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Towards a United Ireland
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Bertie Woot wrote: »If you can't handle a word which effectively translates to 'protection for the British ethnic minority in a UI' thus enabling them to consent to a UI, you are not going to have a UI.
Im well aware of the definition of "sovereignty", and I haven't requested for the British gvt to be given "administrative power" in a UI. I have attempted to communicate the depth of distrust towards Irish Republicanism and the Dublin gvt that has traditionally lay at the core of Unionism, and made it clear that Unionists shall never enter a UI without some form of protection from the British gvt.
And you have communicated as much in a most forthright, thorough and utterley descriptive manner.:)
This is not being realistic not even close.Unionist concerns are not irrational or unjustified as you suggest, as there is a very real prospect of retaliatory discrimination for what happened to Nationalists in NI, and if we look at the way the Protestant population in the south was greatly reduced post partition, Unionists fears and concerns are grounded in reality.
You need a reality check and an enrolment on the program. By viewing my suggestion of a 'diplomatic intervention' by the British SOS for foreign affairs as unacceptable in the case of discrimination against the Unionist minority, you are essentially communicating to Unionism that this is a very real probability.
It's not going to be as simple as that, as the political parties in NI shall also have considerable input on procedure via their interests thus muddying the waters. Realistically, a federal Ireland, with Britain continuing to sustain involvement in the 6 counties in the transitional phase to full reunification is realistic, but until the Irish delegation accept an agreement with unequivocal guarantees and safeguards to protect the Unionist minority, and a provision for British governmental back-up in the form of urgent diplomatic relations between Dublin and London, there won't be an agreement that Unionists can ratify.
Everyone would require a lengthy enough settling in phase not just unionism should a united Ireland ever come to pass.I understand that you think the British shall just sign Unionists over, severe all diplomatic ties, and that shall be the end of it. It won't happen like that, and if there is any proposal that it shall happen like that, Unionists shall oppose it, and there shall be no reunification agreement that Unionism can back. Unionism shall require a lengthy transitional settling in phase, and that shall involve both governments working together.
Its clear your community have irrational fears not just about a potential a unified Ireland but more importantly about people down here in the south. You need to deal with those fears before anything else happens really.There are no irrational fears. There are fears born of bitter historical experience and expectations for the future. The British in Ireland have been bombarded, butchered and bombed. For 30 years they had their protestations on Republican violence completely ignored by the Provisional IRA and Sinn Fein, and have paid for their right to reside on this island in their own blood. They are not about to sacrifice what they regard as their homeland for some high risk venture into a united Ireland.
Then start being realistic.:)They want details. Realistic details, and on specifics pertaining to the adequate protection of their civil and religious liberties, their ethnic and cultural identity, and their right to live on this island free from violence, intimidation, discrimination and persecution. Unless the British and Irish delegations can deliver an agreement which satisfies Unionist's needs, reunification shall remain an unattainable pipe dream of Republican and Nationalist romantics.No-one really wants to give the UK a say in the future Republic.
But Unionists shall require something written into a reunification agreement which shall assure them that they are fully protected against potential discrimination and persecution, and my suggestion that British diplomatic intervention should form part of that agreement has been branded unreasonable and unrealistic.The GFA guarenteed certain things for unionists, e.g.
*The principle of consent and the consequential retention if NI's place in the UK
*The Stormont assembly
*Council of the isles
*Removal of articles 2/3
The GFA guarenteed certain things for nationalists, e.g.
*the mechanism for a United Ireland
*the removal of the "unionist veto"
*reform of police
*enforced power sharing
In any United Ireland there will be a similar negotiated settlement which will guarentee various things for both nationalists and unionists, one of which may a limited role for the British government.
This isn't 1922 when the views of nationalists in NI weren't taken into account. A future settlement will be like the GFA and the views of all will matter.
Im well aware of the above and of course all views will matter. But where in any of that does it say or allude too an obligation on Irelands behalf, post reunification, to issue Britain with a say in our affairs once this has happened. It doesnt.0 -
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i work for a company in the north. forgetting about religion the general view i get is that they would prefer things to stay as they are. i think they see all that is going on in roi and just think they are better off being governed by the uk. most people i talk to think the government down here are totally incapable
There's some truth in that.Ha Ha Bertie, just because you don't like my answer ! No need to get in a huff about it.
