Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013

hefferboi

Turtyturd wrote: »

Is that a Warrior version of an old Adidas kit?

I couldn't tell you. We should have used it as next seasons kit.

Knex*

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I think next year would be different. We haven't been in the CL for a good while now so making top 4 when our past league appearances have been 7th, 6th, 8th and 7th. A top 4 finish and regular football would be a good achievement for Enrique, Allen, Henderson, Downing, Sturridge, Coutinho. Obviously sturridge has won trophies with Chelsea but being a first regular(if he is) would probably make this a bit different. I definitely think Arsenal celebrating is a bit werid, if we achieved 4th in 09/10 and celebrated like that I'd be well pissed off. If 3-4 years time after having consistently finished top 4 and we are still celebrating like that then it would annoy me.

So you're not giving any allowances for it being a position that they achieved on the final day of the season, especially after they required a remarkable run of form to get it?

A lot of people wrote off their chances a few months back.

Personally, I think that in this context they have every right to celebrate. Achieving something on the very last day of the season is always dramatic, no matter the club involved.

AdamD

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I think next year would be different. We haven't been in the CL for a good while now so making top 4 when our past league appearances have been 7th, 6th, 8th and 7th. A top 4 finish and regular football would be a good achievement for Enrique, Allen, Henderson, Downing, Sturridge, Coutinho. Obviously sturridge has won trophies with Chelsea but being a first regular(if he is) would probably make this a bit different. I definitely think Arsenal celebrating is a bit werid, if we achieved 4th in 09/10 and celebrated like that I'd be well pissed off. If 3-4 years time after having consistently finished top 4 and we are still celebrating like that then it would annoy me.

People aren't taking the context into account at all. For months everyone has been **** over Spurs and talking about a 'shift in power in North London'. AVB had his little 'downward spiral' dig, people were calling for their heads. After losing to Bayern and Spurs in a week everyone completely wrote them off, they then went on to win 8 and draw 2 of their last 10 league games to overtake their rivals by 1 point and get CL qualification. Why wouldn't they celebrate? Its all about context, if they were giving a decent title challenge then collapsed to 4th over the last 3 months like they did in 10/11 they wouldn't have been celebrating.

AC Milan also celebrated at the final whistle last night when they got their CL football, and that was partly due to late goals. Arsenal's was largely due to it being Spurs. Dunno why everyone's getting so upset over it.

4th only gets you into the qualifiers which makes the celebrating even more cringe.

Hidalgo

mike65 wrote: »

Everyone loves stats so here is (drum roll) "The season in numbers"

Points total 61 (average ppg of 1.61) Best month March 3 wins 1 defeat ppg 2.25

Matches

---

Home Away
WIN 16 (42%)

---

9----7
DRAW 13 (34%)

---

6----7
LOSS 9 (24%)

---

4----5

The away record above isn't great but by no means awful. The home record needs to improve quite a bit to close the gap to 4th. From 9 wins, 6 draws and 4 losses, that needs to shift to something like 12 wins, 4 draws and 3 losses.

Knex*

We're here looking down at Arsenal, yet there they are in the CL for the 16th year straight, after a remarkable run of form which saw them knock their main rivals from the spot by one point.

I don't get it.

Envious of them? Certainly. Critical? We haven't a leg to stand on.

LuckyLloyd

rarnes1 wrote: »

4th only gets you into the qualifiers which makes the celebrating even more cringe.

Everton 2005...

Chucky the tree

Knex. wrote: »

So you're not giving any allowances for it being a position that they achieved on the final day of the season, especially after they required a remarkable run of form to get it?

A lot of people wrote off their chances a few months back.

Personally, I think that in this context they have every right to celebrate. Achieving something on the very last day of the season is always dramatic, no matter the club involved.

AdamD wrote: »

People aren't taking the context into account at all. For months everyone has been **** over Spurs and talking about a 'shift in power in North London'. AVB had his little 'downward spiral' dig, people were calling for their heads. After losing to Bayern and Spurs in a week everyone completely wrote them off, they then went on to win 8 and draw 2 of their last 10 league games to overtake their rivals by 1 point and get CL qualification. Why wouldn't they celebrate? Its all about context, if they were giving a decent title challenge then collapsed to 4th over the last 3 months like they did in 10/11 they wouldn't have been celebrating.

