Towards a United Ireland

Iwasfrozen

Happyman42 wrote: »

It's a lot more recent than that if you'd open your eyes, the flag beligerence isn't even a throwback because that suprematist thinking is still deep in the pores. Just because they aren't allowed away with it anymore, because of the GFA, doesn't mean that it has disappeared.

He never mentioned the flag issue and neither did I, you're the only one who brought that up.

Happyman42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

He never mentioned the flag issue and neither did I, you're the only one who brought that up.

As an example of the same kind of thinking occuring today. :rolleyes:

Happyman42

pablomakaveli wrote: »

But how will a UI make things anymore peaceful? A UI would bring about a far worse situation than the current one.

I don't think so because by the time it gets here, most will have been convinced or will be willing to give it a go.
I don't want a UI without fundamental changes in the way we are governed. I think Unionists have a lot to offer to a new concensus and country. Yes there will be diehards, but where will support for them come from in a practical way. It's a much more difficult world to move arms around in and with Britain/America hostile to them and eager to see a UI work, it would be very difficult to sustain any campaign.

junder

johnnydeep wrote: »

unionist fault - somebody breaks into your house robs you and throws you out and wont leave.you are down on your knees that's bad enough, they spend the next 5 hundred years kicking you down every time you try to get up. they do this with the support of the biggest richest army in the world.
you have never been a paramilitary. but presumably know plenty did you report these and there activities to the police.
you are not sectarian or racist. so presumably you are not a member of the orange order or do not attend any of their events.
you are lawful, hopefully you will remain so and be a productive and happy member of a 32 county republic of ireland

Presumably? Really? exactly how do you 'presume' that I would know anybody involved in a paramiltary group. Not a member of the orange order but am in the apprentice boys, so am
I sectarian, do you know me in pers

Gilbert Grape

junder wrote: »

Presumably? Really? exactly how do you 'presume' that I would know anybody involved in a paramiltary group. Not a member of the orange order but am in the apprentice boys, so am
I sectarian, do you know me in pers

Cut the bull****,of course you know someone that has been or is involved in some form,same can be said for myself and a lot of other people.If your in the apprentice boys,whenever yous are marching in Derry,i've witnessed yourselves spit and shout sectarian abuse at bystanders and worse.And by the way i have plenty of friend's from the protestant side.I my self was brought up catholic until i caught myself on that religion has a lot to answer for in the world.Children of both sides should be growing up together and going to school with each other for any hope of proper peace to have a chance,we are no different from each other we are just the same and have the same problems.

junder

johnnydeep wrote: »

unionist fault - somebody breaks into your house robs you and throws you out and wont leave.you are down on your knees that's bad enough, they spend the next 5 hundred years kicking you down every time you try to get up. they do this with the support of the biggest richest army in the world.
you have never been a paramilitary. but presumably know plenty did you report these and there activities to the police.
you are not sectarian or racist. so presumably you are not a member of the orange order or do not attend any of their events.
you are lawful, hopefully you will remain so and be a productive and happy member of a 32 county republic of ireland

Presumably? Really? exactly how do you 'presume' that I would know anybody involved in a paramiltary group. Not a member of the orange order but am in the apprentice boys, so am
I sectarian, do you know me in person or are you presuming that I am
Sectarian?

junder

Gilbert Grape wrote: »

Cut the bull****,of course you know someone that has been or is involved in some form,same can be said for myself and a lot of other people.If your in the apprentice boys,whenever yous are marching in Derry,i've witnessed yourselves spit and shout sectarian abuse at bystanders and worse.And by the way i have plenty of friend's from the protestant side.I my self was brought up catholic until i caught myself on that religion has a lot to answer for in the world.Children of both sides should be growing up together and going to school with each other for any hope of proper peace to have a chance,we are no different from each other we are just the same and have the same problems.

So what your saying is that you know people from paramilitary backgrounds, did you report them? Have you witnessed me spitting or abusing anybody or are you 'presuming' again. But hey you know what your talking about because apparently you have Protestant friends

SoulandForm

http://thebritishresistance.co.uk/guest-writers/2240-ulster-and-the-new-loyalist-anti-politics-phenomenon

"It may be as inconceivable to Ulster’s burgeoning new middle class as it is to most English people but many here in Ulster would far rather have a modest lifestyle and a strong loyalist culture than a highly paid job, big house and a weak loyalist culture! This is what few can grasp about the Ulster Protestant mindset. If it’s a choice between economic progression and our flag, the flag will win, every time! Our flag transcends and is above mere politics, it is a sacred representation of our historical/cultural and religious heritage and identity.

