Towards a United Ireland

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

I know that republicans with never accept those things I hold dear in thier united ireland, the loyal orders, the flute bands, the connections to the British army.

Why do you care that they won't accept them as long as you get to do it?

junder wrote: »

saying that basically it doesn't matter what unionists think in the event of a united ireland.

In my opinion it's a waste of time trying to mollycoddle Unionists into accepting a UI. Imo the only people supporters of a UI should be trying to convince are non-PUL's to tip the balance and then, like every other incremental move, Unionists will just have to accept new realities whether they like it or not - a la Drumcree.

ManMade wrote: »

Are there any polls on (southern) Irish people's opinion of a united ireland?

Polls are a waste of time if they're a simple yes/no choice for a UI in a vacuum. If an well crafted road map to a UI was presented then maybe a poll would have some value.

FREETV

What's so great about being British or Irish for that matter?
What is the fundamental difference anyway and why kill and maim over very slight cultural differences and religion?

Bertie Woot

junder wrote: »

Your words, seems like your blaming us now considering myself and Gallag are the only regular unionist posters that's some feat, espically since boards is so well moderated (oh and GRMA, Iwasfrozen is not Actully a unionist).

Blaming you on what? I don't post here that often, have no clue who is Unionist or Republican, but recognise your attempt to obfuscate the issues and evade simple questions. If you can't address the topic and the questions I've posed to you, there is no point in rambling incomprehensibly.

Ironically since your are allegedly a unionist convert you could be an ambassador for your community, you could use your new found nationslist / republican viewpoint to explain why the unionist community feels the way it does to your new found friends

Another evasion technique. You are simply evading the questions because you do not have the ability to answer them.

as for dealing with republicans, I think you might find I have death with alot more then you have which is why I have the mindset I have now, I know that republicans with never accept those things I hold dear in thier united ireland, the loyal orders, the flute bands, the connections to the British army.

Inability to answer simple questions and express yourself articulately and coherently aside, you would also seem to have an erroneous take on Irish Republicanism. Mr Adams himself (who I'm no particular fan of) has expressed the sentiment that in a united Ireland Orange parades shall be permitted, and as part of Irish Republicanism's commitment to cultural diversity and tolerance for other ethnic traditions ...or words to that effect. Sinn Fein have even laid wreaths at the British war memorial in Belfast City Hall. McGuinness has shook hands with the Queen.

Do these acts not communicate tolerance and respect?

As for economics, well few years yet before you really start talking about that, the republic has a bail out to pay back yet, although its ironic that republicans use the argument about how senseless it is to have a border on a small island and then go on to support an independent Scotland.

They support Scotland's right to democratically choose independence, as indeed do Unionists. Irish Republicans are Nationalists and so are the Scottish "National" Party. The clue's in the name, hence their affiliation.

As for the united ireland men, I think the PIRA has long since desecrated that idology, although interestingly enough I am a descendent of Henry joy McCracken

The PIRA have been accused of abandoning the ideological purity of Wolfe Tone and the United Irishmen, and by actively targeting Protestants during their campaign.

Btw, you are not the only contemporary Unionist with Irish Republican ancestry.

COYW

An Coilean wrote: »

I would certainly support Unification, the border has never and will never make economic sense, it is to the detriment of both sides.

Why does it not make sense? How would the removal of the border improve the economic outlook in this country? What does N.I. have to offer and vice-versa? No pro-UI person has ever answered this question. Do you agree that the people up north would lose their NHS entitlements, for example? A UI could never sustain such a service. Also, it would not be possible to raise the dole in NI to the same level as it is in this country. So, are you going bring the dole in this country down to the same level as NI? How is a UI any more attractive in terms of FDI than the ROI currently is?

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I wouldn't. I'm quite happy to keep them out of Dáil Eireann, thanks very much.

I see what you mean. It would be a shame to pollute the amateur six figure salaried garbage that sit in our parliament with respectable, morally strong unionist people.

Personally, I would be more than happy to have a border poll. The people of NI should have theirs first and if they say 'No', which they will as they have sense, the issue should be put to bed for another generation at least. I think that many people in this country thought that we released our claim on that part of the UK with the GFA. I have no doubt that we would do so, if the chance came about.

marienbad

How about running our own part of the island efficiently and fairly before wanting more ?

