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Towards a United Ireland
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But surely as someone who rubbished the earlier poll that went against what you believe you'll be rubbishing this one as meaningless as well for the same reasons?
Or is this one ok?
The only poll that matters will be the real one. the advantage this one had over the other ones is that it was preceeded by a month of information, discussion and debate allowing people to make an informed decision, rather than ringing someone up out of the blue and asking would they vote blind for reunification tomorrow.0 -
Crooked Jack wrote: »Google it man, there's a world of stuff out there on it.
Its not always about Googling stuff, as posters other than myself might also like to see the result, & here would be a good place to post it!
Looks and sounds like a Republican propaganda/fix anyway, so its totally meaningless.0 -
But surely as someone who rubbished the earlier poll that went against what you believe you'll be rubbishing this one as meaningless as well for the same reasons?
Or is this one ok?
This one was an election, ya know democracy. Unless democracy in this case does not suit you as the result was not what you wanted?0 -
Looks and sounds like a Republican propaganda/fix anyway, so its totally meaningless.
The vast majority of people in this area vote for nationalist parties and a poll shows they want a United Ireland.
A strange sort of fix. Not news at all really and hardly worth multiple posts on the topic.
Such polls are not all that important, but if a proper proposition for a United Ireland is put to people then they will vote in favour of it.0 -
I think the major issue with that poll was that it lacked a proper scientific basis of a poll. To get a proper indication of the feelings of a population then you would need to take proper samples of a proper cross-section of society.
All the poll has told us is that 95% of people who voted in this poll in Crossmaglen would likely vote yes to a United Ireland. It does not mean that 95% of people in Crossmaglen would vote yes, it does not mean that 95% of nationalists would vote yes.
Is it interesting for the people in the area? Yes. Is it useful as a barometer of nationalist sentiment in Northern Ireland? No.0 -
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I think the major issue with that poll was that it lacked a proper scientific basis of a poll. To get a proper indication of the feelings of a population then you would need to take proper samples of a proper cross-section of society.
All the poll has told us is that 95% of people who voted in this poll in Crossmaglen would likely vote yes to a United Ireland. It does not mean that 95% of people in Crossmaglen would vote yes, it does not mean that 95% of nationalists would vote yes.
Is it interesting for the people in the area? Yes. Is it useful as a barometer of nationalist sentiment in Northern Ireland? No.
But nobody is saying it is. This poll has only ever been marketed as the people of crossmaglen/creggan having their say. In that regard to say it lacked a proper scientific basis is wrong. Every house was canvassed three times. more than 2500 people, out of a possible 3000 put themselves on the register. There were debates and information evenings held to ensure everyone was making a fully informed choice.
The whole thing was over seen by independent and international monitors.
The argument that it's not a useful "barometer of nationalist sentiment in Northern Ireland" is a daft one because nobody is saying it is. People with an agenda are just using that argument to distract from the fact that the results returned a vote overwhelmingly in favour of reunification.
It is also a useful barometer of nationalist sentiment in South Armagh/North Louth.0 -
Speaking of polls
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/catholics-feel-alienated-from-uk-29324066.html
Basically people have little interest in the UK but feel a UI impractical at present.
Thinking something impractical is not the same as not having a desire for it.
The challenge for nationalists is to work on the practicalities. Unfortunately the main nationalist party SF are profoundly useless on practical matters and seem to have little appreciation that this is the main issue. I've no doubt that in a decade or so, when international economic turbulence is a memory, that better leaders will emerge.0 -
yes give it a decade or so and then start talking bout it and how it will work etc
nationalists never have or i dont think ever will have a loving for the uk,plain and simpleSpeaking of polls
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/catholics-feel-alienated-from-uk-29324066.html
Basically people have little interest in the UK but feel a UI impractical at present.
Thinking something impractical is not the same as not having a desire for it.
The challenge for nationalists is to work on the practicalities. Unfortunately the main nationalist party SF are profoundly useless on practical matters and seem to have little appreciation that this is the main issue. I've no doubt that in a decade or so, when international economic turbulence is a memory, that better leaders will emerge.0 -
Amen.0
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Reality check!
26 counties are in economic difficulty.
Can't afford the expense of 6 more!
The UK pour billions of British taxpayers pounds into Northern Ireland every year, indeed at this stage they may well feel they would be better off without it.
The reality is ROI is struggling to get out of the current economic mess, without taking on another basket case.