When we see the union flag we are emotionally connected as it represents the blood of our forefathers who defended it in every corner of the world. It also represents our honour and our faith, that's why most of our churches are the resting places of old military union standards. Our flag, even an old one, is to us, akin to a Holy relic that many would, without hesitation gladly sacrifice their life for, or for that matter, kill for!"

SoulandForm

Holy relics are kinda Roman Catholic or Orthodox are they not? Not very Protestant that.

pablomakaveli

Happyman42 wrote: »

I don't think so because by the time it gets here, most will have been convinced or will be willing to give it a go.
I don't want a UI without fundamental changes in the way we are governed. I think Unionists have a lot to offer to a new concensus and country. Yes there will be diehards, but where will support for them come from in a practical way. It's a much more difficult world to move arms around in and with Britain/America hostile to them and eager to see a UI work, it would be very difficult to sustain any campaign.

I dont think they'll ever be convinced. They haven't even warmed slightly to the idea of a UI since 1922 and i can't see that changing much in the next 100 years or even beyond that.

GRMA

junder wrote: »

Presumably? Really? exactly how do you 'presume' that I would know anybody involved in a paramiltary group. Not a member of the orange order but am in the apprentice boys, so am
I sectarian, do you know me in person or are you presuming that I am
Sectarian?

Of course you know members of a paramilitary group. You are in the biggest one yourself, the British Army, a group responsible for immense suffering and death. And you are a member of the Apprentice boys, and are on record as being a supporter of the PUP a group with concrete links to the UVF and Red Hand Commandos. They haven't gone away and are still active in all kinds of crime from murder, to drug dealing, to assault, intimidation etc etc. In fact the PUP voted in 2010 to remain affiliated with those groups despite both the leader and deputy leader resigning over the links with the UVF after they carried out a fully sanctioned murder.
http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/09/29/pup-to-debate-cutting-paramilitary-ties-this-evening/

Now, as loyalists go, you may be a decent head, but it is very easy to see how collusion happened if the likes of you with your political views and connections are allowed to be in the BA. But then again that was the point of Ulsterization.

A republican version of you, with the opposite views and connections that you have, would not get within an arses roar of the Irish Defense Forces.

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Of course you know members of a paramilitary group. You are in the biggest one yourself, the British Army, a group responsible for immense suffering and death. And you are a member of the Apprentice boys, and are on record as being a supporter of the PUP a group with concrete links to the UVF and Red Hand Commandos. They haven't gone away and are still active in all kinds of crime from murder, to drug dealing, to assault, intimidation etc etc. In fact the PUP voted in 2010 to remain affiliated with those groups despite both the leader and deputy leader resigning over the links with the UVF after they carried out a fully sanctioned murder.
http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/09/29/pup-to-debate-cutting-paramilitary-ties-this-evening/

Now, as loyalists go, you may be a decent head, but it is very easy to see how collusion happened if the likes of you with your political views and connections are allowed to be in the BA. But then again that was the point of Ulsterization.

A republican version of you, with the opposite views and connections that you have, would not get within an arses roar of the Irish Defense Forces.

A republican version of me? The British are not paramiltary, it's miltary, again you presume who or what I know, moreover since I am not involved in anything illegal, why should'nt I be allowed to be a member, just because my views are at odds with yours does not make them any less valid. However when I joined the army I made a promise to The state. I take my vows seriously

Happyman42

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I dont think they'll ever be convinced. They haven't even warmed slightly to the idea of a UI since 1922 and i can't see that changing much in the next 100 years or even beyond that.

Then you aren't watching very closely...lipservice is being paid to the old ideologies by political dinosaurs, while, mostly, cross border relationships are being developed in a very healthy and quiet way. There is the odd abberation like Sammy Wilson on cross border roads, but extremists like Wilson would be feeling under threat from moderates and is just trying to appeal to the last bastions of intolerance to save himself electorally.
I don't know where you live but if you lived where I do, on the border, then you would see just how much relationships among moderates are developing. What must not happen is stagnation and political impasse, for into that void will come the extremists. The process must keeping moving to a stable conclusion, it isn't complete yet, and more and more the border is becoming a nuisance to the 'everyday'.

