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Towards a United Ireland

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    #842
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Im berating people for making statements that have no factual basis. And I cant help it if people are in fact misrepresenting what I have written. I have no intention of explaining it again for the slow and the ignorant, it's there in writing.



    The institutionalisation of sectarianism. The propping up of corrupt stormont governments. Direct rule. War. Collusion. Making an entire section of the community second class citizens. Refusal to accept peace when it was offered. Thankfully in the past 10 or 15 years things have improved but we still have significant inequality, just this month stormont passed a law which more or less states that one family's grief is more important than another's.
    Failure after failure after failure. Like I said, the past 10-15 years have shown improvement but taken as a whole partition has been nothing short of an absolute disaster.



    These improvements happened across the entire western world in the same time frame. Are you seriously suggesting that without partition Ireland would have been the only place where they didnt happen?
    In fact, the fact that you feel the need to give partition the credit for these shows just how flimsy the argument in favour of partition is.

    I am not 'seriously suggesting'' anything - you are ! You are making bland overarching statements without substantiation.

    And even in your latest rebuttal every failure you list is from the North , does this mean that you do accept that the Republic has been a success ?

    And it makes no difference if some of the improvements have only come in the last 15 years , there are still within your 100 year time frame . And one could argue that they could and should have come sooner , but that is for another day.

    And as for these changes happening across the entire western world , leaving aside the former Yugoslavia and east bloc countries, so what ?


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    #843
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    marienbad wrote: »
    I am not 'seriously suggesting'' anything - you are ! You are making bland overarching statements without substantiation.

    I really am not and Im really bored now of constantly explaining my posts. Go back and read them carefully. If you still cant grasp the very simple point im making then perhaps this thread is a little to advanced for you.
    marienbad wrote: »
    And even in your latest rebuttal every failure you list is from the North , does this mean that you do accept that the Republic has been a success ?

    No, it does not, but even if it did, what difference would that make? If one part of the country is suffering that type of discrimination then the whole country has failed
    marienbad wrote: »
    And it makes no difference if some of the improvements have only come in the last 15 years , there are still within your 100 year time frame .

    So something fails utterly for 80 odd years, is slightly less of a failure for 10 or 15 years, but that makes everything ok?
    marienbad wrote: »
    And one could argue that they could and should have come sooner , but that is for another day.

    And as for these changes happening across the entire western world , leaving aside the former Yugoslavia and east bloc countries, so what ?

    So what? What do you mean so what? You asked for evidence explaining how things like literacy and longer life expectancy arent because of partition. I provided it by pointing out that these changes happened across the western world. What on earth are you on about?


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    #844
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    I think the main problem Crooked Jack has is his inability (or refusal) to accept the cultural divergence that has occurred over the past 100 years and is a result (mostly but not limited to) the troubles and how they have impacted on people's lives north of the border. That Ireland is now two separate countries we need to stop talking about unification and start talking amalgamation, as in the joining together of two separate distinct identities.

    Irish amalgamation is neither workable nor desirable. We have no need for Northern Ireland and they have nothing to give us. Further by taking them on the only thing we would be bringing on ourselves is economic failure and political instability.

    Let us extend the hand of friendship to NI or course. A state of animosity between neighbouring nations is never welcome but let us put to bed once and for all this petty historically based outdated irredentist dogma and step forward together into the new century.

    *looks at Crooked Jack's post*

    Oh who am I kidding, we'll never have peace.


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    #845
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    I really am not and Im really bored now of constantly explaining my posts. Go back and read them carefully. If you still cant grasp the very simple point im making then perhaps this thread is a little to advanced for you.



    No, it does not, but even if it did, what difference would that make? If one part of the country is suffering that type of discrimination then the whole country has failed



    So something fails utterly for 80 odd years, is slightly less of a failure for 10 or 15 years, but that makes everything ok?



    So what? What do you mean so what? You asked for evidence explaining how things like literacy and longer life expectancy arent because of partition. I provided it by pointing out that these changes happened across the western world. What on earth are you on about?


    Oh look they are all out of step with my Johnny !

    If at this stage everyone is misreading or misrepresenting your posts I think you might consider that at this stage it is your means of expression and interpretation that is at fault and not everyone's else's capacity for understanding.


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    #846
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    marienbad wrote: »
    Oh look they are all out of step with my Johnny !

    If at this stage everyone is misreading or misrepresenting your posts I think you might consider that at this stage it is your means of expression and interpretation that is at fault and not everyone's else's capacity for understanding.

    "everybody" is not. A handful of the usual unionist posters are attempting to portray what I said as something else.


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    #847
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    Best thing at this point is for Crooked Jack to have this thread all to himself.

    I for one could not be bothered to debate with someone who is so blinkered that they do not wish to see.

    Best wishes for the future Jack

    Del:)


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    #848
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    delthedriver wrote: »
    Best thing at this point is for Crooked Jack to have this thread all to himself.

    I for one could not be bothered to debate with someone who is so blinkered that they do not wish to see.

