Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Towards a United Ireland

Options
1…89111314…33

Comments

  • Options
    #302
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Would you condemn people who join the British Army as much as you would condemn people who join the Real or Continuity IRAs?
    Oh look, a false dichotomy. Let me see you subscribe to it yourself first: do you believe that no violence is ever justified, or do you believe that all violence is always justified?


  • Options
    #303
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Bollox. Violence will happen because of one thing: some people will react to the British presence on this island with violence, and other people will claim to abhor that violence while simultaneously justifying it by claiming that it's because of the British presence rather than because of the perpetrators of violence.

    And some will ignore violence and the threat of violence that created and sustained the sectarian statelet while simultaneously condemning any challenge to the state and its murderous proxies as 'terrorism'.

    What a joke.


  • Options
    #304
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Oh look, a false dichotomy. Let me see you subscribe to it yourself first: do you believe that no violence is ever justified, or do you believe that all violence is always justified?

    Its not a false dichotomy- if anything the IRA has more moral right exist than the British Army.

    So basically its not violence you have a horror of but violence used in the persuit of Irish freedom.

    Glad we have cleared that up.


  • Options
    #305
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Its not a false dichotomy- if anything the IRA has more moral right exist than the British Army.

    So basically its not violence you have a horror of but violence used in the persuit of Irish freedom.

    Glad we have cleared that up.

    Dont make me laugh. A terrorist group has more right to exist than a states official army?

    The IRA has no "moral right" especially in this day and age.


  • Options
    #306
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Its not a false dichotomy...
    Yes, it is.
    ...if anything the IRA has more moral right exist than the British Army.
    No, it doesn't.
    So basically its not violence you have a horror of but violence used in the persuit of Irish freedom.

    Glad we have cleared that up.
    The phrase you're looking for is "made that up".


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #307
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Yes, it is. No, it doesn't. The phrase you're looking for is "made that up".

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html

    The British Army is highly aggressive organization with a long history of using torture and deliberately targetting civilians.

    It is much, more worse than of the IRAs that have existed.


  • Options
    #308
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    The British Army is highly aggressive organization with a long history of using torture and deliberately targetting civilians.
    Unlike the various IRAs, who donate cuddly toys to orphanages.

    I'm not sure why you're determinedly ploughing down this whataboutery track, because it has nothing whatsoever to do with my point other than to try to deflect from it.


  • Options
    #309
    Bertie Woot
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 352 ✭✭Bertie Woot


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Yes, hence "you need us but we don't need you."

    Your dismissal of human life and limb is a little bit unnerving, obviously you know human life will be lost following unification but you view this loss of human life as less important then territorial change.

    I made no "dismissal of human life", merely pointed out that political change seldom comes about without sacrifice. The independent Republic you live in had a very violent birth if you look back at the Irish civil war.
    We have no business in NI, it is not ours to own and your people are not our people. I for one will be voting no.

    Northern Ireland certainly is yours to own. It is an inseparable geographical part of this island, and not so long ago the Irish government had a legitimate territorial claim on the six counties with articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution, which they relinquished to accommodate the GFA and peace in NI.

    The "your people are not our people" is a sentiment I wholeheartedly disagree with, as regardless of whether you are referring to Northern Unionists or Nationalists, we were all born on this island and are thus Irishmen, only some of us are of British ethnic and ancestral origin and wish to sustain that cultural connection.

    However, I respect your decision to vote "No" on reunification. That is your prerogative.
    junder wrote: »
    So the republic has paid all its debts then because unless it has then the economic argument is very much a 'runner'. Like you I lived through the troubles, dispite leaving school with no qualifications like you I went on to universty ( so my cognitive ablitys are fine thank you, howeve since my only access to the Internet is through my phone, writing long convoluted posts can be a little labourious) however I a little more faith in my community and rather then turn my back on it I followed the progressive unionist approach.

    I haven't turned my back on my community, I want to see them open their eyes and realise that the UUP and DUP have effectively abandoned them and do not care about them. The only Unionist politician I ever liked and had any faith in or respect for was David Ervine of the PUP. Whilst not in support of UVF violence I even voted for him once in the 90's, as his vision for peace and progressive Unionism was much more imaginative and appealing than the usual monotonous guff the traditional Unionist parties were mumbling.

    It's important to remember that Adams and McGuinness also attended David's funeral; paying their respects to a deceased Loyalist, who like Gusty Spence, made a very significant contribution to the Loyalist ceasefires and achieving peace in NI. Gusty Spence even attended the funeral of a dead IRA man and wrote his widow a letter of condolence. He also encouraged Loyalist prisoners to read Irish history and learn the Gaelic language whilst in Long Kesh.