AC Milan also celebrated at the final whistle last night when they got their CL football, and that was partly due to late goals. Arsenal's was largely due to it being Spurs. Dunno why everyone's getting so upset over it.

I don't think great players who have a winning mentality would celebrate the way Arsenal players and staff did despite all the circumstances. As I said in 09/10 I can't imagine Gerrard, Masch, Torres etc celebrating in that fashion. I think they be happy, probably let out the emotion at the final whistle but I wouldn't expect big celebrations to continue into the dressing room and no doubt beyond.

Hidalgo

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I don't think great players who have a winning mentality would celebrate the way Arsenal players and staff did despite all the circumstances. As I said in 09/10 I can't imagine Gerrard, Masch, Torres etc celebrating in that fashion. I think they be happy, probably let out the emotion at the final whistle but I wouldn't expect big celebrations to continue into the dressing room and no doubt beyond.

A comparison to Liverpool potentially getting there in 09/10 isn't exactly the same as Arsenal yesterday. Liverpool went very close to winning the league the year previous, therefore sneaking into CL via 4th on the last day of the season would have been a disappointment.
If Arsenal had just came up short last season in trying to win the league, then yes this season would have been a big step back. As it is, that's 2 seasons in a row that Arsenal have been expected to miss out, yet they've got there. And after coming from 10 pts behind to their closest neighbours was a fine achievement

Knex*

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I don't think great players who have a winning mentality would celebrate the way Arsenal players and staff did despite all the circumstances. As I said in 09/10 I can't imagine Gerrard, Masch, Torres etc celebrating in that fashion. I think they be happy, probably let out the emotion at the final whistle but I wouldn't expect big celebrations to continue into the dressing room and no doubt beyond.

I think you're undervaluing the emotion of the day. Last grasp and just pipping your closest rivals.

Also, those same players you mentioned then failed to get CL the following years, although Masch was gone by September.

I think you're overplaying mentality while undervaluing context tbh.

I do get what you mean however, start of the season, when goals are laid out 4th should be the minimum for a club like Arsenal this season. As such, it shouldn't be celebrated as a major achievement.

I just think the manner in how it culminated makes it different.

Chucky the tree

Knex. wrote: »

We're here looking down at Arsenal, yet there they are in the CL for the 16th year straight, after a remarkable run of form which saw them knock their main rivals from the spot by one point.

I don't get it.

Envious of them? Certainly. Critical? We haven't a leg to stand on.

I find this mentality bizarre. So because the club we support has finished lower down the table means we can't criticise or comment on a club above us? Where Liverpool finished has no relevance about my comments on Arsenal.

Sir Gallagher

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Everton 2005...

Wasn't it Villareal or Sevilla they got, because they weren't seeded? I'd imagine Arsenal will get a handy fixture.

Remember Super Dirks last minute winner from a tasty Ryan Babbel cross against Standard Liege... Even back then we always did things the hard way.

Gbear

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Wasn't it Villareal or Sevilla they got, because they weren't seeded? I'd imagine Arsenal will get a handy fixture.

Remember Super Dirks last minute winner from a tasty Ryan Babbel cross against Standard Liege... Even back then we always did things the hard way.

I also seem to recall Pepe saving a pelanty in that tie.

5live

5live wrote: »

Over the last 10 years Arsenal have gone from being in the title race consistently to fighting it out for fourth consistently.

If sucess is measured by CL qualifying then they are sucessful.

If it is measured by title challenges then they arent. Arsenal are top of the second tier, just as Liverpool are bottom of the second tier.

Just a statement of fact as i see it. Feel free to disagree

It's a very long "spiral" though. In the last 8 years Arsenal have finished 4-4-3-4-3-4-3-4, that looks fairly consistent to me.

SlickRic

i don't know how many of you will agree with my sentiments, but here is my brief perspective on the Ferguson retirement...if you're not bored of it all by now. i thought I'd post it after he retired, rather than during the height of it over the last couple of weeks.

Alex Ferguson: A Liverpool Fan's Perspective

I'll post something on Liverpool's season over the next few days.

I appreciate it if you do read anything I've written. thanks.

mike65

Hidalgo wrote: »

The away record above isn't great but by no means awful. The home record needs to improve quite a bit to close the gap to 4th. From 9 wins, 6 draws and 4 losses, that needs to shift to something like 12 wins, 4 draws and 3 losses.