    Best wishes for the future Jack

    Del:)

    The best thing would be for people to actually read posts and address the issues in them, rather than making something up that's more convenient for them to defend against.


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    #849
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    The best thing would be for people to actually read posts and address the issues in them, rather than making something up that's more convenient for them to defend against.

    Try taking your own advice Jack, also stop pigeon holing posters. Just because we may not agree with you does not make us 'unionists'.

    Or is it all reduced to 'if you are not with us you're agin us'' ?

    Might I ask is this the key issue for you when it comes to voting ?


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    #850
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    marienbad wrote: »
    Try taking your own advice Jack, also stop pigeon holing posters. Just because we may not agree with you does not make us 'unionists'.

    No, it does not, but being in favour of the union with britain, which a number of people are, makes them unionists. I dont say it as a slur, just a matter of fact.
    marienbad wrote: »
    Or is it all reduced to 'if you are not with us you're agin us'' ?

    Grow up
    marienbad wrote: »
    Might I ask is this the key issue for you when it comes to voting ?

    No, the key issues for me would be things like finally putting an end to the endless cycle of violence Ireland has endured because of Britain's presence here.
    Also as someone who lives on the border reunification would make my life a whole lot easier, so that would be a big consideration when it came to voting.
    In terms of social inclusion, I feel completely and utterly alienated from all the "northern" Ireland bullsh!t that is shoved down your throat up here.
    The likes of UTV and BBC NI make me cringe. There's this insular, little islander mentality to them that just turns me. It's also infuriating when something happens in Dundalk or Donegal, somewhere that's jsut over the border, and these news outlets completely ignore it but then proceed to waffle about some crap going on in england.
    On top of all that I have listened to the economic arguments for a united Ireland and not only do they make sense, they are exciting, they sound like the type of thing that would really reinvigorate people and the country.
    The number one thing however, for me personally, is that I'm Irish and I dont appreciate being told what to do by a foreign government or patronised by the likes of Cameron. I want the Irish people to run their own affairs in a truly democratic state.


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    #851
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    No, it does not, but being in favour of the union with britain, which a number of people are, makes them unionists. I dont say it as a slur, just a matter of fact.



    Grow up



    No, the key issues for me would be things like finally putting an end to the endless cycle of violence Ireland has endured because of Britain's presence here.
    Also as someone who lives on the border reunification would make my life a whole lot easier, so that would be a big consideration when it came to voting.
    In terms of social inclusion, I feel completely and utterly alienated from all the "northern" Ireland bullsh!t that is shoved down your throat up here.
    The likes of UTV and BBC NI make me cringe. There's this insular, little islander mentality to them that just turns me. It's also infuriating when something happens in Dundalk or Donegal, somewhere that's jsut over the border, and these news outlets completely ignore it but then proceed to waffle about some crap going on in england.
    On top of all that I have listened to the economic arguments for a united Ireland and not only do they make sense, they are exciting, they sound like the type of thing that would really reinvigorate people and the country.
    The number one thing however, for me personally, is that I'm Irish and I dont appreciate being told what to do by a foreign government or patronised by the likes of Cameron. I want the Irish people to run their own affairs in a truly democratic state.

    So it would be the key issue for you then .

    By the way might I suggest once more that you take your own advice and trying growing up yourself. The inclusion of such or similar comments in most of your posts does not a rebuttal make and just means you are taken less seriously.


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    #852
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    Dev had two major obsessions, UI and making the whole island of Ireland Irish-speaking. We are as close to either objective today as we were when he was in his prime. UI is not going to happen in my time, my children's time or my grandchildren's time. If it becomes a serious issue a century from now I suspect that it won't be exercising me. One can have sympathy for those people who are wrong-footed by the drawing of borders, but in the absence of major population transfers, ( hardly an ideal solution, ) that is an inevitable state of affairs which exists throughout Europe. The important thing is that minorities are given due respect.
    The GFA was endorsed by Northern RCs, Northern Protestants, NI as a whole, ROI and Ireland as a whole. Can anyone cite a more overwhelming popular endorsement of any agreement in history? It's time to get on regardless with our jobs, our families, our recreations. It's time to live.


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    #853
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    No, it does not, but being in favour of the union with britain, which a number of people are, makes them unionists. I dont say it as a slur, just a matter of fact.
    If we lived in NI we would be unionists but a person who lives in the south can only ever be unionist if they call for the republic to rejoin the UK.


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    #854
    HemlockOption
    Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭HemlockOption


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    If we lived in NI we would be unionists but a person who lives in the south can only ever be unionist if they call for the republic to rejoin the UK.

    With the way things have turned out there are probably quite a number of those


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    #855
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Catholic homes petrol bombed last night, when are the psni gonna do something about this. You would have to wonder why they loyalists are getting away with all this carry on.