So irrespective of Nationalist aspirations etc., let reality prevail.0 -
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delthedriver wrote: »Reality check!
26 counties are in economic difficulty.
Can't afford the expense of 6 more!
The UK pour billions of British taxpayers pounds into Northern Ireland every year, indeed at this stage they may well feel they would be better off without it.
The reality is ROI is struggling to get out of the current economic mess, without taking on another basket case.
So irrespective of Nationalist aspirations etc., let reality prevail.
Ironically, this is about the furthest thing you could get from a reality check.
Bland, sweeping statement backed up with zero facts do not a reality check make.
The fact is while the brits are more than happy to tell the world what they put into the north they have so far refused to release any figures on what they take out of the north in terms of tax, so we dont know just how much revenue the north can generate.
Similarly, we dont know what financial effect reunification would have on the south because no southern government has carried out a proper examination of what reunification would be like.
There are countless issues to look in to and the first one would be the mind boggling amount of money saved by ending the absolutely flabbergasting amount of duplication and "international" red tape we have on the island.
How about how much international business and tourism interest could be generated in the country by marketing the new, united Ireland to the world.
What about Ireland enticing businesses to come here as one unit, rather than having two constituencies on the island competing with each other.
What about the rebirth of the border counties, where business is crippled by the ever present hassle of the border.
The reunification of the country is such a massive, all encompassing issue that this idiotic "duh, we cant, uh, like, afford it and stuff" argument carries absolutely no weight whatsoever.
There's your "reality check"0 -
Crooked Jack wrote: »Ironically, this is about the furthest thing you could get from a reality check.
Bland, sweeping statement backed up with zero facts do not a reality check make.
The fact is while the brits are more than happy to tell the world what they put into the north they have so far refused to release any figures on what they take out of the north in terms of tax, so we dont know just how much revenue the north can generate.
Similarly, we dont know what financial effect reunification would have on the south because no southern government has carried out a proper examination of what reunification would be like.
There are countless issues to look in to and the first one would be the mind boggling amount of money saved by ending the absolutely flabbergasting amount of duplication and "international" red tape we have on the island.
How about how much international business and tourism interest could be generated in the country by marketing the new, united Ireland to the world.
What about Ireland enticing businesses to come here as one unit, rather than having two constituencies on the island competing with each other.
What about the rebirth of the border counties, where business is crippled by the ever present hassle of the border.
The reunification of the country is such a massive, all encompassing issue that this idiotic "duh, we cant, uh, like, afford it and stuff" argument carries absolutely no weight whatsoever.
There's your "reality check"
I am sorry but that is not a reality check. You accuse the previous poster of making a ''bland sweeping statement backed up with zero facts'' and then you do exactly the same !
So where is your economic data for your assertions ?0 -
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Pie in the sky wish listing. You have no evidence to back any of this up and further uncertainty causes economic problems.Crooked Jack wrote: »Ironically, this is about the furthest thing you could get from a reality check.
Bland, sweeping statement backed up with zero facts do not a reality check make.
The fact is while the brits are more than happy to tell the world what they put into the north they have so far refused to release any figures on what they take out of the north in terms of tax, so we dont know just how much revenue the north can generate.
Similarly, we dont know what financial effect reunification would have on the south because no southern government has carried out a proper examination of what reunification would be like.
There are countless issues to look in to and the first one would be the mind boggling amount of money saved by ending the absolutely flabbergasting amount of duplication and "international" red tape we have on the island.
How about how much international business and tourism interest could be generated in the country by marketing the new, united Ireland to the world.
What about Ireland enticing businesses to come here as one unit, rather than having two constituencies on the island competing with each other.
What about the rebirth of the border counties, where business is crippled by the ever present hassle of the border.
The reunification of the country is such a massive, all encompassing issue that this idiotic "duh, we cant, uh, like, afford it and stuff" argument carries absolutely no weight whatsoever.
There's your "reality check"
Leave the country as it is. We're fine as we are.0 -
Indeed. And what do we get for propping them up? Nothing. We don't need their land, we don't need their labour, we don't need their capital. They have nothing to offer us but economic ruin and political uncertainty.What amount of money would be saved? What red tape? Ireland is already marketed to tourists as an island. Indeed, many tourists are unaware that there is even two countries on the island. You are grasping at straws here.
Business crippled on the border due to the existence of the border? I guess that's a convenient excuse, the real reason being the majority of the border is in the middle of nowhere. Try telling people in newry that the border cripples their town and they'll laugh in your face.