The margins are actually very fine, its worth going back over our defeats/draws and pinning down why the side lost points

West Brom away - Skrtel brain fart, Agger gets sent off
City home - Reina brain fart at 1-0 Skrtel brain fart at 2-1
City away - Reina brain fart - rushing out to cover Aguero
Soton away - Rodgers brain fart 4-2-4 is not a formation against any PL team
Reading away - rank bad finishing
Man Utd home - Shelvey sent off (might not have been but his tackling is terrible)
Villa home - rank bad finishing, rank bad defending
Spurs away - asleep for opening 15 minutes
Everton away - disallowed goal

and a few more besides.

Knex*

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I find this mentality bizarre. So because the club we support has finished lower down the table means we can't criticise or comment on a club above us? Where Liverpool finished has no relevance about my comments on Arsenal.

I don't know, I'll have to think upon it some more when I'm less distracted.

I just think your attitude is slightly arrogant, which surprises me as you've always come across as a pragmatic poster to me. It seems that we should expect 1st, and not celebrate anything less.

Not realistic in my view, nor is it for Arsenal, and the manner in which they clinched 4th is almost exceptional in circumstance. Circumstance that I feel warrants celebration, certainly without people criticising them.

I fancy Arsenal to push on in coming seasons tbh.

mike65

Late stats from guardian season in numbers

28: Liverpool's goal difference of +28 is the best ever recorded by a team outside the top six (in the goal difference era).

32: Liverpool's English players scored 32 goals this season – more than any other side (British talent is rubbish remember!).

291: Luis Suárez had almost twice as many dribbles as any other player. Adel Taarabt was second with 159.

296: Liverpool had the most shots off target (as mentioned earlier), 42 more than Manchester City, the second most. Luis Suárez had 71 shots off target, more than any other player.

363: Luis Suárez touched the ball 363 times in the opposition penalty box this season, 140 more times than any other player in the Premier League (next most – Van Persie with 223).

Hidalgo

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Wasn't it Villareal or Sevilla they got, because they weren't seeded? I'd imagine Arsenal will get a handy fixture.

Remember Super Dirks last minute winner from a tasty Ryan Babbel cross against Standard Liege... Even back then we always did things the hard way.

Villareal ifirc

Seamu$

Knex. wrote: »

We're here looking down at Arsenal, yet there they are in the CL for the 16th year straight, after a remarkable run of form which saw them knock their main rivals from the spot by one point.

I don't get it.

Envious of them? Certainly. Critical? We haven't a leg to stand on.

I think what people are finding strange about the celebrations is that they have achieved this every year for the past 15 years, so it's not exactly new to them. Even if you won the title 16 years on the trot you could imagine the celebrations would have got fairly muted at that stage with that sort of predictability & regularity.

You could understand a team that haven't got into the CL in quite a while celebrating, but when it's nothing new to them it possibly seemed a little bit odd. It probably had more to do with the run of results they put together to achieve it, the relief of finally getting there, plus the fact it was their bitter rivals that they pipped to the post.

Chucky the tree

Knex. wrote: »

I don't know, I'll have to think upon it some more when I'm less distracted.

I just think your attitude is slightly arrogant, which surprises me as you've always come across as a pragmatic poster to me. It seems that we should expect 1st, and not celebrate anything less.

Not realistic in my view, nor is it for Arsenal, and the manner in which they clinched 4th is almost exceptional in circumstance. Circumstance that I feel warrants celebration, certainly without people criticising them.

I fancy Arsenal to push on in coming seasons tbh.

I think it's confidence rather than arrogance. A team like Arsenal should expect to be challenging for trophies. Two things went throught my head at the time I saw them celebrating I thought "celebrating the chance to get knocked out of another tournament - strange" and second "RVP must be even happier with his decision to leave when he watches the Arsenal players celebrate like that". As a football fan I suppose it's sad to see a club like Arsenal fade that badly. I don't think it's surprising they haven't won a trophy in 4 years when you watch them celebrate like they did yesterday and it's not surprising that all of their best players have left.

