Towards a United Ireland

Bertie Woot

Just finished reading "Towards A United Ireland: An Uncompleted Journey" by Billy Leonard, a Protestant Irish Republican, who unlike the vast majority of contemporary Irish Republicans, comes from a British Unionist background in Northern Ireland, and was once a member of both the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Orange Order.

His conversion from Unionism to Irish Republicanism, becoming an SDLP member and then a Sinn Fein MLA in the Stormont assembly, is a road less travelled by Northern Unionists, and in his book he analyses the past, present and outlines his vision for for the future by forwarding the concept of "Vision Ireland", a hypothetical body composed of people of all party affiliation and none, and representing all shades of opinion on the political spectrum with one common goal; that of Irish reunification.

I must confess that I found it extremely unusual for someone of such background to join Sinn Fein and allow himself to rub shoulders with former PIRA combatants who had murdered many of his RUC comrades, but whilst in the SDLP it became obvious to Mr Leonard that the SDLP had effectively abandoned the aspiration of Irish reunification, and his dedication to that goal was strong enough to compel him to join Sinn Fein, the political representatives of the Provisional IRA.

It is my view however that Sinn Fein's Adams and McGuinness paramilitary past, with Adams still in denial about his and McGuinness having once stated that he was "proud to have been a member of the Provisional IRA", mean that they are not the right people to promote the concept of Irish reunification among the Ulster Unionist community, as despite 15 years after the signing of the Good Friday Agreement and (relative) peace in NI, most Unionists collective memory of the PIRA's campaign is still strong, and many still look upon Adams and McGuinness as the Irish Republican bogey-men.

The reality is, Billy Leonard's journey form Unionism to Irish Republicanism shall not be followed by most Ulster Unionists, and the goal of peaceful and democratic Irish reunification as provided for in the Good Friday Agreement shall require considerable time, patience, and a hell of a lot of creative thinking and tactical strategy on the part of Irish Republicans.

Sinn Fein's "green paper on Irish unity, where they argue that there is a "responsibility on the Irish government to bring forward a strategy to achieve national self determination, Irish re-unification, political independence, sovereignty and national reconciliation", and call upon the Irish Government to "publish a "Green Paper" and to begin the practical planning for Irish unity", is a practical step forward. Their desire to act as and encourage others to become "persuaders" to Unionists and convince them that a united Ireland is not only their destiny but in their own self interest is also useful. But how do you, the citizen of the Republic of Ireland, feel about Irish reunification, and what do you feel is the best and most practical way of achieving Irish unity in your lifetime?

Like Billy Leonard, I too come from the Unionist-Protestant community in Northern Ireland, lived through "the troubles", and after 15 years of (relative) peace in NI have come to view Irish reunification desirable if there were safeguards, assurances and guarantees embedded with a reunification agreement which would protect the Unionist people from retaliatory persecution in a 32 county Irish Republic. However, I know that 99.7% (a rough estimate) of Northern Unionists do not share my aspiration, and are just as opposed to a united Ireland today as they were forty years ago.

How would you convince the Unionists in Northern Ireland that finally putting an end to partition is safe and in their best interests? Perhaps like many in the ROI, you too have become jaded, have given up hope, or are apathetic towards the goal of Irish reunification?

Your thoughts on Irish unity, ladies and not so lady-like persons, please.

Iwasfrozen

Bertie Woot wrote: »

How would you convince the Unionists in Northern Ireland that finally putting an end to partition is safe and in their best interests? Perhaps like many in the ROI, you too have become jaded, have given up hope, or are apathetic towards the goal of Irish reunification?

To do that you must first be of the opinion that a united Ireland is beneficial. And I've seen no evidence that points at this.

GRMA

Good post OP.

There are more protestants than you think you are republican, half my family are protestants and would be very receptive to a united Ireland.


As for Iwasfrozen you've been told many times about the impact partition has on the country, border counties in particular, is there much point in doing so again when all you will say is "No, No, No"? The last few threads on this have descended into you personifying a brick wall upon which others bang their heads... maybe we can avoid that this time and have a mutually beneficial discussion rather than an antagonistic "debate" which people seek to win.

Discussions are better than debates, there are no winners and everyone gets something out of it. Thats the problem with this forum, people seek to "win".

Bertie Woot

GRMA wrote: »

Good post OP.

There are more protestants than you think you are republican, half my family are protestants and would be very receptive to a united Ireland.


