Towards a United Ireland

johnnydeep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, hence "you need us but we don't need you."


Your dismissal of human life and limb is a little bit unnerving, obviously you know human life will be lost following unification but you view this loss of human life as less important then territorial change.

We have no business in NI, it is not ours to own and your people are not our people. I for one will be voting no.

could this be any more wrong. the british have no business in north of Ireland. it is ours to own and it wasn't ours to give away. it is nothing short of a disgrace that successive irish goverments left irish people to suffer and be murdered by foreigners in their own country. for somebody who is concerned about the loss of human life, what did you do to stop the murder of men women and children by the british in our country. so what your saying is we shouldn't do the right thing (U.I) because of a perceived threat from loyalist drug dealers

oscarBravo

Happyman42 wrote: »

Iwasfrozen is accepting a level of violence that they find tolerable. That is morally repugnant, and they should shut up and allow people who want to find a lasting solution to get on with it. People 'haven't cared' for long enough.

I'm all in favour of a lasting solution; what I have a problem with is the assertion that the only "lasting solution" is the one that happens to accord with your personal desires.

I also find particularly distasteful the idea that violence will be a permanent and unavoidable feature of life on this island for as long as your "lasting solution" isn't implemented, especially when coupled with a blithe dismissal of the idea that violence could possibly ensue from that "lasting solution".

It's clear to me that peace on this island isn't your goal; a united Ireland is the goal, and violence is not merely an acceptable price to pay for achieving it, it's also a useful form of coercion to use to exert moral pressure on those who don't see things your way.

ONeill2013

Bertie Woot wrote: »

No, but I do now, and I'm all excited.



Many Irish-Americans take a similar view of NI not being the "real Ireland". But then, America has the lowest national average IQ in the Western world.



My next thread: Towards Afro-Eurasian unity.

Watch this space.

sure did you not know that Irish-Americans are equally as irish as us in the north, plastic. the real Irish are in the 26 counties...26 counties that the British created.

Iwasfrozen

johnnydeep wrote: »

[/B]

could this be any more wrong. the british have no business in north of Ireland. it is ours to own and it wasn't ours to give away. it is nothing short of a disgrace that successive irish goverments left irish people to suffer and be murdered by foreigners in their own country. for somebody who is concerned about the loss of human life, what did you do to stop the murder of men women and children by the british in our country. so what your saying is we shouldn't do the right thing (U.I) because of a perceived threat from loyalist drug dealers

Why is it wrong and why is it ours?

oscarBravo

johnnydeep wrote: »

[Northern Ireland] is ours to own...

It's not mine. What makes it yours?

By what objective moral standard should Northern Ireland belong to us in the Republic?

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

a useless piece of land with a poorly trained dysfunctional population. We have no strategic interest in the place and gain no benefit from it's accusation.

About the level of debate I expect from yourself to be fair.

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

About the level of debate I expect from yourself to be fair.

Did I say something un true? A population dependent on public sector jobs is poorly trained to work in the private sector.

The population is self evidently dysfunctional.

The land is useless to us. We have one of the lowest population densities in Europe.

I can back up everything I say, can you?

karma_

oscarBravo wrote: »

You can aspire to anything you want, as long as you don't demand that the rest of us subscribe to the delusion that it's the natural and imprescribable state of affairs.

The only demand I make is that once the people of the North in conjunction with the people in the Republic decide it should happen, then it should happen. Nothing more, nothing less. I also do not subscribe to the belief that violence is inevitable, the landscape in the North will be vastly different in two generations time and of that I have no doubt when I look at what things were like 40 years ago.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Did I say something un true? A population dependent on public sector jobs is poorly trained to work in the private sector.

The population is self evidently dysfunctional.

The land is useless to us. We have one of the lowest population densities in Europe.

I can back up everything I say, can you?

Back it up then. Show us how the North has a poorly trained population. You are the fella talking about something being self-evident without showing us all anything to back up such hyperbole.

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

Back it up then. Show us how the North has a poorly trained population. You are the fella talking about something being self-evident without showing us all anything to back up such hyperbole.