Hidalgo

mike65 wrote: »

The margins are actually very fine, its worth going back over our defeats/draws and pinning down why the side lost points

West Brom away - Skrtel brain fart, Agger gets sent off
City home - Reina brain fart at 1-0 Skrtel brain fart at 2-1
City away - Reina brain fart - rushing out to cover Aguero
Soton away - Rodgers brain fart 4-2-4 is not a formation against any PL team
Reading away - rank bad finishing
Man Utd home - Shelvey sent off (might not have been but his tackling is terrible)
Villa home - rank bad finishing, rank bad defending
Spurs away - asleep for opening 15 minutes
Everton away - disallowed goal

and a few more besides.

Fine margins indeed, but Arsenal and Spurs could probably do something similar to highlight that they could have gleaned more points throughout the season (every team probably could in fairness)

rob316

SlickRic wrote: »

i don't know how many of you will agree with my sentiments, but here is my brief perspective on the Ferguson retirement...if you're not bored of it all by now. i thought I'd post it after he retired, rather than during the height of it over the last couple of weeks.

Alex Ferguson: A Liverpool Fan's Perspective

I'll post something on Liverpool's season over the next few days.

I appreciate it if you do read anything I've written. thanks.

Excellent couldnt of said it better myself. School in the 90's was awful as a liverpool fan even though we probably out numbered the united lot. I'll never forget when they won the treble in 99 all of a sudden everyone was a united fan. I could think of 10 people I grew up with who this was the case with.

My one regret of the Ferguson era is bar one or 2 seasons we never challenged them in the league. To see a liverpool and united team challenge each other on a consistent basis would be fantastic for the support of both teams.

Hidalgo

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I think it's confidence rather than arrogance. A team like Arsenal should expect to be challenging for trophies. Two things went throught my head at the time I saw them celebrating I thought "celebrating the chance to get knocked out of another tournament - strange" and second "RVP must be even happier with his decision to leave when he watches the Arsenal players celebrate like that". As a football fan I suppose it's sad to see a club like Arsenal fade that badly. I don't think it's surprising they haven't won a trophy in 4 years when you watch them celebrate like they did yesterday and it's not surprising that all of their best players have left.

Maybe domestic cups, but if Arsenal are expecting to challenge utd and City for the league they'd need a reality check imo.
Even more so for the CL.
They're just not at that level. Not unless that start throwing around the money bags.

Yes they'll get knocked out of the CL next year, but its still the comp to be in. Likewise, championship teams want to get promotion to the epl, they won't win it but they still want to play in it

Knex*

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I think it's confidence rather than arrogance. A team like Arsenal should expect to be challenging for trophies. Two things went throught my head at the time I saw them celebrating I thought "celebrating the chance to get knocked out of another tournament - strange" and second "RVP must be even happier with his decision to leave when he watches the Arsenal players celebrate like that". As a football fan I suppose it's sad to see a club like Arsenal fade that badly. I don't think it's surprising they haven't won a trophy in 4 years when you watch them celebrate like they did yesterday and it's not surprising that all of their best players have left.

I suppose we're arguing two sides of the same coin. I'm saying, that considering they're not the team that they once are, you can understand the mentality under the circumstances.

You're saying its that mentality and type of player that has them in the position that they are currently in.

We could go on for days taking aspects from one or the other

missingtime

Stupid woodwork....

citytillidie

Folks dont forget about Panorama tonight at 9pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22566230

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

missingtime wrote: »

Stupid woodwork....

The percentage of chances created to goals scored is a bit of a concern for me. minor, i know - at least we are creating chances - but I still think the 0-0 draws ar a cause for concern.

MD1990

i found that if we are drawing with 20 even 30 minutes to go
that we were very unlikely to get the 3 points

missingtime

MD1990 wrote: »

i found that if we are drawing with 20 even 30 minutes to go
that we were very unlikely to get the 3 points

Sometimes I think the players we have up front can be too similar in style of play. Yesterday's game was a fine example or something that has been happening for too long; too much faffing about with the ball and not enough directness.

Gbear

MD1990 wrote: »

i found that if we are drawing with 20 even 30 minutes to go
that we were very unlikely to get the 3 points

You're better off having 6 10 goal a season players than 2 30 goal players.

We've lacked that a bit this season - we were hugely reliant on Suarez up until January - but the squad now feels more rounded from a goal-getting point of view.

Next season I'd like to think that In addition to something in the region of 40 goals between Sturridge and Suarez, Borini, Henderson, Coutinho, Sterling, Gerrard, Downing will all contribute 5 goals or so, and maybe 10 in some cases.