    And blaming your phone on your dyslexia is a shrewd move.

    Mood: impressed.
    You talk about my culture being protected and yet cite Gerry Adams as some sort of guarantor of this protection and yet his party has been instrumental in denying Irish orange men the right to parade in thier own capital city. When the Dublin and Wicklow orange lodge can parade in thier own city free from the threat of intimidation, then come back to me about my culture being protected.
    And yes I would lose my job as I am employed by the mod, can't see them continuing my contract if I no longer live in the UK

    It's true that Sinn Fein need to make more effort to practice what they preach. They assure Orangemen that they shall be permitted to parade in a UI, but do very little to stem the annual riotous behaviour of the Ardoyne hoodlums.

    Your job may require you to relocate if an accommodation to continue to employ you in a reunified Ireland was not possible, but let's cross that bridge when you come to it. At least you haven't yet called me a Lundy, a sell-out and a traitor. Which is nice.


  • Options
    #310
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Bertie Woot wrote: »
    Northern Ireland certainly is yours to own.
    Why?
    It is an inseparable geographical part of this island...
    And Poland is geographically inseparable from Germany.


  • Options
    #311
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Was it the UDA or the UVF that at one time was playing with the idea of adopting Ulster Nationalism?

    It was mainstream unionism that supposedly considered a UDI back in the 1980's.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #312
    johnnydeep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭johnnydeep


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I bought it. Why didn't you answer the question?
    and if I shoot your family and **** you out who owns it then


  • Options
    #313
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Bertie Woot wrote: »
    I made no "dismissal of human life", merely pointed out that political change seldom comes about without sacrifice. The independent Republic you live in had a very violent birth if you look back at the Irish civil war.



    Northern Ireland certainly is yours to own. It is an inseparable geographical part of this island, and not so long ago the Irish government had a legitimate territorial claim on the six counties with articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution, which they relinquished to accommodate the GFA and peace in NI.

    The "your people are not our people" is a sentiment I wholeheartedly disagree with, as regardless of whether you are referring to Northern Unionists or Nationalists, we were all born on this island and are thus Irishmen, only some of us are of British ethnic and ancestral origin and wish to sustain that cultural connection.

    However, I respect your decision to vote "No" on reunification. That is your prerogative.



    I haven't turned my back on my community, I want to see them open their eyes and realise that the UUP and DUP have effectively abandoned them and do not care about them. The only Unionist politician I ever liked and had any faith in or respect for was David Ervine of the PUP. Whilst not in support of UVF violence I even voted for him once in the 90's, as his vision for peace and progressive Unionism was much more imaginative and appealing than the usual monotonous guff the traditional Unionist parties were mumbling.

    It's important to remember that Adams and McGuinness also attended David's funeral; paying their respects to a deceased Loyalist, who like Gusty Spence, made a very significant contribution to the Loyalist ceasefires and achieving peace in NI. Gusty Spence even attended the funeral of a dead IRA man and wrote his widow a letter of condolence. He also encouraged Loyalist prisoners to read Irish history and learn the Gaelic language whilst in Long Kesh.

    And blaming your phone on your dyslexia is a shrewd move.

    Mood: impressed.



    It's true that Sinn Fein need to make more effort to practice what they preach. They assure Orangemen that they shall be permitted to parade in a UI, but do very little to stem the annual riotous behaviour of the Ardoyne hoodlums.

    Your job may require you to relocate if an accommodation to continue to employ you in a reunified Ireland was not possible, but let's cross that bridge when you come to it. At least you haven't yet called me a Lundy, a sell-out and a traitor. Which is nice.

    Maybe i have dyslexia as well either way this is a politics thread not a grammar one, nor does grammar denote intellect, I have met many intelligent people who can niether read nor write.
    Gusty did indeed encourage UVF men to read up on history and politics which is why billy Hutchinson and daivd ervine became such prominate politicans but the only reason he learnt gealic and encourages the learning if gealic was so he could understand what the ira men where talking about and not some romantic recognition of an Irish idenity, an idenity s reject by the way.
    Interesting that you use the term ' relocation ' a term not unfamiliar in usage when republicans are talking about unionists. Not a bridge I am willing to cross in the event of a united ireland ever happening. I want hard and fast facts and figures, for a start, relocate where exactly? And what about all those other people who like me are employed in the public sector, are the going to have to 'relocate' to. Fully aware of who attended daivd ervine a funeral as I was there as well


  • Options
    #314
    Bertie Woot
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 352 ✭✭Bertie Woot


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Why?