A population dependent on public sector jobs is poorly trained to work in the private sector.That statement is self evident.

pablomakaveli

karma_ wrote: »

The only demand I make is that once the people of the North in conjunction with the people in the Republic decide it should happen, then it should happen. Nothing more, nothing less. I also do not subscribe to the belief that violence is inevitable, the landscape in the North will be vastly different in two generations time and of that I have no doubt when I look at what things were like 40 years ago.

But going by this thread the posters in the north couldnt care less what we want in the south. It's all about them. People in the North have an undeserved inflated sense of importance regarding NI. They need to realize that a lot of people in the UK and the Republic want nothing to do with NI.

NI is simply a poison chalice that the UK wants rid of and the Republic doesnt want.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A population dependent on public sector jobs is poorly trained to work in the private sector.That statement is self evident.

Hold on there one second. You claimed to be able to back up anything you said. Repeating something said previously in no way counts as backing a claim up. Will you back it up or not?

junder

karma_ wrote: »

As a nationalist heres my views on the issues you have raised.

New Flag? No problem with that.
New Police force? No problem with that.
New anthem? No problem with that.
Universal free health? Hell yeah I'm in favour of that.
your in the British military? Sure hundreds maybe thousands of citizens of the Irish Republic are already serving, don;t see the problem.

Also I really don't see why you are bringing socialism into this? You yourself have, on this forum expressed support for the PUP who are themselves a left-wing party, bit of a paradox there fella.

You put zero thought into this post, it's just the usual old rhetoric we hear time and again.

It's not me that has to provide the substance, nationalists / republicans are trying to sell me a 'product' and that's being offered is tired old rhetori. I want cold hard facts i want costs, I want to be told as somebody who is em

ONeill2013

pablomakaveli wrote: »

But going by this thread the posters in the north couldnt care less what we want in the south. It's all about them. People in the North have an undeserved inflated sense of importance regarding NI. They need to realize that a lot of people in the UK and the Republic want nothing to do with NI.

NI is simply a poison chalice that the UK wants rid of and the Republic doesnt want.

we are aware of peoples unwant for us and that's why I would support an independent Northern Ireland in an ideal world, or Ulster but that's not going to happen.

Just think, in an independent Northern Ireland, what is there to fight about? that's when we could create our own proper identity.

oscarBravo

ONeill2013 wrote: »

we are aware of peoples unwant for us and that's why I would support an independent Northern Ireland in an ideal world, or Ulster but that's not going to happen.

Just think, in an independent Northern Ireland, what is there to fight about? that's when we could create our own proper identity.

Gets my vote.

junder

karma_ wrote: »

As a nationalist heres my views on the issues you have raised.

New Flag? No problem with that.
New Police force? No problem with that.
New anthem? No problem with that.
Universal free health? Hell yeah I'm in favour of that.
your in the British military? Sure hundreds maybe thousands of citizens of the Irish Republic are already serving, don;t see the problem.

Also I really don't see why you are bringing socialism into this? You yourself have, on this forum expressed support for the PUP who are themselves a left-wing party, bit of a paradox there fella.

You put zero thought into this post, it's just the usual old rhetoric we hear time and again.

It's not me that has to provide the substance, nationalists / republicans are trying to sell me a 'product' and that's being offered is tired old rhetori. I want cold hard facts i want costs, I want to be told as somebody who is employed by the British civil service ( you know the public service sector everybody slags Northern Ireland of for) where the work is going to come from, what's jobs are going to be available. Yes many Irish citzens do join the British army, if the go regular the get based on the main land, if the are reserves like me the go to bases in Northern Ireland, your state going to subsidise my travel to the main land. So come less of the college Marxism rhetoric and more reality

Iwasfrozen

ONeill2013 wrote: »

we are aware of peoples unwant for us and that's why I would support an independent Northern Ireland in an ideal world, or Ulster but that's not going to happen.

Just think, in an independent Northern Ireland, what is there to fight about? that's when we could create our own proper identity.

Do it, that sounds like the ideal situation.

pablomakaveli

ONeill2013 wrote: »

we are aware of peoples unwant for us and that's why I would support an independent Northern Ireland in an ideal world, or Ulster but that's not going to happen.

Just think, in an independent Northern Ireland, what is there to fight about? that's when we could create our own proper identity.

I'd actually happily support that if it was at all feasible.