To suggest the economic costs and realities carry no weight whatsoever is such a laughable notion that it's tough to put in to words. If the pro-ui folk are going to try and dismiss that out of hand then the pro-union people have absolutely nothing to fear. The cost of unification is the biggest issue of all, to suggest that the people in the ROI could afford to prop up the 6 counties is representative of a serious detachment from reality.
To suggest that NI is some sort of tax cash cow for the UK is also rubbish. NI is far from a net contributor to the UK.
That was no reality check, just a bunch of empty rhetoric. Bland, sweeping and downright incorrect statements do not a reality check make.
No thank you.0 -
All completely missing the point of my post which was until all the information is layed out and examined we simply dont know. I dunno why i expected the usual reactionaries to be able to understand that.0
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We have a fair idea. The only thing these reports you suggest would do is confirm this. That's one reason he government isn't going to waste money on them.Crooked Jack wrote: »All completely missing the point of my post which was until all the information is layed out and examined we simply dont know. I dunno why i expected the usual reactionaries to be able to understand that.
But then there is also a psychological aspect. Reports are expensive and are generally only carried out on proposals which have a reasonable chance of being implemented. A UI is not on the table but commissioning a report would make it appear as if it was.0 -
Just a few other wee issues that need addressedI am sorry but that is not a reality check. You accuse the previous poster of making a ''bland sweeping statement backed up with zero facts'' and then you do exactly the same !
So where is your economic data for your assertions ?
Like I said, the whole point of my post was that nobody has all the information. Maybe you should calm down and actually read what I wrote. The example I gave were questions, not statements, and form just a tiny part of all the issues that need to be examinedWhat amount of money would be saved? What red tape? Ireland is already marketed to tourists as an island. Indeed, many tourists are unaware that there is even two countries on the island. You are grasping at straws here.
It most certainly is not marketed as one destination, which is one of the clearest examples of ideology taking precedence over common sense and everybody's best interests. We need one, all-Ireland tourist board and strategy. And like I said, that's one small example of one small section of one issue.Business crippled on the border due to the existence of the border? I guess that's a convenient excuse, the real reason being the majority of the border is in the middle of nowhere. Try telling people in newry that the border cripples their town and they'll laugh in your face.
Excuse? Nope, its just a reality. talk to anyone who has tried to set up an SME and they'll tell you how stifling it is. Two currencies, tax rates, problems with paying people in different jurisdictions, suppliers from different jurisdictions. Im not even a business person, this is just what I can recall from interviewing a number of people who tried to set up businesses in border areas. Even larger ones suffer. Grounded, for example, a fairly successful chain of coffee houses that started in Newry, had to abandon plans for opening up in Dundalk because of the problems it created.
As for people in Newry laughing? Ha! I work in Newry every day and I assure you, the border has done them no favours.
Firstly, the town of Newry barely benefits when people come up from the south (I assume youre referring to cross border shoppers) drop a few hundred euro in the sainsburys on the outskirts of the town and then head home.
Secondly, the people in Newry are not stupid. It wasnt so long ago that cross border trade was going the other way. You cannot build a successful, stable, local economy on the whims of an unpredictable currency market.To suggest the economic costs and realities carry no weight whatsoever is such a laughable notion that it's tough to put in to words. If the pro-ui folk are going to try and dismiss that out of hand then the pro-union people have absolutely nothing to fear. The cost of unification is the biggest issue of all, to suggest that the people in the ROI could afford to prop up the 6 counties is representative of a serious detachment from reality.
I never said they carry no weight. I said shouting "we cant afford it" (whoever 'we' refers to) when you simply dont know that, carries no weight. How about you actually read my post before leaping forward with the usual prattle.To suggest that NI is some sort of tax cash cow for the UK is also rubbish. NI is far from a net contributor to the UK.
Once again, didnt do that, I said we simply dont know. Did you read my post at all or did you just imagine something in your own head that you thought would be easier to defend against?
[/QUOTE]Iwasfrozen wrote: »Pie in the sky wish listing. You have no evidence to back any of this up and further uncertainty causes economic problems.
Leave the country as it is. We're fine as we are.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAIwasfrozen wrote: »Indeed. And what do we get for propping them up? Nothing. We don't need their land, we don't need their labour, we don't need their capital. They have nothing to offer us but economic ruin and political uncertainty.