As for Iwasfrozen you've been told many times about the impact partition has on the country, border counties in particular, is there much point in doing so again when all you will say is "No, No, No"? The last few threads on this have descended into you personifying a brick wall upon which others bang their heads... maybe we can avoid that this time and have a mutually beneficial discussion rather than an antagonistic "debate" which people seek to win.

Discussions are better than debates, there are no winners and everyone gets something out of it. Thats the problem with this forum, people seek to "win".

Truthful post. People are inherently competitive, and any time I've attempted "a discussion" on Irish reunification (in other fora) it has usually rapidly descended into a tribal slagging match, with most Unionists evading the core issues and attempting to derail the thread by dropping mass quantities of red herrings and attempting to disparage the effort at creating a platform for the exchange of political opinions.

And this runs to the crux of the matter: most Ulster Unionists do not want to discuss or even consider the concept of Irish reunification, and foolishly and naively believe that there will always be a country called "Northern Ireland" and that it shall always remain a constituent country of the United Kingdom.

Time to pull the head out of the sand, fellas. The British have won many battles in Ireland, but in the final analysis, it is Irish Republicanism which is ultimately going to win this very long war.

Chuck Stone

What's the point in trying to plámás Unionists? If the majority decides it then the gears of unification will begin to turn whether Unionists like it or not and the British will be only too happy to drop the hot potato so there'll be no point crying to them.

Chips Lovell

Still a long way off from being a live issue given the last poll suggested that only 17 per cent were in favour of leaving the UK.

junder

Bertie Woot wrote: »

Truthful post. People are inherently competitive, and any time I've attempted "a discussion" on Irish reunification (in other fora) it has usually rapidly descended into a tribal slagging match, with most Unionists evading the core issues and attempting to derail the thread by dropping mass quantities of red herrings and attempting to disparage the effort at creating a platform for the exchange of political opinions.

And this runs to the crux of the matter: most Ulster Unionists do not want to discuss or even consider the concept of Irish reunification, and foolishly and naively believe that there will always be a country called "Northern Ireland" and that it shall always remain a constituent country of the United Kingdom.

Time to pull the head out of the sand, fellas. The British have won many battles in Ireland, but in the final analysis, it is Irish Republicanism which is ultimately going to win this very long war.

Nothing like preaching to the converted is there, but sure what's the point of discussion, chucks post pretty much sums the quality of debate to be had, still it all the fault of the unionists isn't it

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

chucks post pretty much sums the quality of debate to be had, still it all the fault of the unionists isn't it

Do you have an opinion on the OP?

LordSutch

GRMA wrote: »

Good post OP.

There are more protestants than you think you are republican, half my family are protestants and would be very receptive to a united Ireland.

I know the Southern Protestant mindset very well (C of I), and I guess most down here would be of the opinion that protestants across the island are already united with a common cause in a common Church, so no barriers there to a United Ireland (as the island is already United in that aspect), with the Church of England, Scotland, Wales being seperate entities. Politics is another thing altogether, and I guess that if I asked a visiting Northern Protestant if he'd mind if the North actually left the UK (with all the consequences attached), then I'm 100% sure he would smile and say something like, May the good Lord shine upon you Southern folk, but No thank you )

Starting with the NHS . . . . . .

Dear Lord, they would be mad to give it all up for what exactly? a new identity?

junder

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Do you have an opinion on the OP?

Does it matter?

GRMA

LordSutch wrote: »

I know the Southern Protestant mindset very well (C of I), and I guess most down here would be of the opinion that protestants across the island are already united with a common cause in a common Church, so no barriers there to a United Ireland (as the island is already United in that aspect), with the Church of England, Scotland, Wales being seperate entities. Politics is another thing altogether, and I guess that if I asked a visiting Northern Protestant if he'd mind if the North actually left the UK (with all the consequences attached), then I'm 100% sure he would smile and say something like, May the good Lord shine upon you Southern folk, but No thank you )

Starting with the NHS . . . . . .

Dear Lord, they would be mad to give it all up for what exactly? a new identity?

That side of my family is from the north.

GRMA

junder wrote: »

Does it matter?

If you have no interest in the thread why post in it?

Bertie Woot

Chuck Stone wrote: »

What's the point in trying to plámás Unionists? If the majority decides it then the gears of unification will begin to turn whether Unionists like it or not and the British will be only too happy to drop the hot potato so there'll be no point crying to them.

