in terms of Exhibit A, with just one player in particular. Did I mention I was supporting 22 and not 23 Toulon players for this game?

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

Tbh Toulon are worse than Saracens in terms of Exhibit A, with just one player in particular. Did I mention I was supporting 22 and not 23 Toulon players for this game?

I don't mind the Toulon players. They're dickish, but you know what you get with them. Bakkies is the best example. He's a thug on the field, but I'd love to have him on my team.

thomond2006

Neither?!

.ak wrote: »

I don't mind the Toulon players. They're dickish, but you know what you get with them. Bakkies is the best example. He's a thug on the field, but I'd love to have him on my team.

I was really only refering to Delon there, he just takes the biscuit. Would agree on the Bakkies comment.

Lelantos

I'm impartial, I don't care who beats Sarries.
But realistically, I can't see Sarries winning this whatsoever

awec

Neither?!

Rightwing wrote: »

That is funny, but why? Is it because they turned Ulster over?

Not at all.

I dislike them, I dislike their style and I really really really don't like Chris Ashton.

Larbre34

I do love a high quality neutral clash of a Sunday afternoon.

I suspect Ashton brings a whole continent of dislike to his club. Brendan Venter was another good reason to dislike them previously, an utter fool. I hope Mark McCall achieves good success as a coach, just not at Sarries.

So, despite their similarly mercenary nature, Toulon abú, and I think they have all the components to prevail.

P_1

A Delon v Ashton hissy fit would make the match for me

Taco Corp

sydthebeat wrote: »

just looking at those stats.. .leinster v munster croke park 2009 will never be beaten for attendance

Bad news, it was already beaten. By Saracens...

http://www.rugbyweek.com/news/article.asp?id=34553

.ak

We still hold the record for a H-cup knock out game attendance tho.

jamiedav2011

I fcuking hate both of these clubs, so not really pushed as long as they're beaten in the final.

Would think Toulon will take this one, but it could be an absolutely dire game.

justsomebloke

If Munster win I hope Toulon get through, if Clermont win I would prefer Saracens.

I think an Irish-French or Anglo-French final is probably more appealing then an all French Final. Especially as Tickets will be hard to come by for each set of supporters

Lelantos

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

I fcuking hate both of these clubs, so not really pushed as long as they're beaten in the final.

Would think Toulon will take this one, but it could be an absolutely dire game.

Add to that, Drew Mitchell has been confirmed as a Toulon signing today, even more reason to dislike moneybags

thomond2006

Neither?!

Mad Mourad reckons that plenty English will shout for Wilkinson, it will be interesting to see if he's right!

WorldRugby99

I dont get the dislike for either-rugbys about winning games and both are pretty good at that.

toulon are ambitious-whats wrong with that in the pro sporting world? Look at clermont,racing metro etc- havent they spent heavily on players too? racing metro so far signed j kruger,s tongauiha,b mujati,j roberts,d lydiate and j sexton for next season-do we start hating metro too? clermont seem to attract liitle criticism for some reason-but they bought majority of their squad just the same-they just done it more gradually-but they have few homegrown players just the same.

Munster play some pretty unentertaining rugby yet they win its 'heroic' yet a club like sarries win its awful,ugly rugby.

clermont have bought success just like toulon and munster play no better than saracens-people should be a bit fairer on here

thomond2006

Neither?!

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

I dont get the dislike for either-rugbys about winning games and both are pretty good at that.

toulon are ambitious-whats wrong with that in the pro sporting world? Look at clermont,racing metro etc- havent they spent heavily on players too? racing metro so far signed j kruger,s tongauiha,b mujati,j roberts,d lydiate and j sexton for next season-do we start hating metro too? clermont seem to attract liitle criticism for some reason-but they bought majority of their squad just the same-they just done it more gradually-but they have few homegrown players just the same.