Sterling could offer the sort of change from the bench that could swing a game next season. Ideally we'd have at least 1 more in addition to him.

T-K-O

missingtime wrote: »

Stupid woodwork....

Interesting 1st and 2nd are unchanged. You make your own luck

Chucky the tree

Hidalgo wrote: »

Maybe domestic cups, but if Arsenal are expecting to challenge utd and City for the league they'd need a reality check imo.
Even more so for the CL.
They're just not at that level. Not unless that start throwing around the money bags.

Yes they'll get knocked out of the CL next year, but its still the comp to be in. Likewise, championship teams want to get promotion to the epl, they won't win it but they still want to play in it

Did Liverpool need a reality checked when they won the CL? Porto? Chelsea? These teams never had the best first 11 or squad but it didn't stop them. They had a winners mentality - I've no doubt for Liverpool the UEFA cup, fa cup and carling cups won previously had been a big help in that. Something very worrying inside the Arsenal camp if their players think at the start of the season "United, City and chelsea have more money than us, we have no chance.". If you think like a loser you'll act like one imo.

mayordenis

T-K-O wrote: »

Interesting 1st and 2nd are unchanged. You make your own luck

It's not really a debate about luck though, or at least it shouldn't be. It's about margins, the difference this season between United and City and the rest was not marginal, it was vast, but the then next group are in a lot of ways much of a muchness.

Hidalgo

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Did Liverpool need a reality checked when they won the CL? Porto? Chelsea? These teams never had the best first 11 or squad but it didn't stop them. They had a winners mentality - I've no doubt for Liverpool the UEFA cup, fa cup and carling cups won previously had been a big help in that. Something very worrying inside the Arsenal camp if their players think at the start of the season "United, City and chelsea have more money than us, we have no chance.". If you think like a loser you'll act like one imo.

You've got to strive to be better than you currently are.
Maybe Arsenal did think Utd, City and Chelsea all had teams better than them, maybe they thought Arsenal were better than those 3. I don't know

I agree that at the start of the season, they should be aiming for more than CL qualification.
But last Feb March, I'm sure Arsenal would have been delighted with the possibility of CL football as it was looking less and less likely at the time. The fact they they didn't throw in the towel shows resilience and a will to win, not a losers mentality in that regard.

5live

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a very long "spiral" though. In the last 8 years Arsenal have finished 4-4-3-4-3-4-3-4, that looks fairly consistent to me.

Or another interpretation could be no improvement while all around you are improving. Eventually, like Wigan, there will come a day that you cant get your ass up from the fire and you will get burned.

Tbh Arsenal wouldnt worry me the way the other CL clubs do. And i would include spurs into that CL category too. All have strengthened in the last 2 years but imo Arsenal havent. Good midfield but question marks for me in defence and attack.

Arsenal are the team to overtake or more to target in the short term. Spurs to a lesser degree as they were so far ahead and got caught. The top 3 would want to have a flustercluck of a season to miss out

T-K-O

mayordenis wrote: »

It's not really a debate about luck though, or at least it shouldn't be. It's about margins, the difference this season between United and City and the rest was not marginal, it was vast, but the then next group are in a lot of ways much of a muchness.

In some ways yes I agree. In the latter part of the season IMO we have closed that gap but Arsenal and Spurs throughout the entire season were better than us and deserve to finish above us.

gafferino

Jamie Carragher's career in numbers

737 appearances for Liverpool

26 years of service. Carragher's first association with Liverpool Football Club was in 1987-88 when he was just nine years old

58 appearances is Carra's record total for a single season, during 2000-01 as he helped the Reds to a unique treble of FA Cup, League Cup and UEFA Cup

7 major trophies won with the Reds - 2 FA Cups, 3 League Cups, 1 Champions League, 1 UEFA Cup

1 defeat in 15 league games after Carra returned to the side in January. Just 12 goals were conceded in that time

12 honours in total with LFC including the FA Youth Cup

150 appearances in European competition make Jamie the man with the most games on the continental stage in Liverpool history. He has appeared in a staggering 44 per cent of all our European games

16 years and 131 days - the length of Carra's first-team career

38 caps for his country

6 matches played at the World Cup for England, at Germany 2006 and South Africa 2010, none of which ended in defeat during normal time

7 was where Reds supporters ranked the defender when asked to name their 100 Players Who Shook the Kop