Happyman42

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm all in favour of a lasting solution; what I have a problem with is the assertion that the only "lasting solution" is the one that happens to accord with your personal desires.

I also find particularly distasteful the idea that violence will be a permanent and unavoidable feature of life on this island for as long as your "lasting solution" isn't implemented, especially when coupled with a blithe dismissal of the idea that violence could possibly ensue from that "lasting solution".

It's clear to me that peace on this island isn't your goal; a united Ireland is the goal, and violence is not merely an acceptable price to pay for achieving it, it's also a useful form of coercion to use to exert moral pressure on those who don't see things your way.

Stop accusing me of something I didn't say or threaten. I live in the 'real' world not some fantasy moral kingdom. Violence will happen again and again and again, because of one thing, the British presence on this island. That is the uncomfortable truth that partitionists and Unionists refuse to countenance. No British and there is no Nationalist/Republican struggle.
It is my opinion that a UI is the only sustainable future, all others are just kicking the problem down the road or ignoring the reasons for conflict.
If the majority vote for that, what would loyalists be fighting for exactly? Re-unification with a country that no longer wants them? It would be futile and suicidal to embark on one. There comes a point when realiation sets in and you make the best of your lot. Unionism will have every opportunity to fully participate in a UI, it's really up to them to make the sensible choice.

junder

Bertie Woot wrote: »

New flag, new Police force, and new national anthem; all for you. A move towards a health service based upon the NHS model would also be desirable. You wouldn't lose or have to give up your job as a community worker or cease to be a member of the British Army. Many Irishmen throughout history have served in the British Army, and their sacrifices for Britain are now finally being acknowledged.

I am indeed from the Unionist community, but after 44 years on this island and having lived through a 30 year period of conflict and subsequent agreement and accommodation, do not consider myself a Unionist, as I do not believe in the Union with GB being sustained at the expense of the continued partition of this island.

I parrot no-ones rhetoric but my own. I've been a Socialist and opposed to capitalism since I was 18 years old. I may use some Republican terminology, but I don't believe in an end to partition and the establishment of a 32 county Irish Republic by listening to Sinn Fein. I've read a sufficient quantity of Irish history and thought about our presence on this island to know that we are heading for reunification. Not only do I feel that this is inevitable, but in light of a very turbulent 800 years, now desirable.

We are here on this island because of British colonialism. When you walk with the Apprentice Boys you practice a culture which is an inherent part of the history of this island, and which has its rightful place in a united Ireland and in the story of Ireland.

There shall be no "free money for all" in a free Ireland, unfortunately you'll still have to work for a living. But there shall be a place for Unionists/Orangemen/Protestants/Loyalists. The Unionist-Protestant people constitute a significant presence in Ireland. I understand your fears and concerns as I share them, and that is why I shall never agree to a UI without steadfast copper-fastened assurances and guarantees written into a new Irish constitution that shall protect the Protestant people from persecution and discrimination, and allow them to sustain their national and cultural identity and practice their culture.

The economic argument against a UI is a non-runner, as the Irish economy is on the mend and can only get better.

A united Ireland might also help to raise your cognitive capacity. Think about it.

So the republic has paid all its debts then because unless it has then the economic argument is very much a 'runner'. Like you I lived through the troubles, dispite leaving school with no qualifications like you I went on to universty ( so my cognitive ablitys are fine thank you, howeve since my only access to the Internet is through my phone, writing long convoluted posts can be a little labourious) however I a little more faith in my community and rather then turn my back on it I followed the progressive unionist approach.
You talk about my culture being protected and yet cite Gerry Adams as some sort of guarantor of this protection and yet his party has been instrumental in denying Irish orange men the right to parade in thier own capital city. When the Dublin and Wicklow orange lodge can parade in thier own city free from the threat of intimidation, then come back to me about my culture being protected.
And yes I would lose my job as I am employed by the mod, can't see them continuing my contract if I no longer live in the UK

pablomakaveli

Happyman42 wrote: »

Stop accusing me of something I didn't say or threaten. I live in the 'real' world not some fantasy moral kingdom. Violence will happen again and again and again, because of one thing, the British presence on this island. That is the uncomfortable truth that partitionists and Unionists refuse to countenance. No British and there is no Nationalist/Republican struggle.
It is my opinion that a UI is the only sustainable future, all others are just kicking the problem down the road or ignoring the reasons for conflict.
If the majority vote for that, what would loyalists be fighting for exactly? Re-unification with a country that no longer wants them? It would be futile and suicidal to embark on one. There comes a point when realiation sets in and you make the best of your lot. Unionism will have every opportunity to fully participate in a UI, it's really up to them to make the sensible choice.