If the majority of people (not necessarily Unionists) came out in favour of reunification in a referendum, IMO Unionists would cry foul and forcefully object and obstruct any move towards practical measures to reunification, and against the democratic will of the Northern Irish people.

What you have to understand is that a united ireland is the doomsday scenario for Ulster Unionism, and they shall do all in their power to prevent a united Ireland, and even if that means going against the grain of a democratic mandate.

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Still a long way off from being a live issue given the last poll suggested that only 17 per cent were in favour of leaving the UK.

I was very surprised by this:

As avowed believers in a united Ireland and the party running a border poll campaign, Sinn Fein might be surprised to learn that nearly a quarter of those who identified themselves as Sinn Fein voters - 23% - told the pollsters they would back the status quo in a border poll.

More than half of SDLP supporters - 56% - also said they would opt to stay in the UK if a poll was held tomorrow.

For almost one quarter of SF voters and more than half of SDLP voters stating that they would choose to vote for NI to remain part of the UK in a referendum shouts that Republicanism and Nationalism in the north has run out of steam, morale and lost its way.

This acceptance of partition among a significant percentage of the Republican/Nationalist minority is exactly what Unionism needs to lend credibility and indeed legitimacy to the sustainment of partition.

junder

GRMA wrote: »

If you have no interest in the thread why post in it?

Where the future of my country is concerned I am very interested, however there is very little interest in what opinion is, look as this thread, your first post was to have a go at Iwasfrozen, then the op blames unionists for lack of discussion and chuck comes in with it doesn't matter what unionist think in the event of a united ireland ever happening. Hardly conductive to open discussion

Bertie Woot

junder wrote: »

Where the future of my country is concerned I am very interested, however there is very little interest in what opinion is, look as this thread, your first post was to have a go at Iwasfrozen, then the op blames unionists for lack of discussion and chuck comes in with it doesn't matter what unionist think in the event of a united ireland ever happening. Hardly conductive to open discussion

If you are a Unionist and wish to discuss the OP, please do so and prove me wrong.

An Coilean

I would certainly support Unification, the border has never and will never make economic sense, it is to the detriment of both sides.

I would be very happy to see a movement for unity established that would allow people from all backgrounds who support unity to work twords that goal, it should not just be Sinn Féin.

junder

Bertie Woot wrote: »

If you are a Unionist and wish to discuss the OP, please do so and prove me wrong.

If you are really interested in a unionist opinion why the need to apportion blame in your second post on this thread. Why do I need to ' prove ' anything. As to why I want No part in a united ireland ironically it's your very post that answeres your question for me, the mere fact that you feel the need to 'blame unionists' shows exactly the lack of respect for my community that I have come to expect from republicans, at the heart of all united ireland discussions is the idea that its all the unionist fault, no matter what it is, it's our fault. Hardly sound ground for a respectful discussion.

getzls

I guess there is a lack of discussion about a United Ireland from Unionists, but there is a reason for that.

There is nothing to discuss.

Bertie Woot

junder wrote: »

If you are really interested in a unionist opinion why the need to apportion blame in your second post on this thread. Why do I need to ' prove ' anything. As to why I want No part in a united ireland ironically it's your very post that answeres your question for me, the mere fact that you feel the need to 'blame unionists' shows exactly the lack of respect for my community that I have come to expect from republicans, at the heart of all united ireland discussions is the idea that its all the unionist fault, no matter what it is, it's our fault. Hardly sound ground for a respectful discussion.

What do you mean by "it's all the Unionist fault"?

"Fault" for what?

And why should Irish Republicans respect you?

junder

Bertie Woot wrote: »

What do you mean by "it's all the Unionist fault"?

"Fault" for what?

And why should Irish Republicans respect you?

You tell me why it's unionist fault since you are then one blaming us. And why shouldn't republicans respect me I am not, nor have i ever been a paramilitary, I have never murdered, I have never been to prison, I am not sectarian, racist, sexist or homophobic, I am just a human being who has an opposing lawful view point if that can't be respected, what can and since respect is the baseline for any meaningful dialogue, without it there is no point in trying

Fr Tod Umptious

Bertie Woot wrote: »

What do you mean by "it's all the Unionist fault"?

"Fault" for what?

And why should Irish Republicans respect you?