11 Carraghers is a dream held by many on the Kop, who sing each week of their wish for "a team of Carraghers"

1 Honorary Fellowship, awarded by Liverpool John Moores University in July 2012

36 goals in a single campaign was Jamie's goalscoring record, which still stands, for Bootle Boys as a young player at centre-forward

45 times the centre-back has lined up against Chelsea, more than any other team - with Arsenal, Manchester United, Aston Villa and Everton his next most common opposition

5 goals Carragher has scored for Liverpool, meaning the defender averages a goal every 147 games

51 - the number of times Carra captained Liverpool in the Premier League

0 was the price the Reds paid for Carragher's services, having brought him through the youth team before awarding a professional contract in 1996

6 managers have been in charge at Anfield since Jamie made his debut, starting with Roy Evans and right up to current incumbent Brendan Rodgers

120 more games Jamie would have needed to play if he was to catch Liverpool's all-time record appearance holder, Ian Callaghan

8 times Carragher has put the ball through his own net, including twice in a single match on one occasion

35,682 people attended Jamie's testimonial, which took place against an Everton XI at Anfield in 2010

1,000 miles was the distance Carra travelled after working as a pundit during Euro 2012 to attend a trophy presentation for local teams in his hometown

23 is both the number Carragher wore with pride on the back of his Liverpool shirt and the name of his foundation, which he set up to support local children and charities throughout the city

mike65

gafferino wrote: »

1 defeat in 15 league games after Carra returned to the side in January. Just 12 goals were conceded in that time

Kinda sticks out like a sore thumb. Yesterdays performance by Skrtel certainly didn't engender any optimism that he can fill the void and find a return to form as he seems to have a genuine problem with the extra time and space that Rodgers system allows. A couple of times against QPR he received the ball under no pressure in a deep position and was very slow to use it, even a simple quick pass to Lucas or Johnson was a challenge.

LiamoSail

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

My point is the following really:

- Arsenal shouldn't be celebrating 4th place like they did yesterday. Would the 2004 squad have celebrated 4th like that?
- Spurs should have committed fully to the EL when they were at the Quarter Final Stage (or the FA Cup semi final last year). They've had a good team the past couple of years but sacrificed the opportunity of getting something tangible to define the period at the altar of fourth place;

I'd like to think that if we did scrape fourth next season we wouldn't be hugging and kissing after the final whistle or celebraring in the dressing rooms like we won the league. But that's probably unrealistic.

I'd associate you preference with a small club mentality. Clubs like Birmingham, Wigan and Swansea would all willingly accept a poor league finish if it meant success in a cup. Could you see united or arsenal doing that? Both Birmingham and Wigan went down the years they won the cups, and the majority of their fans probably see it as a decent trade off, because that to them, is as good as it gets. They know that success in the cups is their ceiling. We shouldn't accept that

Where do you think Steven Gerrard, frank lampard or wayne rooney would rather be, lifting the carling cup after a final against bradford, or playing Real Madrid in a champions lge tie? I think any professional with ambitions to be the best will choose champions league football every time

There's also the point about foundations. The long term aim has has to be a crack at the title, and the foundations of that can only be built with champions league qualification. Carling cups don't attract big players or probably more pertinently, the finances to attract top players

Winning trophies is all well and good, but the trophy has to have significance, and I'd rank facing Europe's best sides in a knock out competition to be far more significant then beating England's also ran sides in a competition the big clubs have long since stopped regarding as prestigious. It's a trophy yes, but for a club like Liverpool, sacrificing leagues position for success in the carling cup would achieve only one thing, another false dawn

Gbear

LiamoSail wrote: »

Winning trophies is all well and good, but the trophy has to have significance, and I'd rank facing Europe's best sides in a knock out competition to be far more significant then beating England's also ran sides in a competition the big clubs have long since stopped regarding as prestigious. It's a trophy yes, but for a club like Liverpool, sacrificing leagues position for success in the carling cup would achieve only one thing, another false dawn

I mostly agree.
The only thing I would say is that there's no reason that any cup has to be looked down on. If you meet your targets in the league and win a cup then you can really enjoy it and it's a far bigger achievement.

If you look at chelsea now, I'd say a lot of them wouldn't have been bothered about winning the EL at the start of the season, but given the circumstances and how every thing worked out in the end it made the EL a symbol of a job well done in all competitions that elevated it above simply winning a second tier european trophy.