OCorcrainn

It would be a shame to pollute the amateur six figure salaried garbage that sit in our parliament with respectable, morally strong people.

Sinn Féin TDs take the average industrial wage unlike the rest of them.

What politicians in the north would you deem respectable/morally strong?

FREETV

COYW wrote: »

Why does it not make sense? How would the removal of the border improve the economic outlook in this country? What does N.I. have to offer and vice-versa? No pro-UI person has ever answered this question. Do you agree that the people up north would lose their NHS entitlements, for example? A UI could never sustain such a service. Also, it would not be possible to raise the dole in NI to the same level as it is in this country. So, are you going bring the dole in this country down to the same level as NI? How is a UI any more attractive in terms of FDI than the ROI currently is?



I see what you mean. It would be a shame to pollute the amateur six figure salaried garbage that sit in our parliament with respectable, morally strong unionist people.

Personally, I would be more than happy to have a border poll. The people of NI should have theirs first and if they say 'No', which they will as they have sense, the issue should be put to bed for another generation at least. I think that many people in this country thought that we released our claim on that part of the UK with the GFA. I have no doubt that we would do so, if the chance came about.

Garbage who work for their own agendas and not the peoples. Selling to the highest bidder, brown paper bags and a swift handshake under the radar.
Time to throw out the garbage in Dail Eireann.

COYW

junder wrote: »

The Dublin and Wicklow orange lodge was invited by the Dublin city council to take part in the 2000 saint Patrick's day parade, the invitation had to be withdrawn because sun fein et all threatened counter demonstrations. The Dublin and Wicklow orange lodge has applied on several occasions since then to parade in their own city of Dublin, each time Sinn Fein et al has threatened counter demonstrations each time the Dublin and Wicklow has had to withdraw its application due to the fear of violence. These are Irish citizens applying to parade in not only their own capital city, but their own city full stop

Republicans don't sell republicanism because they have nothing to sell which respects or benefits unionism or any other culture to be honest.

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Sinn Féin TDs take the average industrial wage unlike the rest of them.

What politicians in the north would you deem respectable/morally strong?

Nonsense, they cost the tax payer the exact same as every other politician. Where the money goes after that is irrelevant to the tax payer. Their salary base is the same as any other TD.

Chuck Stone

COYW wrote: »

respectable, morally strong unionist people

Who voted scourge of the north, inciter to hatred, phony doctorate aquiring
Ian Paisley in as their leader/representative?

Who gerrymandered and frustrated the minority and preferred living with a brutal conflict than give an inch?

You are having a laugh.




*You'll note these are rhetorical questions so don't require an answer.

Bertie Woot

Research has shown that the health benefits of laughter are far-ranging. While more studies need to be done, studies so far have shown that laughter can help relieve pain, bring greater happiness, and even increase immunity:

http://stress.about.com/od/stresshealth/a/laughter.htm

Both Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness were acutely aware of the health benefits of laughter, and that's why they used to enjoy a good giggle together and were consequently branded "the chuckle brothers".

After 30 years of bitter conflict I used to love watching Ian and Martin have a good laugh.

Doublelime

Ireland is never going to be united because the uk will not give up their stolen land. They earn a lot of money from ni as Irish people shop there like fools.

gallag

Doublelime wrote: »

Ireland is never going to be united because the uk will not give up their stolen land. They earn a lot of money from ni as Irish people shop there like fools.

Check the British GDP, then get some estimates of the cross border surplus that N.I benefits from and also look at the deficit N.I runs annually, you will agree your statement makes you look silly.

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

If you are really interested in a unionist opinion why the need to apportion blame in your second post on this thread. Why do I need to ' prove ' anything. As to why I want No part in a united ireland ironically it's your very post that answeres your question for me, the mere fact that you feel the need to 'blame unionists' shows exactly the lack of respect for my community that I have come to expect from republicans, at the heart of all united ireland discussions is the idea that its all the unionist fault, no matter what it is, it's our fault. Hardly sound ground for a respectful discussion.