Well there was a thread here last year that blamed them for clerical sex abuse by members of the Catholic church in the Republic.
The theory read that if they had entered a united Ireland in 1922 then the Catholic church would not have had such influence in the south.

OCorcrainn

I of course do support a united Ireland that will respect all traditions and heritage. Being a member of Sinn Féin myself, a united Ireland that is not just based proclamation of 1916 but on the egalitarian and republican principles laid out by the Protestant, Dissenter and Catholic men of the United Irishmen. I do not see the PUL community as enemies but as brothers, and I hope someday that they will embrace it.

Bertie Woot

junder wrote: »

You tell me why it's unionist fault since you are then one blaming us. And why shouldn't republicans respect me I am not, nor have i ever been a paramilitary, I have never murdered, I have never been to prison, I am not sectarian, racist, sexist or homophobic, I am just a human being who has an opposing lawful view point if that can't be respected, what can and since respect is the baseline for any meaningful dialogue, without it there is no point in trying

You haven't answered the question, and instead have gone off on an irrelevant tangent. I'll ask you again; what is Unionist's "fault"? What have Unionists done wrong? Have they done anything wrong? Be specific.

No-one has accused you of being 'a paramilitary, a racist, a criminal, sexist, homophobic' et al., and why you have even brought these things up is puzzling to say the least.

Your Unionist viewpoint is just as valid as the Republican analysis, but why should Irish Republicans respect the British colonial Unionist identity?

Irish Republicanism, believe this or not, does in fact respect your British ethnic and cultural identity. I want you to tell me why you think that they don't. I also want you to place yourself in the shoes of Irish people and attempt to understand their experience of the British in Ireland. I would also like Irish Republicans to place themselves in the shoes of Unionists and try to understand their experience of the Irish in Ireland.

I want you to engage with Irish Republicans in meaningful discourse, not a competition of who is right and who is wrong. Talk to them. Tell them your experience of Irish Republicanism from 1968 to 1998, and listen to their experience of Unionism in Northern Ireland.

OCorcrainn wrote: »

I of course do support a united Ireland that will respect all traditions and heritage. Being a member of Sinn Féin myself, a united Ireland that is not just based proclamation of 1916 but on the egalitarian and republican principles laid out by the Protestant, Dissenter and Catholic men of the United Irishmen. I do not see the PUL community as enemies but as brothers, and I hope someday that they will embrace it.

A lot of Unionists are either ignorant or in denial of the fact that the most notorious Irish Republican that ever lived was descended from the colonial British and was a Protestant. Tone's ideas on separation from Britain, independence, and the creation of a 32 county sovereign Republic where Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter can live as equals and in peace and harmony are not ones which Unionism should find threatening.

Zubeneschamali

Bertie Woot wrote: »

How would you convince the Unionists in Northern Ireland that finally putting an end to partition is safe and in their best interests?

I wouldn't. I'm quite happy to keep them out of Dáil Eireann, thanks very much.

junder

Bertie Woot wrote: »

You haven't answered the question, and instead have gone off on an irrelevant tangent. I'll ask you again; what is Unionist's "fault"? What have Unionists done wrong? Have they done anything wrong? Be specific.

No-one has accused you of being 'a paramilitary, a racist, a criminal, sexist, homophobic' et al., and why you have even brought these things up is puzzling to say the least.

Your Unionist viewpoint is just as valid as the Republican analysis, but why should Irish Republicans respect the British colonial Unionist identity?

Irish Republicanism, believe this or not, does in fact respect your British ethnic and cultural identity. I want you to tell me why you think that they don't. I also want you to place yourself in the shoes of Irish people and attempt to understand their experience of the British in Ireland. I would also like Irish Republicans to place themselves in the shoes of Unionists and try to understand their experience of the Irish in Ireland.

I want you to engage with Irish Republicans in meaningful discourse, not a competition of who is right and who is wrong. Talk to them. Tell them your experience of Irish Republicanism from 1968 to 1998, and listen to their experience of Unionism in Northern Ireland.



A lot of Unionists are either ignorant or in denial of the fact that the most notorious Irish Republican that ever lived was descended from the colonial British and was a Protestant. Tone's ideas on separation from Britain, independence, and the creation of a 32 county sovereign Republic where Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter can live as equals and in peace and harmony are not ones which Unionism should find threatening.