You are calling me ignorant on unionism and this from a guy who is afraid coming to the republic ! Kettle pot and black comes to mind .
I was a bit apprehensive the first time, but like all ROI virgins, my deflowering has been a revelation.And you have communicated as much in a most forthright, thorough and utterley descriptive manner.:)
This is not being realistic not even close.
Everyone would require a lengthy enough settling in phase not just unionism should a united Ireland ever come to pass.
Its clear your community have irrational fears not just about a potential a unified Ireland but more importantly about people down here in the south. You need to deal with those fears before anything else happens really.
Then start being realistic.:)
Im well aware of the above and of course all views will matter. But where in any of that does it say or allude too an obligation on Irelands behalf, post reunification, to issue Britain with a say in our affairs once this has happened. It doesnt.
It was foolish of me to expect someone who lives in the ROI and has had no experience of violent Irish Republicanism and Nationalist discrimination as an NI Protestant to understand Unionists and their very real, not irrational concerns.
I haven't given up on the Irish just yet. The Irish government relinquished the territorial claim and with Irish tax payers money built a Battle of the Boyne visitor centre in Drogheda to commemorate a battle which the Irish lost and which sustained British rule in Ireland for a further 231 years.
This bodes well for future flexibility.0 -
Nowhere. But it least it is clear that you are happy with a 50% + 1 vote for a UI and don't care about the lack of stability that will inevitably arise from a settlement that doesn't address the fears and aspirations of a large proportion of the population.
Let us all look forward to a stable, brighter future together
Bertie Woot wrote: »It was foolish of me to expect someone who lives in the ROI and has had no experience of violent Irish Republicanism and Nationalist discrimination as an NI Protestant to understand Unionists and their very real, not irrational concerns.
I haven't given up on the Irish just yet. The Irish government relinquished the territorial claim and with Irish tax payers money built a Battle of the Boyne visitor centre in Drogheda to commemorate a battle which the Irish lost and which sustained British rule in Ireland for a further 231 years.
This bodes well for future flexibility. 0 -
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Bertie Woot wrote: »You don't want a united Ireland, because you hate Protestants.
You're a hater!
:rolleyes:
I usually try avoid at all costs using the above emoticon is response to a comment, any comment, thought sometimes a comment is so ridiculous and off the mark in its nature that I feel its deserved.
Been a pleasure talking to you Bertie 0 -
:rolleyes:
I usually try avoid at all costs using the above emoticon is response to a comment, any comment, thought sometimes a comment is so ridiculous and off the mark in its nature that I feel its deserved.
Been a pleasure talking to you Bertie
You're the sort of Catholic Nationalist who would deny Loyalist bandsmen their cultural right to urinate on a Catholic chapel whilst heavily intoxicated.
You're the type of Catholic Nationalist who would object to a scheduled Orange parade down Dublin's O'Connell Street, with some Loyalist graffiti being ceremoniously daubed on the GPO.
It's Nationalists like you who would take issue with the Garden of Remembrance being bull-dozed and transformed into an Ulster Volunteer Force heritage and visitor centre.
Your bigotry knows no boundaries! 0 -
Bertie Woot wrote: »You're the sort of Catholic Nationalist who would deny Loyalist bandsmen their cultural right to urinate on a Catholic chapel whilst heavily intoxicated.
You're the type of Catholic Nationalist who would object to a scheduled Orange parade down Dublin's O'Connell Street, with some Loyalist graffiti being ceremoniously daubed on the GPO.
It's Nationalists like you who would take issue with the Garden of Remembrance being bull-dozed and transformed into an Ulster Volunteer Force heritage and visitor centre.
Your bigotry knows no boundaries!
:) 0 -
Bertie Woot wrote: »You're the sort of Catholic Nationalist who would deny Loyalist bandsmen their cultural right to urinate on a Catholic chapel whilst heavily intoxicated.
You're the type of Catholic Nationalist who would object to a scheduled Orange parade down Dublin's O'Connell Street, with some Loyalist graffiti being ceremoniously daubed on the GPO.
It's Nationalists like you who would take issue with the Garden of Remembrance being bull-dozed and transformed into an Ulster Volunteer Force heritage and visitor centre.
Your bigotry knows no boundaries!