Who would you blame for the current peace? Those Unionists who said no, no, no and had to be dragged and are still being dragged into a normalised democracy?
N.I. failed and had to be rescued by the Irish and British governments (the British too, having to be dragged by death and violence to the table)
It cannot now function without the intervention and supervision of both governments. One of those governments has signalled by international agreement that it no longer has a strategic interest and is only there so long as Unionists are in the majority. The question is, do you want to be positive and proactive or do you want more kicking and screaming.

FREETV

A UI is only a matter of time, within ten to fifteen years perhaps.

marienbad

FREETV wrote: »

A UI is only a matter of time, within ten to fifteen years perhaps.

Can't see it myself. Come back in 50 years possibly.

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

Who would you blame for the current peace? Those Unionists who said no, no, no and had to be dragged and are still being dragged into a normalised democracy?
N.I. failed and had to be rescued by the Irish and British governments (the British too, having to be dragged by death and violence to the table)
It cannot now function without the intervention and supervision of both governments. One of those governments has signalled by international agreement that it no longer has a strategic interest and is only there so long as Unionists are in the majority. The question is, do you want to be positive and proactive or do you want more kicking and screaming.

Sure if that's the case

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

Sure if that's the case

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

The internet equivalent of whistling while Rome burns?

LordSutch

marienbad wrote: »

Can't see it myself. Come back in 50 years possibly.

By which stage the whole island might be different re the current context?

If the ROI rejoins the commonwealth then yes indeed that might ease the pain for Unionists to contemplate being run from Dublin instead of London!
But even then, the enormity of Dublin funding & policing a sometimes volitile Northern Ireland seems a bit more than a daunting prospect

Would they even consider dissolving Stormont in favour of the Dail ? ? ?

Would they be comfortable substituting God Save the Queen (with Amhrán na bhFiann)? What about the national flag too?

OK I hear you say, if its just about the bloody Anthem & the flag then we will change them, specially if its means that the Unionists
will turn their backs on the the rest of the UK (and join this State instead), but is that reality? I think not.

Will be interesting to see what happens with Scotland in 2014, and whether they leave the Union or not!

OCorcrainn

Happyman42 wrote: »

The internet equivalent of whistling while Rome burns?

I believe Nero was playing the lyre when Rome was burning, I don't think he was whistling.

Happyman42

OCorcrainn wrote: »

I believe Nero was playing the lyre when Rome was burning, I don't think he was whistling.

I should have written 'fluting'

COYW

An Coilean wrote: »

I would certainly support Unification, the border has never and will never make economic sense, it is to the detriment of both sides.

COYW wrote: »

Why does it not make sense? How would the removal of the border improve the economic outlook in this country? What does N.I. have to offer and vice-versa? No pro-UI person has ever answered this question. Do you agree that the people up north would lose their NHS entitlements, for example? A UI could never sustain such a service. Also, it would not be possible to raise the dole in NI to the same level as it is in this country. So, are you going bring the dole in this country down to the same level as NI? How is a UI any more attractive in terms of FDI than the ROI currently is?

So can anyone address the points I have made above?

maccored

Your question is based on a confused understanding. No-one is suggesting northern ireland just joins the south. a new all ireland governmental system would have to be incoroporated, so there would no longer be a republic of ireland governmental system, nor would there be a northern one. A brand new, all inclusive network would have to be arranged.

How could it prove the economy? What, by not having a border and not having different currencies, and having one body responsible for the whole country rather than two different ones? You cant see how getting rid of the duality will save money? Isnt it obvious it would cost less and there'd be less wastage? Nevermind tourism. You'd get a massive influx of tourists if Ireland once and for all showed it was at peace.

Personally, I think something like that would have to happen over multi-generations, and not just in a few decades. Plus it would need to be organised properly.

COYW wrote: »

So can anyone address the points I have made above?

maccored

what went on in the north wasnt caused by religious differences or 'slight' cultural differences. It was caused by greed and the inability to share equally. the whole religion aspect was the biggest wool over the eyes ever.

FREETV wrote: »

What's so great about being British or Irish for that matter?
What is the fundamental difference anyway and why kill and maim over very slight cultural differences and religion?

maccored

People posted their opinions. thats what you do on a discussion forum. If you dont agree with their opinions, theres no point going in a huff and complaining about it. Doesnt get away from the fact that youre doing precisely what bertie woot predicted.

junder wrote: »

And yet the first posts on the thread which where by republicans / nationalists was a dig at Iwasfrozen and post saying that basically it doesn't matter what unionists think in the event of a united ireland.