No thank you.
Indeed. And what do we get for propping ourselves up? Nothing. We don't need our land, we don't need our labour, we don't need our capital. We have nothing to offer ourselves but economic ruin and political uncertainty.
This is how stupid these sorts of statements sound.0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »We have a fair idea. The only thing these reports you suggest would do is confirm this. That's one reason he government isn't going to waste money on them.
We have absolutely no ideaIwasfrozen wrote: »But then there is also a psychological aspect. Reports are expensive and are generally only carried out on proposals which have a reasonable chance of being implemented. A UI is not on the table but commissioning a report would make it appear as if it was.
And?0 -
As funny as I do try to be my statement stands. We're fine as we are.Crooked Jack wrote: »AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
That's not what I said. Let me post it again.Crooked Jack wrote: »Indeed. And what do we get for propping ourselves up? Nothing. We don't need our land, we don't need our labour, we don't need our capital. We have nothing to offer ourselves but economic ruin and political uncertainty.
This is how stupid these sorts of statements sound.
"Indeed. And what do we get for propping them up? Nothing. We don't need their land, we don't need their labour, we don't need their capital. They have nothing to offer us but economic ruin and political uncertainty.
No thank you."
To clarify "we" are the people from the South and "they" are the people from the North.0 -
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We certainly do. You do not need to be a top economist to realise a region dependent on government employment is going to be a liability.Crooked Jack wrote: »We have absolutely no idea
And this is a bad thing because of the reasons I've already given further it promotes instability in a very unstable region.Crooked Jack wrote: »And?0 -
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Crocked jack, you seem to think most of the savings would come from streamlining services and having one department instead of two etc, would this not lead to massive unemployment? And it is a pretty fair assumption that in the event of a UI there would be a bit of trouble so I cant see tourism flourishing.Iwasfrozen wrote: »We certainly do. You do not need to be a top economist to realise a region dependent on government employment is going to be a liability.
And this is a bad thing because of the reasons I've already given further it promotes instability in a very unstable region.0 -
These inconsistencies only come up because you're not thinking correctly.You may have no idea about these things crooked jack, such as NI's tax and the cost etc, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have no idea. You don't need official documents signed by Cameron himself to be able to understand these things, there is no point pretending that you do.
We hear all the time on here that the UK want rid of NI. You have now gone and took a complete U turn and decided that NI could be some sort of tax cash cow for the UK.
You claim the current system isn't working. If NI is supposedly some sort of cash cow that seems like a pretty good indication that it's working just fine.
Things are fine as they are, the straws you are grasping at to try argue otherwise are one indicator of that.
Start with the conclusion (in this case a UI, that's what everyone wants after all) and then work the logic back to any arbitrary factor that would be deemed beneficial to a UI. It doesn't matter if your logic makes sense or not because if challenged you can just say "we can't know".
Bonus points if you blame the British government for not being able to know.0 -
Crooked Jack,
You are the one who mentioned supporting data , yet you failed to supply any to either support your argument or counter mine. Duh! Perhaps you have no statistics to support your viewpoint .Duh! Not as smart as the average bear!
Think you are misled by the Nationalist/ SF bull****.:)0 -
You may have no idea about these things crooked jack, such as NI's tax and the cost etc, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have no idea. You don't need official documents signed by Cameron himself to be able to understand these things, there is no point pretending that you do.
Forgive me if I prefer actual evidence and genuine statistics over the word of some guy on the internet. Im funny like that.We hear all the time on here that the UK want rid of NI. You have now gone and took a complete U turn and decided that NI could be some sort of tax cash cow for the UK.
Once again, you are ignoring what I actually said and reacting to what you wish I said. Go back, read it again, come up with a proper response, not this straw man bullsh!t.You claim the current system isn't working. If NI is supposedly some sort of cash cow that seems like a pretty good indication that it's working just fine.
see aboveThings are fine as they are, the straws you are grasping at to try argue otherwise are one indicator of that.
Just because you're a fan of instability and the corruption of democracy doesnt mean everyone else is.I have yet to see a single backed up reason why unification makes sense. I don't mean on this thread, I mean ever. It's always the usual boring predictable rhetoric. "oh but it makes the place better", yet always totally unable to explain how and resorting to the old "we don't know". One would have thought if people argue so strongly for unification that they'd have at least some sort of reasoning to back it up.
It's on them to explain to everyone why we'd all be much better off, to say that so far they have failed miserably would be being kind.