    See post 309.
    And Poland is geographically inseparable from Germany.

    No sh*t, Sherlock. What next? Hitler was a Nazi?


  • Options
    #315
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Would you condemn people who join the British Army as much as you would condemn people who join the Real or Continuity IRAs?
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Oh look, a false dichotomy. Let me see you subscribe to it yourself first: do you believe that no violence is ever justified, or do you believe that all violence is always justified?

    Instead of deflecting oscarBravo (like you always do), do kindly answer a question posed to you for once.


  • Options
    #316
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Bertie Woot wrote: »
    I made no "dismissal of human life", merely pointed out that political change seldom comes about without sacrifice. The independent Republic you live in had a very violent birth if you look back at the Irish civil war.
    I wasn't alive at the time so I'm personally absolved. Needless to say I wouldn't have supported it back then if I was.
    Bertie Woot wrote: »
    Northern Ireland certainly is yours to own. It is an inseparable geographical part of this island, and not so long ago the Irish government had a legitimate territorial claim on the six counties with articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution, which they relinquished to accommodate the GFA and peace in NI.
    Says who? You? NI does not belong to us. It's not ours, it belongs to the people of NI. And even if they do want to join with us we don't have to accept them.

    As another poster has pointed out Germany is inseparably connected to Poland, does Germany have a right to Poland? Does France have a right to Germany? Hell does the UK have a right to France now that they are inseparably connected? Tbh your argument borders on the ridiculous and is perilously close to falling over.
    Bertie Woot wrote: »
    The "your people are not our people" is a sentiment I wholeheartedly disagree with, as regardless of whether you are referring to Northern Unionists or Nationalists, we were all born on this island and are thus Irishmen, only some of us are of British ethnic and ancestral origin and wish to sustain that cultural connection.
    Ethnically Irish is not nationally Irish.

    [/QUOTE]


  • Options
    #317
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    junder wrote: »
    So basically what your saying is its a united ireland or else

    In my opinion, it is the only workable solution to bring lasting peace.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Bollox. Violence will happen because of one thing: some people will react to the British presence on this island with violence, and other people will claim to abhor that violence while simultaneously justifying it by claiming that it's because of the British presence rather than because of the perpetrators of violence.

    Again, I live in the 'real world' where violence happens. No amount of climbing up onto the high moral ground has ever solved a conflict. I couldn't care less what your moral stance on violence is btw, it offers no solutions.


  • Options
    #318
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Ethnically Irish is not nationally Irish.

    To define someone's nationality one must take into account one's ethnicity, self-identification (be that identity right or wrong, but then again one must be sensitive and aware of what another's nationalistic and political leanings might be), cultural heritage. It is not always based on place of birth.

    Citizenship is really only an accurate indicator of one's place of birth or country of residence. You cannot base someone's nationality, heritage..etc, exclusively on citizenship.


  • Options
    #319
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    To define someone's nationality one must take into account one's ethnicity, self-identification (be that identity right or wrong, but then again one must be sensitive and aware of what another's nationalistic and political leanings might be), cultural heritage. It is not always based on place of birth.
    Do we? Why? An ethnic African who holds Irish citizenship is Irish. A British or American citizen who is ethnically Irish is British or American. It's really that simple.


  • Options
    #320
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Do we? Why? An ethnic African who holds Irish citizenship is Irish. A British or American citizen who is ethnically Irish is British or American. It's really that simple.

    No, it really is not 'that simple', but as I said, there are many ways to define it.


  • Options
    #321
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    In my opinion, it is the only workable solution to bring lasting peace.



    Again, I live in the 'real world' where violence happens. No amount of climbing up onto the high moral ground has ever solved a conflict. I couldn't care less what your moral stance on violence is btw, it offers no solutions.

    The first part of your post is clear evidence that you do not Infact live in the real world, Infact it's a good indicator that you Infact live in a world of fantasy.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #322
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    johnnydeep wrote: »
    and if I shoot your family and **** you out who owns it then
    I do. Were you planning to answer my question at some point?
    Bertie Woot wrote: »
    See post 309.
    Would that be the post where you yourself pointed out that the people of the Republic of Ireland voted overwhelmingly to rescind our territorial claim on Northern Ireland?
    No sh*t, Sherlock.
    No sh*t, indeed. And yet, you'll continue to peddle the kindergartenesque idea that Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland should be a single country because they share a landmass, while avoiding the rather self-evident point that the world is chock-full of countries sharing landmasses.
    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    Instead of deflecting oscarBravo (like you always do), do kindly answer a question posed to you for once.
    The question is irrelevant to the topic. Its only purpose is, ironically, deflection.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    In my opinion, it is the only workable solution to bring lasting peace.
    That closed-mindedness is part of the reason that a workable solution is so elusive.
    Again, I live in the 'real world' where violence happens. No amount of climbing up onto the high moral ground has ever solved a conflict. I couldn't care less what your moral stance on violence is btw, it offers no solutions.
    Your moral stance offers only one solution, and only violence in the stead of that solution. That leaves no room for negotiation; it's simply an ultimatum: do it my way or people will keep dying.