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

A republican version of me? The British are is paramiltary, it's miltary, again you presume who or what I know, moreover since I am not involved in anything illegal, why should'nt I be allowed to be a member, just because my views are at odds with yours does not make them any less valid. However when I joined the army I made a promise to The state. I take my vows seriously

Gusty Spence is on record as saying that he saw his murder of Matilda Gould, a widow of 77, as being a continuation of the oath he took to protect the Crown when he entered the British Army. Of course he had previously being brutalized during his time serving in the BA during its dirty war in Cyprus.

SoulandForm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/27/brutality-british-forces-1950s-cyprus

This is why people serving in the British Army is the last thing that Northern Ireland needs and they have a strong tendency to bring the whole thing home with them.

GRMA

Do apprentice boys take vows?

SoulandForm

GRMA wrote: »

Do apprentice boys take vows?

No they dont have oaths but you have to confirm that you are a Protestant and I think also that you support the Crown. In fairness they are by far the least sinister of the Loyal Orders. I dont think its right to compare them to the Orange and the Black.

pablomakaveli

Happyman42 wrote: »

Then you aren't watching very closely...lipservice is being paid to the old ideologies by political dinosaurs, while, mostly, cross border relationships are being developed in a very healthy and quiet way. There is the odd abberation like Sammy Wilson on cross border roads, but extremists like Wilson would be feeling under threat from moderates and is just trying to appeal to the last bastions of intolerance to save himself electorally.
I don't know where you live but if you lived where I do, on the border, then you would see just how much relationships among moderates are developing. What must not happen is stagnation and political impasse, for into that void will come the extremists. The process must keeping moving to a stable conclusion, it isn't complete yet, and more and more the border is becoming a nuisance to the 'everyday'.

Better cross border relations are to be welcomed but still mean nothing. Ive met lads from a unionist background and even though they could be considered moderate being part of a UI is still a repulsive idea to them just as much as having the Republic rejoin the UK would be to people south of the border.

The way forward for the process is for NI to focus on developing on its own as a more inclusive society where people view themselves as Northern Irish instead of defining themselves as British and Irish.

pablomakaveli

GRMA wrote: »

Of course you know members of a paramilitary group. You are in the biggest one yourself, the British Army, a group responsible for immense suffering and death. And you are a member of the Apprentice boys, and are on record as being a supporter of the PUP a group with concrete links to the UVF and Red Hand Commandos. They haven't gone away and are still active in all kinds of crime from murder, to drug dealing, to assault, intimidation etc etc. In fact the PUP voted in 2010 to remain affiliated with those groups despite both the leader and deputy leader resigning over the links with the UVF after they carried out a fully sanctioned murder.
http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/09/29/pup-to-debate-cutting-paramilitary-ties-this-evening/

Hysterical nonsense. He could judge you as having links to dissidents given your history of supporting the release of dissident prisoners and playing down dissident acts.

SoulandForm

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Better cross border relations are to be welcomed but still mean nothing. Ive met lads from a unionist background and even though they could be considered moderate being part of a UI is still a repulsive idea to them just as much as having the Republic rejoin the UK would be to people south of the border.

The way forward for the process is for NI to focus on developing on its own as a more inclusive society where people view themselves as Northern Irish instead of defining themselves as British and Irish.

The British have always used sectarianism to control and govern the north of Ireland, and despite what ever nice words they may mouth from time to time, they are not going to stop now.

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

Gusty Spence is on record as saying that he saw his murder of Matilda Gould, a widow of 77, as being a continuation of the oath he took to protect the Crown when he entered the British Army. Of course he had previously being brutalized during his time serving in the BA during its dirty war in Cyprus.

I am not gusty spence

pablomakaveli

SoulandForm wrote: »

The British have always used sectarianism to control and govern the north of Ireland, and despite what ever nice words they may mouth from time to time, they are not going to stop now.

And the forging of an inclusive Northern Irish identity would help end this. Even though there's no reason to incite secterianism anyway because that only makes life difficult for everyone again.