"any time I've attempted "a discussion" on Irish reunification (in other fora) it has usually rapidly descended into a tribal slagging match, with most Unionists evading the core issues and attempting to derail the thread by dropping mass quantities of red herrings and attempting to disparage the effort at creating a platform for the exchange of political opinions."

Your words, seems like your blaming us now considering myself and Gallag are the only regular unionist posters that's some feat, espically since boards is so well moderated (oh and GRMA, Iwasfrozen is not Actully a unionist). Ironically since your are allegedly a unionist convert you could be an ambassador for your community, you could use your new found nationslist / republican viewpoint to explain why the unionist community feels the way it does to your new found friends, as for dealing with republicans, I think you might find I have death with alot more then you have which is why I have the mindset I have now, I know that republicans with never accept those things I hold dear in thier united ireland, the loyal orders, the flute bands, the connections to the British army. As for economics, well few years yet before you really start talking about that, the republic has a bail out to pay back yet, although its ironic that republicans use the argument about how senseless it is to have a border on a small island and then go on to support an independent Scotland.

As for the united ireland men, I think the PIRA has long since desecrated that idology, although interestingly enough I am a descendent of Henry joy McCracken

OCorcrainn

I do not agree with your opinion that the principles and ideology of the United Irishmen have been desecrated, something like that can never be desecrated.

maccored

junder wrote: »

"any time I've attempted "a discussion" on Irish reunification (in other fora) it has usually rapidly descended into a tribal slagging match, with most Unionists evading the core issues and attempting to derail the thread by dropping mass quantities of red herrings and attempting to disparage the effort at creating a platform for the exchange of political opinions."

I dont think Bertie Woot was blaming anyone - he/she managed to predict exactly what you were about to do - ie evade the core issue and attempt to derail the thread.

Sensor

junder wrote: »

"any time I've attempted "a discussion" on Irish reunification (in other fora) it has usually rapidly descended into a tribal slagging match, with most Unionists evading the core issues and attempting to derail the thread by dropping mass quantities of red herrings and attempting to disparage the effort at creating a platform for the exchange of political opinions."

Your words, seems like your blaming us now considering myself and Gallag are the only regular unionist posters that's some feat, espically since boards is so well moderated (oh and GRMA, Iwasfrozen is not Actully a unionist). Ironically since your are allegedly a unionist convert you could be an ambassador for your community, you could use your new found nationslist / republican viewpoint to explain why the unionist community feels the way it does to your new found friends, as for dealing with republicans, I think you might find I have death with alot more then you have which is why I have the mindset I have now, I know that republicans with never accept those things I hold dear in thier united ireland, the loyal orders, the flute bands, the connections to the British army. As for economics, well few years yet before you really start talking about that, the republic has a bail out to pay back yet, although its ironic that republicans use the argument about how senseless it is to have a border on a small island and then go on to support an independent Scotland.

As for the united ireland men, I think the PIRA has long since desecrated that idology, although interestingly enough I am a descendent of Henry joy McCracken

I never thought of that. Would it really be an economic disadvantage for us to remain part of a bigger/ more powerful machine such as the UK?

What does Ireland have to offer us?

junder

maccored wrote: »

I dont think Bertie Woot was blaming anyone - he/she managed to predict exactly what you were about to do - ie evade the core issue and attempt to derail the thread.

And yet the first posts on the thread which where by republicans / nationalists was a dig at Iwasfrozen and post saying that basically it doesn't matter what unionists think in the event of a united ireland.

FREETV

Northern Ireland is part of Ireland, always was, it is even in the title, forget about what the passports say and what you have been brainwashed in to believing. The six counties were stolen from us under force and threat of war and death. Forget about Politics and religion, both a load of brainwashing controlling nonsense. You have a British system in place nothing else, counties didn't separate like mass continent movements during the Ice Age.

Let the Northern communities vote and decide what they want when they are good and ready. No more stupid fighting about sectarian differences because of religious beliefs and political or economic advantages just unite together first as equal human beings then make your minds up when you are good and ready about a United Ireland.

Peace and love to all communities, no more violence and insane unnecessary deaths because of the I said you said syndrome and indifferences. Evolve, change for the better, mature and waken up.

ManMade

Are there any polls on (southern) Irish people's opinion of a united ireland?

I'm not from near the border. I'm too young to know about the troubles. I'd vote no to a united ireland .All I hear about Northern Ireland in my life is trouble and riots. I like the status quo.