But again that doesn't really explain why a UI would make things more peaceful. The unionists would probably fight to rejoin Britain or fight for independence. The unionists have a siege mentality that wont simply disappear with a UI.

The way forward is to sustain peace and make a more equal society in NI as well as improving the average persons lot. A happy person has no reason to take up arms.

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

Stop accusing me of something I didn't say or threaten. I live in the 'real' world not some fantasy moral kingdom. Violence will happen again and again and again, because of one thing, the British presence on this island. That is the uncomfortable truth that partitionists and Unionists refuse to countenance. No British and there is no Nationalist/Republican struggle.
It is my opinion that a UI is the only sustainable future, all others are just kicking the problem down the road or ignoring the reasons for conflict.
If the majority vote for that, what would loyalists be fighting for exactly? Re-unification with a country that no longer wants them? It would be futile and suicidal to embark on one. There comes a point when realiation sets in and you make the best of your lot. Unionism will have every opportunity to fully participate in a UI, it's really up to them to make the sensible choice.

So basically what your saying is its a united ireland or else

SoulandForm

ONeill2013 wrote: »

we are aware of peoples unwant for us and that's why I would support an independent Northern Ireland in an ideal world, or Ulster but that's not going to happen.

Just think, in an independent Northern Ireland, what is there to fight about? that's when we could create our own proper identity.

I once played with that idea but the fact that when I researched others who supported the idea I came with Kenny McClinton, Willie Frazer (who I believe actually ran for Westminster on an Ulster Independence platform) and the National Front sort of put me of it. While I can understand its appeal the fact is that Northern Ireland is a sectarian bear pit- it needs to have a worthwhile future to be integrated into a bigger framework. If partition was ever going to work NI should have been fully integrated into the UK which never really happened- now the UK itself is the process of breaking up. So lets face it the only real solution is to restore national unity. I would be very opposed to any Eire Nua type schemes also.

SoulandForm

Was it the UDA or the UVF that at one time was playing with the idea of adopting Ulster Nationalism?

oscarBravo

Happyman42 wrote: »

Violence will happen again and again and again, because of one thing, the British presence on this island.

Bollox. Violence will happen because of one thing: some people will react to the British presence on this island with violence, and other people will claim to abhor that violence while simultaneously justifying it by claiming that it's because of the British presence rather than because of the perpetrators of violence.

ONeill2013

SoulandForm wrote: »

I once played with that idea but the fact that when I researched others who supported the idea I came with Kenny McClinton, Willie Frazer (who I believe actually ran for Westminster on an Ulster Independence platform) and the National Front sort of put me of it. While I can understand its appeal the fact is that Northern Ireland is a sectarian bear pit- it needs to have a worthwhile future to be integrated into a bigger framework. If partition was ever going to work NI should have been fully integrated into the UK which never really happened- now the UK itself is the process of breaking up. So lets face it the only real solution is to restore national unity. I would be very opposed to any Eire Nua type schemes also.

the only other way of proper peace in Northern Ireland is for everyone to leave it, no matter who runs it there will be violence, it should be turned into a giant biscuit factory or something

johnnydeep

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's not mine. What makes it yours?

By what objective moral standard should Northern Ireland belong to us in the Republic?

do you own a house, what makes it yours

Iwasfrozen

johnnydeep wrote: »

do you own a house, what makes it yours

property laws.

oscarBravo

johnnydeep wrote: »

do you own a house, what makes it yours

I bought it. Why didn't you answer the question?

SoulandForm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Bollox. Violence will happen because of one thing: some people will react to the British presence on this island with violence, and other people will claim to abhor that violence while simultaneously justifying it by claiming that it's because of the British presence rather than because of the perpetrators of violence.

Are actually against all violence though?

Would you condemn people who join the British Army as much as you would condemn people who join the Real or Continuity IRAs?