  • Options
    #323
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    No, it really is not 'that simple', but as I said, there are many ways to define it.
    That's really the only way to define it. I remember hearing a story about two Jews in revolutionary France. When they asked what the revolution would give them as Jews one of the leaders told them "as Jews we give you nothing but as Frenchmen we give you everything." And I think that's a really nice way to run a country. Protestant or Catholic once you are a citizen you are an Irishman, regardless of race, creed, ethnicity, or politics.


  • Options
    #324
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Protestant or Catholic once you are a citizen you are an Irishman, regardless of race, creed, ethnicity, or politics.

    I'm not disagreeing with you, I was merely pointing out how complex it is to define one's nationality, especially in the context if they do not identify with the country and state of which they are citizens.


  • Options
    #325
    Bertie Woot
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 352 ✭✭Bertie Woot


    junder wrote: »
    Maybe i have dyslexia as well either way this is a politics thread not a grammar one, nor does grammar denote intellect, I have met many intelligent people who can niether read nor write.

    I was pulling your leg, you daft eejit.
    Gusty did indeed encourage UVF men to read up on history and politics which is why billy Hutchinson and daivd ervine became such prominate politicans but the only reason he learnt gealic and encourages the learning if gealic was so he could understand what the ira men where talking about and not some romantic recognition of an Irish idenity, an idenity s reject by the way.

    Bullsh*t. Gusty wanted Loyalists to recognize the fact that that as well as being British they were also Irish, and he had a great knowledge of Irish history and an appreciation of past Irish Nationalist leaders, scholars and the Gaelic language. Gusty was not your average brainless Loyalist, he was a working class man of learning and he respected the enemy.
    Interesting that you use the term ' relocation ' a term not unfamiliar in usage when republicans are talking about unionists. Not a bridge I am willing to cross in the event of a united ireland ever happening. I want hard and fast facts and figures, for a start, relocate where exactly? And what about all those other people who like me are employed in the public sector, are the going to have to 'relocate' to. Fully aware of who attended daivd ervine a funeral as I was there as well

    Try to express your thoughts one at a time instead of a jumbled mish-mash as it makes replying to them somewhat difficult. "Relocate" is a term I use, and many Irish people south of the border may also have to relocate post reunification and for whatever reason.

    Could you quit being selfish for just a moment and consider the future of the island and all of its inhabitants as opposed to yourself?


  • Options
    #326
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    I'm not disagreeing with you, I was merely pointing out how complex the issue of nationality is.
    It's not that complex, if you are a citizen you are a citizen. If you are not a citizen you are not a citizen. Problem solved. What's the problem anyway Northerners are allowed citizenship.


  • Options
    #327
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It's not that complex, if you are a citizen you are a citizen. If you are not a citizen you are not a citizen. Problem solved. What's the problem anyway Northerners are allowed citizenship.

    I wasn't referring to the north, just in general. My opinion is basically that citizenship is not synonymous with nationality.


  • Options
    #328
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    I wasn't referring to the north, just in general. My opinion is basically that citizenship is not synonymous with nationality.
    Well on that point we disagree.


  • Options
    #329
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    oscarBravo wrote: »

    That closed-mindedness is part of the reason that a workable solution is so elusive. Your moral stance offers only one solution, and only violence in the stead of that solution. That leaves no room for negotiation; it's simply an ultimatum: do it my way or people will keep dying.

    Not close mindedness at all. I have cconsidered all the other proposals and they fail the sustainability test.

    Stating that 'violence will happen' is not a threat. People have and will contnue to die because of the British presence here. That is the simple fact of life that we are discussing the solution to. It isn't me that is issuing ultimatums or threatening violence.
    Please treat what is being said with an element of maturity.


  • Options
    #330
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Well on that point we disagree.

    That is fair enough.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #331
    johnnydeep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭johnnydeep


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I do. Were you planning to answer my question at some point?
    .

    how long do I have to violently maintain ownership till it becomes mine.
    you bought your house who gave the person who sold it the right to sell it


Advertisement