How we do next season in the league will represent where our squad is and what we can hope for the future. That must first be secured before much importance can be given to other competitions.

Another example was how much Barca seemed to enjoy winning the World championship after Guardiola's first season. It wasn't that the trophy itself was prestigious - it was the culmination of all the work they had put in prior to it.

Turtyturd

LiamoSail wrote: »

Winning trophies is all well and good, but the trophy has to have significance, and I'd rank facing Europe's best sides in a knock out competition to be far more significant then beating England's also ran sides in a competition the big clubs have long since stopped regarding as prestigious. It's a trophy yes, but for a club like Liverpool, sacrificing leagues position for success in the carling cup would achieve only one thing, another false dawn

Same can be said for the CL though, qualifying for it is all well and good, but it has to mean something. 16 consecutive years and all that but do Arsenal really have a chance of winning? They might beat a couple of Europe's also ran sides in the group stages, but after that they are out of their depth. And reading through some of their fans comments qualifying for another season has given them another false dawn.

messinkiapina

missingtime wrote: »

Stupid woodwork....

I'm surprised by that actually. I didn't think we hit the woodwork nearly as often this season as we did last. I think 4th place would have been very generous to us though.

Luckycharms_74

All the goals in EPL 12/13

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x101pfs_all-liverpool-epl-goals-12-13_sport#.UZo3KcohPRp

T-K-O

messinkiapina wrote: »

I'm surprised by that actually. I didn't think we hit the woodwork nearly as often this season as we did last. I think 4th place would have been very generous to us though.

Same here, hitting the woodwork the season before seemed to happen every other game.

5live

5live wrote: »

Or another interpretation could be no improvement while all around you are improving. Eventually, like Wigan, there will come a day that you cant get your ass up from the fire and you will get burned.

If all around us are improving then that would surely still lead to slipping down the table at some point in the last 8 years rather than staying still?

Tbh Arsenal wouldnt worry me the way the other CL clubs do. And i would include spurs into that CL category too. All have strengthened in the last 2 years but imo Arsenal havent. Good midfield but question marks for me in defence and attack.

2nd fewest goals conceded in the PL this season, not sure how dodgy the defence is now that Wenger has been picking the best CB pairing for the last few months.

Arsenal are the team to overtake or more to target in the short term. Spurs to a lesser degree as they were so far ahead and got caught. The top 3 would want to have a flustercluck of a season to miss out

If Arsenal don't strengthen this summer (I'm expecting a very big investment) and the rest of the teams go as expected then I'd assume it'll be City, United, Chelsea for top 3 and a toss-up between Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool for 4th.

Grayditch

If Stevie had missed that peno, Spurs would be in the Champions League. There's also a million other factors, but I like this one the most.

LiamoSail

Turtyturd wrote: »

Same can be said for the CL though, qualifying for it is all well and good, but it has to mean something. 16 consecutive years and all that but do Arsenal really have a chance of winning? They might beat a couple of Europe's also ran sides in the group stages, but after that they are out of their depth. And reading through some of their fans comments qualifying for another season has given them another false dawn.

It does mean something though, it's a start and there's potential to build on that. Just because arsenal haven't recently, doesn't mean it can't be done

Arsenals current position isn't the result of 16years of champions league qualification, its the result of a number of years decline. What I would say about arsenal however, is that they have the potential to push on but seem reluctant to do so. It's conceivable that arsenal could sign three or four big players this year and really challenge. They have the finances and status to do it, though I can't see wenger spending like that

For a while, I've been of the opinion that arsenal are in a sense, deliberately holding back. Without investing much, they're consolidating their place in fourth and the CL. I believe they're waiting for the likes of city and Chelsea to become constrained by the ffp being implemented, and then, on what they see as a more level playing field, they will invest. With ffp, they'll be in a very good position to do so, and at a level probably only united could match. At present however, if arsenal invest say £60m this summer, three other teams could invest more and they'd essentially be no better off despite that investment

citytillidie

Grayditch wrote: »

If Stevie had missed that peno, Spurs would be in the Champions League. There's also a million other factors, but I like this one the most.

Not really as it would have just given Spurs an extra point but still 14 off Arsenals goal difference

T-K-O

citytillidie wrote: »

Not really as it would have just given Spurs an extra point but still 14 off Arsenals goal difference

What if he lobbed Reina from the Peno