And your the sort of convert who will piller the community he comes from just to fit in with his new political buddy's.0 -
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Bertie, I refuse to get into a debate about religion with you.
You appear to think that I have defended both the abuses of Catholic doctrine by the papacy which led to the creation of the Lutheran Church, and the abuse of children by some members of the clergy.
If you read back over my posts, you will find I have done neither - merely observed that religion can, - and has - been used very effectively in the past by various political/religious establishments as a factor in manipulating people, to achieve money, land, or power for those pulling the strings
Hence, one should not judge the Catholic Church, which, I again stress, is made up of all the people who profess that faith - not just the hierarchy - on the actions of a pope who abused his power centuries ago, or on those members of the clergy who either engaged in, or tried to cover up, horrendous child abuse.
Neither should one judge the Protestant churches on, for example, the attempted eradication of Catholicism in Ireland.
The truth is, both faiths have a great deal more in common than issues that separate them, and both have had individuals within them that went against the teachings of their religion, and sought to use that religion as a means of gaining personal power.
I am not blaming you personally for the malevolent and outrageous midememanours of peadophile Priests, Noreen. What I am saying is that on my my side of the border there seemed to be a deafening silence whilst all of this was going on, and that silence was reflected in the ROI.
Priests abusing their personal power was a worldwide phenomenon, and the solution can only come from the top ie. the Vatican, and by allowing Priests to marry, as it is my view that the Law of celibacy is responsible for the greater proliferation of child sex abuse within the RCC.And I believe that all Religion is organised - and, further - that to take such a path is extremely dangerous, amoral, and undemocratic.
The truth is, most laws are based on the ten commandments.
Hence, in a completely secular society, to remove all religious reference is to effectively tear up the rule book, and start anew, with laws being written from scratch.
History teaches us that in such a situation, those who gain power rarely do so for altruistic purposes.....
The ten commandments and indeed any other biblical teaching is what society based its moral code upon in the past. Ireland has moved on, and is becoming an increasingly secular state. Laws are increasingly created and based upon common sense, a sense of justice and fair play, as opposed to some 2000 year old scripture, and that is progress. Nothing wrong with religious doctrine so long as you don't make it your be all and end all.You rather clearly have no knowledge or understanding of what you are talking about.
I used to live in a parish where a paedophile priest was active - and a paedophile teacher also.
I know some of the victims personally, and am friends with some of their wives.
I knew those lads when they were children being abused - and, believe me, none of their friends had any inkling of what was going on, nor their parents either.
I even know one man whose elderly mother still doesn't know, because she is in frail health, and her family are afraid the shock would kill her.
I have witnessed more than one priest in tears on the altar while apologising for the actions of paedophile priests.
I have also witnessed people get up and walk out of mass in another parish where the priests sermon didn't reflect the feelings of the congregation.
But these stories don't get reported in the media.
They certainly don't. If I thought that paedophile Priests were actually shedding tears from a sense of guilt and remorse over their nefarious activities, and not self pity and shame about getting caught, I dare say the RCC might even possess the capacity to help to redeem itself.So, don't tell me what "ordinary, decent Catholics" think or feel - because you haven't a clue....
You've read some reports, not spoken to those involved, and certainly not spoken to the average Catholic about their feelings - and come to some very biased (and very offensive) conclusions about Catholics in general, all the while ignoring the fact that many people have left the church because of the events, while others choose to stay, and work for change. Still others abhor what has happened - but that doesn't change their beliefs, hence they remain true to their beliefs, while horrified that such abuse was possible.
But do feel free to continue on your biased, unfounded, and hate-filled rants - because Ireland is a free Country, and free speech is a right.
Long may it continue, and into a united Ireland, where paedophile Priests are a dark phenomenon of a distant past. I have no hatred for paedophiles, as they are beneath contempt, and what criticism I have made of RC doctrine is perfectly valid. I view the Roman Catholic faith like I view all religion; an opium for the people. Regrettably, the RC hierarchy laced your opium with some pretty toxic chemicals. The sooner you change your religious dealer, the better, Noreen.
Have you ever thought of converting to a religion whose clergy didn't have a predilection for children? Or perhaps even give up superstition altogether?
I used to sing "Jesus wants me for a sunbeam" at Sunday School, and I love that song to this very day, as it's a comedy classic. 0
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