An Coilean

COYW wrote: »

Why does it not make sense? How would the removal of the border improve the economic outlook in this country? What does N.I. have to offer and vice-versa? No pro-UI person has ever answered this question. Do you agree that the people up north would lose their NHS entitlements, for example? A UI could never sustain such a service. Also, it would not be possible to raise the dole in NI to the same level as it is in this country. So, are you going bring the dole in this country down to the same level as NI? How is a UI any more attractive in terms of FDI than the ROI currently is?

The removal of the border would be beneficial in several ways.

As has been mentioned, it would see the duplication and waste inherrent in having two civil services, two sets of emergency services, two health systems, two legal systems, two education systems etc etc removed.

In terms of FDI, we currently have two juristictions wasting resources trying to compete with each other to attract the same jobs to their side of the border. Every job won for Belfast is a job lost for Dublin and vice versa. Instead of working against each other North and South should be working together to attract jobs to Ireland, in a UI any job brought to Ireland be it in Belfast or Cork is to the benefit of the islands economy as a whole.

Having two currencies, two tax systems, two sets of state agencies dealing with business is a waste of resources and to the detriment of business across the island.

Everyone North and South recognise the need for cross border co-operation, a United Ireland just brings this to its logical conclusion.
There is no economic basis for partition on this island, it is clearly to the economic detriment of both sides.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

The removal of the border would be beneficial in several ways.

As has been mentioned, it would see the duplication and waste inherrent in having two civil services, two sets of emergency services, two health systems, two legal systems, two education systems etc etc removed.

In terms of FDI, we currently have two juristictions wasting resources trying to compete with each other to attract jobs to their side of the border. Every job won for Belfast is a job lost for Dublin and vice versa. Instead of working against each other North and South should be working together to attract jobs to Ireland, in a UI any job brought to Ireland be it in Belfast or Cork is to the benefit of the islands economy as a whole.

Having two currencies, two tax systems, two sets of state agencies dealing with business is a waste of resources and to the detriment of business across the island.

Everyone North and South recognise the need for cross border co-operation, a United Ireland just brings this to its logical conclusion.
There is no economic basis for partition on this island, it is clearly to the economic detriment of both sides.

That's more of an argument for Ireland to rejoin the UK, just saying. You're going to have to do better then an argument that brings it's logical conclusion somewhere else.

"The removal of the border would be beneficial in several ways.

As has been mentioned, it would see the duplication and waste inherent in having two civil services, two sets of emergency services, two health systems, two legal systems, two education systems etc etc removed.

In terms of FDI, we currently have two juristictions wasting resources trying to compete with each other to attract the same jobs to their side of the border. Every job won for London is a job lost for Dublin and vice versa. Instead of working against each other Ireland and Britain should be working together to attract jobs to Ireland, in a UK any job brought to the UK be it in London or Dublin is to the benefit of the archipelagos economy as a whole.

Having two currencies, two tax systems, two sets of state agencies dealing with business is a waste of resources and to the detriment of business across the archipelago."

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's more of an argument for Ireland to rejoin the UK, just saying.

I think we need to learn the historical lessons on this one, Irelands intrest was never served in the UK while we were a part of it, the part of Ireland that did stay in the UK has since become an economic basket case. The south may be bad, but the part of Ireland that is in the UK is much much worse, tell me again where the argument for joining the UK is?

Bertie Woot

LordSutch wrote: »

If the ROI rejoins the commonwealth then yes indeed that might ease the pain for Unionists to contemplate being run from Dublin instead of London! But even then, the enormity of Dublin funding & policing a sometimes volitile Northern Ireland seems a bit more than a daunting prospect

The 26 county Republic would be incorporating a further 6 counties with a 90 year turbulent history, for sure, and I can understand many Southerner's lack of enthusiasm. But whilst there is partition I can also understand many other Irishmen's desire for reunification.

Would they even consider dissolving Stormont in favour of the Dail ? ? ?

Unionists certainly wouldn't, even if the majority in NI did one day come out in favour of reunification.