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    #856
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Catholic homes petrol bombed last night, when are the psni gonna do something about this. You would have to wonder why they loyalists are getting away with all this carry on.
    They're already working on it.
    Up to five petrol bombs were thrown at a home in the Short Strand area of east Belfast, police have said.
    Three petrol bombs landed at the rear of the premises in Strand Walk and two at the front during the attack, which occurred on Sunday at about 23:30 BST.
    No-one was injured and no damage was caused to the property at the bottom of the Newtownards Road.
    Police have asked for anyone with information about the incident to contact them.

    Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23030783


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    #857
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Catholic homes petrol bombed last night, when are the psni gonna do something about this. You would have to wonder why they loyalists are getting away with all this carry on.

    As disgusting as these attacks are I hope you are not trying to paint the picture that these types of attack are one way? You would have to wonder how the fountain estate in Londonderry is still under attack and the nationalists are getting away with it? To be fair to the police it must be pretty hard to get a conviction against the scumbags on both sides who risk the lives of innocents in these attacks, they would pretty much need to be caught red handed.


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    #858
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    They're already working on it.



    Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23030783

    If it was the nationalist side you can guarantee homes would be raided and people lifted already.


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    #859
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    If it was the nationalist side you can guarantee homes would be raided and people lifted already.
    I highly doubt that. The PSNI need court orders to search houses and they can only get that when they have evidence.


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    #860
    COYW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭COYW


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    If it was the nationalist side you can guarantee homes would be raided and people lifted already.

    In an active democracy, which NI is now and SF are part of, the police have to build up cases against these people before they can raid homes and makes arrests.


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    #861
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    COYW wrote: »
    In an active democracy, which NI is now and SF are part of, the police have to build up cases against these people before they can raid homes and makes arrests.

    The psni are made up of ex ruc members, actually its a very high number.


    http://insideireland.ie/2012/10/23/comment-and-opinion-exposing-and-closing-the-psnis-revolving-door-80786/


    There is numerous officers been suspended and fired because of corruption, it is anything but democratic in its handling.


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    #862
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Al Jazeera offers a different perspective

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7W1NSo3uIkY


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    #863
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    junder wrote: »
    Al Jazeera offers a different perspective

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7W1NSo3uIkY

    According to that the issue is the unionists rights to carry the union flag as an expression of their identity (about 1 min in). Who is stopping unionists from carrying flags? theres shedloads of them in that video alone. The idea of 'standing up' for rights is terribly shady when in reality they havent lost any rights. the only thing they lost was the idea of controlling of those who werent loyalist. thats a good thing.


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    #864
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Loyalists need to cop on and stop feeling sorry for themselves.


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    #865
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    I'd like to see someone actually properly question these loyalist spokespersons like that woman in the encampment.

    'I feel my future and my son's futures has been sold out'.

    How exactly? Who sold it out?

    Emm..

    'My fear is that the young people will feel the need to take up arms'

    Against who and to what ends?

    Ehhh...


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    #866
    tdv123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    Carlos Roca wrote: »
    I'd like to see someone actually properly question these loyalist spokespersons like that woman in the encampment.

    'I feel my future and my son's futures has been sold out'.

    How exactly? Who sold it out?

    Emm..

    'My fear is that the young people will feel the need to take up arms'

    Against who and to what ends?

    Ehhh...

    To try and drag us back into the dark days of the 70' 80's & 90@S


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    #867
    MFdaveIreland
    Registered Users Posts: 588 ✭✭✭MFdaveIreland


    I'm curious why people need to attach their lives to a flag, ??


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    #868
    dulpit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,950 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    MFdaveIreland wrote: »
    I'm curious why people need to attach their lives to a flag, ??

    This could be a simplistic answer, but I assume it's more about what the flag symbolises than the flag itself, you know?


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    #869
    MFdaveIreland
    Registered Users Posts: 588 ✭✭✭MFdaveIreland


    true enough dulpit!,
    more important things in life all the same , suppose depends on your outlook ,


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    #870
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    dulpit wrote: »
    This could be a simplistic answer, but I assume it's more about what the flag symbolises than the flag itself, you know?

    They really then should focus and be vocal about what the flag symbolises rather than the flag itself.


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    #871
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    Something I have been wondering, would the cnr community consider taking ownership of the UK in a hypothetical situation where the UK is in every metric a better country to live? I'll try to explain what I mean, we can all agree that 2013 UK is vastly different from the UK that shot protesters on the streets of londonderry/derry and this is in no small part due to the actions of non violent republicanism, they have helped (along with many others) shape the UK into a liberal, forward thinking, multicultural society that is scared to say boo to a woman in a burka. A modern UK while not yet perfect, is a country that you could be proud of and going forward it could get even better as shown lately with voting not to follow the Americans into war for the first time and that action forced diplomacy from all party's and avoided war, it was probably the first time I seen a begrudging respect from many in here.

    In a purely hypothetical seniero where the UK continued to improve and the ROI stagnated or went backwards (not saying this is the case or likely, just hypothetical! !!) Would you still want a united Ireland? Or would you embrace the UK you and your for fathers helped to mould?


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