GRMA

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Hysterical nonsense. He could judge you as having links to dissidents given your history of supporting the release of dissident prisoners and playing down dissident acts.

Whats this?

I'm not a supporter of any group with links to paramilitaries, unlike our friend junder.

As I said, if there was a republican version of him with similar links to republicanism or republican groups, or historically sectarian catholic marching groups I wouldn't think they should be allowed to join the army.

You see no issue with someone like junder being in the BA? He might be alright but its people from that background which led to collusion.

Happyman42

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Better cross border relations are to be welcomed but still mean nothing. Ive met lads from a unionist background and even though they could be considered moderate being part of a UI is still a repulsive idea to them just as much as having the Republic rejoin the UK would be to people south of the border.

The way forward for the process is for NI to focus on developing on its own as a more inclusive society where people view themselves as Northern Irish instead of defining themselves as British and Irish.

Which doesn't solve or even address the constant barrier to complete peace. It's just kicking the can down the road, it will not work.
As to the Unionists you know, I'll bet they never thought that things would have moved as far as they did since the GFA. We are in a process, a process we stop or retard at our peril. We have a responsibility and that is the imperative.

pablomakaveli

GRMA wrote: »

Whats this?

I'm not a supporter of any group with links to paramilitaries, unlike our friend junder.

As I said, if there was a republican version of him with similar links to republicanism or republican groups, or historically sectarian catholic marching groups I wouldn't think they should be allowed to join the army.

You see no issue with someone like junder being in the BA? He might be alright but its people from that background which led to collusion.

Under your old Wolfe Tone account i remember you playing down a dissident planted bomb in Derry since it was only placed at the car park behind the bank if i remember correctly.

Or this thread. You say you dont agree with them but yet youre almost defending their position in that thread.

Again its a bit unfair to make serious accusations like that when applying the same reasoning to you we could level similiar accusations.

As a serving member of the BA as i may not agree with his beliefs but as long as he doesnt act on them or acts in a sectarian manner i have no problem with him being in the BA. You leave all that crap at the door when you join the army or you'll find you wont be in it for long.

pablomakaveli

Happyman42 wrote: »

Which doesn't solve or even address the constant barrier to complete peace. It's just kicking the can down the road, it will not work.
As to the Unionists you know, I'll bet they never thought that things would have moved as far as they did since the GFA. We are in a process, a process we stop or retard at our peril. We have a responsibility and that is the imperative.

But why has this process have to move towards a UI? You seem to think that once we get a UI all our problems will just melt away. The process is a peace process. A process for creating peace in NI.

Happyman42

pablomakaveli wrote: »

But why has this process have to move towards a UI? You seem to think that once we get a UI all our problems will just melt away. The process is a peace process. A process for creating peace in NI.

It doesn't have to be, that is for those who want it to convince the others. But a new arrangement has to be arrived at. The status quo is too precarious and will not hold indefinetly, as I said, it is already breaking down on the fringes. For instance, what if Unionists are right and the IRA is indeed waiting in the wings? Is that a chance you are willing to take? The stakes and the price is very high.

pablomakaveli

Happyman42 wrote: »

It doesn't have to be, that is for those who want it to convince the others. But a new arrangement has to be arrived at. The status quo is too precarious and will not hold indefinetly, as I said, it is already breaking down on the fringes. For instance, what if Unionists are right and the IRA is indeed waiting in the wings? Is that a chance you are willing to take? The stakes and the price is very high.

Then what do you propose? If we're agreed that a UI is not necessary then surely its just a matter of working within the current situation to make it work.

SoulandForm

pablomakaveli wrote: »

And the forging of an inclusive Northern Irish identity would help end this. Even though there's no reason to incite secterianism anyway because that only makes life difficult for everyone again.

Its suits the British ruling class by keeping the living standards and wages of the working class down there (look at the levels of child poverty in the place) , by creating a source of violent and militant support for the its occupation and making the place an interesting sociological and in the past military test tube.

pablomakaveli

SoulandForm wrote: »

Its suits the British ruling class by keeping the living standards and wages of the working class down there (look at the levels of child poverty in the place) , by creating a source of violent and militant support for the its occupation and making the place an interesting sociological and in the past military test tube.

Thats just straying into CT nonsense. Especially when getting rid of NI would actually serve the British better than stoking a conflict that would cost them a lot.