Would they be comfortable substituting God Save the Queen (with Amhrán na bhFiann)? What about the national flag too?

They'd still want to sing the British national anthem and carry the Union flag in Orange parades in a united Ireland. In a pluralist post reunification united nation what harm can that do? It's just symbolism and the Union would be past tense.

OK I hear you say, if its just about the bloody Anthem & the flag then we will change them, specially if its means that the Unionists
will turn their backs on the the rest of the UK (and join this State instead), but is that reality? I think not.

A new Irish constitution, a new national anthem, and a new 32 county national flag is the best way forward. Unionists shall always associate the current Irish tricolour with the Provisional IRA, and that is regrettable. You must make Unionists feel at home and a part of the new Ireland, and changing the symbols of 'Irishness' of the past would be a practical way to provide accommodation which they feel comfortable with.

Will be interesting to see what happens with Scotland in 2014, and whether they leave the Union or not!

Despite the bluster from the SNP, Scotland's exit from the UK is unlikely.

maccored wrote: »

Your question is based on a confused understanding. No-one is suggesting northern ireland just joins the south. a new all ireland governmental system would have to be incoroporated, so there would no longer be a republic of ireland governmental system, nor would there be a northern one. A brand new, all inclusive network would have to be arranged.

Someone is on the ball.

How could it prove the economy? What, by not having a border and not having different currencies, and having one body responsible for the whole country rather than two different ones? You cant see how getting rid of the duality will save money? Isnt it obvious it would cost less and there'd be less wastage? Nevermind tourism. You'd get a massive influx of tourists if Ireland once and for all showed it was at peace.

True. One country on one island as opposed to the current two sets of governmental and economic infrastructure would enable a much more sensible and cost saving system of governance. The tourist boom to the economy, with people all over the world wanting to visit the long awaited new and reunified Ireland, and especially from America, would be huge.

Reunification shall provide dividends from many international sources, and I challenge Unionists to disagree.

Personally, I think something like that would have to happen over multi-generations, and not just in a few decades. Plus it would need to be organised properly.

My contention that Adams and McGuinness are not the appropriate reunification salesmen still stands. A new generation of Sinn Feiners who weren't associated with the 1968-1998 campaign, and whose records and reputations are pristine shall help to build bridges between Republicanism and Unionism.

Realistically, it may take generations for Irish reunification to come to the political fore, and even then, Unionists shall offer resistance, and even if the majority in the North do come out in favour of reunification in a referendum.

Ideally, I would like to see peaceful reunification, but only a fool would speculate that no more violence lies ahead.

marienbad

An Coilean wrote: »

I think we need to learn the historical lessons on this one, Irelands intrest was never served in the UK while we were a part of it, the part of Ireland that did stay in the UK has since become an economic basket case. The south may be bad, but the part of Ireland that is in the UK is much much worse, tell me again where the argument for joining the UK is?

I suppose you could say he is arguing economies of scale etc, just as we both joined the EU.

And one of the historical lessons we might want to learn is that what pertained in the 18th and 19th centuries need not happen in the 21st.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

I think we need to learn the historical lessons on this one, Irelands intrest was never served in the UK while we were a part of it, the part of Ireland that did stay in the UK has since become an economic basket case. The south may be bad, but the part of Ireland that is in the UK is much much worse,

In the past, that doesn't mean Ireland would suffer under a devolved federal UK. I'm not saying I want it I'm just pointing out the logical flaw in your argument.

An Coilean wrote: »

tell me again where the argument for joining the UK is?

It was your argument not mine:


"The removal of the border would be beneficial in several ways.

As has been mentioned, it would see the duplication and waste inherent in having two civil services, two sets of emergency services, two health systems, two legal systems, two education systems etc etc removed.

In terms of FDI, we currently have two juristictions wasting resources trying to compete with each other to attract the same jobs to their side of the border. Every job won for London is a job lost for Dublin and vice versa. Instead of working against each other Ireland and Britain should be working together to attract jobs to Ireland, in a UK any job brought to the UK be it in London or Dublin is to the benefit of the archipelagos economy as a whole.

Having two currencies, two tax systems, two sets of state agencies dealing with business is a waste of resources and to the detriment of business across the archipelago."