This right here is exactly why I'm calling for the research to be done. The fact remains that there is a sizable section of the population in the north, not to mention a majority of people across the whole country, who want reunification. That desire is not going to go away. So do the work, lay out the facts and let people decide once and for all.
If you're so sure that partition is for the best then surely you'd have no problem with the governments investing some efforts in putting the issue to bed once and for all.
Just to flip your statement on its head, I have yet to see a single backed up reason as to why partition works. The last 100 years look like one long string of failures to me0 -
Crocked jack, you seem to think most of the savings would come from streamlining services and having one department instead of two etc, would this not lead to massive unemployment? And it is a pretty fair assumption that in the event of a UI there would be a bit of trouble so I cant see tourism flourishing.
Firstly, that was not a statement of fact, that was one suggestion about one part of one issue that needs examined so we have the facts.
Secondly, nobody is suggesting that reunification happens overnight. I would assume there would be a gradual merging or departments.
But again, my whole point is that all this needs to be examined. However, even suggesting that seems to get some backs up. interesting that.
As for the violence. I dont see it being a major issue. As per the GFA it wont happen until there is majority consent and furthermore, any loyalist paramilitary violence would surely fall well short of what we saw during the troubles given that they wouldnt have the state backing them any longer0 -
delthedriver wrote: »Crooked Jack,
You are the one who mentioned supporting data , yet you failed to supply any to either support your argument or counter mine. Duh! Perhaps you have no statistics to support your viewpoint .Duh! Not as smart as the average bear!
Think you are misled by the Nationalist/ SF bull****.:)
Just give me a second to get my face out of my palm here, it's really buried in there.
For the last time, go back and actually read my posts. Stop and think before replying.
The sole argument i have made is that there is no data because the brits refuse to release it and the southern government refuses to collate it.
I gave a few examples of what needs to be looked into. That is it.
I merely want the Irish people to be fully informed before forming an opinion on the issue. A few of the usual suspects seem to take issue with this and frankly I'm not surprised. After all, partition has never really been about consent or what's best for the people.
Now I know you're eager to hop on your keyboard and defend the criminal atrocity that was partition but please actually read what I have written before responding again.0 -
crookedjack
You are berating everyone for either misinterpreting you or not giving evidence to back up their position and then you come up with this gem !
'' I have yet to see a single backed up reason as to why partition works. The last 100 years look like one long string of failures to me ''
There are innumerable statistics easily available to all and sundry to show that that statement is , to put it mildly , grossly incorrect.
What appears to you to be a string of failures is over the 100 years a improvement in every area of life, from life expectancy through health concerns housing education literacy equality income. In fact you would be hard pressed to find an area that has not improved.
So your assertion just doesn't stand up. Now possibly what you meant to say was that we would have had these improvement and more without partition ? Well if that is the case then you need to provide evidence.0 -
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crookedjack
You are berating everyone for either misinterpreting you or not giving evidence to back up their position and then you come up with this gem !
Im berating people for making statements that have no factual basis. And I cant help it if people are in fact misrepresenting what I have written. I have no intention of explaining it again for the slow and the ignorant, it's there in writing.'' I have yet to see a single backed up reason as to why partition works. The last 100 years look like one long string of failures to me ''
There are innumerable statistics easily available to all and sundry to show that that statement is , to put it mildly , grossly incorrect.
What appears to you to be a string of failures is over the 100 years a improvement in every area of life, from life expectancy through health concerns housing education literacy equality income. In fact you would be hard pressed to find an area that has not improved.
The institutionalisation of sectarianism. The propping up of corrupt stormont governments. Direct rule. War. Collusion. Making an entire section of the community second class citizens. Refusal to accept peace when it was offered. Thankfully in the past 10 or 15 years things have improved but we still have significant inequality, just this month stormont passed a law which more or less states that one family's grief is more important than another's.
Failure after failure after failure. Like I said, the past 10-15 years have shown improvement but taken as a whole partition has been nothing short of an absolute disaster.So your assertion just doesn't stand up. Now possibly what you meant to say was that we would have had these improvement and more without partition ? Well if that is the case then you need to provide evidence.
These improvements happened across the entire western world in the same time frame. Are you seriously suggesting that without partition Ireland would have been the only place where they didnt happen?
In fact, the fact that you feel the need to give partition the credit for these shows just how flimsy the argument in favour of partition is.0
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