Munster play some pretty unentertaining rugby yet they win its 'heroic' yet a club like sarries win its awful,ugly rugby.

clermont have bought success just like toulon and munster play no better than saracens-people should be a bit fairer on here

Clermont have more French players in their side and contribute more players to the national team in general than Toulon or Racing Métro. Another reason they attract little criticism is their style of play, they use their great players the way they should be used.

On Toulon, yes there is nothing wrong with ambition in a professional sport but there's plenty wrong there. Boudjellal is a very hateable character, he celebrated on the pitch with the players after the Leicester win and the camera kept panning to him. There's a touch of the Abramovich's about him, I get the feeling he thinks he is the club. I wish he'd just sit in the stands and keep his mouth shut. They have brilliant home support in a small yet fantastic stadium (a minute walk from the sea!) but Boudjellal's antics are distasteful at best.

Munster have tried to play rugby but it just hasn't worked.

WorldRugby99

thomond2006 wrote: »

Clermont have more French players in their side and contribute more players to the national team in general than Toulon or Racing Métro. Another reason they attract little criticism is their style of play, they use their great players the way they should be.

Munster have tried to play rugby but it just hasn't worked.

most of the top french players are contracted to clermont and toulouse so how can toulon join that group without signing foreign stars? its a bit like saying how can connacht ever be successful-you arent going to get top stars from the other irish provinces joining are you?
'im sure toulon know long term they need to invest in youth teams and from what i read that is exactly what they are doing.
There are only a select number of top french internationals out there. the clubs cant all have loads.clermont,toulouse just got there first!clermont are stacked with foreign players too lets not forget and if they didnt develop the french talent-how can you say they are a product of clermont-its a stupid argument to say they contribute to french team etc.
the club that initially develops is the contributor.

P_1

Have to say that I'm surprised at the dislike of Toulon and Boudjellal.

Surely there's nothing wrong with a local who did well for themselves in business pumping money into their local team.

thomond2006

Neither?!

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

most of the top french players are contracted to clermont and toulouse so how can toulon join that group without signing foreign stars? its a bit like saying how can connacht ever be successful-you arent going to get top stars from the other irish provinces joining are you?
'im sure toulon know long term they need to invest in youth teams and from what i read that is exactly what they are doing.
There are only a select number of top french internationals out there. the clubs cant all have loads.clermont,toulouse just got there first!clermont are stacked with foreign players too lets not forget and if they didnt develop the french talent-how can you say they are a product of clermont-its a stupid argument to say they contribute to french team etc.
the club that initially develops is the contributor.

Good post, I can't argue with much there.

One thing:
Toulon signed a lot of journeymen foreigners over the years to go along with the great stars like Wilkinson, Giteau, Lobbe et al (I can name a few if you wish) I'd say there was plenty of French players from lower T14 clubs that could have done an equal job. They have finally settled on a great squad after panic buying for a couple of seasons. So while you're right in saying that there's only a few top level french players, Toulon went to a ridiculous level at times. They probably felt they had in order to get places but that's arguable.

P_1 wrote: »

Have to say that I'm surprised at the dislike of Toulon and Boudjellal.

Surely there's nothing wrong with a local who did well for themselves in business pumping money into their local team.

There isn't, it's great for the local economy. There were 1,500 Leicester supporters in Toulon for the quarter-final, that's a lot of money coming in.

However Boudjellal is just way too outspoken, his opinion shouldn't mean anything. He is at all the press conferences and sits in the technical area with the players. Look, it's his baby and I suppose he is entitled to do what he likes but I don't like it.

errlloyd

lol 20,000 fans in hilarious.

I appreciate that almost no Toulon fans will travel, but 35 quid for a ticket when its the first time your team have made the semi final, and the final is going to be in another country is actually good value imo.

They have a realistic chance of winning in Europe and their fans don't give a damn?

thomond2006

Neither?!

Jonny Wilkinson has a 91% tackle success rate in the Heineken Cup this season, missing only 3 out of 32 attempts.

irishbucsfan

errlloyd wrote: »

lol 20,000 fans in hilarious.

I appreciate that almost no Toulon fans will travel, but 35 quid for a ticket when its the first time your team have made the semi final, and the final is going to be in another country is actually good value imo.

They have a realistic chance of winning in Europe and their fans don't give a damn?

The fans they crammed into Twickers in the past are soccer fans first and foremost. They are preoccupied at this end of the season with some sort of soccering or other perhaps.

I'm not really that surprised. They should have had a tier of much cheaper tickets and pushed really really hard to sell them. Or else stayed in Barnet at 50 quid a ticket.

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

Jonny Wilkinson has a 91% tackle success rate in the Heineken Cup this season, missing only 3 out of 32 attempts.

Show pony.

CIARAN_BOYLE

P_1 wrote: »

Have to say that I'm surprised at the dislike of Toulon and Boudjellal.

Surely there's nothing wrong with a local who did well for themselves in business pumping money into their local team.

To be honest I have more issues with his hissy fits to the press and his arrogance in the media.

Winters

sydthebeat wrote: »

just looking at those stats.. .leinster v munster croke park 2009 will never be beaten for attendance

Possible in Wembley Stadium or Nou Camp.

I think as a club match it was beaten by a Sarries game in Wembley a year or so ago.

Teferi

thomond2006 wrote: »

Jonny Wilkinson has a 91% tackle success rate in the Heineken Cup this season, missing only 3 out of 32 attempts.

Lot of love for that guy, still a cracking player.

thomond2006

Neither?!

Danie Roussouw starts in the backrow despite lacking gametime. I'm guessing that his selection has been made to add physicality and a lineout option. Van Niekerk and Steffon Armitage will offer great impact off the bench.

By the way, I'll be supporting the following players:

totallegend

Neither?!

Interesting that Steffon Armitage is on the bench but they really do have ridiculous options in the back row. Having Michalak covering 9 and 10 allows a 6-2 split on the bench and given the sort of game plan Sarries are likely to come out with, having fresh legs in the pack isn't a bad idea. I think Toulon have looked better with Tillous-Borde at 9, bit more of a conventional 9-10 partnership.

4 Frenchmen in the XV...

jamiedav2011

That Toulon team really is insane.

Munster have Butler to come on in the backrow, Clermont have Lapandry, Toulon have Van Niekerk and Armitage! With just Rocky Elsom as a reserve!

molloyjh

totallegend wrote: »

4 Frenchmen in the XV...

That's just feckin' crazy.

awec

Neither?!

TOULONNAIS ALLEZ ALLEZ ALLEZ

thomond2006

Neither?!

Saracens:
15 Alex Goode, 14 Chris Ashton, 13 Joel Tomkins, 12 Brad Barritt, 11 David Strettle, 10 Owen Farrell, 9 Richard Wigglesworth,
8 Ernst Joubert, 7 Kelly Brown, 6 Jackson Wray, 5 Alistair Hargreaves, 4 Steve Borthwick, 3 Matt Stevens, 2 Schalk Brits, 1 Mako Vunipola.

Replacements: 16 John Smit, 17 Rhys Gill, 18 Carlos Nieto, 19 Mouritz Botha, 20 George Kruis, 21 Neil de Kock, 22 Charlie Hodgson, 23 Chris Wyles.

thomond2006

Neither?!

ALLEZ LES ROUGES ET NOIRS!

CatFromHue

thomond2006 wrote: »

ALLEZ LES ROUGES ET NOIRS!

I didn't know you were such a Saracens fan :pac:

irishbucsfan

I'll have to support Sarries because noone else will

thomond2006

Neither?!

CatFromHue wrote: »

I didn't know you were such a Saracens fan :pac:

Oh God I never even realised that. I feel dirty.

Allez les toulonnais then!

thomond2006

Neither?!

Freddy Michalak's shoulder isn't right yet, he's out. Nicolas Durand comes onto the bench, not a bad replacement!

Rickwellwood

dear god please please Toulon win today